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Comments
2- The affected 2002 models were in all probability manufactured in 2001. That would account for the year confusion. Do you believe everything you read on the Internet? There is no way to verify its accuracy.
3- How many complaints are duplicates or a repetition of the same problem. A quick peek at the NHTSA web site will confirm that the same people are complaining about the same problem. Most car mags and the few mechanics I spoke with seem to think that this is a non-issue. Until I see documented, undisputed proof I tend to agree with them.
4- Anyone how chooses to believe that there is a prevalent sludge problem has the option to purchase any other vehicle they wish to own. However, history dictates that the percentage of owning a reliable car lies with Toyota. The choice is yours.
Please, you made your point it's now time to put this thing to rest.
petl, you bring up good points and since this isn't the appropriate venue I won't discuss it further with you. But I did want to point out that we are both right (or wrong) on the model years covered. The V-6's are covered through 2002, but the 4 cylinders are only covered through 2001. The link below is from the horses mouth (Toyota).
http://toyota.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/toyota.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp- .php?p_faqid=463&&p_sid=m94V12eh&p_lva=497&p_sp=c- F9zcmNoPTEmcF9ncmlkc29ydD0mcF9yb3dfY250PTcmcF9zZWFyY2hfdGV4dD1zbH- VkZ2UgZ2VsJnBfc2VhcmNoX3R5cGU9NCZwX3Byb2RfbHZsMT1_YW55fiZwX3Byb2R- fbHZsMj1_YW55fiZwX3BhZ2U9MQ%2A%2A&p_li=#engines covered
Use the keyword search here on the left for "sludge". Also be aware that the subject has been discussed at great lengths in many Toyota individual model discussions. You can go to individual discussions and use the "Search This Discussion" feature on the page bar - that will find specific posts for you.
At the top of each archived discussion there are instructions on how to request that it be reopened.
This will be the last post on the sludge issue in this discussion - thanks.
I'm curious what drivers are getting for actual mpg for their 2004 car.
I run synthetic which is more stable and provides overall better running conditions.
"Comsumer Reports call the 3,000 mile oil change a myth that's propagated by oil companies and quick lube shops". -----------Questions: -----Do YOU believe everything that is in print? ----Will "Consumer Reports" pick - up the cost of an "oil related repair" on your vehicle, if you follow their recommendations? ,/b>
Oil changes and opinions about Consumer Reports aren't the subject here.
Thanks.
All this talk about sludge- I feel like some people cant get past the past. My SPA notice for our former 2000 MY Camry showed model years from 1997-2001 being affected. FWIW, the 2.4L now used in the Camry is not at all related to the 1992-2001 2.2L 4 cylinder. Its very funny that this thread periodically reverts to the sludge issue. And if you'll notice, it almost immediately follows strings of posts that voice preference for the Camry.. such as doctorrocket's "this could be love post" in which he noted that he is very pleased with the trade of the 2001 Accord V6 in favor of his current 3.3L Camry SE (2004). Makes you wonder.....
~alpha
Much like when people want to "ding" the Accord, they'll bring up the transmission issue. And trust me, that issue is frequently used by Honda naysayers to make the case that Honda quality has fallen, despite the fact that the Accord is still one of the top rated cars in its class for many things, including reliability. The fact of the matter is, when companies like Toyota and Honda with the reputation for quality and reliability make such notable missteps, it's big news.
It may be frustrating for fans to see these issues brought up repeatedly and often blown out of proportion, but motownusa is correct in saying that those in the market for a used Camry or Accord have a legitimate interest in such discussions. These forums aren't limited to those who are interested mostly in the newest models.
According to some early information from Honda that was leaked and then pulled, some changes to the taillights are planned. They sounded pretty minor from the description, but some speculate that a more significant change along the lines of the Accord seen in the promo video for the SH-AWD system (announced for the 2005 RL) may be in store. If you haven't seen the video, the change looks to be that the existing taillight sections on the trunk are eliminated completely, which should effectively end the rather overblown Buick comparisons.
With Honda's 5 year model cycle, the model year for the "major" refresh would be 2006 if they follow recent patterns. So if the above mentioned taillight change makes it into production, I would expect it for 2006, not 2005.
That said, I very much enjoy this thread, and I hope people continue to make valuable contributions.
~alpha
But let's get back to the cars now ...
As Pat correctly surmised, I wasn't suggesting any particular group, and I wasn't "positing" anything about this forum. Of any of the various "vs. Accord" forums, the Camry forum seems to be the least likely to showcase that type of sniping from either camp.
Anyway, my point is that these topics will come up for whatever reason, either for legit discussion or for one-upmanship, and each major competitor has some issue that be brought up as criticism of it. Regardless of your feelings on it one way or the other, the sludge issue is Toyota's "cross to bear".
"I would also contend that this comparison thread is about 95% focused on the current and prospective models, and not so much a thorough resource/discussion event for used vehicles."
That was just one possible suggestion for why the topic may continue to come up, even though it's hardly breaking news. For that and other reasons, this issue will continue to come up in various areas of Edmunds that you frequent. And this will happen regardless of whether or not you approve or think it's fair.
I also had the impression at the beginning of my car search that the Camry was cheaper, but remember that Accord comes with a lot of standard features, like ABS and automatic transmission, while on the Camry's base price I had to add those options. So the base price can be deceptive. Perhaps the most notable thing was that the Camry had a $1500 rebate in FL but small holdback, while the Honda Accord had a $400 manufacturer-dealer incentive and larger holdback, and the Accord was down in sales this year 9% while the Camry was up by 3%, so Honda dealers were more likely to go below invoice. When it came down to the best prices for each car, I found that I had $19,200 OTD for the Accord LX w/ side airbags, and $20,450 for the Camry LE with side/curtain airbags, ABS, Auto transmission, and moonroof. So in all I'd say they came to about the same.
One thing that swayed me to the Camry was that the Accord LX is limited in options. For instance, they don't have the side/curtain airbags, and they don't have a moonroof. You have to upgrade to the EX to get those options.
While the Accord was more sporty and fashionable, I had the impression of feeling every bump in the road as if I were hugging the road. The Camry was smooth and quiet, and felt more detached from the road. I guess I value smooth and quiet over sporty . It all depends on which one you like and trust better as the better vehicle.
One thing I've noticed is that the hard ride of my Accord seems less harsh after 2500 miles. Maybe I'm just becoming accustomed to the ride or, more likely, the tires (which are properly inflated) and other suspension parts are breaking in and ride quality is better now.
Anyone who buys either the Accord or the Camry is making a wise choice in my opinion......Richard
In the Atlanta area I see weekly ads for the 04 Camry LE automatic for $15,900 while the Accord LX automatic is advertised for $18,500. That's quite a difference, teaser prices or not.
~alpha
So? Isn't that what an EX is? You get the equipment standard instead of as an option. It is the model you get if you want moonroof, etc..
The models are simplified. What would be the point of an EX if the same equipment was on the LX?
Some prefer Toyota's strategy, some Honda's. For what its worth, I feel the added features on this years Camry make it more attractive against the Accord, my favorite two of both being the SE 4 cylinder Camry and the EX 4 Accord. Pricing is now fairly identical. I think the Camry Standard has a big value advantage over the Accord DX, which is priced similarly once you add at least $1200 for the dealer to install air (which necesitates a hefty labor charge). I do like that all Accords for next year are alleged to have Side Curtain airbags standard- this is a big plus, and Honda should be applauded for it. Im also pretty impressed at Hondas response to the transmission issue, though that itself might give me pause if I was looking toward the V6 model. Regarding the V6 model, Id like to see stability control available as well.
my .02
~alpha
According to this site, the invoice on a 2005 Camry 5A with optional moonroof and side curtain airbags is $19,670, with an MSRP of $22,040. Thats quite a difference from the $21,000+ invoice figure you quoted above (Where'd you get your figures?). Again, according to this site, the invoice on a 2004 Accord 5A with optional side curtains is $21,009, and an MSRP of 23,290, as you state. So at invoice, there's about a $1500 difference between the Camry LE+moonroof+side curtains vs. the Accord EX w/side curtains. I agree, the Accord has more features, and personally, Id rather match up a Camry SE 4 against the more athletic Accord EX, but since you incorrectly quoted the prices for an LE, I thought I'd go there.
~alpha
~alpha
Again for reference, Edmunds.com shows the 2005 Camry LE 5sp auto (with the options of the Side Curtains, Power Moonroof and adding what carsdirect.com shows for floor mats- $112) of $19,782.
~alpha
Insinuating that I am fudging the numbers when all of them are on the internet for everyone to see isn't rude, but it is rather short-sighted.
I am afraid to park near a latest model Camry with those very wide rear doors which must be opened very widely to let anyone in the rear seat exit it. That pointy rear edge of the door is wicked to any car parked nearby.
~alpha
PS- People fudge numbers all the time, internet or not.