BMW 5-Series Sedans

nyccarguy · October 2002

I know certain parties will disagree with me (ahem, riez:), but that is a big chunk of change to be laying out for a used car (although you do get 2 additional years/more mileage of warranty coverage). There has to be a reason that car was brought back with only 4500 miles. Check with the service department records and see if the car was brought in for anything. There are a lot of shady characters out there. I'm a cynic by nature, so you really can't go by me:)

snagiel · October 2002

I agree with pap5 about the generic financial advice of letting someone else take the depreciation hit. But it seems that the discount is very minor. Honestly, I wouldn't pay more than $45k for that car. And I agree with nyccarguy as well: CPO or not, let the buyer beware with a used car.

mseals · October 2002

Guys, I agree with you that you must be leary of this car. You should take that approach to all used cars. That being said, if you can investigate this car as thoroughly as all used cars and nothing turns up, then this might be a decent deal. That being said, if you are going CPO you might be able to find a better deal out there, that will just have slightly more miles. Something that might have been traded in after one year of mild driving for a better model, i.e. 540i or a new 7 series. There are people out there who are not financially savy enough to know they should keep a car the term of the lease to get the best return, instead of trading for a new model.

ajrose · October 2002

Interesting responses, thanks. I am getting the records on the car but know this dealer pretty well. They would not buy into a vehicle that had a "history". Naive or not, I trust this dealer as much as one could trust any. This is my third car through them and my partner has purchased at least that many (he is picking up a new MB SUV for his wife today). Don't think they would like to lose us especially knowing they could put me into an 03 with little difficulty if they thought anything was wrong.

Any comments on change in ride and/or performance given the 18 inch wheels and tightened suspension. I think the 02 is close to a perfect blend of performance and ride quality. can the 03 really be better?

riez · October 2002

ajrose... Think you should be careful. Is a lot of money. Run a CarFax Report. Have an independent mechanic look at it. Pull the service records. Talk to the previous owner. But do NOT automatically reject it due to low miles.

Some cars are not a good fit. Maybe the person thought they'd like a manual but realize it wasn't for them? The 6-speed is NOT the world's lightest or smoothest tranny. And the clutch takes some getting used to. Just read the Edmunds comparison test from a few years ago. The 6-speed drove their drivers/reviewers nuts. They couldn't get a smooth launch or 1-2 shift.

I love my 540i6. But it did take me a couple weeks to get truly comfortable with the 6-speed. Now that I have, I can't imagine a 5-speed. Gotta have overdrive. And I'm used to fact she just isn't as silky smooth or light as my former 1996 Infiniti G20 (best darn manual tranny I've used).

Whatever else you do, take this particular CPO model out for a very long, thorough test drive. City and country. Fast and slow. In city traffic and on highway. Curves and interstate. See if it meets your needs and you can live with it.

nyccarguy · October 2002

Anybody read the C/D article on the Dinan M5? Pretty interesting specs:

0-60mph: 4.1 Seconds
0-100mph: 10 Seconds Flat
1/4 Mile: 12.7@113mph
Pulled a 0.87g on the skidpad
470hp@6900RPM
419lb/ft torque@5000RPM
Estimated top speed is 191mph!
$109,472 Proce Tag (ouch)

More impressive is the fact that Dinan says it took 2 years to develop. This car is naturally aspirated. They said the car drives and behaves like an M5, just a whole helluva lot faster.

The article also says Dinan offers a supercharger for the 540i... I wonder how close to stock M5 perfromance the Supercharged 540i gets?

I guess it is all wasted power for our congested roadways though.

snagiel · October 2002

Yes, it was an interesting read.

But, anyone who drives an M5 and feels like they need more power, well, they're nuts. God bless 'em, but they're nuts.

nyccarguy · October 2002

I definitely agree with you. As much as I love MORE POWER , I do realize that there is a certain limit to how fast we can drive here in the US. I'm sure a 530i SP would be perfect to satisfy my everyday driving needs. The 540i SP Would probably be great (ideal), but more power than I need or could handle. The M5 is a beautiful car with a meanacing look and tremendous abilities, I don't know if I could rationalize the price difference between the 540i SP & the M5.

I was talking to the President of the BMW dealership in Manhattan back in January. I asked him what his daily driver was. He said he drives a 540i SP 6 speed and that it was a relative bargain (referring to performance to dollar) compared to the M5.

nyccarguy · October 2002

But I did on the 3 series board. To the joy of some and the dismay of others, I'll be posting less and less here on TH. I resigned from my position on Monday. My company creates those really annoying credit card solicitations you get in the mail EVRY MONTH from Citibank. I'm leaving the advertising/direct mail industry and going to work for my father's business. He owns a Plumbing Supply and Hardware store in The Bronx. The business was started by my Great Grandfather (A Russian Immigrant) in 1900. I love the idea of working in a small business that I hope to take over one day down the road (My Dad is only 56 and nowhere near ready to retire). I hope to find (as many of you do who own your own businesses) that all the headaches and hard work are worth it at the end of the day because it is all for you. It is steady and I won't have to worry about getting laid off:) My last day of here is next Friday. I'm so excited! I can't wait!

pap5 · October 2002

C/D is not one of my car mag subscriptions (Libertarian political bent of Yates, Bedard, etc. too extreme for me), but I sometimes pick up a newstand copy. This was the case this week, due mainly to the Dinan M5 article. Such excess, totally unecessary -- boy, I'd love to have one! Anyway, for some time I've been toying with the idea of getting some light Dinan mods on my '01 530iASP. I've posted about this before, but haven't done anythinbg yet. Main objective is to improve responsiveness that is missing due to my wife's insistence on the slushbox. I visited my local dealer on Tuesday, and the service manager put together a package price on a Stage II engine software download, transmission download, cold air intake, and high flow throttle body. He took me out in an employee's '02 that had the software mods, and it seemed crisper than my car. I'd like to get some real owner feedback on the entire combo of products, but searches have turned up nothing concerning Dinan modified E39 6-cyls -- all the input seems to be from 540i owners only.

Does anyone have any experience or know of any references that would be useful? I know not to expect any dramatic performance gains, but want to get some of the edge that I feel is missing without a manual tranny. Any input would be appreciated.

nyccarguy -- Good luck on your new direction. Owning your own business is huge work, but everyone I've ever talked to says the level of satisfaction cannot be approached by working in anyone's bureaucracy, public or private. Your dad is only 3 years older than me, but my views on retirement are very different from his!

dabimmer · October 2002

Hope you do continue to post on the 5er board at least. It would be a shame to lose your
insight and knowledge, I have enjoyed your messages and info you impart. Keep the posts
coming and heaps of good luck and fortune in you new endeavor, you will do well.

snagiel · October 2002

Dinan's a respected name in the tuner business, that's for sure. But I'm skeptical about the inherently limited potential of the CAI and software downloads. These engines are already at their peak; even the Dinan website admits they can't extract any more horsepower with their software. Wheather you want to spend several hundred dollars on "sharper throttle response" is up to you, but I think it's a crock. Same for the CAI; I helped a guy install a non-Dinan CAI on his 528 a couple weeks ago, and not only was there no change in the power (by "butt dyno"), but the intake noise wasn't any throatier. I suspect the stock airbox isn't as restrictive as some might like to believe. I would think the most potential gains might be in the high-flow throttle body and/or a higher-flow exhaust system. But even those would probably yield maybe 10-15 hp, and/but would probably make the car louder.

This, of course, is just my humble opinion. If you detected enough improvement to warrant the costs, don't let me stop you. But be sure you're not just psychologically convincing yourself of a "crisper" behavior.

habitat1 · October 2002

$52,750 is no bargain for a 2002 540i 6-speed with 4,500 miles. You can easily meet or beat that price on a brand new 2003 through European Delivery, even including the gas guzzler tax.

As for the performance difference between a 2002 and 2003, I cannot comment directly, as I have not driven a 2003 540i. However, I can tell you that the handling difference between my former 2000 540i 6-speed and current 2002 M5 is significant. As a matter of fact, if I could only have one or the other - the added power of the M5 or the better handling of the M5 - I would probably choose the latter. Also, the 6-speed in the M5 is noticably smoother than the one in my previous 540i. So, if they have refined the 2003 manual transmission, that would also be a plus.

snagiel: Fully agree. I seriously doubt that many drivers have the driving skill to handle 80% of the power of the stock M5. I suspect that if a performance driving test were required of anyone buying a M3, M5, E55, and especially, a SL55, 90% of them would fail. At least with the M5, you get the BMW driving school thrown in.

riez · October 2002

habitat1... European delivery isn't for everyone, nor is it an option for many. Might not be a serious option for ajrose. Know I wouldn't want some of the hassles and time delays that come with ED. Plus not all dealers will readily deal on ED, just like some dealers won't deal on any BMW in their stock. (And the dollar has been falling against the Euro recently. So that Euro trip is now 15 percent more expensive due to exchange rate change.)

john01 · October 2002

Just returned home from a 100 mile test drive in a 2002 M5. Sterling Gray with black interior. It is a nice color and very subtle, whereas LeMans Blue screams for attention. Interior bits are pretty much the same, accept for the seats, which were very nice and tight. Now, why can't the other E39s have the lumbar on sports seat?

The shifter is quite stiff, not as fluid as the 530. It needs a firm hand, and cannot say I like it. It has a shorter throw, though. The steering is MUCH lighter than 530, even with the Sport mode switched on, but does FEEL quicker. The BMW rack and pinion has the edge on this one.

It sounds like a muscle car and screams like a muscle car. I have read many reviews where it was described as being too quiet. This thing had about 3,500 miles and positively screamed. The ride is much stiffer as well. It does not feel like a sedan, more like a highly strung sports car. There is body roll, but I would not change it, i. e. make it stiffer with aftermarket stuff. The ride is still acceptable, considering the handling capability it has, but anything more, it may be too much for a sedan.

I did a bit of back road driving and moved out to the unlimited section of the autobahn. Up to 3000 RPM at part throttle, I cannot say I feel much power, but past 3,000 and pedal to the metal, things happen very quickly. I tried redline acceleration from standing still and the almost went over the redline in the 1st and 2nd gear, 3rd was a bit slower, but only by about 1/2 second. It is loud, even cruising, again compared to my 530, and still plenty of passing power in the 5th. I think I ended up hitting about 160 mph, indicated. I did not feel the governor, but backed off thinking it would kick in. It can definitely use some down force beyond 130 or so, but it wouldn't be relevant in the US.

Now the $70,000 question, would I do it? I think it would be a car to have if you could only have one car that needs to be somewhat practical and want to pass 911s in the straights and just about anything else on the road. I came away feeling that 530 is just about perfect compromise for comfort and occasional sporty driving. It is quiet, comfortable, and fast enough. However, M5 is definitely addictive. Even my wife, who could not believe I arranged for a test drive, agrees and enjoyed passing maneuvers just as much as I did. All in all, it was a great fun.

snagiel · October 2002

You raise a good point. I shake my head when I read through the M3 and M5 forums (especially on roadfly.org) and see folks spending thousands on aftermarket handling and power improvements. I love power as much as the next guy, but I think people too often forget that driving involves two elements: man and machine. Investing too heavily in only one (usually the machine) can only go so far, and has limited satisfaction. Even driving my relatively tame 530, I enjoy a well-executed quick 3-2 downshift through a tricky hairpin turn much more than just stomping on the accelerator to speed up on a straight road. The M5 driving program--as well as the shorter programs offered for every BMW delivered in Spartanburg--are a great idea, and performance-obsessed drivers should remember that an enjoyable and satisfying driving experience requires driver skill as much as a competent car.

srfast · October 2002

for a 2003 530i. I purchased a 530i because I saw no value in the additional $$ for the 540i. I crunched the numbers and besides the higher purchase price, the additioanl expense in 540i ownership wasn't worth it for me. I wanted great handling and adequate power for a street car at a reasonable cost and those are the strengths of the 530i. When I want to race a car, I enter an SCCA Pro/Club Racing event.

Just my $.02....JL

theomd · October 2002

Anyone experience this? '02 530iA;CWP;PP;stock radio. Every time I turn on the rear defroster the radio turns to static. Turn the rear defroster off and the radio comes back. Any thoughts! I know it is electrical problem and will take to the dealer - but is there an easy fix that will prevent wasted time at the dealership.

snagiel · October 2002

I haven't heard of that one. Both the antenna unit and the rear defogger unit are located in the driver's side C-pillar (which you can access somewhat easily following the directions at http://www.nextmill.net/bmw540/rears.htm). Perhaps there's some short between the wires there, so if you're inquisitive and comfortable you might want to take a look. But this should be covered under warranty, and shouldn't take too long to fix.

riez · October 2002

srfast... What options did you get? Sport pkg? Manual or automatic transmission? What was the MSRP on the car you bought? Wondering how close to $50K it is. When do you take delivery? If after 1/1/03, then you won't have the luxury tax.

How long do you plan on owning the car? Not exactly sure what you mean about "the additional expense of the 540i ownership". Both have same warranty and free scheduled maintenance. You shouldn't have repair or maintenance costs for years. Do you mean gas mileage? (Both take premium fuel. My 540i6 gets 26 mpg on interstate.) Insurance? (I don't if there is much of a difference, but what I pay thru USAA is in line with previous cars.) Annual car registration? (In my state the difference wouldn't be much, since the formula is about 90 percent purchase price and very little tied to weight or engine.)

ajrose · October 2002

Thanks to all for their views. I have researched as far as I am willing (2 minor warranty issues, clean carfax report), pushed the dealer to reduce price and driven the car several times. I have decided to go with the 02.
My research, relationship with the dealer and the extended CPO warranty make me comfortable with the car. Time is a significant factor as my current lease (2000 CLK 430) expires at the end of year and I am already over with miles. (This one will be a purchase). That coupled with fading rubber which may not last to lease end and service requirements push up the cost of waiting significantly. Money is always a consideration unless you are a pro baseball player or Bill Gates.
The changes to the 03 seem to work towards a stiffer ride, one which probably would have intrigued me more 10 years ago. I have a 35 mile commute, half on country roads and half on highway. The balance of the 5's I have driven all seem perfect.
Wish me luck.

snagiel · October 2002

Congratulations, and good luck. I'm sure ownership will be a blast.

srfast · October 2002

Riez, here's the scoop:
2003 530i, 5 speed/Sport, Premium, Cold Weather Packages, xenons and rear seat airbags. MSRP was $47,880.00. I am expecting delivery mid Dec. 2002. I was going to wait until January 2003 to save the luxury tax, but my dealer of choice had a 530i/5 spd in his November allocation and I took it.

As for the 540i/6, it is a great car, but I don't need that much power. I live in NYC and all the things you mentioned about operating cost is a concern to me. In the end, the 530i is perfect for me.

Hope this helps...JL

pap5 · October 2002

Snagiel, thanks for your input. Interesting that the non-Dinan CAI did nothing for your friend's car.

shipo · October 2002

Hello gang,

Just checking in to say "Hey". ;-)

Well, the move from NJ to NH is complete (we only have 300 more boxes in the basement to unpack!), and I am currently banished to dial-up purgatory, that is until Adelphia finishes upgrading their network in our town and offers us Cable Modems next month (I hope).

I hope to be able to start being an active participant again in the near future, until then, be well. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

metmdx · October 2002

Don't know what happened the first time, but got no responses.....

Hi all:

Well, 3 months later and 4k miles later, loving every minute of my '99 528ia CPO purchase. Unfortunately, winter is coming soon (i think) here in the northeast and I want to get prepared.

What is my best source for OEM BMW wheels (if any besides the dealer)? I am debating buying a set of winter tires for my recently purchased CPO '99 528i non-sport and want to put them on the OEM wheels currently on the car and get a new set of wheels for spring when I put the "regular" tires back on.
I only want to put BMW wheels on, not some aftermarket make.
Your input is greatly appreciated.

TIA,
metmdx

nyccarguy · October 2002

try Ebay.

john01 · October 2002

If you only want BMW wheels, then Ebay or roadfly, BMWCCA classified would be the place to check. Many people do get aftermarket wheels. Depending on how much you want to spend, there are lots of quality aftermarket rims. OZ, BBS, HRE, especially the forged ones will be quite a bit more than the OEMs, but a LOT more durable.

Often, OEM wheels are more expensive than they should be. I only purchased non-sport 530 wheels because it was offered as a pkg with winter tires that was better than what Tire Rack could have done. 17 inch OEM will easily set you back 400 to 500 a piece.

pap5 · October 2002

Thought you had become a silent, crusty New Englander.

cdnpinhead · October 2002

glad to hear from you.

You're a valuable resource and missed when not available.

jstyle · October 2002

Have anyone of you seen any spy photos? I think BMW is starting to peel away some of the disguising and things are looking more like the production design. Hopefully someone will snap the cars being tested. A friend was in Munich and saw what he believed was the 5 series at a petrol station. The two guys were looking under the car and he walked over to a disposal can next to the car and took a look. He said it looked bad! The headlights are completely different than any BMW so far. He couldn't tell around back because it was convered by what he thought was a plastic fake looking shell. The drivers interior is gone replaced he said by a modified 7 series style, looking like a higher and more 'one piece' dash with a giant i-drive screen in the middle. I don't know but BMW really has moved its styling in a new direction.

dabimmer · October 2002

Hey welcome back, missed your input, knew it was just a matter of time after
the move to NH. Had a nephew that moved to Windham near Nashua a couple
years ago. They all loved three quarters of the year there but could not handle
the winter and decided to move back to the Denver area.

mrnsr · October 2002

http://www.pbase.com/anjens/bmw5

Not too revealing, but it's something.

shipo · October 2002

Pap5,

Hmmm, "Crusty", well, after being in the USMC (Uncle Sam's Misguided Children) for a while (back in the 1970s), I am more than a little bit "Salty". As for becoming a New Englander, I suspect that will take a while, especially when you consider the fact that of the seven houses on our street, only one family is native to New England, and when you consider that the folks that I now work with are a mixture of Chinese, Japanese, Indian (from India), Swedish, along with a couple of genuine, bona-fide American Mutts (like me, English, Scotch, Welsh, Irish, French and American Indian), I am not going to be exposed to too much of the "Down Easter" influences. ;-)

CdnPinHead,

Thanks, its always nice to know that one is missed. ;-)

DaBimmer,

Ditto! As for the winters around here, bring them on! I grew up in Michigan (and LOVED it), then I spent 13 years in Chicago (and LOVED it too), and from what I can tell, New Hampshire winters, while interesting (as in WAY better than most of the winters I experienced in the NYC area), are still a little thin compared to what I am used to. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

cmr530i · October 2002

I test drove the 330 auto convertible today and had a ton of fun with the wind whipping my hair around at freeway speeds. The weather was cold but the heated seats were a handy feature to have. May consider that one in my next 5er. I found the car to be quick and responsive with good braking power. I loved not having any blind spots and full view all around. On the down side I found the auto very boring and the cabin a bit small for my taste, not to mention noisy from traffic all around (but I guess that is to be expected.) Getting back into my own 5, I sure appreciated the extra room, quiet cabin, and manual transmission.
P.S. Welcome back, Shipo!

dabimmer · October 2002

I have to admire someone who lives in Michigan, Chicago and New Hampshire
and the winter weather that living there involves. More power to you, I guess
I did enjoy the seasons in and around the Denver area and even winter but as I
got older I found that it wasn't Fun any more and moved to California 41 years
ago and now would find it difficult if not impossible to readjust to that weather.
But like I said, I do admire people who genuinely like that weather. Please bring
us up to date on your Sapphire black beauty that I remember seeing on these
posts and keep us informed. Thanks.

ajrose · October 2002

Some nice pics of the 2004 design on the 5 series vs G35 board just got posted.

Picking up my 540i6 in a couple of hours! Yahoo.

skobola · October 2002

The http://thewheelexchange.com/ has some of BMW wheels at pretty low prices. I believe that these are used rims, but you can call them to ask them; the phone number is shown on the web site. Good luck.

pap5 · October 2002

Some pictures in current Autoweek. Amidships, it looks much like the E39, except for character line on the rocker panel. Sweep of hood cutline to the windshield appears identical. Bow and stern, however, are another story . . .

For those old enough to remember, it's like when they grafted a new front and rear onto the Triumph TR-4 to create the TR-6. They updated a beautiful design, but diminished it, too.

nyccarguy · October 2002

To me, the new 5 series (muled autoweek pics) look like cross between a giant Mitsubishi Lancer and a Z3.

I'm sure I'll love it whne it hits the showrooms though.

uwscarguy · October 2002

To me it looks like a Pontiac Gran Am. Not impressive at first glance, but even the 7 is growing on me.

nyccarguy · October 2002

The first pics I saw of the new 7 made me want to Vomit. Now I drool whenever I see that car with the optional 19" wheels. It seems the designs do grow on you as Mr. Bangle puts it. The sheetmetal isn't done justice by the spyphotos.

530bmw · October 2002

Can you tell me what is the final mark up over the invoice?

sezme2 · October 2002

I have a 2002 540iA with sport package (M wheels) that I bought a couple months ago. Unfortunately, it was driven up against a curb (lightly) enough to scuff up the passenger side wheels. What can be done to fix this? I live in the Dallas-Ft.Worth area. Will BMW repair them for a fee? Any thoughts?

That said, this car is phenomenal in every sense of the word. I don't like automatic trannies, but this car defines what a computer shifter should do. It seems to shift right about when I would most of the time. I've driven the E500 and remain faithful to my baby.

The downside though... I have just over 34 months left on the lease before I get my M5 :-) My wife was against the idea of spending this much on a car. Now she can't wait to drive something faster, and possibly stiffer, especially with the carseat in the back.

snagiel · October 2002

Dealers don't generally deal with bruised wheels, or any other body work for that matter. Most contract out such work to trusted and experienced wheel and body shops they're familiar with. Give your dealer (and, if you'd like, Mercedes, Lexus, and Audi dealers in the area) a call, and ask for recommendations for a wheel repairer. I had a similar issue with my after-market Borbet wheel on my Passat, and the wheel place here in Atlanta made it look--and perform--brand new for half the cost (about $100) of a new wheel. Good luck.

hssahu · October 2002

Good day all! Thought of giving an update. Now 5k miles on my 530i (since getting it in july). Have been enjoying every mile behind the wheel. Every weekend, unless I drive at least 100 miles on mountains, I become impatient

(my daily commute is only 12 miles!)

Would just share the most profound aspects:
- Awesome power
- the lovely engine (whether at 1500 rpm or at 5000 rpm, the engine has such a "silky" tune - I think, one timeless classic)
- transmission: Though, initially, I was finding it a bit awkward, over the time it feels so smooth especially, when u r driving hard!
- Suspension: I don't have sports suspension! Though, I do feel the "float" and "roll", at times which I wish, was not there, I don't call myself a very hard driver. On the other hand, some of the bay area roads are really bad and bumpy - and it does amaze by the "smoothness" and the "holding" capability "both at the same time".

Only had to add some oil (the dealer did it readily). Only one of the green light in the service indicator is out (still 4 remaining!) Thinking of chaning the oil anyway. Can you share how often do you change?

Then, some general stuff. How often do you wax? Lots of dust and dirt in this area - I end up washing it every week!

srfast · October 2002

I got about $1,800 off MSRP. I could have probably gotten more off by shopping around, but I have an established relationship with the dealership & wasn't inclined to get into a "can you beat this price" game. My salesperson is a long time friend and I know that I will be getting savings in other areas (parts) and VIP service from his team, so I am satisfied with my deal.

Hope this helps...JL

snagiel · October 2002

Good review.

The oil debate has been around as long as there have been cars, probably. Some swear by changing their own oil every 3k-5k miles regardless. Otheres--including me--place some trust in BMW engineers and their recommendations. Given that an oil change is relatively cheap maintenance for a car company, I highly doubt BMW erred on the liberal and wanted to save a couple bucks by increasing the oil change interval.

I wax every couple of months, usually. I use One Grand Blitz Wax, which I'm generally very pleased with. And I wash with a diluted (only half as potent as the recommended amount) solution of either Sonax Gloss Shampoo or P21S Bodywork Conditioning Shampoo. They are very mild and do not strip the wax off.

bimmer12 · October 2002

Shipo- nice to hear your move has been smooth thus far..Any ideas where Mike Weber is these days? I hear he left Park Ave, BMW in Paramus, NJ.. I thought he might have moved to a dealership in NH

!

jacqueslan · October 2002

Hi All;

I did enjoy the posts...thinking of getting 530 next year from 3.2TL. One question...Does Park Distance Control worth it??

We are expecting a 325i by end of the month to replace 1999 323i. My wife will let me do the break in period.

Thanks,

Jlan

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