Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
bmwwife...I said I would do it, I didn't say it would be easy As for what to tell them...how about the truth? If she is really not as pretty what's the point in lying about it? I would tell her that just because someone else is better looking does not mean that she is not good looking. I would feel the same way if I thought the E60 was a better looking car, it still wouldn't make me think less of the E39. Hey, I still drool when I see a pre-Bangle 7 series and how about that DB9? .
The new E60 feels like it was forced. As if BMW didn't know exactly how to improve on a car that Consumer Reports last year said, "It's the best car we've ever tested."
I don't despise the E60. I just think the changes made were NOT evolutionary. They weren't even radical. I feel as if the changes were made to just make changes. To me it's BANGLE'S BUNGLE.
I could have purchased an '03 or an '04. Hands down, I chose an '03. And I'm thrilled! Happy motoring all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't share the view the E60 is a "Bangles Blunder". That's that makes this forum fun, reading the passionate opinions.
Here's the top vehicles in this segment.
1. 545i sport, jet black, 6-speed
2. 545i sport, jet black, SMG
3. 545i sport, black sapphire, 6-speed
4. 545i sport, black sapphire, SMG
5. 545i sport, silver gray, 6-speed
6. 545i sport, silver gray, SMG
7. 545i sport, jet black, auto
8. 545i sport, black sapphire, auto
9. 545i sport, silver gray, auto
10.530i sport, jet black, 6-speed
1. Styling: This is purely personal preference. Either you like it or you don't. (Personally, I do like the exterior but do not like the interior, esp. the dash.)
2. Performance: Appears all who have driven it rave. It is a great performing car. (The electric steering might be a slight concern.)
3. Engineering/Design (e.g., iDrive, ergonomics, human-car interface): Here is where I believe the car stumbles compared to both E39 as well as other cars. Better than the even worse E65 7 Series, but still works against making it easy, natural, and intuitive to fully enjoy driving the car.
4. Price: Price seems to have risen dramatically from E39, esp. when looking at MSRPs on dealers' lots.
5. Long-term ownership: Will all the electronic bells and whistles make the car costly to own in long run or unreliable? Only time will tell. I wouldn't want the first 2 model years of this platform. Think there will be a lot of bugs to work out.
Drove a co-workers new e60 yesterday at lunch. Liked it better than I thought I would. Interior was actually an ergonomic improvement over the e39 (and I can see how it should save BMW a bundle in costs), but I expect the i-drive will take some getting used to. In two weeks, the owner feels he's mastered "most" of the functions - at least those that are important to driving. Oh, and HVAC has big round knobs that work independently of the i-drive. Smart move.
No comment on the exterior. Beauty in a Bimmer is much more than skin deep.
HiC
IIRC, the previous 5 was around since 1996? Can't really blame them.
riez, your No.3 makes a whole lot of sense. To me, this compares to the S-Type which was offensive to many Jaguar fans, that oval interior dash was redone a few years after to mimic the very popular XJ and X-Type layout. I wouldn't doubt it if the interior would be the first redesign before the interior.
Personally, I thought that the 5er interior was looking tired and dated, maybe an interior slightly less innovative or adventurous would have been better.
If anything, BMW has a lot of people talking about their cars.
Somebody, somewhere has been absorbing 20 - 30% changes in exchange rates over the past year or two on BMWs & Audis. Now BMW has a new model and can write off the increases to all the "improvements." Ain't marketing great? Look for Audi to do something similar in the not-to-distant future.
Most likely, the E60 is less expensive to manufacture than the E39 (in Munich), but the exchange rate more than wipes it out. . .and here we are.
"SG Securities: Denying speculation of a weak start, management expects 5 Series sales to exceed 2002 figures (172,000 units) before reaching more than 200,000 units in '04."
"West LB Securities: The 5 series Q3 sales figure of 50,156 units was substantially above our expectations of 39,000 units, this being due to the unexpectedly high sell-off figures of the old 5 series in the USA, however. [Looks like people were grabbing the E39's off the lots -- Bentleyfam25.] Around 24,060 units of the new 5 series have been sold since July. We expect this momentum to increase further in Q4 in view of the current start of sales in the USA and the UK (October). According to BMW, retail sales stand at 38,000 units at the end of October."
Sorry this doesn't format well:
"West LB Securities (again):
5 series unti sales:
'01: 193,948
'02: 172,323
Q1'03: 34,476
Q2 '03 41,152
Q3 '03 50,156
Q4 '03(E) 57,500
'03E: 183,284
'04E: 225,000
'05E: 240,000
'06 E: 235,000"
The key figure is the Q3 to Q4 change, when all the E39's are off the lots and all that's being sold is E60. If you believe the above, the 5-series will do just fine, and whether we like it or not, Bangle et al were right. Sorry, all those who don't like the design (of which I'm one) -- at least for now, the E60 is succeeding quite well. Let's see if it's just early adopters or a real styling acceptance. Of course, it could be a well-time example of PR spin.
Well, I said that if the numbers proved Bangle right about the market, I'd stop complaining about the design. Good luck to them all, and I hope we learn to like the E60 skins, 'cause whats under them is still the best car on the planet for the money.
BTW -- if you like 3 series, the same reports say there's a 10% drop in 3 series sales. Perhaps a good time to bargain.
Cheers--
I know of several people who didn't buy a 2003 E39 because they didn't want to own the last model year. However, in at least 1-2 cases, they are likely not to buy an E60 5 series and are condsidering competitive models.
I believe a better judgement on the E60 will be able to be made in 4-6 months.
The true story will not be told until next year and especially the year after that. Will E60 do 7 years like previous successful platforms? Probably not because of BMW's plans to diversify. The 6 will cut into it as will styling improvements from MB.
Am still dreaming of the elusive Porsche sedan. That's the company I'm really rooting for... need serious help with sales and stand to be taken over. What with the 7 being the ultimate Lincoln, the 6 being the ultimate Chrysler, and the 5 being the ultimate fruit basket, Porsche is the real ultimate driving machine... and looks like it too.
At our level, the practical effect of low sales would be an early redesign, or improved economics to boost sales (nice incentives, lower prices, higher residuals, etc). Good sales means that they'll stick with the design and economics they've got. Other than that, our complaints don't matter much. That's why I'm going to stop complaining, at this point. If sales are good, it doesn't matter (though its a lot of fun).
Agree with you that a better judgment on the numbers will take place in 4-5 months. I'll be looking at the sales figures, but from a practical view: if they drop, and I decide that there isn't anything better than a BMW, I'll be able to negotiate a better deal.
Designman, I've always agreed with your insightful and funny posts (5 is a fruit?), and I'm also surprised that Porsche didn't do a sedan instead of Cayenne (seems like the same investment effort, right?). A Porsche sedan could be a real category killer, if done right, particularly if they make it a more attractive design than the fruit...sorry, 5.
Best --
I would never buy a car sight unseen, but if I did, it would be the Porsche sedan.
;-)
The old controls (buttons and knobs) are easily used while watching the road, after the driver has used them a few times, because of their unique location, shape, or action. Even a modern radio with digital pushbuttons for stations or tracks is a quick glance away. "karmikans" description of changing the track on a CD is truly scary for those of us on the same road with the new 5 & 7 machines..
As for the looks, exterior or interior, that is purely a subjective issue. Everyone has a different idea of what is attractive. That's why both Picasso and Rembrandt are famous..
Will people be crashing them?
Will sales drop?
Love it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It would be interesting to compare the end of first year sales of the E60 with the end of first year sales of the E39 from 1997. Not that it would statistically be apples to apples, but at least it would point to market share domination by BMW.
We need to wait for at least 9-12 months before the initial rush dies down. I think the 2004-2005 year will be the true test for the E60.
If nothing else, with the E60, we are seeing the 5-series move into a new price category. A 2003MY 530i with PP, SP and Xenons could be had for around low 40's or less. My 2002MY 530i also cost in low 40's. Now with the same options, a 2004 will cost around $50K. I decided on my 530i because, among other things, it was a bigger car than the 330i (my original choice) for not much more. Now I can no longer say that. But we get i-drive and questionable reliability instead. Fortunately I still have 13 months left on my lease before I need to make a decision on my next car. Maybe something will change.
That's the area in which BMW appears to stand out, at least for the moment.
While only two examples, these were both likely E39 buyers that rejected the E60 for different reasons.
designman: Regarding the M5, I can tell you that I am receiving a lot more inquiries from friends and strangers asking if I am interested in selling mine. It would appear that one wanting a fully equiped 2004 E60 545i 6-speed is going to be paying damn close to what I paid for a new 2002 M5. P.S. My answer remains "no", and it's likely to remain that way for at least a few years until BMW reintroduces something that interests me.
Sorry so many on this forum dislike the car. response I have received is overwhelmingly positive.
Orient blue/beige, manual, sports pckg, premium pckg, logic 7, adaptive headlights
The one at the show was a base 525 automatic-it even had vinyl seats. Some have dispraised it,but I very much loved its starkness. In contrast,I thought the interior of the Lexus LS430 and even the Benz E320 too glitzy in comparison.
The i-drive is troublesome,sure,but without navigation,or a phone,or the many things fron the 745 left off the525,it didn't bother me too much...even the salesman said you could just about ignore it.
The next day I drove a 530 manual. First off,the MUCH larger back seat makes the car much more desireable..that is one of the main reasons I didn't buy a 525 back in 2001.
I loved the shift qualities,and in general,the car floored me. The styling I neither love nor hate...behind the wheel,I think it a huge improvement.
it also seemed immensley solid..not a sound as it drove along.
I find myself accelerating when curves approach rather than braking, handling is amazing)
I really love this car--this morning, I saw an '03 E39 next to an E60, and in my opinion the e39 looked old/tired in comparison. Wife was with me and agreed that the e60 was much nicer looking.
I, too, like the e39, but like the e60 better. I bought an e320 in '02 after deciding the back seat of the e39 was too small, and the e60 now takes care of that problem.
Now for the real problem...the long, long wait!
I also saw this very neat color, it looks almost brown, it looked very nice. It is definitely growing on me.
My choice would be silver with black solid seats, sans spoiler. Also like sterling/beige or blue/black. Red... like it but prefer anonymity.
Radar a must. Got nailed doing a casual 80 last month. Luckily the nice police officer gave me only a "driving without due caution" ticket... something new in Jersey... no points, no record... 78 bucks, no muss, no fuss.
I have seen 2002 M5's advertised for anywhere from $70k+ down to $49.9k. The latter tempted me to call and, as it turns out, it was an executive relocating to Europe and the loss on the car was being picked up by his company. Two M5's in my garage didn't make much sense, but somebody got a heck of a deal.
My M5 happens to be Sterling Gray with two tone grey and black seats. I would not have gotten the two tone seats myself, but this was a cancelled order at a great price. The only colors I suggest avoiding are black (the toughest to keep looking good) and white (IMO, does not look good on an M5).
P.S. There were some minor improvements in the 2002 vs. 2001 model (nav system, etc.). The 2003 was essentially the same as the 2002.
You are headed in the right direction my friend. A stick certainly enhances driving, and a BMW with a stick is a good as it gets in a sedan.
Now, where shall we learn about this. Well, I'd suggest a BMW center (dealer). Tell them you're interested in a BMW, and how you need to determine if a stick is for you. See if they'll take you out in a used car with a stick and give you the basics. They should because it'll certainly grow their potential market. After all, if you want a stick in a sedan, BMW is about the only stop left. (E55 with no stick, ugh)
Happy Motoring,
Jack
I was reading in another forum where someone referred to low-profile tires as connestoga wagon wheels... couldn't help but laugh and agree. I love the glory and power of the M5, but to me it comes with compromises, mainly the rough ride of those wheels and the shortcomings on switchbacks as compared to a Porsche.
I agree with you about white 5's. I like white cars but somehow it doesn't work for me on any bimmer but the 3 convertible. I don't like black either but there is something perversely seductive about a black M5... like the F-117 stealth fighter jet.
However, if you haven't done so, I think you owe yourself a lengthy test drive of the M5. IMO it is not any harsher of a ride than my former 540i 6-speed. Granted, I live in a temperate climate and most of my driving is on decent roads. An M5 at 10 degrees on the streets of Pittsburgh would be a harsh ride for sure. However, before you compare the M5 to a Conestoga wagon, try finding an old 930 Turbo to drive. The reason those cars didn't have airbags is that a speedbump would set them off.