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Lexus LS 400/LS 430

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Comments

  • lenscaplenscap Member Posts: 854
    That's actually one of the reasons Lexus switched from Nakamichi stereos to Mark Levenson. Nakamichi could not get their system to work with the nav -- you could only have one or the other. The ML, however, can be ordered with the nav.
  • anthonyp1anthonyp1 Member Posts: 27
    I thaught a gyro was for boat steering? In a boat the gps and gyroscope are hooked together to keep boat on track with currents working against it, I thaught. Tony
  • antiosamaantiosama Member Posts: 62
    anthony1, It may not be a gyroscope-I can't remember the proper term the dealer told me-but the GPS system has a transmitter-tracking device of some sort located behind the rear seat and above the rear axle.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
  • antiosamaantiosama Member Posts: 62
    Yaw sensor would be for the Vehicle Skid Control sensor.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    used a gyroscope as the basis for sensing yaw. Today's Lexii use a lateral and a longitudinal "accelerometer". Lateral for yaw detection and longitudinal for acceleration/deceleration.
  • antiosamaantiosama Member Posts: 62
    That has nothing to do with the GPS Navi system though. That is strictly a Vehicle Skid Control/Traction system hardware unit.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    I was just correcting what is under the rear seat, not a gyroscope but a yaw sensor and an accelerometer. And yes I can't imagine how those could be used with the GPS/Nav.
  • anthonyp1anthonyp1 Member Posts: 27
    wwest you sure know your stuff. I`v enjoyed your posts over the months Tony
  • lateralglateralg Member Posts: 929
    Could it be used by the nav system when it is doing dead-reckoning? Steering position could also be used, but tire slippage that varies with speed may make it less accurate than sensing yaw that is induced by steering.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    would be that the yaw sensor is good, okay, for detecting short term lateral "excursions" but not accurate enough over the long term to be used for "inertial guidance".

    The yaw sensor and the steering wheel position sensor and speed are used in combination to react and possibly correct oversteer, lateral yaw beyond that "commanded" by the steering wheel position, and understeer, insufficient yaw for the command input.
  • lateralglateralg Member Posts: 929
    Seems to make sense, but I'm unclear on your second paragraph.
  • flint350flint350 Member Posts: 250
    What he is saying is, the yaw sensor compares the amount of turn indicated by steering wheel input (e.g. gentle off-ramp vs. full 90 degree turn, etc) with the amount of turn (skid, spin, over/understeer) the car is actually making. If the steering wheel input doesn't match what the car is doing, corrective action is taken by the computers (braking, wheel spin, etc).

    Hope that's not more confusing yet. It's clear in my mind, but not as easy to explain.
  • lateralglateralg Member Posts: 929
    Oh!

    What you say makes perfect sense to me. Thanks.

    OTOH, doesn't that suggest that the yaw sensor would be a more accurate nav. system info. source for dead-reckoning navigation?
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Only if you travel like a certain crab, SIDEWAYS!
  • flint350flint350 Member Posts: 250
    gschwartz, in theory, yes. But it is not that simple. The yaw sensor in the car is much less sophisticated than the several used in inertial nav. systems. You would need several and they have to be calibrated precisely and fully integrated gyroscopically with all nav inputs, including wheel size/spin rate and other such inputs that would be far too expensive to consider in a consumer product.

    In theory also, you wouldn't even need the GPS satellites since inertial nav doesn't need them - only a very precise knowledge of it's starting point. It then calculates position by measuring (thru those many and expensive sensors) the actual movement of the vehicle (inertia). These types of systems, used in airliners for years, can detect movement as small as a "push-back" from the gate at the airport.

    The car's GPS, on the other hand, uses satellite triangulation to arrive at a map coordinate which it then compares to the stored map in your database and, thereby, "finds" your position on the map. That is one reason why it occasionally gets "lost" or off position - if the roads change slightly since the database was made, a mismatch occurs. Of course, there are other reasons also, but this is getting long - sorry.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Only detects/senses "sideways" movements, "lack of" for understeer and "excessive" for oversteer. There is a decelerometer included in some lexus vehicles but I'm sure it isn't accurate enough in the long term.
  • lateralglateralg Member Posts: 929
    I'm getting smarter. Thanks Flint & West. I still have a knowledge gap:

    When in dead reckoning mode, (no GPS signal) which provides better information, steering sensor or yaw sensor?

    It seems that the steering sensor reads what the driver asks for, and the yaw sensor reads what the driver gets.

    The difference would be slippage, (slip angle) which varys with speed, road & tire coefficient of friction (which in turn vary with weather & temperarure), road camber, and maybe other stuff.

    Or, am I demonstrating profound ignorance of a yaw sensor's capabilities?

    Is there just one yaw sensor in the car? Is it (them) truly a yaw sensor, or as you suggest, a lateral accelerometer?
    Yaw: (Aeronautics) "To turn or deviate from the line of flight by angular motion about the normal, or vertical, axis"
  • flint350flint350 Member Posts: 250
    To the best of my knowledge, the yaw sensor in the LS is only for use in the vsc and associated systems and has nothing whatever to do with the nav. I was just trying to answer/explain how inertial nav works in response to your question and that, in theory (but not real world, economic reality) it could be applied in a car. But again, the yaw sensing is for loss of control - as you correctly state, it is sideways deviation from straight line and that is what is being monitored, not geographic position. Sorry for any confusion.
  • flint350flint350 Member Posts: 250
    Of course, if the yaw is sufficiently horrendous, it can, after all, result in a change in geographic position that might be detectable by the gps nav. ;) (requiring a tow truck)
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    An airplane can travel in a straight line even when the airframe is not correctly aligned with the line of travel. A "true" yaw sensor would be used to tell the pilot of this situation.

    I believe the "yaw" sensor in the Lexus VSC system is really a lateral accelerometer, not a yaw sensor as such.
  • lateralglateralg Member Posts: 929
    Thanks guys. I'll sleep better now.
  • antiosamaantiosama Member Posts: 62
    Yes, the yaw sensor is only used for the VSC system. The Navigation system, though, also has a particular component located somwhere over the rear axle. Again, not sure what it is called. Just relaying what I remember the salesperson saying to me about 1.5 years ago.
  • drcomputerdrcomputer Member Posts: 82
    Now if we could only get people who knew so much about cars and their yaw sensors to actually learn how to better drive them and not go 55mph is the fast lane....I would be happy :)

    Just my holiday humorous 2 cents worth.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    in the fast lane?

    Only if the posted speed is 45MPH..
  • rennyboschrennybosch Member Posts: 329
    I got a postcard urging me to renew my Lexus Link service. I called the number given and asked how much it cost. They said $215 for one year for the basic service (emergency only).

    I then asked, "If I don't renew, will the 'Lexus Link is active' message still come on?" They said Yes, the message will still come on but there will be no service provided.

    To me the biggest complaint about the LS430 has been that stupid message interrupting my music or book-on-tape listening every time I start the engine. If that message still stays on even after I have cancelled the service I'll be really annoyed. Don't know what I may do . . . Better watch out, Lexus Link!
  • bda1bda1 Member Posts: 3
    Recently discovered that there is some relief available as the volume of the annoying 'Lexus Link is active' message is controlled by the volume control on the overhead Lexus Link console.
  • flint350flint350 Member Posts: 250
    Well, if they're updating the "link", maybe they are close to updating the nav database (except for wwest - you get the "new" paper version!). Still haven't heard anything about it yet, except it was orig. scheduled for Nov, then Dec. and someone said it's now set for Jan 02.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Not interested, just "firmware" corrections.
  • anthonyp1anthonyp1 Member Posts: 27
    I have the up graded version and have used it a few times. I think when they get it so that a person can actually get data on traffic backups and other useful data they will have a real winner that is worth the money. Right now it is ok but not that helpful. Just think if you got on the link `said I want to go to New York`, and it came back programmed the gps and showed you where there were delays, and then you punched your radar, which would be nice if it also detected police, and drove off. Tony
  • jeffmust2jeffmust2 Member Posts: 811
    ...it would enable all the deer to know when wwest was on the road.
  • rxdcrxdc Member Posts: 3
    I have a 99 LS CPO, which I purchased 3 weeks ago. It has about 12000 miles on it now. The car is in excellent condition like new. Upon inspection of service record, I noticed that the first oil change (5000 mile service) was not done till 7100 miles, 18 months after the car was first delivered at port. Should I be concerned about the possible engine sludge? The Lexus advisor told me not to worry just because the first service was not done sooner. He also said the oil left in the drum doesn't sludge and the sludge forms because of pollution in the engine and mileage is more critical factor in sludge formation. Should I ask the dealer to flush the engine just in case. Thanks for your advise.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I don't think I've ever gotten the oil changed before 7500 miles on any Lexus LS car. They want you to bring it in at 5k miles but I wonder how many people really do. Given that I never had a problem with any Lexus I doubt you will.

    flint350 - the back-end of the new 7 is repulsive. I don't think Lexus and MB could have conspired to make a poorer rear design for their competitor. The front isn't bad though. Lexus interior still best by far. What do you think?
  • anthonyp1anthonyp1 Member Posts: 27
    I just read an article that again said ls 430 and models before are boxy. I just think lexus looks like lexus, and each model I have owned (on third ls for four years each) is better than last . All of the other manufacturers are the ones changing the looks of their cars,and some the product is actually poorer. Each time my turn comes up I look seriously at all the competition, and lexus comes out on top. That is not to say I don`t think some of the features can not be improved, such as sppech recognition, and the parking assist to name two, but all in all a great car. Tony
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I am right there with you except this LS430 is so good I may not waste my time looking at the others next time. But they do make wonderful improvements that are noticable. This interior is spectacular compared to the past model and somehow the engine is more silky smooth than in the past - no easy task. I've never been in a car that has a ride like this car. Been in the old and new S many times - great ride but it's not an LS. The Nak was one great stereo but the ML is out of this world. As for the looks it is the most stately car of the group. Boxy design - the current 7 has that not the LS430. New 7 - see earlier comment.
  • lenscaplenscap Member Posts: 854
    Here's an interesting article from Fortune titled


    "The controversial new 7 Series


    Do You Think This Car Is Ugly?


    If so, you aren't alone. It could mean bumps ahead for BMW, just as it's stepping on the gas."


    I posted this on the 7-Series board but thought people here might also be interested.


    Here's the link:


    http://www.fortune.com/indexw.jhtml?channel=artcol.jhtml&doc_id=205377

  • flint350flint350 Member Posts: 250
    I don't like the rear end. It looks like they tried to compromise on something to cover more tastes, but I think they failed. The photos of the interior that I've seen look nice, but nothing spectacular. If people thought the Command system on the Benz was too complex (personally, I didn't), wait until they try this.

    I won't be too quick to label the whole car/concept a failure (wouldn't want to upset merc1 after all), but I do believe it is starting off with self-imposed hurdles to jump. If I were buying my LS right now, I'd at least look at the new 7, but initial impression is that I'd stay with the Lexus. ljflx (and everyone else) have a good and safe holiday.
  • pathdocpathdoc Member Posts: 126
    Personally I think that the worst feature on the new 7 series is the shifter that is on the steering column and can't be manually shifted(in the U.S.). It is set up that way supposedly to avoid the gas guzzler penalty.
  • anthonyp1anthonyp1 Member Posts: 27
    I guess everyone who is in the market, owes a look at competition. If they do not do the homework and just take our word, they will deny themselves the enjoyment of making a decision and being right, and knowing why. Afterall there are many who want something different than Lexus, and buy. We know what the differences are, because we look, before we buy.
    Stereo is really good, and for me the radar control is helpful. I really do not see how they are going to improve the ride in the future, other than a tire change, and interior is vastly better than four years ago. Right now I am a happy camper. Tony
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Why would I be "upset" if you don't like the new 7? I'm having a time with the styling myself. Either way it wouldn't matter to me what you thought of the car.

    M
  • pcbrspcbrs Member Posts: 57
    Hey-

    I might be the only one on this board to think so, but I actually like the way the new 7 series looks from front and behind. It has a futuristic look to it, that I appreciate. =D The LS430 is a marvelous car, and I'm sure I'll enjoy the ride a bit more in the city than the 7, but I personally like the 7 series in terms of its exterior styling. Then again, I like the LS430 exterior too, which the motor press do not seem to fully admire.
  • carnaughtcarnaught Member Posts: 3,497
    Yesterday the Benz parked right next to my LS. My car was dirty, his was clean. Without driving one after the other, I concluded that the body of the M.B. is much nicer, but not by as much as I previously thought. Other conclusion...the Lexus' interior was much nicer and holding up better. The Merc's interior was showing quite a bit of wear..leather wrinkling excessively, etc. The ergonomics of the Lexus are also much better as is the reliablility...Both 2001's.

    ...my$.02...
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Tony - The only problem is you need to match a substantially more expensive S-500 vs. the LS430 to get a decent contest. The S-430's engine is a pretty weak match-up. I went the S comparison route pretty heavily a year ago. Had to move off that S-430 - it just lacked the acceleration and passing power of the LS. The S-500 and LS 430 were equals in power but the LS has the better body build and better ride and amenities I desired plus it's almost $400 per month cheaper. No doubt it will be the more reliable car. I know a few people who have the S-class. They rave about the car until something goes wrong than they complain bitterly but they still say they'd buy it because its an MB. When they ride in my car they are amazed at the Lexus ride and amenities. Believe it or not they shortchanged themselves by not comparing.

    carnaught - S doesn't look so good when its dirty particularly when it's a black one. I think the S is a beautiful looking car though. But I also love the design of the LS430. The new 7 is looking worse and worse to me. BMW lovers must be stunned. The rear design is just atrocious and does not flow with the front of the car.

    flint350 - a wonderful holiday and new year to you as well.
  • jjsdfsjjsdfs Member Posts: 3
    Has anyone installed this new toy? Reaction?

    Seems it will be hard to fit and may have interface problems with Lev unit...
  • anthonyp1anthonyp1 Member Posts: 27
    Sorry I guess I just assumed the s500. My partner just auto gets a mb. His last car , four or five years ago, rode very much like our ls430. This year, his new 500 is really not as nice as 430. Take a look at the headliner, no little hiding places , comfort, and no contest where layout of dash is concerned. For me the diff between 400 and 430, sort of makes me wonder why lexus was so slow to give us the wood, etc.
    When I made up my mine to get a lesis(again) I was forced to gamble on interior. I got the black and bordeau, apprehensive cause I thought I would like light maple, but was not offered. The black is not really a black black, and is very peacefull to live with. I was way more impressed when I took delivery, and it has grown on me more and more. I am not even comparing price, but now that you mention it, sixty seven thousand is getting rediculous for a car. The victoria(ford) is a nice car, at least to look at, and if I have to pay directly (myself) all the guys are going to have to look to someone other than me. Imagine the next go around mb will be over one hundred and lexus better not be more than the last one. Tony
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    so it doesn't
  • anthonyp1anthonyp1 Member Posts: 27
    what doesn`t. Seems everyone lost interest in Lexus. I still feel like a bridegroom with mine. I have notices now that is has finally rained, the raindrops are much dirtier than they use to be Tony
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    threads get archived.

    I know how you feel, pride in ownership.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    wwest, what do you mean? Are you concerned this discussion will be archived?

    Not a chance! :-)

    Pat
    Host
    Sedans Message Board
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    that the SC430 "proud owners" thread kept sliding into archival mode due to no posts for a fairly short period.
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