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Comments
(BTW, I've driven both RWD and FWD Volvos in the snow-- The RWD model I drove didn't have snow tires, but it was ok--it did require a little extra attention and driver input-- not a bad thing to be doing, anyway. The FWD model I drove handled, like I said, like pretty much every other front drive vehicle I've driven, which is to say pretty predictably. If you get a newer FWD Volvo with the winter package, traction control is included. Why they didn't employ traction control on the RWD models, post '93 when the front drivers got it, is beyond me.)
Intro pkg $1,551
auto tran $1,000
Advertising $400
destination charge $575
total $28,436
plus $200
Total $28,636
plus approx. 10% for tax and license
Total drive off is approx. $31,500
Dealer has been calling every other day to close the deal.
The S60 looks appealing. Excellent but overly sensitive brakes. Spirited acceleration. But Volvo's repair record and maintainence cost are sub par comparing to MBZ, Toyota/Lexus.
IMHO MBZ C class and VW Passat give more value to the dollar. MBZ, Toyota and VW parts are more readily available, and less expensive. Volvo dealership/network and sales are shrinking. Future maintainence could become a problem as dealerships are scarce and owners need to drive more for service.
You put the options you mentioned above on even a C240, and it would be more like $38-40k drive off (minimum).
Besides, I personally don't understand the big deal with the C class. My sister has a C320, and honestly I don't like it anywhere near as much as my T5.
Comparably equipped the 2001 MBZ C class will cost approx. $35k, out the door. The C has a V6 and the S60 a transverse 5. V6 costs more and the 5 cylinder engine has to work harder to produce the same hp. The C class also has more torque and the C includes as standard, traction control or automatic slip control and is rated the best pick by IIHS in their 40 mph barrier crash test. The windshield didn't even crack and there is absolutely no intrusion into the compartment. After the crash, you could literally open the door and walk out.
Volvo is renowned for their safety feature/record and the station wagon well received but the side and curtain airbags were introduced later than MBZ/other car manufacturers.
MBZ includes 4 years free maintainance service. My MBZ dealer included car owner appreciation linguine dinner invitation to a family of five plus ownership safety advice conducted by two local police captains to ensure MBZ owners' safety and drive home safely also. Dealership also included hand car wash/vacuum everytime you visited. No purchase needed. From Monday to Sunday, everyday you also get either omelet and muffin breakfast, Edwards cinema tickets, shoeshine service, body massage [list goes on] again all free of charge and no service or purchase required.
For servicing you car, the dealer will flatbed your car or you can get a free loaner car. If they run out of MBZ loaner car, they will arrange a free rental car [not MBZ] or provide limousine drop off and pick you up when you car is ready. I doubt if Volvo can offer the above value.
The Volvo may cost a little less to purchase [depending on how you configure the car] but so is Yugo. If you are after power, go with Mustang or Corvette. Hyundai/Daewoo also offer more HP/$.
The C Class station wagon will be available this Sept. and Volvo's market share will continue to further slip behind. I liked the Volvo very much also and will definitely keep it as a second car if I decided to get one. Volvo was named a poor man's Mercedes but it is changing as Volvo is much more expensive nowadays and the maintainance and parts are very costly. My mechanic told me Volvo is less reliable and I recommend you to trade up for a Mercedes. You will know what I mean if you drive and own a Mercedes.
Also, why bring up Mustang, Corvette, Hyundai, and Daewoo? That was a ridiculous comparison. You are ignorant to say that horsepower and performance don't mean anything in the "sport" sedan luxury class. Otherwise, why would there be all the sport packages offered and ther performance versions of the BMW and Mercedes?
By the way, the S60 hasn't yet been tested by the IIHS, but the S80 - which is basically the same front end as the S60 - was also a best pick. I'm fairly confident that the S60 will do as well.
Mercedes are great cars, but one has to pay quite a bit extra to drive one. Personally, I can't see paying $7,000 extra just for the extra service and perks that would probably be rarely used.
By the way ... the perceived better reliability of the Mercedes probably isn't warranted. The previous generation C-Class and Volvo 850/S70 were very similar in their reliability according to Consumer Reports, with the C-Class (very) slightly eeking out the Volvo.
In all fairness, he/she was comparing base S60's with C240's. Even at that level, I really don't get the sense that the MB "V6" is really better than the Volvo inline 5. From what I've read, the MB 2.6 V6 is not that torquey where you need it to be.
Either way, good luck!
Tough decision for sure.. I went through a similar decision recently... I really liked the S60 over the other choices in its class.. the LEXUS design is due for a refresh, and a little too similar to the Carry for my tastes.. the BB was very appealing .. but it got costly when optioned out.. and also seemed a little tight inside.. I was all set to purchase the S60 base with 5 p. manual, but the options I wanted were not available with the manual .. In the end I ended up going to the SCAB 9-5, which was a little out of my price range.. but once I drove it, it just felt right.. roomy inside, yet still enough road feel, making it fun to drive...
As far as the S60T5 your considering goes, you won't have the issues surrounding the options that I had to deal with.. so your real issue will be deciding if its rear seat is roomy enough for your kids... (same problem with the BB). If your kids are fairly young, then you may be able to live with the back seat for a few years ..
As far as the Volvo S80 goes.. most of what I've read seems to indicate that the majority of its problems seem to have occurred during its first 6 months of availability ... since then it seems to be a reasonably reliable car. So I wouldn't let that sway you too much away from either the S60 or the S80T6...
Each of cars you're considering all have their up side... Good luck with your decision..
I'm hoping that i can get some input from the members here on what their experiences with the Volvo S60 have been(Good and Bad)? Where i might be able to find the best deal, and what lead you to buying the volvo over the other vechiles you where looking at? Also i was wondering if any one knows how well volvo cars hold their value
I'm just looking for a nice car, and a company that i can trust and wont try to bend me over like land rover has been doing.
All your input will be appreciated.
Hmm...a lot going on here while I've been down with Chicken Pox. I can't help but notice some inaccuracies in post #409. Mercedes has an earned reputation for safety engineering (even though their cars haven't exactly been setting any benchmarks in EuroNCAP, IIHS, or NHTSA tests in the past few years). For what it's worth (not much in my opinion), Volvo beat Mercedes (and everybody else) to market with side impact airbags on the '95 850 (which went on sale in '94). Further, and more significantly, Mercedes made the design flaw of putting their airbags in the door instead of the seat (they went on to fix the problem by making the bags larger in subsequent years to account for seat travel). Along with a slew of significant safety issues (e.g., BabySmart car seats that didn't work, 2-star crash test results in late 90s safety tests in EuroNCAP, the infamous A-class moose test mishap, etc.) I don't think I would be picking a fight in this area if I'm a Mercedes fan(Yes, Volvo has had problems as well but not this extensive - and their cars consistently earned top marks in crash tests on both sides of the pond.) I don't think Mercedes can claim to be the German leader in safety (that title seems to belong to BMW based on 3-series and 5-series test results). I await results for the new C-class which I suspect will do VERY well but I don't think it's been tested anywhere yet (and I've always suspected the current S-class would do at least as well as the S80 but I've never found a test for it either).
Regarding side-impact curtains (and several other safety innovations like electronic brake force distribution, stability control, etc.) these can not be credited to either as an innovation (although Volvo had them in production in '98 on the '99 S80 which I believe is a year ahead of Mercedes S-class). These items like so many others are the innovations of OEM suppliers like Bosch (which I believe made the curtain airbags that appeared on the Volvo S80 and were introduced the next year on the new Mercedes S-class). (In similar fashion the WHIPS seats are an AutoLiv invention, the ozone to oxygen catalyst comes from Engelhardt(sp.), etc.).
Don't get me wrong, Mercedes makes a very nice car and quite probably a bit more reliable than Volvo as well (I don't know about the new C yet though). However, you pay for what you get and then some. First, remember, Mercedes has a one- price policy. I can buy a Volvo S60 T5 for about $29.5k delivered through the OSD program. The reality for someone who refuses to pay sticker price like me is that Mercedes simply can't compete when it comes to value (a similarly equipped C320 would be MANY thousands more).
Regarding dealership amenities, I believe that Mercedes as a whole represents a more customer-focused organization in the U.S. (European operations for Volvo are world-class). However, that's not to say your local Volvo dealer can't beat your local Mercedes dealer for ownership experience (my favorite dealer includes current model year loaners, free car washes not only when you are in for service but whenever you want to stop by for one, factory built Volvo limos for local transport, etc.).
By the way, I don't know where you get your information but it's a bit inaccurate. The T5 has more torque than the C320 (243 vs. 221 ft.-lbs.) The S60 T5 hits higher HP and Torque numbers than the C320 and at significantly lower RPMs - in other words it's the Mercedes engine that has to work harder and produces less. I can also provide several online references to auto reviews touting the handling capabilities of the S60 (and I believe it was Germany's own Auto Motor und Sport that pointed out the fact that the FWD S60 has LESS under steer than the RWD e46 BMW). However, I do agree with the general sentiment that it is just under the BMW overall in this area (despite the German mag. review.) The Mercedes C320 Sport seems to be in between the 2 in this area.
Regarding maintenance costs - are you crazy? Neither of these cars are cheap but the Mercedes is definitely more expensive in the long-run. Call your local Volvo dealer and find out the price for an oil change and the price for the normal scheduled service. Now call your local Toyota dealer and ask the same questions. Do the same for Mercedes. I'll bet you'll be surprised to find out how close they all are with Mercedes on top? Part of the reason why you pay thousands more for Mercedes now is because you are paying for 4 years of maintenance up front. It all comes down to personal preference but I prefer to pay as I go during the warranty period so I can have a better feel for true operating cost so I can know whether I want to dump the thing before the warranty expires. With built in maintenance (a ploy started by BMW to get around the bad image they built themselves for high maintenance charges in the 80s) many owners are getting shock at actual maintenance costs outside of warranty periods (which are significantly higher than the discounted payments manufacturers make to dealerships for warranty repairs). In the long-run neither Volvo nor Mercedes will be cheap in this area (especially with Closed Area Networks and proprietary interfaces) but historically Volvo has been cheaper than Mercedes in this area. I suspect Volvo will start closing in on Mercedes since these cars now feature the same types of CAN electronics, the same Bosch or Siemens engine management systems, etc.
Hey, the 'free' breakfast sounds nice but we all know it isn't truly free right? (Again, you've already paid for it.) Regarding the police captains talk about safety - umm what? I'm not sure what sheltered lives some people may lead but I've got enough common sense to take care of myself while driving (I certainly see value in having police increase someone's situational awareness though - I just have a problem having the cost built into the dealership's operational costs that I have to subsidize with my purchase).
Regarding market share - both Volvo and Mercedes will make significant gains this year with these cars since both replaced older aged designs. However, long-term I suspect both will suffer from strong competition like the new A4 and more significantly new entrants like the Jag X-type (Jag name, great power and handling reviews, standard AWD, etc. for less money than the Mercedes).
spade, and many others, enjoy your Mercedes. They are very nice cars and certainly offer more prestige than Volvo (which is another reason why I drive Volvo). Personally, I don't think you can go wrong between the choices offered by Audi, BMW, Lexus, Mercedes, or Volvo these days. Each offers average to above average reliability, average to above average safety, etc (of course in the new era beginning now we have 200 hp Nissan Sentras, 227 hp compact Subarus, 8 and 12 cylinder VWs about to arrive, etc. so luxury cars are going to be really pressured to deliver more val
Plus if anyone has anything to add pertaining my previous post on my car buying decision please let me know. And i do understand that since this is a volvo group that their will be favoritism toward the volvo.
I'd put the 2.4T as a very good middle level choice, which isn't saying anything bad. But, if you have the money and want the extra toys, go for the T5.
--java
Thank you for your help.
Biggest problem in snow is usually the other guy who is not driving according to conditions.
As a point of reference I also operate a Blazer. Quite frankly I feel comfortable in either 850, or Blazer, and will operate whichever one is the handiest unless it is classified as the storm of the winter, in which case I would take the Blazer as it's got a little more pulling power.
I however have no doubt that the Volvo is the safer vehicle.
The Blazer belongs to work, Volvo mine, if I had to choose between which one I would buyif I has a choice and it was my nickel...... Volvo, no contest
sales deal went down nicely---I bought mid December and got about $1000 off msrp at a time
when T5s were more scarce and the dealer was very proud of them. Mine is loaded with all
packages except cold weather. (I had a MB C320 on order but changed my mind.) I got the
AOL coupon----service added things like the 10 CD changer, sun screen, etc with no aftermath
problems. I had the car in for a look after hitting a nasty pothole---they did a slight re-align.
They were very responsive. Having rolled up 7800 miles, it was time for oil change, tire rotation,
and their so-called 40-point check up. I scheduled an appointment three weeks in advance so
I could get a loaner car the day of service----they have a fleet on loaners (40s, 60s, 80s). I was
busy and blew buy my appointment. I called back and rescheduled appointment in two days.
I was there early but 10-12 cars were in front of me. Nevertheless, they had me in and out in
two hours. So with that exposure to Beasley Volvo -- so far, no complaints. Hope this helps.
S60 T5 - all the options - sticker $37,400
BMW 525i - Convenience package, premium package, Cold Weather package, folddown rear seats - sticker $42,845.
I currently drive a BMW 735il (1990, 177,000 miles) so it's hard for me to get away from the BMW but I also liked the S60.
1. I'm trying to decide if the BMW is worth the extra money
2. What can I expect off sticker on both of these cars?
Pro: Styling, responsiveness, and attention to design detail.
Con: Driver side blind spot (made better by the folding headrest in an otherwise superfluous touring package). The same pillar that reduces visibility also slaps air against the driver with the windows rolled down.
Also, for those interested have had great experiences with the service folks in San Antonio...though the dealership is undergoing a massive remodeling in the next 6-8 months.....
I ended up picking up the 2.4T with premium and touring package for 2% over invoice. Just a great experience up in Austin. They were probably willing to deal because they had a bunch of S60’s out back.
I am glad to hear that the service department is good in San Antonio
I can get a new 2001 S60 with everything that I want for about $33,000. I also can get a 2000 S-80 T-6 with 12000 miles for $34,500. What would you recommend and why?
Also, I went to the s-80 townhall and noticed a lost of complaints regarding the 1999 S-80. Were most of these worked out in the 2000 s-80?
I am looking forward to purchase a Volvo in Pittsburgh, PA. Do you guys know which dealer has a better service? and do u know which dealer provides storage for your snow tires and help you install it at a fixed rate if you purchase snow tires from them?
thx
I am very close to getting this car, but have some concern about the back seats. I know there is not much leg room for adults, but I am more concerned about child seats. Do rear-facing child seats fit in this car???
Thanks In Advance - Damon
Also, for those of you thinking about overseas delivery, I just ordered my S60 through the local dealership. The base price of each model is at least $2,000 less when you buy it this way, the options are all priced lower, plus I get $800 towards my air fare - quite a deal! But you have to do it soon to get a 2001 model, because the factory shuts down for the entire month of July, and after that they will be assembling only 2002s (at least that's what the dealership told me).
Nothing much more to complain, except for some plastic interior panels, which may come loose and rattle. Also black exterior strips start to discolor. Anyone know a better protectant than Armorall?
I wish the engine had a bigger displacement, or that i'd opted for manual. The car feels like a 1.3 liter Citroen under 2500rpm. It's difficult to spool the turbo without a clutch. My old Dodge was so much more responsive off the line...
My T-5 was probably one of the first ones on Long Island, and it has drawn positive attention. Now a few of my neighbors have bought S60s too.
Shellz
Pat
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Options are:
Platinum Green Metallic
Premium Package
Geartronic
Electronic Rear Head Rests
17" Alloy Wheel and Tire Package.
I leased for 48 months, 15K yr(47% residual), and money factor of .00095.
Volvo gave me $500 towards the purchase for currently owning another Volvo (V40), and waived the security deposit. Cost is $385/mo + tax.
I love the car! I have received many complements on it already in the first day. I highly recommend the Geartronic.
Overall, I agreed with the Edmunds review on all accounts. So far, my only complaint deals with the sound of the radio/amp/speakers. It is a weak. I am looking for some suggestions as to how to improve this. Any ideas???
In any case, for the money, I could not be happier.
I will let you all know how things go with the car.
Damon
It looks like it will cost me $300 + installation (reasonable???).
But the Parts Manager said I need to also purchase all the updated speakers as well, or I will only get distortion. This does not seem right to me - I think the speaders in the 2.4T with Premium Package should handle the extra power - any ideas or suggestions?
Either way, you should listen for yourself to see if you even need it (you might be surprised).
I ordered my T5 with the extra 200 watt amp pre-installed at the factory. The stereo sounds fantastic! Maybe at the limit there would be distortion, but the limit is way louder than you would ever actually set the volume. IMO, amps help tremendously.
I will tell you why I am disappointed with the stereo as is. It is loud, but not 'full' enough to me. The bass seems mumbled (especially when playing rock), and when the volume is low, the stereo sounds a little like it is coming from a tunnel. I know I am being picky, but I figure 4 years (plus) with the car, I better enjoy every minute.
By the way, installing the AMP only provides a 1 year warranty, not 4 year. Gotta love it.
If you do decide to upgrade the speakers, don't go with the Volvo ones. I looked into just upgrading the rear hatshelf speakers before I even received my car. The parts alone were well over $200, then you pay for dealer labor rates ($80/hr in LA). For that money you could do a lot with aftermarket products. Don't ask how much I spent on the CD changer though. That is priced outrageously, but there's not much of a choice, since direct-wired aftermarket systems like Alpine will not work with the new Volvos, and a software download is required. There is no such limitation on speakers.
Now that I have my car, I am not really considering any stereo upgrades as the sytem sounds absolutely great!
S60 2.4T
Metallic paint - Venetian Red
Premium Package
Touring Package
39 months
15,000 miles
$449 + tax
$1500 due at signing (cap reduction, first month, fees, etc.)
I don't know what they've set for the price of the car, but it seems like a pretty good deal. I'd like to know what others think about it. If anyone in the Atlanta area responds that's great, but input from anybody is appreciated.
- Joe
The deal sounds not too bad, but I think you need to get the following information from them:
Money Factor
Residual Percentage
Cap Cost of the Car.
For example, I just leased a similar car last week. It was the 2.4T with Metallic Paint, Premium Package, Geartronic, 17" Wheels, and Electric Folddown rear headrests. This probably has a very similar MSRP to yours (within a couple of hundred dollars).
I paid 1% over invoice (due to Ford X-plan), and then received $500 off the cap cost due to Volvo loyalty money. So, effectively I 'paid' less than invoice. Then, the acquisition fee ($500) and state fees ($200 or so) were added to the cap cost. I leased for 48 months, at 15K/yr, and this had a residual factor of 47%. The money factor was .00095.
This turned out to be $386+ tax per month.
My out of pockets were as follows:
First month payment
Dealer fee ($399!)
Registration
and ZERO security deposit (again due to Volvo loyalty program) totalling $1000.
Note that I put $0 money towards the Cap Cost, which I highly recommend.
Anyway, if you get the money factor and residual percentage, I will be able to help you determine the cost of the car.
I love the car, and highly recommend it!
Damon
S60 2.4 T
Venetian Red
Cold Weather Package
Premium Package
Touring Package
Geartronic
17" wheels
Dealer is offering price of $34,734 which is about $1200 off MSRP.
He is looking for a CCR of $1495, plus usual first months payment, security deposit, acquisition fee, etc totals $3062 to drive away.
Terms are 36 months /36,000 miles with monthly payments of $454.
What do you think of this deal?
Has anyone had problems with their S60 ?
What about the 2.4T versus the T-5?
Thanks to all
i am looking for an affordable car with a manual tranny and some kick. I have test driven the saab 93 SE, the subaru impreza (awd) wrx and the volvo s60 T5.
The t5, by far, was the most impressive car of the lot. Its size was very comforting, the amenities were endless, and it was the only one that hit 0-20 before I could take my eyes of the road to examine the speedometer, and similarly made the jump from 40-60 in 3rd gear in milliseconds. Even above 60mph in 3rd gear, the engine purred as if to say "is that all you can do?" - and, unfortunately, the dealer in the car said "sorry, but that is all i can let you do."
Also, the breaking and handling were excellent.
The volvo was the only car of the lot in which i felt that i was physically protected in case of an emergency-even though it did not have the awd that i might otherwise prefer.
I agree, however, that the shift box is very eccentric, I felt like i was driving "robo-car." However, my wife liked it so i guess i can't complain.
If i can justify the cost, i will pick up one of these babies as soon as i can!