Volvo S60

avolvofan · March 2003

I would disagree with volvomax - the DSTC option is a desirable option with AWD; even if you have to wait until the next model year to get it. AWD gives you superior traction (compared to FWD or RWD); however, if you start to get into a spin, only DSTC will be able to interrupt the event. Standard TRACS is only for low speed wheel spinning (such as would be encountered if you are starting from rest on ice).

An additional benefit of the DSTC implementation on the S60 AWD is the ability to disconnect the Haldex driveline in milliseconds. This has the benefit of further enhancing DSTC's ability to fight a spin in process.

Examples of when DSTC could be life-saving: 1.) Hydroplaning, 2.) Ice on a turn. There are probably other examples; however, these immediately occur. My basic conclusion is that I would not order a car without DSTC.

wmquan · March 2003

Stability control is one of the most important innovations in vehicles in the past ten years. It is recognized for controlling skids that lead to accidents, and rollovers. Even AWD/4WD-equipped SUV's benefit from having stability control to reduce the chances of rollovers. It's why manufacturers like Mercedes-Benz (which co-invented stability control with Bosch) have it on all their vehicles, regardless of trim level. It's why the top-of-the-line XC90 has not only DSTC, but the Roll Stability Control (RSC) variant.

The benefits of stability control are well-documented, from autojournalists to the NHTSA. I won't buy another vehicle without stability control.

You might be fine in an S60 without DSTC, but why get a Volvo and all its safety heritage, and be missing it?

volvomax · March 2003

Is it worth the $1000 for it?
How much winter driving do you do?
W/ the Haldex drive system I doubt you could get the system to engage in the rain.
Ice yes, but a little care in driving will go alot further than reliance on technology.
SUV's are a different story.
Their higher center of gravity and shorter tracks mean they need all the help they can get.
Unless you live in the Frozen North save your $

cmnott · March 2003

I found it invaluable this winter to the point where I would refuse to brake around a corner near my house (don't worry, I could see around te corner!) and always had a kick at watching the car do it's thing when I turned the wheel. It was like someone was driving te car. Brakes were applied and you can distinctly feel which wheel is getting the brakes applied.

With the AWD, you don't REALLY need it, but on my T5, it is invaluable. If I were you I would get it.

rollie · March 2003

Well, Volvomax I think you live somewhere where it doesn't snow or rain (like ARIZONA!)

Having owned these cars in the slop of icy winters I can attest to the true value of DSTC. I've posted links to winter test reviews of this system before and autojournalist called it the greatest safety innovation since the seatbelt! AWD has some uses but it doesn't compare to DSTC when it comes to an ability to prevent a skid. I've posted my story many times before so I'll be brief in saying that it saved me from taking a dip in the frozen Charles River in Boston a few years back.

I have DSTC on both of my cars AND WILL NEVER buy a vehicle without stability (yaw) control again.

Also, your insurance company will give you a discount to boot for having this system on your car (you have to tell them though).

-rollie

wmquan · March 2003

Is it worth the $1000 for it?

On an S60 it's $695, not $1,000.

At $695 it's a rather expensive option, I don't think Volvo should charge that much. VW charges $280 for ESP.

Or, better yet, Volvo should really make DSTC standard in all their vehicles. That would befit Volvo's position as an industry leader in safety. Sure it'll raise the cost of the vehicle, but not by $695.

It's also a shame that Volvo requires that one buys the Premium Package to get DSTC. Fortunately most buyers want that package.

It seems almost silly now to buy a vehicle without DSTC. Saab 9-3's have it as standard equipment. MB has it on all C-Class vehicles. Don't BMW 3-series all come with stability control too?

hclll · April 2003

Finally I saved up enough downpayment to buy a new ent-lux car to replace my 94 Max.

I wonder if the $5k discount plus $5k rebate deal on the S60 is still available now. If not, when can I expect another heavy discount?

And also, do you think an S60 2.4T can be had at $27k? If not, I have to think again.

Right now, an Acura TL can be had at $26500 and 2.9%APR. I like the look of S60, but its advantages such as good exterior, comfort, and safety, cann't beat Acura's smoothness and long list of features, if the two cars are not in the same price range.

ANy comments?

rollie · April 2003

You can get the S60 2.4t for $27.7 through Volvo's Overseas Delivery program (check their website) without negotiating (and that includes airfare, hotel, insurance, shipping, etc.)

I suspect you may even be able to beat this price at a dealership (i.e., talking to a regular salesman) if you wait for the end of the 2003 model line (which is very soon.)

Good luck.

-rollie

aveghte · April 2003

The leasing specials advertised on Volvo's web site are for the base 2.4 model and the 2.4T model with the sports package.

I have two questions.

First do the special lease deals scale up to models with the Premium and Touring packages? I don't know if these lease specials are due to cash rebates, lower money factors or both.

Second how are the cloth seats on the S60? When I looked at BMW's their leatherette seats appeared almost as nice as the leather seats while Mercedes cloth seats don't look that nice. One of the dealers in my area seems to have a significant number of base models in inventory.

Thanks for your help!

subyaudidude · April 2003

and I love it. The cloth seats are very nice, IMHO, though I believe they are tough to clean out cat/dog hair, so if you've got a cat or dog beware. The seats are very very comfortable.

volvomax · April 2003

No rebates on the S60, low payments due to very low money factors.
Because you can residualize the upgrade packages, a nicely equipped S60 isn't that much more.

Leather seats much nicer IMHO, also wayyy easier to clean.

aveghte · April 2003

I am thinking of getting the base S60. How is the manual transmission - does it shift easily? With the manual transmission, is the performance adequate or am I much better off going up to the 2.4T with the automatic transmission? During test drives of the Saab 9-3 with manual and automatic transmissions, I noticed that their manual transmission had much better performance than the automatic.

Also how is the base stereo in the S60? Is it like the Lexus RX300 stereo or is it barely adequate like the Saab 9-3?

subyaudidude · April 2003

Again, I have a base S60 with the manual tranny and it is very adequate. I'm not going to be beating a WRX anytime soon, but I don't need to, and I've never considered my S60 a sports sedan. As I said, it is very adequate, and I'm more than pleased with the performance I'm getting out of it.

peglegger · April 2003

I highly recommend it. I currently have a 98 Audi A6 quattro that slides all over. Don't get me wrong, I still like the AWD, but if it had ESP (Audi's version of DSTC), I would be much happier.

I had my car in for service last week and they gave me a 2002 A4 quattro with ESP. We just so happened to get freezing rain and 6 inches of snow that lasted about 2 days. What a difference the ESP makes! Unreal. I agree with the other post that said it almost seems like somebody else is driving the car. I tried to get it to spin out, took it into curves way too fast and it did its thing. Loved it.

Fortunately, I'm getting an S60R and I'm so psyched it has the DSTC. I was looking at the S80 and was considering forgoing the DSTC. Now I don't have to worry about it.

Pay the bucks, save on insurance, possibly get an extra buck or two on resale, and have an awesome feature.

i_yellow · April 2003

I'm considering the S60 as a replacement for my '98 S70 at some point in the near future, but I'm concerned with the Volvo's strategy of electronically limiting the engine torque to protect their transmissions. This is very obvious on the upcoming S60R (which has far more torque and subsequent acceleration with the manual tranny vs. the 5-speed auto) and the XC90 T6 (does the same thing to protect its 4-speed auto). In fact, I believe the first S80's had serious transmission failures due to poor initial execution of this technique.

Does anyone know which engine/tranny combinations use electronic intervention to protect the tranny (base, 2.4T, 2.5T AWD, T5 and R)? How effective is this approach vs. using a transmission designed to take the higher torque input? If its proven, I wonder how intrusive it is when driving the car hard. I had a loaded 2.4T loaner this week, which I LOVED, but its geartronic 5-speed did some unexpected shifting when I put it through its paces.

orangelebaron · April 2003

Local dealers are advertising base S60's (with manual transmission) for only $19,995! There seems to be no fine print. Does anyone know more about this?

volvomax · April 2003

End of year special from Volvo.
cars are being sold below cost.

ryoken · April 2003

The only catch to the end-of-year sale would be you have to pick a car from the dealer's inventory, no ordering.

bcj2 · April 2003

Does anyone have an S60 w/ nav? I'm looking at ordering an '04 S60 AWD next month (since they will have xenon finally as an option). I have an Acura TL, Lexus RX300 and Lincoln Navigator all w/ navigation systems. SOme are easy to work while others aren't. Any comments on the Volvo system? My dealer in Richmond, Va hasn't used it yet.

chitownflyer · April 2003

When will Volvo dealers start selling 2004 S60? Will there be big discounts on 2003 S60s?

avolvofan · April 2003

While there are shared elements between Volvo, Mazda and Ford, don't think for a second that the Mazda and Ford are S40s is sheeps clothing. The high strength steel that is responsible for the S40s superior crash performance does not make it into either the Mazda or the Ford. Additionally, some significant safety technology is exclusive to Volvo (WHIPS is one example).

volvomax · April 2003

Will probably be arriving sometime after May 1st.
Although there are still alot of 03's on the dealers lots.
I wuld imagine that Volvo will unveil somekind of year end sale program.
Currently they have special APR's and lease rates available as well as incentives on the S60 2.4M.

avolvofan · April 2003

Yikes! What happened to the sales year? If memory serves, 2002 was going strong at least into July, 2002.

rajpu2003 · April 2003

I need some advice - I have decided to buy the volvo s60. On carsdirect you can buy a basic model with auto transmission for 21000 until 4/30 - do you folks think that 1)prices will be cheaper after the new models come out? (I cant imagine that it would get cheaper) 2) that any of the turbo models are worth it? I'll mainly be using it to drive to work but I do appreciate nice cars.

thanks for the advice

avolvofan · April 2003

Regarding prices dropping further, they may if inventory doesn't move. However, if you decide to play the waiting game, you may miss out because someone else decides to buy the car(s).

Regarding the value of a turbo, drive both the turbo and non-turbo models and see which you like best. You are going to be living with the car, so get the equipment that you like.

subyaudidude · April 2003

With regards to the turbo ... if you're going to get an S60 with the auto tranny, then you'll probably want the turbo. The non-turbo S60 w/ the auto tranny is disturbingly slow. If you're willing to buy a manual tranny, however, then you could forego the turbo, as the base S60 with a manual tranny is still quite peppy.

rollie · April 2003

I don't frequent this board often but just came across a couple of unanswered questions I thought I should address.

First, i_yellow, asked about the transmission strategy in the S60. The tranny issue you alluded to was due to a specific worker drilling holes wrong in some early build (VIN #s less than 16000) 1999 S80s. The reason why the tranny is limited to 280 lb. ft. of torque had nothing to do with this of course and everything to do with the options for transmissions in cars with inline 6 cylinders turned sideways between the wheels. Quite simply there were no options so Volvo sourced a GM tranny (BMW does the same by the way for their 5 series automatics) and modified it for duty to hang off the end of the 6 cylinder engine. Unfortunately given the size restrictions they were limited to a 4-speed unit and not the most robust one at that. The current 4T65e (?) tranny can do a bit more (as evidenced by the aftermarket) before it starts to get into trouble but generally speaking you won't see Volvo moving the published numbers up on the T6 vehicles (XC90 and S80) until after the new inline 6 and or Yamaha V8 (NA and twin-turbo supposedly) arrive. For the S60 this is not an issue. It's a separate 5-speed (Aisin Warner I believe) and because the S60 has a 5-cylinder there's enough room between the sides of the engine bay to accomodate it. I would not be worried in the least (IPD thinks they can safely get another 30 hp or so out of the 300 hp S60R with it's current tranny.)

bcj2 asked about navigation systems. I've used quite a few including Volvos and I can tell you THEY'RE ALL DIFFERENT. Fortunately most are intuitive so you can learn them pretty easily. The good news with Volvo's system is that it IS THE ONLY ONE YOU CAN SAFELY OPERATE WHILE DRIVING! The reason for this is because the screen is motorized and deploys out of center of the dash top and the 3 buttons to control it are on the back side of the steering wheel hub-column juncture. In other words its the only system that keeps your eyes on the horizon and hands on the steering wheel where they belong while in use. It has some features that others don't and is missing some that others have. All in all it's a fine system (Acura's is sexier with the 3D display but the ergonomics are horrid like 95% of the rest of navi systems out there.)

Just my opinion...

Thanks.

-rollie
rdollie@att.net

evilpancakewom · April 2003

I use to be a huge Volvo fan but for the last couple of years I have questioned the reliability of their cars. My past Volvos have not reliable but two of them have saved my life to say the least. I would like to come back to Volvo (I own a Toyota Camry) if the reliability is good.
S60 is my first choice because I have seen too many forum post about the reliability of the S40 and early S80s.
My 92 Camry currently has 193,000 miles on it with only one fixed item on it (rear window motor). I'm considering a 98 BMW Z3 or a used Volvo S60. I know that these two are not in the same "league" but this is what it has come down to.
If possible I would like some S60 owners to please post any issues they have had with their S60. Thanks in Advance.

avestruz · April 2003

Hello -

I've got an opportunity get a new 2002 (yes... 2002) S60 2.4T w/ premium and climate packages.

Knowing that the 2004s are expected on the lot witin a month, I'm wondering what folks think would be a reasonable price? Sticker on the car is ~ $35,800. The dealer is very anxious to unload the car and started talking in terms of ~ 31K. This is has been tough because I can't find any info on how to "calculate" fair market value on a brand new car that is a couple model years old?

What do you think about the idea in general...? Good or bad move to buy / lease a [new] car that is already considered 2 years old?

Thanks for your help -

A.

dmarcus48 · April 2003

Whether or not this is a good deal depends on where you live and are you buying or leasing. Personally I would think that you could do alot better. I mean the car is already two years old. I would think around 26 or 27 would be more like it.

marcus123777 · April 2003

I own 03 S60AWD for 1mo
After 2 wks I started hearing a Thump-like
noise ,like a pong from a submarine sonar
sound, when applying the brake , even while in
Park. Otherwise car is great. Any ideas what may
be causing this? Thanks

evilpancakewom · April 2003

To: marcus123777

It is most likely your ABS (Anti-Lock Brake System). I had that same noise and feeling with my older Volvo when the ABS system was "working."

i_yellow · April 2003

Thanks for the enlightenment on the tranny questions. One last one: why does the S60R have 295 ft-lb of torque when coupled with the 6-speed manual transmission vs. only 258 ft-lb with the 5-speed automatic? Is this torque output of the engine or somewhere else along the drive line?

- Thanks

ryoken · April 2003

General rule of thumb, manual transmissions can handle more torque than automatic transmissions. I'd guess they had to detune the engine because they don't have an automatic strong enough to handle the power.

volvomax · April 2003

Exactly right, the auto gearbox in the R can't handle the torque output.
This is also what limits the XC90 T6 and S80T6 from having more power.
Different trannys same issue.
Its also why the R auto is nearly 2 sec slower than the R 6spd.

avolvofan · April 2003

There are aftermarket companies that specialize in building automatic transmissions that can handle significant engine torque. As an example, Yank Converters, Inc. takes the standard GM 4L60 transmission that has a design capacity of 450 ft/lbs of torque and increases the capacity to 600 to 700 ft/lbs of torque. Volvo has probably decided to forgo the additional expense of "tweaking" the automatic transmission to be able to handle the increased torque output.

Unfortunately, the quantity of Volvos that would likely be upgraded does not justify the upfront investment that an aftermarket supplier would have to make to be able to offer an enhanced transmission. Therefore, the automatic S60R is less than what it could have been.

autosaurus · April 2003

I have a 2003 S60 2.4T. Only about 3,000 miles on it..mostly highway!

I've noticed squeeks and rattles in the dash board..some in the same spot and others seem to occur in different spots.. sometimes the sunroof seems to develop a loud rattle and at other times it doesnt.

I had a 2000 S70 before this and it was rock solid in terms of body structure but the S60 (mine at least) seems to have poor build quality.

Anyone else experience these problems with their S60's.

Thanks

autosaurus · April 2003

I forgot to mention the loud knock that comes from the rear suspension everytime I hit a bump! (sounds like a broken shock!)

Thanks

volvomax · April 2003

Sounds like a broken suspension bushing, strut bushing or a broken shock.
Better get it looked at.

As for the Volvo trannys, there aren't any transaxles made by anyone that can handle more that 300 ft-lbs of torque.
All the high output trannys are longitudinal mounted, not transverse

redfive2112 · April 2003

A few weeks back I passed the 10k mark on my 2002 metallic grey S60 2.4T. My thoughts so far:

1) This car is very very comfortable. If you are considering a Volvo make sure to get the leather. I drove to Las Vegas a few weeks ago and it was the best trip I ever had. The hours flew by. This car really shines on the extended freeway trips.

2) We still get lots of compliments about the styling. Non car people are so surprised when they find out it's a Volvo! I never thought I'd like the way a Volvo looked either, but I feel they really hit a home run with the S60 body style.

3) The turbo 5 has good power on the freeway but could use more grunt from a stop. I'd love to see Volvo go to a 6 cylinder in the future, but I guess the 5 is kind of their signature engine.

4) Mileage is decent- about 22-24 mpg doing mostly stop and go rush hour freeway traffic.

5) Biggest complaint: The blind spots on this car still drive me crazy. It took about a month to get used to having to go "side mirror, shoulder, side again" instead of just looking back. Backing out in a crowded parking lot is an adventure. The back window is small and the B and C pillars extra thick so it feels like there's a lot you're not seeing.

6) The car has been our most trouble free vehicle to date. There was one issue the first week with a squeeky drive belt which was replaced the day we brought it in. The dealer provided us a loaner for the day so there was no inconvenience.

7) Awesome stereo.

Thanks for the time everyone. Consider me a satisfied Volvo fan.

Scott

avolvofan · April 2003

I couldn't agree with you more. I am 1K miles behind you, and my 2002 S60 AWD has been boring in its reliability. If you are looking for more punch from the engine, check out www.ipdusa.com. They offer a CPU upgrade that increases hp and torque across the board.

peglegger · April 2003

I'm disappointed with the drop-off (two full seconds 0-60!) in the difference between the manual and auto trannys in the S60R. I've ordered an auto version and will be picking it up in Europe in August.

I don't mind the normal two-tenths drop-off in 0-60 for auto trannys, but two full seconds....any idea if IPD will be offering anything to help out? Will this void the warranty?

I know that enthusiasts love manual, but I don't have a choice (artificial leg)....any thoughts?

Thanks!

avolvofan · April 2003

I doubt that there truly is a 2 second difference in 0-60 times. If there is such a penalty, then I would suggest a S60 AWD. The S60 AWD with IPDUSA ECU chip upgrade can do 0-60 in approximately 7 seconds, which would actually be faster than the claimed 2 second penalty for the S60R.

niel3 · April 2003

seriously thinking about the S60, 2.4T premier package and here is the deal i've been offered. can anyone tell me whether i should bite? sounds good to me....but don't want buyer's regret. lease: 48 months, 12,000 miles.....$375 a month + tax.....$975. down....money factor .002%. this is thru april 30th only...supposedly. would a better deal come up in may?

thanx for any advice....niel

Sylvia · April 2003

A New England Newspaper is looking to interview New England residents who own the Volvo S60R or Subaru WRX STi. Please respond by wed April 30 to sylvia@edmunds.com

Many thanks!

avolvofan · April 2003

Who presently owns an S60R? (They have yet to appear in the showrooms in northern CA.) The dealer that I have done business with said that they were expecting only 1 S60R in late May and that no further deliveries would occur until October - November.

cmnott · April 2003

Tell me abou it! I always feel I am about 6 feet closer than I really am, I look like a dummy in the parking lot, then with the wonderful turning radius, it is a 5 point turn! AArrgghh!

Not too bothered by the blind spots, just more thorough in checking.

I have 10,000 miles on my 2002 T5, and it is a great, great car. Fast, comfortable, killer system and well built.

Love this spring weather, feels like my car has 300bhp, my sticky summer tires are having a hard time keeping up...just like my friend in his S4 and his buddy's 330i!

rocketman5 · April 2003

Just curious if anyone other than myself has been unhappy with the reliability of the S60? I have a 2001 T5 that I bought new that has been nothing but trouble. While I love the car (when it's fixed), I have spent more time in the service department in the first 18 months I've owned this car than I have for all the cars I've owned for the last 15 years combined. From the start, it had a hard shift from 1st to 2nd. They finally put in a new tranny 3 months ago. The tail light assemblies on both sides kept falling out. They finally replaced all the brackets. The steering mechanism makes an awful grinding noise that apparently is due to loss of lubrication. I have to go in about once a month to get it regreased. This minimizes the problem but never eliminates it. I have had to replace all of the factory Pirelli tires (1 side wall blow-out and two side wall bubbles). My dealer has opened a case file on my vehicle but Volvo has offered nothing at this point. Thus far I have been extremely unhappy with the Volvo experience. This is my first Volvo and is about to become my last. Thanks in advance for any commments.

xmf314 · April 2003

Sorry to hear about the troubles you have had with your S60. I have a 2001 S60 which I also bought new. The only problems to date were a faulty door lock switch and a burned out taillight bulb. Since I plan to keep it a few more years, I am keeping my fingers crossed that it remains trouble-free. So far I am a satisfied S60 owner.

amazon · May 2003

I had the same grinding noise in my S70. THey kept lubricating the steering. Volvo did away with any grease zerks in '66, and now this. I own a '03 Acura TL now.

Volvo S60

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