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About a year ago I took my Intrepid to a local "Pep Boys" style automotive shop that had been doing my maintenance for years. I left EXPLICIT instructions with BOTH service managers to be sure to use ATF+4. I even left the local Dodge dealers number to facilitate their ability to get the fluid. When I returned I noticed that the service bill said ATF+3. I called my Dodge Service Manager who instructed them to PUSH the car back in--drain the ATF 3, flush the tranny with ATF+4 and then refill it with the proper fluid.
This is my third chrysler van - and probably my last. It is my wife's and she is pretty easy on them. We are now out researching other makes and will buy this week. She does not want another DC vehicle since she feels they don't back up their products. I just hope my Jeep holds up.
I have a 96 Grand Caravan with 160,000 miles on it. Put in a new tranny about 50k miles ago. Yesterday the tranny goes. Today they tell me $1650 to put a new (probalbly a re-built) in.
Just did a new air conditioner compressor about 500 miles ago (kicking myself).
My problem is, my new car (to replace the van) will not show up for about 6 weeks, so what do I do in the interim if I DON'T fix the van?
renting is gonna cost me over $1600 (for an econobox)
if I fix the van, I MIGHT get that money back when I sell it......(I know I will get SOME of it back)
grrrrrrr
I know some folks have been through this before.....so your ideas are welcomed.
:-)
I'm not sure if I am kidding.
Steve, Host
Dusty
1) It is interesting that of all the Dodge caravan forums the top three all deal with problems of some sort.
2) I just found out my brother had to fix the tranny twice on his 98 van with only 60K miles.
3) The bumper to bumper genuine Chryler 7/75 no deductible warranty is about $1700 for a new vehicle, $1800 for a 2003. Is it ironic that this is the cost of one tranny repair? Conversly my 2002 Camry 7/75 bumper to bumper no deductible warranty through Toyota was only $690.
You would think that after all these years Chrysler would have been able to indentify the probelm and correct it? Or is this how they keep their dealer service in business?
It's too bad because the van is roomy, comfy, gets decent gas mileage, is easy to drive and quite cheap. I guess Chrysler goes by the philosphy of 'sell it cheap; get back the money on repairs'.
I am very disapointed!
It looks like the most active current Caravan discussion is the Honda Odyssey vs Dodge/Chrysler minivans one.
Maybe you should count posts and compare to sales over in Honda Odyssey Transmission Problems while you're at it.
If you like Toyotas, the Sienna doesn't seem to have too many problems now that the sludge issue has been addressed.
Steve, Host
I don't believe in extended add on warranties anyways. Save the money for repairs which you most likely won't need anyway.
Never try to correlate Edmund's number of posts with actual reliability. Way too unscientific.
However, my son loves his 2002 GC Sport that now has 34K miles on it. My wife's Toyota Corolla wagon is very reliable but not comfortable for long trips.
Face it, the quality/reliability gap has closed so much now that it should be beginning to not be an issue, however it still is because perceptions, once established are hard to change. I admit, I am guilty of this myself.
The fact is that with the millions (literally) of DC MiniVans on the road, statistically speaking there have been very few problems. Last year my wife and I had decided to trade in her 1998 GC Sport for a new 2003 GC ES, however, when the new ES came in we decided to pick it up AND keep the 1998 as well. Why? Simple, because it has been so reliable. So far, with nearly 90K miles on the clock, its only unscheduled repair was a dead battery at about 50K miles. Now, maybe I'm just being an apologist for DC, however, I think that that qualifies as a reliable vehicle. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
1) I have posted several times in the generic Caravan forum. I seldom get a response. I seldom see new responses. Funny one post in this forum though provokes several. It shows what people are reading.
2) Honda DOES have a tranny problem (and an issue w/CRVs catching fire.) Still I bet they resolve there problem in months not a DECADE!
3) I bought the Camry after a poor experience with a Merc and the fact that the Taurus/Sable was due to be replaced. Sludge WAS a concern at the time (thats when Toyota was still denying it was an issue) so I got a new 2002 with a supposed sludge free engine. Time will tell. The car is great except for some rattles.
4) While our experience with Chrysler has never been great (Sundance/Neon) I really like the Dodge caravan for reasons mentioned in posts above.
You see Steve, I am an equal opportunity offender. I do not think any one brand is as good or as bad as perceived. However in this case it does appear Caravan owners do seam to have an abnormal amount of tranny problems. And it still appear the Problems or Tranny forums gets way more hits than the generic topic.
Do Chryslers sell more than Hondas. Hell Yeah. They should since they cost anywhere from $4k to $10K less. Does this mean just because the Caravan is cheaper it rides less comfortably, accelerates slower, offers less amenities? Thats what that forum is all about, I bet it does beat the Honda in many comparisons.. Does that mean I want to buy a van with a tranny that may need replacement 3 or 4 times over its life. No way!
I still ask the question, what is it about the tranny that makes it so trouble prone.
No offense intended....
I think perception is a lot of it. I had an awful '74 Volvo and I've never considered getting another, so I've been carrying that bias around for 30 years now.
My brother's '00 Caravan seems to run fine, and it's as comfy as my '99 Quest and has a few more bells and whistles.
So I'd buy another DC van and almost wound up with one in '98 instead of the Quest. I'd sure research the problems discussions and the JD Power ratings etc. while shopping, but what I read around here tells me that DC trannies aren't any worse than a lot of others. Honda's may be the most problematic right now, and the MPV's had a lot of hard 2-3 shift issues until recently.
Cars really are a whole lot better than they were when I got my license back in '68.
Steve, Host
Ummm, did I miss something? I thought that the Honda tranny problems have been in existence for quite a few years and may still not be solved.
Our current neighborhood has more than its fair share of Hondas. In fact, it is the single most common marque on our street with something like 9 of the 21 cars being Hondas. As it turns out, we are the only household on the street with small children that doesn't have either a Volvo wagon or some kind of a Honda. Instead, we have bucked the trend and have two Dodge GCs and a BMW (most of the other toy cars on our street are from MB). A little informal polling has revealed that of the 9 Hondas (either Accords or Odysseys), 8 of them have automatic transmissions. Of those 8, 3 cars have required a total of 4 transmission replacements (our neighbors' Oddy has needed two). On the other hand, the combined mileage between our two Caravans is well over 100K, and as I said before, the only unscheduled repair has been the battery on the 1998.
From where I sit, the tranny failures on the DC vans are more than a little blown out of proportion. We haven't taken it even remotely easy on either of ours. We haven't added oil coolers, or performed flushes ever 90 days, hell, I think the 1998 is still running on the factory fill of tranny fluid. What we have done is drive them in heavy traffic in and around both the NYC and Boston areas, and then to add insult to injury, we then force them to do Soccer Mom duties and trips to the dump/recycling center. Talk about being ridden hard and put away wet.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Follow-Up Test: 2005 Chrysler Town & Country
Steve, Host
You are definitely tougher on brakes and tires than we are on our 96, which is on second set of tires with a lot of tread left at 76K miles and the rear brakes are still original, front brakes were just replaced a few months ago.
My son's 02 GC Sport has zero problems at 34K miles.
Knowing of these and other very reliable Chrysler vehicles is gradually erasing my disgust with Chrysler caused by the most ugly experience I had with my 1970 Dodge van.
Honda Odyssey Transmission Problems forum started Aug 27, 2002 and now has 614 posts.
Chrysler has sold approximately 8,000,000 minivans while there are less than 1,000,000 Odysseys sold.
There are more transmission problems with the Odyssey in half the time and Honda has sold about 12% the total number that Chrysler has sold.
Appears that Chrysler minivans now have more reliable transmissions than the Honda Odyssey.
Most of the miles for the first 8 years were highway with the majority metropolitan over the last 4-5 years. I would still drive the car if I could and I did think briefly of fixing the transmission, but I don't want to push my luck.
<<<
The question starts with the assumption that Chrysler mini-van transmissions ARE more trouble prone. Unfortunately the number of people that have testified to high mileage trouble free transmission experiences gets completely lost.
If these transmissions were truly "trouble prone" then it would be the result of design. Yet, I know that the majority of Chrysler mini-van transmissions do not have a problem, so obviously something else is going on.
I've written before on this subject. I work for a large business machine manufacturer who currently maintains a national fleet of approximately 10,000 mini-vans from Chrysler, Ford, and GM. In the years that we've had them, only the '97 Chrysler versions had a higher problem or failure rate than their competition.
As I've eluded to many times before the available data that everybody is working with on this subject is highly flawed. There are problems with reporting and with data collection.
The transmissions used across the Chrysler mini-van line are different depending on engine type. People is the transmission repair industry seem to be at consensus that the 3-speed versions are solid as a rock. The later 4-speeds proved to be very reliable as well. The versions that seem to be getting negative attention are the A604 and its descendents, fully electronic, adaptive 4-speeds.
Unfortunately those black dots in the Consumers' Report can't differentiate and hence the perception is that All Chrysler transmission are "bad." The fact that Chrysler version outnumber Honda and Toyota versions by as much as 6-1 makes them susceptible to statistic bias. And since we know by human nature people are more likely to voice a negative opinion than a positive one, reading anecdotal reports on the web is about as unreliable an indicator as one gets.
If you haven't noticed Honda Odyssey and Toyota Sienna, and others, have had transmission issues, too. I can tell you that my company's Ford Windstars have always had more transmission problems than Chrysler, and in most years the GM Astros and now the Venture series (although much better) have been notable for transmission problems equal to or exceeding Chrysler's.
But only Chrysler seems to be getting the vast majority of the transmission attention!
In my observation I see mini-vans of all types being maintained like cars but driven by trucks. It is not unusual to see any make or model of three year old mini-van with 60-70,000 miles on it, and I think R.L. Polk data backs up the fact that the mini-van segment of the market accumulates mileage quicker and longer. It is not unusual nowadays to see 7-8 people in a mini-van towing a small camping trailer or a couple of PWCs, boat, ATVs, or what-have-you. Mini-vans are, however, basically sedan platforms with stretched and enlarged green houses. Their physical ability to handle and carry more I think makes them susceptible to abuse from both a maintenance and capability perspective.
As far as reporting the current available data is highly flawed. We don't what type problems or the severity is driving the data. It doesn't tell us anything about the demographics of the owners, how the vehicles are driven, how they're maintained, or what other conditions prevail that could have an impact on perceived reliability.
On top of that, no one can ever convince me that the auto data is not blatantly strewn with bias, both intentional and unintentional. When people believe a product is bad, they become psychologically convinced by every negative report, and when they have a problem it serves to amplify there growing perception. Likewise, there are people that believe they drive the best and anything else is going to be something less. Because everyone she runs into -- owner's and non-owners alike -- my wife believes that our Toyota Avalon is a superior car in it's class. Of course we've spent more money on this car in repairs that any two previous cars of any manufacture. Two, yes, two transmission repairs under 70,000 miles, just to name one problem we've had. And Toyota prices aren't cheap, either.
A lie often repeated eventually becomes the truth, as they say, and I believe that the perception of transmission problems with Chrysler mini-vans has become self-fulfilling.
Best regards,
Dusty
That Chrysler tarnished their record regarding transmission reliability is pointed out in the February '91 Consumer Report where they stated the Ultradrive transmission on Grand Caravan and Grand Voyager in their April '90 survey had problem rates of 20 and 19%, respectively. If I'm not mistaken these vans had stamped on the dip stick to service with Dexron AT fluid which was the factory fluid at the time of sale. Soon the reformulated fluid was introduced as one of many steps to reverse what was happening to the owners where the failures were unrelated to service or use but due to inadequately tested new engineering. Looking at CR April '04, the Caravan V6 has above average transmission problems for every year reported '96-'03. Is it scientific. No. Is there better data to look at? Tell me where to look. Roy
1) The van is less expensive.
2 Folks do not appear to keep them as long (look in any paper, I can always find many one year old Dodge vans but seldom can find anything newer than a 3 year old Toyota or Honda)
3) In most surveys I have read in the auto rags, the tranny is shown as a problem.
4) Dodge charges a heck of a lot more for their extended warranty than Toyota...I have not checked Honda.
and surprising:
5) The suckers keep selling like hotcakes!
Its all very strange!
Item 1 True
Item 2 The one year old ones are likely coming out of corporate fleets and rental car fleets, which DC sells a lot more to than Honda and Toyota. They have more plant capacity, thus use the fleets to absorb any excess capacity. It is cheaper to keep the plants running than shut them down, so fleet sales make a good buffer. Also, you will see more used DC minivans for the simple reason that there are more on the market because the volume per year of new ones is much higher than Honda and Toyota has been.
Item 3 Transmission issues is more historical problem with older models than recent years.
Item 4 No extra charge for the standard 70k engine and drive train warranty on current models, so why buy an extended warranty? Extended warranty is a big profit center for the manufacturer and dealers. You don't need it!
My son's 2002 GC Sport is very nice and is noticeably quieter than another son's 2001 Ody EX.
Perception may not be the same as reality but I now perceive the Odyssey and Sienna to be less reliable than the GC or T&C after reading in many forums in the Town Hall.
Owners reporting in the Town Hall are more reliable sources to me than un-named, faceless sources used by Consumer Reports.
Maybe we should see what Edmunds reviews say comparing these vehicles. We could ask the host to comment on the ratings objectivity as well. Roy
Steve, Host
The Midterm Reliability Ratings cover 1-3 years.
The Long Term Dependability Ratings cover 4-5 years.
Not all models have all three JD Power Star ratings.
Here's a link for the T&C ratings for example.
Steve, Host
Late reply, but I hadn't checked here in a few days...
The DC vans have a 7/70 powertrain warranty standard, which covers the trans. Not sure why you are looking at the bumper to bumper if you are concerned w/ the trans.
And I don't know where you got your prices from, but I purchased an 04 T&C in February amd the cost of a 7/60 bumper to bumper was $525 (I bought it mainly because of the NAV system, and the fact that it included free service loaners as well as roadside assistance)
The price for 7/75 was about $800
One can argue no generalization is worth much, however, one does get a sense for which are likely to be below average, mechanically, and which above average. My personal experience with a '95 Caravan has been a 4+ to date but that means nothing compared to these combined data sets. Roy
Steve, Host