Heh. The article ends by wondering whether Impreza loyalists will warm up to a hatchback. My personal answer is: if they had offered the STi in a hatch today, I would have bought it!
So now, to get a turbo you MUST get leather and a moonroof? :confuse:
To get stability control you MUST get Nav and spend a fortune? :confuse:
The current VDC is $1150 more than a similarly equippped Tribeca 5 pass LTD, so they should throw in Nav for no price increase so that model adds value. If they raise the price by $2000 it would just be crazy.
The only good news there is you can now get the H6 for less. Seems like the turbo and H6 swapped positions for some models, i.e. the H6 is now the more affordable one while the turbos will cost more.
2.5i SE must be the 5 speed model, maybe it'll get sportier tuning.
Hey, maybe THAT is the model getting 17" rims. That would make sense.
The (evidently) higher price to get stability control goes in the opposite to desired direction for a company ostensibly appealing to sensible drivers. Perhaps Fugi pays Bosch way too much for the parts....even though I believe Bosch makes them in the U.S. It would be no surprise if stability control is legislated for light trucks fairly soon.
I think the problem might be how the mechanical AWD and rear LSD interacts with the electronics, they're afraid of binding perhaps. Like what some people complain about with the WRX and ABS.
VW offers stability control for $280. Volvo adds it for $695. Acura includes it on everything but the RSX and NSX. Why would someone pay $1000 to get it in a what Subaru hopes to become - a premium vehicle?
Pretty soon, it'll be a common feature offered at increasingly attractive pricing.
Should already be part of the package or at the very least an option, but it has to be less than $1000, when other brands of 'cheaper' pricing have it included. Yes, it's to market up sales, but if there's a strategy to this, then Subaru has missed out on the meeting. The way competition does business, should give Subaru an enlightenment on stuff like this.
It already exists, why not place it in other Subaru vehicles.
If they add VTD/VDC and 5EAT to the base OBW and bump the price less than $1K over the current 4EAT, I'll be buying.
At minimum, add VTD/VDC to the base H-6.
Adding the safety features to the base models brings in the customers. Once their in the door, you can then attempt to move them up to a Limited, H-6, Turbo, or Tribeca. The key is you have to get the customers in the door first!
But VDC only would work with models that have VTD now.
The AT option on Legacies and Outbacks w/o VTD was $800. The AT option on the '03 and '04 GT, which included VTD and SportShift, was $1000. Also, the AT (w/ VTD) option on the WRX is $1000. So, you can deduce from this that VTD itself (w/ 4EAT) adds $200. To go further, to add the 5EAT w/ VTD option on the '05 GT is $1200.
So, VTD on a 4EAT is $200, add another $200 and you get a 5EAT. A total of $400 list for a 5EAT w/ VTD over a 4EAT w/o VTD.
So the question is, how much will VDC add to the 5EAT w/ VTD price?
Interesting that there is a 2.5 SE. I like that they brought back the base H-6 Outback wagon. I wonder if it will have cloth seats? Not sure how I feel about base GT and XT being dropped... It looks like the 5EAT will not yet replace the 4EAT.
Availability was poor on the base/cloth XT/GT models -- I would have gladly saved a few $grand with cloth and no moonroof, but they were impossible to find when I was buying and I ended up with a LTD. I imagine the base models make up a low % of sales for whatever reason. Despite my cheaper tastes, people seem to be buying up the LTD models in droves so it was probably a no-brainer to make that the only model for 06. Still, it's pricey -- the XT and GT will no longer have a budget entry model. That will certainly limit GT sales to people also pricing the WRX -- the base GT was actually in the same price range as a loaded WRX (and for the money, the GT was certainly a better car). Now there will be a definite price gap between the GT and WRX.
Yep, moving upmarket will definitely leave some customers behind on the low end.
Re VDC, integration, and pricing: I think this might be a good time to remind people why I like Subaru so much. Not just my Subaru cars, but the company itself. At Subaru, engineers win arguments -- the win over marketing people, over stylists, and over bean counters. If they aren't putting VDC in their vehicles across the board, my bet is that there is a technical, engineering based reason why not.
Re leaving some customers behind on the low end: the low end is becoming very, very crowded with a plethora of Asian newcomers. Subaru may not have a lot of choice in real terms except to move upmarket. At the same time it makes me a bit sad too. There are an awful lot of base model Subies around these parts, and I really don't see anything coming up from the new low end makers that compares to, say, a base Impreza. I don't know what those people are going to buy the next time. But I also can't imagine that I'm the only person who notices that market niche...
And that technical reason is that they need to engineer a new electronic stability control system that can interact with their existing mechanical AWD systems, i.e. they're not integrated like VDC.
Street prices for the Legacy have finally dipped below $20 grand again, so that should appease the value shoppers. I've even seen 2.5i automatics for $19.2k IIRC. I don't think they should go any lower than that.
At Subaru, engineers win arguments -- the win over marketing people, over stylists, and over bean counters.
I will respectfully disagree with this. IMHO, many engineers tend to design elegant solutions - not what customers want to buy. Now an engineer who is a car guy and understands what the market will accept is the best of all worlds. An engineer working in a vacuum telling marketers, stylists, and accountants to but out of his/her design wouldn't survive long in the real world. Engineers have to work within the constraints of what marketing, styling, manufacturing and accounting tell them and those disciplines have to listen to what engineers have to say as well. It has to be a shared exercise. Gone are the days when engineering would throw a design over the wall to sourcing and manufacturing who built it and told sales to mark it up and sell it.
I've handed design engineers specs before and had them come back with something completely different because they thought it was a better design. Well guess what, the customer didn't care if it was a better design. It was the wrong size, the wrong shape, and the wrong price. We wasted weeks because of engineering arrogance.
I didn't mean to imply that engineers are always right, nor that engineers at Subaru always win all arguments. But it is an obvious fact that engineers hold a lot of influence when it comes to major vehicle design decisions.
The fact that all the cars have boxer engines is evidence enough for me. Marketers would have nixed them long ago for their rumble, designers would have replaced them with transverse inline engines to gain more flexibility in front end design, and bean counters would have blown them away for their extra complexity (read: cost) compared to inlines. But there they are, still in every Subaru sold here. Why? Low center of gravity, straight line power delivery, inherent balance of rotating components.
Another interesting trait of Subarus is their ease of maintenance and repair. Ask any mechanic, or even anyone who changes their own oil. They'll tell you that a lot of thought went into making the cars easy to maintain. That also comes straight from the engineering basis and bias of the company.
I have VDC on my Armada, and it's standard on all armadas. it's very un-intrusive too. I also get front and rear electronic LSDs which is basically the VTD system on the subies. I like it so far, Subaru really should just put VDC and the LSD via brakes on all subies except for the WRX/STi.
RIP 9-2x. That's really all Saab had that was unique.
In the big picture, Subaru is almost positioning itself to spin off of GM and become fully indy again.
Think about it - no 9-6x. 9-2x a flop at 1/4 projections even with massive incentives. And Subaru didn't use a GM platform to begin with. Then Subaru partners with Toyota for hybrids, instead of GM.
Is it me, or are they ripe for a split? GM could use the cash.
So now GM is losing money on the sales of the Saabarus. That's not what they had in mind. Forecasts called for 8000 sales/year and I'm sure they did not have $4500 cash on the hood in mind at that sales pace.
I hope Subaru breaks away. I don't think they've benefitted much at all from GM.
it sounds like a lot of the stuff we've been asking for here on Edmunds over the past several years are finally coming to fruition. Thank you Patti, wherever you may be.
In the upfront section they have a photo and discussion about the Saab 9-6 and 9-5, and how the 9-6 is not going to happen anymore. They have a pic of a supposed 9-5 to be built off a GM global platform, but it looks like a ringer for the Tribeca in dimensions and general shape/form. I bet that photo is what the 9-6X would have looked like. It looks good!
ROFL... I would probably take it for a spin, but I can't stand ATVs. I only ride motorcycles.
I have ridden a heavily modified Yamaha Banshee though, and it was scary fast. (twin cylinder 2 stroke 350cc... this one had nitrous and was at least 400cc.)
Since the 2006 OB/Leg isn't a brand new model launch, I would expect to see official information in the dealers by early summer. The early shipments would probably hit dealer lots by late summer.
- Available Navigation System - Slightly improved horsepower in the N.A. 2.5 - New Special Edition model (adds pwr driver seat & moonroof) - HID Headlights
Lets see- -Don't want the NAV since I have the Garmin -The improved HP is on the base model, correct? In which case that does not apply since I'm looking at the XT -Any word on which models would get the SE? sounds like the base 2.5i -HID's would be nice. Not sure if it is worth waiting for (assuming my wife and I can agree).
Sounds like some deals may be had on the '05.
Has anyone heard anything about SOA extending the warranty? 3/36K is getting to be on the low side for most manufacturers.
Honestly, I would be surprised if SoA extends the warranty, unless they do it as part of the move upmarket. Right now, most of the mainstream manufacturers that have stronger reputations- such as Honda and Toyota, for example, use 3/36K as the bumper to bumper. Heck, Honda's powertrain warranty is only 3/36K! Like Toyota, Nissan, etc.... Subaru's powertrain is 5/60K.
Bob- did I understand one of your earlier posts correctly in that there may not be any base Legacy GTs and OB XTs anymore, just the GT Limited and XT Limited?
they will issue press release for these until they annouce pricing for 2006. Note that now legacy is available with beige interior, at the outset it was coming only in black.
so, outback XT & VDC in the 34-35k now ? how is this justified with tribeca only 1-2k above this ?
Comments
they sold very many of these 3.0 base models in the past.
Cheers,
-wdb
So now, to get a turbo you MUST get leather and a moonroof? :confuse:
To get stability control you MUST get Nav and spend a fortune? :confuse:
The current VDC is $1150 more than a similarly equippped Tribeca 5 pass LTD, so they should throw in Nav for no price increase so that model adds value. If they raise the price by $2000 it would just be crazy.
The only good news there is you can now get the H6 for less. Seems like the turbo and H6 swapped positions for some models, i.e. the H6 is now the more affordable one while the turbos will cost more.
2.5i SE must be the 5 speed model, maybe it'll get sportier tuning.
Hey, maybe THAT is the model getting 17" rims. That would make sense.
-juice
The (evidently) higher price to get stability control goes in the opposite to desired direction for a company ostensibly appealing to sensible drivers. Perhaps Fugi pays Bosch way too much for the parts....even though I believe Bosch makes them in the U.S. It would be no surprise if stability control is legislated for light trucks fairly soon.
Dave
Right now there is so much pro-stability control publicity that they are missing out on what is easily the number one most marketable safety feature.
I'm telling you, they need a 2nd system that is more affordable, and soon.
Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, Scion, even Kia have it standard, and for under $20k.
-juice
And add VW/Audi for only $280! Since it seems to also be from Bosch could there be a discriminatory pricing policy by Bosch?
Dave
I think the problem might be how the mechanical AWD and rear LSD interacts with the electronics, they're afraid of binding perhaps. Like what some people complain about with the WRX and ABS.
-juice
Pretty soon, it'll be a common feature offered at increasingly attractive pricing.
It already exists, why not place it in other Subaru vehicles.
At minimum, add VTD/VDC to the base H-6.
Adding the safety features to the base models brings in the customers. Once their in the door, you can then attempt to move them up to a Limited, H-6, Turbo, or Tribeca. The key is you have to get the customers in the door first!
DaveM
Subaru needs to market a 2nd type of stability control, perhaps simpler and cheaper.
-juice
The AT option on Legacies and Outbacks w/o VTD was $800. The AT option on the '03 and '04 GT, which included VTD and SportShift, was $1000. Also, the AT (w/ VTD) option on the WRX is $1000. So, you can deduce from this that VTD itself (w/ 4EAT) adds $200. To go further, to add the 5EAT w/ VTD option on the '05 GT is $1200.
So, VTD on a 4EAT is $200, add another $200 and you get a 5EAT. A total of $400 list for a 5EAT w/ VTD over a 4EAT w/o VTD.
So the question is, how much will VDC add to the 5EAT w/ VTD price?
DaveM
Availability was poor on the base/cloth XT/GT models -- I would have gladly saved a few $grand with cloth and no moonroof, but they were impossible to find when I was buying and I ended up with a LTD. I imagine the base models make up a low % of sales for whatever reason. Despite my cheaper tastes, people seem to be buying up the LTD models in droves so it was probably a no-brainer to make that the only model for 06. Still, it's pricey -- the XT and GT will no longer have a budget entry model. That will certainly limit GT sales to people also pricing the WRX -- the base GT was actually in the same price range as a loaded WRX (and for the money, the GT was certainly a better car). Now there will be a definite price gap between the GT and WRX.
Yep, moving upmarket will definitely leave some customers behind on the low end.
Craig
They have to convince the bean counters that Subaru will sell more cars by keeping up with advances in tranny and AWD technology.
Question: does the Spec B Legacy have VTD AWD? Because if so it's the only manual tranny so far to mate up with VTD, I believe.
-juice
Re leaving some customers behind on the low end: the low end is becoming very, very crowded with a plethora of Asian newcomers. Subaru may not have a lot of choice in real terms except to move upmarket. At the same time it makes me a bit sad too. There are an awful lot of base model Subies around these parts, and I really don't see anything coming up from the new low end makers that compares to, say, a base Impreza. I don't know what those people are going to buy the next time. But I also can't imagine that I'm the only person who notices that market niche...
Cheers,
-wdb
Street prices for the Legacy have finally dipped below $20 grand again, so that should appease the value shoppers. I've even seen 2.5i automatics for $19.2k IIRC. I don't think they should go any lower than that.
-juice
I will respectfully disagree with this. IMHO, many engineers tend to design elegant solutions - not what customers want to buy. Now an engineer who is a car guy and understands what the market will accept is the best of all worlds. An engineer working in a vacuum telling marketers, stylists, and accountants to but out of his/her design wouldn't survive long in the real world. Engineers have to work within the constraints of what marketing, styling, manufacturing and accounting tell them and those disciplines have to listen to what engineers have to say as well. It has to be a shared exercise. Gone are the days when engineering would throw a design over the wall to sourcing and manufacturing who built it and told sales to mark it up and sell it.
I've handed design engineers specs before and had them come back with something completely different because they thought it was a better design. Well guess what, the customer didn't care if it was a better design. It was the wrong size, the wrong shape, and the wrong price. We wasted weeks because of engineering arrogance.
The fact that all the cars have boxer engines is evidence enough for me. Marketers would have nixed them long ago for their rumble, designers would have replaced them with transverse inline engines to gain more flexibility in front end design, and bean counters would have blown them away for their extra complexity (read: cost) compared to inlines. But there they are, still in every Subaru sold here. Why? Low center of gravity, straight line power delivery, inherent balance of rotating components.
Another interesting trait of Subarus is their ease of maintenance and repair. Ask any mechanic, or even anyone who changes their own oil. They'll tell you that a lot of thought went into making the cars easy to maintain. That also comes straight from the engineering basis and bias of the company.
rgds,
-wdb
-mike
* 17" wheels standard
* Premium package will finally be available for wagon.
Bob
In the big picture, Subaru is almost positioning itself to spin off of GM and become fully indy again.
Think about it - no 9-6x. 9-2x a flop at 1/4 projections even with massive incentives. And Subaru didn't use a GM platform to begin with. Then Subaru partners with Toyota for hybrids, instead of GM.
Is it me, or are they ripe for a split? GM could use the cash.
-juice
The Baja, for instance, sells more than 4 times better. And it's a flop.
-juice
Bob
I hope Subaru breaks away. I don't think they've benefitted much at all from GM.
-juice
Bob
They were told that Saabs would sell at higher prices, but now they very nearly overlap, and with Saab you get perks like free service.
So they might steal more WRX intenders.
-juice
Joe Spitz is usually pretty good with info.
Bob
Bob
Craig
S3X is based on the Equinox/Vue/Torrent.
Whoppee, a 4th clone.
-juice
http://www.stiatv.co.nz/
Bob
-juice
-juice
Element is also successful, as is PT Cruiser (given its age) and ... the 300? Are you kidding? That's the hit of the year.
In fact few cars on that list sell poorly, so perhaps "ugly" is a predictor of success?
-juice
I have ridden a heavily modified Yamaha Banshee though, and it was scary fast. (twin cylinder 2 stroke 350cc... this one had nitrous and was at least 400cc.)
~Colin
-mike
Mark
Since the 2006 OB/Leg isn't a brand new model launch, I would expect to see official information in the dealers by early summer. The early shipments would probably hit dealer lots by late summer.
Ken
- Available Navigation System
- Slightly improved horsepower in the N.A. 2.5
- New Special Edition model (adds pwr driver seat & moonroof)
- HID Headlights
Build date for 2006 is May 26th.
-Don't want the NAV since I have the Garmin
-The improved HP is on the base model, correct? In which case that does not apply since I'm looking at the XT
-Any word on which models would get the SE? sounds like the base 2.5i
-HID's would be nice. Not sure if it is worth waiting for (assuming my wife and I can agree).
Sounds like some deals may be had on the '05.
Has anyone heard anything about SOA extending the warranty? 3/36K is getting to be on the low side for most manufacturers.
Mark
Bob- did I understand one of your earlier posts correctly in that there may not be any base Legacy GTs and OB XTs anymore, just the GT Limited and XT Limited?
Joe
so, outback XT & VDC in the 34-35k now ? how is this justified with tribeca only 1-2k above this ?