Subaru Forester (up to 2005)

ateixeira · April 2004

I e-mailed my sister to get the name of her body shop.

It's on Howard Ave, I checked on Map Quest. I'm trying to get the name for you.

I had my Miata fixed in Germantown but the paint is peeling so I wouldn't recommend them.

-juice

joybell · April 2004

So I noticed....It is also interesting that their highest score is for "minimal problems", meaning that there are some problems. Subaru loyalists, of course, expect "no problems"! For example, one of my "minimal problems" with my Forester was a coolant leak because of cheap faulty coolant hose clamps. That sort of "minimal problem" shouldn't happen. Still, the link confirms that the "big" problem is the engine, so my cousin is probably right.

leo2633 · April 2004

3 Subarus in our family, and all 3 have had problems. All is well with the remaining two right now (knock on wood), and we love them despite the problems we've had. As of right now, we'd buy another in a heartbeat. And juice, shut up, I'm jealous!

Len

ateixeira · April 2004

"engine" is pretty vague.

My guess is they are referring to the head gasket failures we've seen, and keep in mind Subaru is now covering those for 8 years or 100k miles.

Actually, they're using a coolant conditioner to prevent the problems in the first place.

A survey might say "engine" for Toyota's sludge issue, and to be honest Toyota never really came up with a fix for those, they went half way by extending the warranty.

Honda's survey might say "tranny" even though they were more proactive and replaced the transmissions plus offered extended coverage on those.

Bottom line is that doesn't measure the manufacturer's response, which affects actual reliability plus the financial impact on the owner.

Would you rather have A) a car that had one problem that cost you $500 to fix, or

a car with two problems that were fixed for free plus you get a free extended warranty?

I'd choose B.

Better yet, secret option C), which involves B plus manufacturer support from Patti of SoA.

C all the way, baby. ;-)

-juice

p0926 · April 2004

Well I think we'd all prefer option D, which is not having any problems in the first place ;-) But if you're going to have a problem then sure, having the manufacturer stand behind their product and fix it is far preferable.

-Frank P.

ateixeira · April 2004

No such thing as a perfect car. I honestly believe that. Now, some owners will "tune out" a minor buzz or rattle, or just crank up the tunes, but I believe no car is completely perfect.

Perhaps it depends on your level of tolerance. I'll send an OCD Club member out to inspect any car and I bet they'll find a few issues at least.

-juice

ateixeira · April 2004

Just for kicks, I'll analyze my Miata with a fine-toothed comb. It is reliable, never let me down once, never failed to start, despite being 11 years old.

Applying OCD Club standards, here are my nit-picks:

* valve clatter when cold
* occasional moderate ping under load
* shifter stiff when cold (better now w/synthetic)
* stock lighting dismal, unacceptable (E-codes now)
* CD skips like a school girl
* stiff ride, shocks may be spent
* hood prop rod retainer clip broken (twice)
* center console latch broken (replaced)
* top leaked, cracked, window hazed (replaced)
* leaves collect in front quarter panel
* water sloshes in side sills
* all speakers basically spent
* shifter turret cracked, leaks gear oil
* oil dipstick not consistenty accurate

I'm pretty resourceful and have been to a couple of junk yards to replace some of the minor parts. And yes, I still consider this car reliable, none of the issues ever made it fail as a form of transportation.

But show me a car with no problems and I'll sniff out 2-3 easily, I bet.

-juice

joybell · April 2004

""engine" is pretty vague.

My guess is they are referring to the head gasket failures we've seen, and keep in mind Subaru is now covering those for 8 years or 100k miles."

As far as I know that extended warranty is only for 1999-2002 vehicles, not the newer ones that have the same engine (like my 2003 Forester). You may argue that Subaru made modifications but to the normal consumer, including me, it is still the same engine sold in NA today, without any other choices except the more expensive H6. If Subaru is so confident about the 2003 and up 2.5L then why don't we get that warranty for our vehicles too?

once_for_all · April 2004

a reasonable synopsis of the world and its imperfection: "a good auto mechanic will always find something wrong with your car".

Second corrolary: "and, it will usually be something different than what you brought it in for".

John

ateixeira · April 2004

Simple, there hasn't been the demand for it. If it turns out it's needed, I'm sure they will. Don't you think?

Continuous improvement plus the fact that they employ the coolant conditioner from the factory should put folks at ease.

FWIW, we've had 5 of the 2.5l Subie engines in my family and none of the 10 head gaskets ever leaked. I'm not worried, and my '98 falls outside of that range also.

-juice

joybell · April 2004

Not many 2003s have hit 50,000 miles yet. One internet user's 2003 Forester has had a leaking HG, and that was at 43,000 miles. So it looks like it is still an issue. Time will tell.

p0926 · April 2004

Juice the optimist - the glass is half-full :-)

Joybell the pessimist - the glass is half-empty :-(

Personally I believe in giving the benefit of the doubt until given adequate cause to think otherwise.

-Frank P.

tincup47 · April 2004

Has just turned 95,000 miles and other than a couple of lazy O2 sensors causing MIL lights it has had no problems. Head Gaskets have not leaked as of yet.

joseph50 · April 2004

The main wish had been for a more powerful engine for the Forester.
Done with the turbo.
What are your subsequent nominations?

c_hunter · April 2004

Well, I said it already, but I owned several Hondas that were perfect (kept them 70-80,000 miles). I'm as OCD as the rest of you lunatics, so perfect means perfect! My WRX has been perfect so far, but it only has 6000 miles on the clock. Our other Subarus have had assorted problems and are definitely a notch below my experience with Honda. But I am still happy with them. I'm a loyal Subaru customer, but that will not cloud my vision of perfect!

Craig

paisan · April 2004

Hmm no vehicle sold in the US is perfect, at least not in my eyes. I always do minor mods on any car I own.

SS Brake Lines
Sway Bars
Brake Pads, Rotors, Fluid
Struts, springs
Stereo
Tint
Driving Lights
Tires

And that's just a start!

-mike

rsay777 · April 2004

here is the list of Suby's I've owned

79 Wagon, no major mech failures, did rust badly at 5 years was junked at 130k miles

82 GL, 1 front cv joint at 100k miles, leaky water pump.

91 Legacy wagon, 1 front cv joint 85k miles. Had both replaced. Traded in at 125k miles

03 Forester X. No problems 17k miles.

ozman62 · April 2004

is obviously in the eye of the beholder. With the number of parts in a modern car, and the number of people involved in its manufacture, it would be a great feat to build a 'perfect' car. Personally, I can accept a few minor flaws or problems, as long as they can be taken care of relatively painlessly, and don't impact the rest of my life too greatly. Yes, I fret about my headgaskets, but you know what, I hardly ever think about it when I'm actually driving my F, other than an occasional glance at the temp. gauge. I would certainly rather drive a car that maybe has a few inherent 'issues' but still makes me smile everytime I drive it, than have a perfect, but boring ride. My opinion only. On another note, how about those Flames!!! The monkey is dead! Woo hoo!
Regards,
Owen

ateixeira · April 2004

Perhaps I'm lucky but my Forester is still on its original brake pads. So it's optimism and luck, maybe.

-juice

elleng · April 2004

Juice,
Were you able to get the name of that body shop for me?
email me at egreenfield@mindspring.com
Thanks
ellen

ateixeira · April 2004

My sister didn't reply to my e-mail. Of course she's an engineering student so she doesn't have much spare time.

I want to say Joe's Auto Body, but I'm not sure. He's on the left as you go down that hill.

There's gotta be something closer to you, though. That place is not really close to a Metro stop or anything like that.

-juice

leo2633 · April 2004

As much as I have talked about the problems I've had with my 2001 Forester S, here is something to brag about: I recently replaced all 4 brake pads. The rears were down to less than 10% of their material left, but the fronts had at least 50% left. Pretty impressive. I would never had expected the rears to wear out faster than the fronts, and I'd NEVER expect to get 85K out of 1/2 a set of front pads. Good job, Subaru.

I agree with the sentiments expressed above. Even with their "issues", I'm still happy with my Subarus.

Len

pnassmac · April 2004

...know if the clutch shudder issue has been addressed?

My '03 Forester has had this problem for the past 20K and am going to make it a warranty issue for my local dealership and SOA. At the minimum I expect a replacement regardless if the clutch flaw has been fixed. That will in a way compensate in part, but not wholly, for my experience.

p0926 · April 2004

That will in a way compensate in part, but not wholly, for my experience.

Did I miss something? What kind of bad experience did you have?

-Frank P

sambeezie · April 2004

We live off a very rough road and have to cross a creek bed to get home daily. Commute 60 miles/day. Have kids in Fla and Cal, and a goddaughter 6 hrs away. So our driving demands are significant. We
are replacing a still-running Caravan with 260,000 miles (repairs got to be higher than car payments) which we sold to the mechanic.

After much research, the Forester seemed to potentially give high-mileage dependability, resilient handling of our wide range of road surface requirements, and excellent gas mileage. Internet comparisons of this model showed good safety and reliablility ratings.

We located an '01 (manual transmission) Forester with 38,000 miles, meticulous records from an owner who was obsessed with maintenance. CARFAX, etc. checked out. Got it from a leasing company;
it was a trade-in. Good credit union financing. Felt good about the whole process. And...my wife LOVES driving it.

Hoever, as we are closing out the paperwork, the finance officer (who located a credit union loan for us with great rates) is doing a full-court press on a third-party service warranty. The car note is
for five years (we plan to pay it down early, but need low payments to begin with), and, based on our high mileage annually, the 100,000
"wrap-around" warranty (power train warranty still in place for more than 20K) would only cover us for 2 years.

Even though it's only 20.00/month more, it would, over the life of the loan, cost an additional 1200-1300 dollars. My general sense is that I'd be better to pocket this sum, guessing that any high-dollar repairs would likely come AFTER 100,000 miles. Still, each time I speak with the finance officer about finalizing the loan, she says "I hate to see you do this without the extended warranty". I'm guessing she is on commission selling these service contracts. Still, I thought I'd ask for the expertise of the Subaru 'townies'.

Thanks in advance for your opinions !

ballistic · April 2004

Extended warranties are among the highest-profit items a dealer sells. Draw your own conclusion from that fact.

I'm a CPA. I never purchase insurance to cover any loss that I could otherwise handle without major financial strain. I would never buy an extended warranty on any automobile, and I always recommend that others decline them.

p0926 · April 2004

First off, yes you surmised correctly that the loan officer gets a commission on every extended warranty sold.

Now should you spend $12-1300 for an extended warranty that will only cover you for two years? I would say no and agree with your guess that any costly repairs are more likely to occur after the warranty has expired. However, to some people an extended warranty is worth the cost because of the peace of mind it provides. Statistically speaking, you're almost always better off self-insuring (unless you're risk adverse).

-Frank P

once_for_all · April 2004

the upgraded clutch was installed in all MTs built after Dec. 2002. My XS '03 was built in December and apparently has the old style clutch in it. So far, no troubles. It is an abrupt clutch ( not ala suicide style in the early choppers)but yours might be of the old generation clutch and might benefit from the new unit. Regardless, it would be good to start the ball rolling by bringing it up with your dealer.

FWIW, I test drove a 5 speed X model and it shuddered right off the lot. I then hopped in my XS and it was smooth as silk. That is the main reason I bought the XS. The sales manager was aware that the X model on his lot had the clutch problem; he had that look of "man this is going to haunt me again someday" when I mentioned it.

John

elleng · April 2004

Normally, I would never purchase an extended warranty but on my new forester I did. I put between 20 to 25k miles on my car a year so that means the standard manufacturer warranty gets eaten up really fast with me. So I purchased the 5 year 100,000 subaru gold plan which includes the roadside assistance from Subaru. I got the warranty for 849.00 which was Fitzgerald's cost. Hopefully I won't need it but at least I'll be covered if something major goes wrong and I'm up in mileage.

suydam · April 2004

I never get extended warranties, and certainly not on a 3-year old car. My feeling is, you buy a car you think will be reliable. With a used car, put away some money for repairs as needed, and you should be fine. I'm surprised they gave you the hard sell, though. Usually that is reserved for the "new car buying experience"!

kens · April 2004

Wow, juice. How many miles on Sandy now?

I replaced my original pads at around 70K, IIRC. I was starting to get some pulsating while braking so I went whole hog and replaced the front rotors with the larger WRX rotors and pads. The rears just got the pads swaped out.

Ken

ateixeira · April 2004

I'd avoid 3rd party warranties like the plague. Get a Subaru Gold or skip the idea entirely. There is a topic here on Edmunds about that in News & Views, ask the experts and they'll confirm you're better off with a manufacturer warranty or none at all.

In fact, a 3rd party warranty is not really a warranty, it's insurance. They are selling you insurance with enough loop holes that they'll never have to pay a claim.

Look at Ellen's deal, not bad, $850 for 100k miles and that includes roadside assistance.

-juice

ateixeira · April 2004

61k now Ken, and late for my 60k service. I even have my original spark plugs still in there! 25mpg average has remained level, still.

-juice

kens · April 2004

What kind of OCDer are you? 61K and yet to perform the 60K service! ;-p

My Forester mpg has drifted downward somewhat over the last 20-30K miles or so. I used to hit 25mpg regularly, but now it's been around 23mpg. All variables within my control (air pressure, oil type, air filter, driving style) have remained the same. Perhaps it's just old age?

Ken

rsholland · April 2004

I think we're past that on our '01 Forester! We had the 60K service done over a month a go.

Bob

leo2633 · April 2004

I just hit 88K on my '01 Forester. I'll be doing the 90K service in another month or so!

Len

bnaegele · April 2004

Wanted a 'clean' installation of XM radio, so had the unit [Terk XMRVRFMOO1] mounted in the back [the windshield side] wall of the covered central dash storage tray. It's completely invisible -- although less convenient for station changing.
Cost was $302 at Circuit City [including 4-year replacement warranty]. It works through the factory AM/FM CD changer unit just fine [except I hardly ever use the CD changer now].

taft4 · April 2004

Through the 18 months I owned my Subie (2003 XS with premium and leather) I have enjoyed reading this board and appreciate the helpful hints I gleaned from it, but now having traded the car I will move on to another board. A couple of points on departure. First off, I would never buy another one. Because my wife is disabled, at the time of purchase we were looking for a car that was small (we had a 97 Towncar), that was not too high to get into nor too low to climb out of, and so we ended up with a SUV. Prior to purchase we test drove a CR-V, Rav 4, Tribute, Santa Fe, and the Subie, each for at least 50 miles, and decided on the latter. After only a month or so of regular usage we realized that we had made a mistake. Cute as it was, it had a noisy engine, suffered from very noticeable road noise, and rode like it had no springs. At night when opening the front doors it had only one very small overhead light to illuminate the darkness, and the AT shifter was the goofiest design I have ever encountered. Every car I have ever owned, starting in the early 50s had some sort of stop or notch that one felt when pulling the shifter down from park or neutral. On the Subie one can as easily end up in 3 as in Drive, a peculiarity that even CR criticizes.

I admit that the car has many attributes, especially its size, turning circle, driver seating height, and trouble free operation. Over almost 13,000 miles I averaged 20.1 MPG which was not a disappointment, unless I compare that to some of the figures posted on this site, most of which I do not believe. I dont drive fast, nor start up fast, and most of my driving is in a suburban setting.

Four wheel drive, except for the northern climates, is an absolute waste. I live in a Chicago suburb where we have little snow, and few hills, and 2 wheel drive is more then adequate. This is the third car I have had with ABS, the previous being a Crown Vic, and a Towncar, and their ABS systems were much more effective on slippery surfaces than is the Subies.

In my working years, among other things, I owned a car rental company and had a lot of experience in realistically valuing used cars, almost all of which I sold at auction. It is never wise to trade in an almost new vehicle because of its early depreciation, but if you find that to you it is a miserable means of transportation, then you have to bite the bullet as we did. Consequently I was pleased with the depreciation of my Subie. I purchased it for $24,250 (MSRP $26,802) and its true trade-in value ended up being $17,000. I had it 18 months, drove it 13,000 miles, and it depreciated $7,250 ($400 a month) over that period of time. Of course, the longer one keeps a car, the smaller the annual depreciation.

Our new vehicle (Passat GLX V6 Sedan) has 8 way power seats with a lumbar support, both for driver and passenger, and so we start anew hoping this choice will much more satisfy our needs. Again, thanks for all your useful comments, and a special thanks to Juice for his replies to a couple of my inquiries.

rsholland · April 2004

It sounds like you were used to more luxurious rides prior to your Forester. Now you've got a clearly more luxurious vehicle in the Passat V6. So I'm not really surprised in your reaction to the Forester. What I am surprised in, with your background in the car business, that you bought a Forester in the first place.

Good luck with your VW.

Bob

p0926 · April 2004

It does sound like the Forester wasn't the best choice. However, if you think the Forester has a harsh ride and is noisy it's a good thing you didn't get a truck-based SUV :-) I wonder about the seat height in the Passat being relatively low though. I would have thought that perhaps a more premium brand SUV (Acura or Lexus) would offer a good seat height while providing for a quieter ride and adding more of the creature comforts that a Towncar owner is accustomed to ;-)

-Frank P

pnassmac · April 2004

Thanks for the input. If your story is accurate, it's exactly what I wanted to know.

My 03 Forester has been shuddering since the 10K mark. It's become so irritating I've not recommended the Subaru's to patrons who visit my retail establishment who know I own the vehicle as mentioned by coworkers.

I work in the sporting goods industry surrounded by customers all day long who fit Subaru's demographic - in part, generally young, active, and affluent. It becomes easy to get to know each other and transport eventually comes up. Many trust me because of the sporting goods equipment I recommend and the positive experience they have using it. So trust is paramount and when they ask me about the Forester, as much as I hate saying it, I don't recommend the manual version. That's happened a couple of dozen times so far. And I usually see the results not long after - Toyotas, VW's, and Hondas, some GM's.

And by coincidence, Taft4's opinion regarding AWD and its necessity seems to mirror the experience of a Honda salesman I spoke to recently test driving an Element. He's seen demand for 2wd version increase this model year. The argument he's heard recently against AWD is there's just not enough snow to justify the extra expense for AWD here in mid-Ohio. I realize it's handy for those wet days too, but for the minority out there, it's over-rated. Personally, I like having it.

Anyway, Once_for_all.Thanks

mnf · April 2004

AWD is a must in the area i live in (Spokane Wa ) with a average of 50+ inches of Snow I am getting around 23-25mpg in mixed driving with a little more than 2000 miles. On the Passat Consumers reports only rate it as FAIR for reliability. They are quiet and nice but also needs PREM fuel with a average of 21mpg. Good luck they are a nice ride but all in all not a subie either....

dcm61 · April 2004

The argument he's heard recently against AWD is there's just not enough snow to justify the extra expense for AWD here in mid-Ohio. I realize it's handy for those wet days too, but for the minority out there, it's over-rated.

Or in this case When you don't get it, you don't get it.

DaveM

sfarinacci · April 2004

My 2002 Forestor has been in the shop for almost 2 weeks. I had reported some clicking noise months ago and they told me it was the ECM. Had it flashed and it started doing it again. Brought it back in and they told me they thought it was a piston. Ordered new piston and called me last week and said they couldn't get it to slide on properly without forcing it so they were ordering me a new motor. It only has 18,000 miles

njswamplands · April 2004

that we get in northern nj let alone the snow. the extra traction on slippery conditions is something i will never give up. as far as noise, kids kill any car with that. harsh ride? its called feel of the road versus the boatmasters.

sfarinacci · April 2004

My 2002 Forestor has been in the shop for almost 2 weeks. I had reported some clicking noise months ago and they told me it was the ECM. Had it flashed and it started doing it again. Brought it back in and they told me they thought it was a piston. Ordered new piston and called me last week and said they couldn't get it to slide on properly without forcing it so they were ordering me a new motor. It only has 18,000 miles

p0926 · April 2004

The argument he's heard recently against AWD is there's just not enough snow to justify the extra expense for AWD here in mid-Ohio. I realize it's handy for those wet days too, but for the minority out there, it's over-rated.

I think we should clear up some of the misperceptions about AWD. First off, any old front wheel drive car with winter tires provides adequate traction in the snow so strictly speaking, very few people really "need" AWD. In the same vein: you don't "need" airbags but they make you safer, you don't "need" turbo-charged engines but they make you go faster, you don't "need" air conditioning but it makes you more comfortable, and so on.

In the case of AWD, although you may not need it, it improves a vehicle's handling under all conditions, even on dry roads. So if youre someone who considers handling a priority, then the added cost of AWD is worth it.

-Frank P

rsholland · April 2004

Same was said of the need of power steering on compact cars 30 years ago. That was true, but remember those old non-power-assisted steering systems had very slow and unresponsive (often 5+ turns lock-to-lock) steering.

So, no you don't "need" AWD, but it sure makes driving safer and easier to deal with in a variety of driving conditions, and not just snow.

Bob

ozman62 · April 2004

You're right on the money. I don't need it, I want it :-)
Owen

kens · April 2004

Sorry to see you go, but it looks like a near-luxury sedan fit your needs better to begin with. I don't believe any of the vehicles you cross-shopped (CR-V, Forester, RAV4, Santa Fe, Tribute) would have given you the creature comforts and soft ride that you may have been accustomed to with the Towncar. The GLX V6 is a nice vehicle and I'm sure you'll be happy with it. It's quiet, well appointed and has a reasonably compliant ride.

Echoing some of the sentiments of the group, AWD is actually not a waste for mild climates. There's a reason why an increasing number of luxury, near-luxury and sport cars are offering AWD.

Hey, but just because you don't own a Subie doesn't mean you still can't contribute. We've got quite a few non-owners that frequent our boards.

Ken

Subaru Forester (up to 2005)

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