Mazda3

mdaffron · August 2003

As Mazda owners and fans, we need to write Mazda Japan and tell them NOT to let their domestic dealers and the press tout the Ford influence at all! Maybe they think of repeating "Duratec" as a selling point for U.S. customers -- you know, a little reassurance in a "proven," "durable" design by a "well-respected" domestic manufacturer -- then again, we need to tell them that we're trying to make the reassurance that Ford has kept its paws (mostly) out of Mazda's far superior engines!

Let the word spread forth from this discussion forward -- we prefer Mazda3 engines not because they are Ford, but because they are Mazda!

(My apologies to the late JFK for that loose pun on his moon speech!)

Meade

wongpres · August 2003

OK, let's clarify the Mazda3 engine situation here.

N. American engine choices are 2.0l (target 148hp) and 2.3l (target 160hp). Both of these engines can be found on the Mazda6 (2.0l not in the N. American-spec Mazda6). FWIW, the world-wide Mazda3 engine choices also include: 1.6l, 1.4l, and two 1.6l diesels (the 1.4l and diesels come around 6 months after launch).

Aside from the displacement size, the 2.0l has NO RELATION WHATSOEVER to the 2.0l found in the current Focus or current Protege.

Instead, the 2.0l is part of the same engine family as the 2.3l (the 2.0l doesn't have SVT though). This family was introduced in 2001. Mazda is Ford's 'center of excellence' for 4-cylinder engines and therefore primarily developed this engine family for sharing with Ford.

So what is Ford's influence on this engine family? Basically, Ford gave Mazda the basic block, some Cosworth processes, some $$$, and told Mazda to come back with a family of engines that met these criteria:

- ensure the manufacturing process is cheap & modular enough that plants around the world can produce it. In fact, there are plants in Mexico, Japan, and Spain that are building this family of engines.
- ensure the manufacturing process allows to easily increase/decrease displacement size so that a lot of variants can be produced
- compete with the best 4-cylinder engines out there in terms of: performance, fuel-efficiency, weight, robustness, and technology. So basically, Honda's 4-cylinders were the benchmarks. However, Honda have since made another step forward and are still the benchmark.
- ensure the engine can be easily tuned for both performance and emissions. For example, the 2.3l PZEV on the Ford Focus is simply a non-SVT and PZEV-enabled derivative of the 2.3l in the Mazda6 and Mazda3.

The last point is interesting, because the family of engines that Mazda gave to Ford is kind of generic (in this particular case, no SVT). It is then up to the other individual Ford brands to tune the basic engine to their liking (e.g. develop their own variable-valve timing or not have it at all). By doing this, each of the brands can kind of customize the engine themselves, and more importantly, the average consumer won't realize it's really a shared engine because things like hp numbers will be different.

A perfect example of this is the 3.0l in the Mazda6. By allowing Mazda and Jaguar to customize certain parts of the engine, the engine has different sound & performance characteristics on the Mazda6, Jaguar X-Type, and Ford Taurus (yet the Mazda6 & Taurus engines are assembled in the same plant). To go even more extreme, I've heard that Aston Martin pretty much just combined two of these together in one of their V12's (though I admit, 'just combined' is a gross simplification).

So the point is that the article isn't really correct in saying the Mazda inherits engines from Ford, it's much more interconnected than that.

creakid1 · August 2003

"Passengers will be comfortable, but would fare better in one or two rivals. This is surprising, as the 3 is the best indicator yet of what we can expect from Ford's next Focus."

So what if the new Golf & even the Renault Mégane offers more comfort. They're not even close in handling/steering. Even the Focus I's ride comfort is slightly less comfortable than the current Jetta/Golf & maybe some French rivals, too.

newcar31 · August 2003

looks like Mazda might be comin out swingin' with the new Mazda3. Motor Trend is guessing that the 2.3L will make around 180 hp in the Mazda3. Wonder why they would guess that?

the_big_h · August 2003

you sure it's not 'paper HP' that just magically appears, a la RX-8 and '01 Miata???

*runs away*

:-D

newcar31 · August 2003

I was wondering the same thing....but I really hope Mazda wouldn't make the same mistake 3 times.

I'm exited that the Mazda3 might have 180 hp. 180 hp combined with the handling abilities that Mazda is building into this car should make a pretty nice "sport compact car". It should give a lot of the cars in it's class a run for their money. Horsepower numbers don't come out of thin air, so I'm guessing that someone at Mazda "leaked" this info to Motor Trend.

mazdafun · August 2003

There's always variation from one engine to another. The Mazda3 is supposed to have a more freely-breathing intake and exhaust as well, so maybe that's how they're getting a bit more HP out of the same engine. What RPM was that at?

Yeah, you'd better run Hank (shaking imaginary stick in the air). How dare thee!

qbrozen · August 2003

here's some info from p.43 of the new October C&D:

U.S. engine choices will be a 150-hp 2.0 liter and the 2.3 4-cylinder from the Mazda6 upgraded to 170 horsepower.

...on a sinuous proving ground near Paris and found the car had most of the sharp precision of a Focus without feeling quite as stiff over the bumps.

dinu01 · August 2003

You mean 170HP with the 2.3L engine in a small car? And if the car can still maintain what the PRO already does best, this could be IT!

Now will the 2.3L engine be also available in sedan AND hatch?

Dinu

zaimon · August 2003

From the looks of things, the 3 is looking to be SWEET car! Enough so, I've taken the 6 off my list: too much for my budget. I'm eyeing a 3 hatch/wagon right now.

qbrozen - this is probably obvious to the rest of you - that quote makes me think the 3 will be 170 horses (I also received Motor Trend's car preview), or will the 2.3 in the 6 be upgraded? Then so, would the engines in the 6 be upgraded?

wildhawk14 · August 2003

With its good looks and engine options, this looks to be a Jetta killer if prices don't get out of hand. That's the only thing I want to find out now. I assume it will be somewhere above Civic/Corolla and less than a Jetta.

creakid1 · August 2003

Not just the Volvo, but somewhere I read said the upcoming Golf/Jetta's getting 5-cyl. Maybe that was a misprint.

bluong1 · August 2003

is equipped on Golf in europe for many years.

boggse · August 2003

Yes, it is a VR5, narrow angle "vee" engine. 2 cylinders on one side and 3 on the other. Weird.

Volvo V40 replacement getting I-5 turbo from V60.

qbrozen · August 2003

If the 3 really does come with a slightly upgraded 2.3, I don't think you'll find the same output in the 6. Reasoning is to avoid getting too close to the V6 power. Just a possibility.

newcar31 · August 2003

You might be right. Also, in order to get the extra 10-20 hp, Mazda might have needed to borrow a little grunt from the low end and put it in the high end, which wouldn't be good in the heavier Mazda6.

bigdaddycoats · August 2003

what else is in the new C&D. Did not get mine yet.

baggs32 · August 2003

"Yes, it is a VR5, narrow angle "vee" engine. 2 cylinders on one side and 3 on the other. Weird."

How on earth do they keep that thing from bouncing around (balanced)?! Wouldn't they have to counter-balance it with weights making it almost as heavy as a V6, thus defeating the purpose?

Either that or some REALLY strong engine mounts!

bluong1 · August 2003

How on earth do they keep that thing from bouncing around (balanced)?

very simple, they divide the circle in five: the five cylinders are 72 degrees out of phase to each other, and the whole thing is balanced.

panamaltd2 · August 2003

Mazda is not going to be stupid and give the 3 more horsepower than the 6. The old saying, "You get what you pay for" still stands strong. The Mazda3 will be an amazing car no doubt but pretty soon you guys will have talked your way into the 3 having a 250 hp rotary with the 6 being downgraded to the 1.6 liter from a '99 Protege DX. The autoexpress review clearly states that the 3 is not as much fun as the 6. Come on people, Mazda is not run by complete idiots.

wongpres · August 2003

Dudes, the N. American-spec 2.3l is going to have max of 160hp, not 170hp or greater like what the mags are guessing.

Just go to MazdaUSA's site and check out the Mazda3 flash - it says so right there.

creakid1 · August 2003

since there isn't much to begin with.

Peak hp number can really get people excited(& boost their ego, too, if they own one).

I personally don't like engines that are strong-high-end only, because you have to rev high all the time in order to feel the superiority over the low-end bias ones. That's a lot of costly grinding & wear.

qbrozen · August 2003

Ok, so if it has 160, then fine, not a problem, but to panamaltd's comment, you're talking about the top engine of the 3 vs. the bottom engine of the 6, so what's the problem if the 3's top engine had more power than the 6's bottom engine? Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

groovypippin · August 2003

I agree with you, but I think Mazda will save more HP for a MazdaSpeed version of the car - which I am quite convinced they will produce.

It does strike me, however, just how fixated we have all become on HP. 160 HP in a compact car would have been nothing but a wet dream 4-5 years ago - now we pine for more.

I personally think this 2.3L in this car is going to make for an extremely entertaining package. I think I'll be satisfied with it.

chikoo · August 2003

in Mexico?

groovypippin · August 2003

Not for the Mazda3. Because the Mazda3 is being built in Japan, they will source the engine from Japan as well. But I believe the 2.3L in the Mazda6 is built in Mexico, but I stand to be corrected.

wongpres · August 2003

chikoo:

Yep, groovypippin is right on with the engine production locations: Hiroshima, Japan for Mazda3 and Chihuahua, Mexico for N. American-spec Mazda6.

Again, Ford's plan has been to have production facilities around the world that can produce the same engines to ensure engine production is close to auto-assembly plant.

dinu01 · August 2003

there's another reason to get a 3.

Dinu

carguy58 · August 2003

Thats not a problem. The Flat Rock plant has finishing touches on the 6 which isn't a bad thing at all. If you want to go with the 3 thats your choice though.

creakid1 · August 2003

CR shows Mexican-built Tracer more reliable than the U.S.-built Escort twin.

The Westmorland Pennsylvania-built Rabbit was so bad one article also mentioned a hair stuck on the paint job. No wonder VW switched to Mexico & built whole lot more models.

blueguydotcom · August 2003

Mazda is not going to be stupid and give the 3 more horsepower than the 6.

That's beyond ludicrous. The Jetta and Golf 1.8T made 180 HP in 2002 and 2003. The Passat 1.8T made 170 in 02 and 03. Huh, that sorta shoots down the whole econo car won't have more HP than the uplevel sedan theory.

The Mazda3 will be an amazing car no doubt but pretty soon you guys will have talked your way into the 3 having a 250 hp rotary with the 6 being downgraded to the 1.6 liter from a '99 Protege DX.

If Mazda can slip one of it's odd little renesis engines into a 3 and charge 25k for it - thus making it profitable still, why not? The engine IS compact afterall and Mazda has already seen that a market exists among the young (the most desirable buying demo for companies looking to build a brand) for speedy limited versions of its econo car, so that seems logical if it's profitable.

Come on people, Mazda is not run by complete idiots.

That's debatable. The repeated HP debacles certainly don't lend much credence to a view that Mazda is run by smart people. The massive incentives, the years of the languishing 626 and Mazda's invisibility on many buyer's wishlists also helps reinforce the brass at Mazda might not be idiots, but they're certainly not very market savvy.

qbrozen · August 2003

By the time it comes, I think the mazdaspeed version is going to have to come to the table with 200 hp just to see like its trying to compete. I mean, 170 is what the mazdaspeed protoge had, so they have to trump that at the very least.

you're right, groovy, about how we've become fixated on HP. And it certainly doesn't always tell the whole story. Unfortunately, its sort of become the common language by which we can communicate our desires. Yeah, our desires have grown, but its because we always should be moving forward technologically. There is no reason why in this day of 220-hp factory economy rockets that we shouldn't demand similar or more from other manufacturers.

carguy58 · August 2003

The 626 was because of the Ford Tranny that killed that car. Mazda did everything right with the 93 626. When Ford slipped their own tranny in the 626 a decade ago and it made people run from Mazda because the tranny was junk. The 98 626 didn't look too much different from a 97 model. The 98 did have a better interior than a 97 626 but thats about it. About incentives who isn't using incentives to sell cars nowadays? I don't see anything bad about incentives. Its not like Mazda hasn't had their opportunities to capture market share either. The 93 MX-6 was a bomb because of the Ford Tranny too. Mazda did make the 99 Protege a sleeper hit so you have to give Mazda that.

blueguydotcom · August 2003

About incentives who isn't using incentives to sell cars nowadays?

Please, Mazda lives on incentives like american car companies. You see sticker on a Mazda and chuckle because the factory incentives and real price always lower the car to a few K below invoice.

I don't see anything bad about incentives.

You should. It lowers the value of the car.

dinu01 · August 2003

" The new Mazda3 assembles all the best qualities of its predecessors, refined with the insights gained by studying closely those attributes that make the new generation Mazda product line up so successful. It represents a fresh and confident alternative in a segment that has left the customers of other brands wanting more. Mazda3 is Mazdas answer to Europeans looking for a car that redefines the style, build quality and performance of a segment that has traditionally been focused on functionality and sales volumes.

The new Mazda3 will initially be launched in a dynamic hatchback version, with a saloon to follow a few months later. The outstanding attributes of both versions combine to deliver a unique combination of sporty exterior design, confidence-inspiring dynamic performance, a large and flexible interior and one of the segments best safety packages."

"Superb dynamic characteristics, steering and braking ensure safe and predictable driving under normal conditions. Supplemental to this is a full line up of active safety systems. These include four-wheel ABS with electronic brake-force distribution (EBD) and built in mechanical brake assistance, along with optional dynamic stability control (DSC) with traction control (TCS) for superior vehicle stability and braking performance on slippery roads and in emergency situations.

Robust front and rear discs yield superior braking effectiveness, consistency, rigidity and response. A 10-inch (255 mm) single vacuum booster enhances brake effectiveness and response by ensuring linear increase in deceleration as pedal travel increases. The result is one of the segments shortest braking distances from 100 km/h of only 37 metres."

http://www.carpages.co.uk/mazda/mazda_the_new_mazda3_part_5_26_08- _03.asp

johnclineii · August 2003

..and whether any of that is available in the US and/or Canada without the addition of thousands of dollars worth of high profit (and perhaps undesirable, for some) options, remains to be seen.

bluong1 · August 2003

This is a true official news from European Mazda. I have a more comprehensible 28-pages document about the car, mostly concerning the Hatch version.

johnclineii · August 2003

I do not in any way doubt the European version will be exactly as depicted. It is what MAZDA USA will do that worries me...

dinu01 · August 2003

That's what worries me too - at least in Canada the options are more reasonable, yet I don't know why I need BOSE to get a sunroof...

Dinu

alternator · August 2003

photos I have seen indicate an audio system face plate that will make substitutions of after-market units nearly impossible! And that's really disappointing IMO.

johnclineii · August 2003

ESPECIALLY if they don't offer SIRIUS, which so far they haven't, except on the Mazdaspeed models, as far as I know.

pzev · August 2003

Do the lower models of the Mazda3 have the same seats as the ones in the pictures? Do all the Mazda3 trims have the same seats?

Does anybody know which seat colors go with which exterior color? There are 3 colors, blue, red, and looks like purple, do we get all these? Also any beige interior pictures yet?

There's no passenger side airbag cover. Where does the airbag deploy from?

jchan2 · August 2003

Incentives do two things:
1. In some states, it makes you pay more tax. They tax you on the before rebate price.
2. Hurt resale value. I had a friend who had a $26,000 Taurus SES that sold for $14,500 6 months later. (He got a company car when he moved to Arizona, and it's a black car, and according to him, it's very hard to sell dark cars in the south) He paid $19,000 including all incentives. (He's a good bargainer)

wongpres · August 2003

"Do the lower models of the Mazda3 have the same seats as the ones in the pictures?"

Similar, but not the same.

"Does anybody know which seat colors go with which exterior color? There are 3 colors, blue, red, and looks like purple, do we get all these?"

There's only 2 two-tone cloth colours, red/black and blue/black (there is no purple, it just looks that way in particular pictures). And yes, N. American-spec gets these colours.

"There's no passenger side airbag cover. Where does the airbag deploy from?"

The designers purposely removed the parting line from the passenger airbag for elegance (and IMO that small detail does look amazing & elegant). The parting line actually goes from the right side of the panel with the nav all the way to the right-passenger door.

creakid1 · August 2003

http://www.carpages.co.uk/mazda/mazda_the_new_mazda3_part_4_26_08- - - - - _03.asp
"A MacPherson strut-type front suspension and a multi-link rear suspension BASED ON THE MAZDA6 are designed and tuned to ensure an excellent balance between handling stability and ride comfort."

Even Mazda is ashamed of its 3's Focus origin. When was the last time I heard the Focus control-blade rear suspension, which is the cost-saving version of the old-Mondeo wagon system, is also used in the 6? So Mazda6's multi-link is a Ford design, too? At least the 6 shouldn't have the blade trailng link, which doesn't have lateral stiffness & totally depending on the lateral links to hold it from lateral flexing.

Oh, ok, the 3's is "remotely based" on the 6's because it's got the same total number of links, but basically the same one used in the Focus II.

bluong1 · September 2003

The picture of the rear suspension of the Mazda3 shows some similarities to the that of Mazda6, but not exactly identical. Sorry, I still have no idea how the system works. From Mazda:

The layout of each link is optimised to control the camber and achieve optimum roll centre height. ...

Road holding capability is further enhanced by the rear bushings, which are designed
and positioned to optimise toe changes in response of lateral forces.

Separate positioning of springs and dampers reduces damper frictions, but also frees space for a larger luggage compartment, while maintaining a long coil spring stroke. Twintube gas-filled dampers with large-diameter (35 mm) pistons substantially improve handling and ride comfort.

Bruno

carguy58 · September 2003

Of course it lowers the value of a car. It depends how long you are going to keep the car too that factors in the resale value. Mazda's resale value has never been good. Honda, Toyota, Vw, and BMw have high resale values. Toyota's for the most part are very staid when it comes to styling. Honda-They make good cars but their exterior styling in the 00's is nothing compared to what they did in the 90's. VW=ok they have better resale value than Mazda's but their reliability is a disaster. So I should buy VW just because they have better resale value than Mazda? Ok. BMW-parts are a hassle to get. Resale value is not 100% percenet of car buying.

The people who buy American Cars don't even think about resale value.

jchan2 · September 2003

they don't think about resale value because they already know that the incentives they're using are going to hurt the value of the car. So they already know what's going on with their Ford Taurus or Mercury Sable. (resale value wise) Resale value isn't everything. If you're going to drive the car into the ground then you might as well use all the incentives on the Oldsmobile Alero and buy one of those instead of opting for a VW Jetta.

dinu01 · September 2003

http://media.mazda.ch/dossiers/Mazda3/Photo3-D.htm

Dinu

bluong1 · September 2003

There are only few pictures of the Sedan, I wonder if they are ready to unveil the sedan in Frankfurt next week.

Mazda3

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