From your point of veiw, being a CL owner, it is easy to understand why a Mazda 6 would fit you better than an Accord. Sportier handling, smaller profile, less weight, shorter front overhang, and up until this year a V6 sedan with a manual. But don't count out the TSX to satisfy your needs. It is for the few of us (like you) who remember the old days, and hang on to them for our decisions. I myself have never had any regrets with the Accords I have had. All of them have been plenty sporty, and I'd put the character up against the M6 any day. Less now with the current generation, but that is what the TSX is for!
I'll be interested as to how this turns out. The production RL has been criticized for not being "sporty." I think that's mainly because that's how Honda (Acura) wanted it, and not because it can't be done.
Spoon apparently has close ties to Honda, so maybe they're acting as Honda's outside skunkworks team? Could this hint at a possible sport model of the RL down the road? I wouldn't be surprised...
Yeah, it's too bad they could only afford to field one RL. If would have been interesting to see how well it would have done had they not hit the debris.
Honda prepped two Civics for Thunderhill this year. Along with a few Honda associates, they let Kim Wolfkill and Tony Swan drive them for the event. One took 1st. The other 2nd. (Both within their class, of course.)
Last year, the Acura TL took first place within it's class and 3rd overall.
This is going to sound like typical Honda bias, but the racing results really do back up Honda's approach. When tuned properly, these cars really can play with the big boys... and win. It's just that tuning the car for american driving will really bog the car down. But when you strip down a Mazda, a Bimmer, and a Honda... the Honda is more than competitive.
It's a smallish sedan with a four cylinder engine and SH-AWD. The concept is billed as the next Accord (euro Accord). With the confirmation of the turbo powerplant in the RDX most expect that to be the engine in the next gen TSX.
Since you're both AWD fans... Go to the gallery at that link and check the backs of the front seats.
It doesn't need to be RWD. SH-AWD's capabilities need to be harnessed, and a sport tuned chassis might be able to help in that direction, something that RL in its current form doesn't do.
...for enthusiasts is that it's based on FWD architecture, which is front end heavy. I'd like to see the Acura Division convert to RWD, for better weight distribution, to differentiate itself from Honda, much like Infiniti and Lexus (except for the 300ES) have done. Then offer AWD based on the RWD platform. I think that if any company could build a better "Driving Machine", it would be Honda.
The SH-AWD has a rear-biased power delivery, something like 70% (rear) and 30% (front) default.
I do NOT want to see a RWD Honda or Acura sedan—EVER! As others have said, why build what others are building? And besides, when has Honda ever followed others? They're always been leaders, not followers. All they need to do is build an RL-S, with a sport-tuned suspenion and powertrain.
Hey, if Honda or Acura wants to build a rear driver along the lines of a 3 series, I will be the first in line at the dealer. Just think, no sifting through option sheets, and no fairy tales of 3 series that start at 28 grand with no options (1 out of what every 10k built?)
varmint's link describes it in this application. 70/30 up to 30/70, which is more range than Audi's Quattro (33/67 to 67/33) FWIW. Plus the intelligent rear power split.
What "architecture" things are don't matter when they can deliver. And AWD based on RWD versus FWD argument makes no sense. AWD is AWD (as in all wheels powered, intelligently, or manually or fixed split).
SH-AWD is not your typical AWD. Well, Honda might offer a RWD platform for Acura, who knows, and it will be like everybody else.
As it stands now, SH-AWD isn't to be looked at in a "static" way.
You guys are worried that a RWD RL Sport 6-speed with 350+/- hp is "just like everybody else"?
What are you talking about? Have you actually been in the market for a serious mid size sport sedan in the $50-$70k price range. There is currently ONE choice, period. A BMW 550i 6-speed. There is no high quality Japanese alternative to that car.
The RL decided to play in everybody else's luxury sandbox - the Mercedes E class, Audi A6, BMW 530i, Lexus GS/LS, Infiniti M/Q, etc. etc. And while it's a nice car, it has yet to distinguish itself enough to generate more than peanuts in sales volume.
The RWD vs. AWD debate has been beaten up in the past. But my position is simply that the lighter weight RWD setup would be my - and most enthusiasts' - preference for the best performance and nimble handling. When given the choice, fewer than 15% of BMW and 20% of Mercedes buyers take AWD. And AWD isn't offered on their top of the line performance sedans like the 550i, M5 or E55.
I guess by giving Acura credit for being a "leader" you believe they should continue to follow Audi rather than take on BMW with respect to drive train?
"You keep harping on curb weight. Do you not have the same problem with BMW M5, which despite of being RWD, carries a curb weight of over 4000 lb?"
No, I think M5, with a 502 HP V10 and world class chassis and suspension handles its 4,000 lbs pretty well. So if that's the direction you want Acura to go, I'll happily agree that 4,000 lbs is just fine.
"What are you talking about? Have you actually been in the market for a serious mid size sport sedan in the $50-$70k price range."
Sorry. When we started the conversation with the RL, I didn't think we'd bump the price $20K. I don't think Acura can play in the 50-70K market like BMW. That's why the RL is a 50K (or less) kind of car.
If Honda added a car above the RL to compete in a higher price bracket, I think it would require a good deal more than just a more powerful engine and tuned suspension. At that point I think a new platform would be my recommendation.
Yeah, I have to side with Habitat on that one. The M5 has a whole lotta suspension lovin' to compensate for that weight. Wight is okay, so long as it's managed well.
I don't think the RL manages the weight well as a sporty sedan. It does a nice job as a vehicle which straddles the sport and floatmobile extremes, though.
Even if we're talking RL Type S, we're not talking about M5 competition. 330 hp (turbo?) with sport tuned suspension and a 6MT? That's maybe 56K worth of RL.
But I doubt that's really the car Habitat is after. He wants a RWD car with the same power, tranny, and suspension. The whole new RWD platform would push the price well into the $60K range.
And that begs the question... now that Acura has a sport-oriented large car, do they kill the RL and lose all the non-sport customers? Or do they keep both?
I think the "Type S" option based on the same car makes a whole lot more sense than going with a completely different platform.
Do I have that much more confidence in Acura than you all who say the RL cannot be redesigned and repositioned to compete as the only true luxury sport sedan from Japan? Do you all think Lexus is that far superior to Acura given that they are now pushing the LS up to compete directly with the $70k+ Mercedes S class with 380 horsepower and even more luxury do-dads?
Ye of little faith.
Honda's S2000 won out over Mercedes, BMW and Porsche for my roadster dollars in 2002. Acura's TL 6-speed won out over BMW's smaller 330i and much pricier 530i for my sedan dollars in 2004. And this from someone who was willing to go for a 911 Cab S this past year, so it's not like I'm just a cheapskate, buying the Honda or Acura because they were less expensive than their competition.
If the RL were selling like hotcakes, I'd reluctantly agree "if it's not broken, don't fix it". But whether, like me, you believe the RL is being cannibalized by the sportier TL, or whether you have your own theory, it cannot be denied that the current RL is just not "winning" many consumers.
Yeah, it can be handled. Weight is just one hurdle. But the RL faces hurdles in the form of total weight, weight distribution, and suspension (probably tires, too).
They could fix the suspension. That would get them 90% of the way there. But it won't get them 100%. The weight problem isn't fixed.
I just don't think going back to the drawing board is worth that extra 10%.
"Do I have that much more confidence in Acura than you all who say the RL cannot be redesigned and repositioned to compete as the only true luxury sport sedan from Japan?"
Just to clarify my previous point. If you added a 500hp V10 to the RL along with all of the suspension and chassis upgrades on the BMW M5, I am sure you would take it's curb weight of the RL up from it's current 4,000 lbs to 4,400.
The fact that the (underpowered) RL weighs 200 lbs more than a BMW 550i V8 and 500+ lbs more than the TL 6-speed suggests that the AWD weight penalty is at least a few hundred pounds. And, at least to me, it is a noticable handicap.
You're talking to an AWD fan of the highest order here. There are 3 Subarus and a CRV in my family, and your's truly has a new 1 month old '06 WRX Limited 5-speed wagon (not bad for someone about to turn 61).
bob, acura will be the next mercury(maybe they already are) if they can't admit they need rwd to make it in the high end luxury market. not only that, they need a v8 too.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
I appreciate your tenacious loyalty to AWD. But it doesn't have to be to the exclusion of RWD. BMW and Mercedes offer the choice. The BMW 5-series spans a broad range. From the entry level (525i), to mid level (530i), to AWD (530ix), to upper level (550i), to insane (M5).
I don't quite accept your Audi comparison as I have never felt they could match any comparable BMW model in handling, steering and overal driving feel. Especially the S4 which is a far, far cry from the nimble handling M3. I suspect the S6 will similarly distanced from the M5.
By the way, do you own or are you considering an RL? At least you have some alternatives to consider in the A6, E350 4-matic and 530ix. But what's a poor guy like me to do other than the 550i 6-speed?
Audis never matched BMWs are Benzes, because they're FWD with an AWD option. But reviews are saying that the new RS4 is actually a match for the M3.
Honda's always tried to build all-rounders. They don't like the interior space sacrifice that you get with RWD. And it's a real sacrifice; a problem the 5-series has always had. Though somehow, the RL has the same problem... so something's gotta change on that car.
No, I'm not considing an RL, or anything in that price range, Too rich for my blood, and I can get my "jollies" form less expensive brands (Subaru).
My point about Acura going 100% AWD (like Subaru), and not offering an RWD version has to do with marketing and positioning the brand. Honda and Acura have spent their entire life marching to a different drummer—that's part of their image. I don't want to see that change. I also obviously believe AWD is a better solution for most of one's driving; forget snow (everyone knows it's better there), I'm talking about rain, etc.
And as I said, AWD can be made into very sporty cars, as per the models I mentioned. Whether AWD is for you or not, well that's another question...
But how many of those models even offer a manual transmission, you did say you wanted a 6 speed, right? Maybe the rare Audi or Bimmer, that's about it.
And even for the ones that do, what % do those manuals represent?
The money is in making automatics, and luxurious but cushy ones at that.
I guess the RL-S could be a halo car, but the next NSX will do that already. And to have a unique engine means they'll have to EPA certify the RL-S all over again, twice if you want manual + automatic.
I'll have to agree with varmint here (*gasp* ) and wonder if they could do this profitably. Enthusiasts would simply choose the BMW anyway, and Acura would not get enough sales to offset the cost of building it.
Well the problem as I see it (in terms of making money on a RL-S vs. the BMW M5) is that BMW is already known as a performance car, whereas Acura has not (yet) developed that image for that model. It can be done—but not overnight. It would take a few years, so yes, I would say that Acura, for a few years may not find that an RL-S to be profitable.
Audis never matched BMWs are Benzes, because they're FWD with an AWD option. But reviews are saying that the new RS4 is actually a match for the M3
That is simply not true. In terms of "slippery road" handling Audis has long outperformed competition. To be fair, they did not do as well with straight-line dry pavement acceleration that is so real world situation .
Until A3 and TT, which are different (transverse engine with Haldex clutch system), quattros were based on longitudinal, "AWD-dedicated" alignment (Torsen), as are Subarus and most rally "supercars" that are not available to the public. The fact that A4, A6 and A8 also have come with FWD is completely irrelevant here, because these were made on entirely different configuration: transverse-mounted engine. The cars looked the same, but "inside" of they were significantly different. It is somewhat strange, but Audi was able to mount its engines in both directions and mate the same transmissions, IIRC.
This is unlike most other AWD systems (MB, BMW, Acura, Volvo, Nissan/Infinity etc.), where AWD was developed using existing FWD or RWD configuration. Transfer to other wheels was achieved through multiple 90-degree turns rather than integrated torsen-like clutch.
In short, AWD on cars other than Subaru and Audi, had been afterthought rather than origination point. It is now slowly changing with X-drive from BMW and SH-AWD from Acura, which are also "primary" AWD systems, but achieving their effects by somewhat different means.
"I'll have to agree with varmint here (*gasp* ) and wonder if they could do this profitably. Enthusiasts would simply choose the BMW anyway, and Acura would not get enough sales to offset the cost of building it."
You are exactly right about the manual transmission, the only cars on the list I would buy today are the 530i or 550i 6-speeds. But that was part of my point. There are a lot of Japanese and German luxury sedans in the $50k - $70k space, but only one (5-series) that appeals to the enthusiast. And that's why I think Acura has a market opportunity.
I also don't think Acura needs to compete with the M5 at all, and would never suggest that. But a RL that could compete between the 530i and 550i level would separate them form the pack that they now are trying to sell against. I would give it serious consideration, just as I did the TL 6-speed vs. the 330i.
Again, not to repeat myself, but the current RL is a market failure compared to the TL. Hell, at least with the S2000, it was limited production BY CHOICE and two years after introduction, they were still selling at a premium to MSRP. My dealer said that he sold more TL 6-speeds last year than RL's, wich is amazing since only about 10% of TL's produced are 6-speeds. He also sold more E320/E350 AWD's than RL's.
I've offered one - selfish I admit - suggestion as to how the RL could be repositioned to capture more sales, not less, by offering an alternative to the 530/550i.
But we’re not concerned about 500 HP or a $85K price tag at this point on RL. I’m talking about RL with Sport Package for those who think the base model is too docile, and turbo charged 3.5/V6 for those who think it needs more power, 350 HP with about 375 lb.-ft might do it.
We make up a small % of the market. 93% of cars are sold with slush boxes. That 7% keeps shrinking. I bet a lot of people have never even driven a manual before.
RD-X came out with paddle shifters, no manual at all. I think that's how Acura will pursue the segment, maybe we can call them semi-enthusiasts.
I'm a big fan of certain Honda/Acura models. Three of my last 4 cars. The S2000 was a masterpiece. But don't see their brand as innovative across the board as you do. The Accord is a nice appliance. The Legend GS 6-speed of 1994 was a lot more "leading edge" than the boring as hell RL of 2004. And in the past, they were guilty of rebadging an Isuzu Trooper as an SLX at $10k more. Not exactly innovative there.
That said, I think taking on the 530i and 550i when Lexus and Infiniti appear incapable or unwilling IS "marching to a different drummer". At one point, the new RL was marketed as though BMW was indeed Acura's target. But while the car leads the pack in gadgets, it fell short on performance. If you have driven the RL AWD, the last thing you will call it is "sporty".
"And in the past, they were guilty of rebadging an Isuzu Trooper as an SLX at $10k more. Not exactly innovative there. "
Uh didn't Porsche just develop their new SUV(Caynenne) alongside the VW Toureg? The Cayenne and Toureg share the same engine. Even Porsche needs help developing SUV's from other companies.
There are a lot of Japanese and German luxury sedans in the $50k - $70k space, but only one (5-series) that appeals to the enthusiast. And that's why I think Acura has a market opportunity.
I don't disagree with that. I just think it would require a whole other platform to achieve the goal properly. And a brand new platform for a single, low volume vehicle is an expensive way to do business. If they are going to do something like that. It should serve as a halo car and case study in technological advancement (like the NSX). A sedan (even the bimmer) doesn't do that.
As for the RL Acura sells in the real world... I think it can be said without reservation that it has not achieved the sporting target it was intended to reach. But I put the blame more on the suspension than the AWD.
And from a business perspective, that AWD system has the potential to transform other cars (RDX, MDX, TSX, etc.) into much more capable machines. Good investment.
As for the RL Acura sells in the real world... I think it can be said without reservation that it has not achieved the sporting target it was intended to reach. But I put the blame more on the suspension than the AWD.
Exactly. It's not a fault of the AWD. It's a fault of the product planners who determined the type of vehicle to be built. They wanted a supreme luxury sedan, and that's what they got. I have absolutely no doubt that if Honda/Acura wanted to build a proper "sporting" AWD sedan—they can do it.
And who's to say that won't happen in the future? I'm sure the Acura folks are more than just a little interested in the racing RL that Spoon is working on.
The TL's appeal is obviously it's price. For the low $31s you get a loaded competent semi-luxurious package that'll flat out rip the asphalt when asked. I'd propose only 20% of the TLs sold are getting pushed at all.
For the RL to survive it needs to go up a step vs. the TL. Altho an RL is around $45K now, its hard to justify the extra $ vs. the TL's $31K. I guess Honda's dead set on no V8s, but this position could be the RL's swan song. Go with the V8, make the car bigger, and they will come buy.
And from a business perspective, that AWD system has the potential to transform other cars (RDX, MDX, TSX, etc.) into much more capable machines. Good investment.
Comments
I'll be interested as to how this turns out. The production RL has been criticized for not being "sporty." I think that's mainly because that's how Honda (Acura) wanted it, and not because it can't be done.
Spoon apparently has close ties to Honda, so maybe they're acting as Honda's outside skunkworks team? Could this hint at a possible sport model of the RL down the road? I wouldn't be surprised...
Bob
Well, it always helps to be reasonable. Setting goals that can be met, rather than those that can't be,
Honda prepped two Civics for Thunderhill this year. Along with a few Honda associates, they let Kim Wolfkill and Tony Swan drive them for the event. One took 1st. The other 2nd. (Both within their class, of course.)
Last year, the Acura TL took first place within it's class and 3rd overall.
This is going to sound like typical Honda bias, but the racing results really do back up Honda's approach. When tuned properly, these cars really can play with the big boys... and win. It's just that tuning the car for american driving will really bog the car down. But when you strip down a Mazda, a Bimmer, and a Honda... the Honda is more than competitive.
I think the haulers (MDX, Ridge, Ody) should keep the N/A V6 engines, but I'd like to see the sportier cars get a turbo. TSX should be next.
-juice
http://world.honda.com/Tokyo2005/sports4/
It's a smallish sedan with a four cylinder engine and SH-AWD. The concept is billed as the next Accord (euro Accord). With the confirmation of the turbo powerplant in the RDX most expect that to be the engine in the next gen TSX.
Since you're both AWD fans... Go to the gallery at that link and check the backs of the front seats.
Bingo! And if it's RWD and correspondingly about 300 lbs lighter, I'll give Acura my deposit check tomorrow.
I'd really prefer Acura to go the BMW / Mercedes route with AWD as the option, but RWD the standard.
Acura has a lot of buyers because so many people prefer more interior room to oversteer...
Oops! Carlismo beat me to the point.
I do NOT want to see a RWD Honda or Acura sedan—EVER! As others have said, why build what others are building? And besides, when has Honda ever followed others? They're always been leaders, not followers. All they need to do is build an RL-S, with a sport-tuned suspenion and powertrain.
Bob
I'm a fan.
-juice
SH-AWD is not your typical AWD. Well, Honda might offer a RWD platform for Acura, who knows, and it will be like everybody else.
As it stands now, SH-AWD isn't to be looked at in a "static" way.
What are you talking about? Have you actually been in the market for a serious mid size sport sedan in the $50-$70k price range. There is currently ONE choice, period. A BMW 550i 6-speed. There is no high quality Japanese alternative to that car.
The RL decided to play in everybody else's luxury sandbox - the Mercedes E class, Audi A6, BMW 530i, Lexus GS/LS, Infiniti M/Q, etc. etc. And while it's a nice car, it has yet to distinguish itself enough to generate more than peanuts in sales volume.
The RWD vs. AWD debate has been beaten up in the past. But my position is simply that the lighter weight RWD setup would be my - and most enthusiasts' - preference for the best performance and nimble handling. When given the choice, fewer than 15% of BMW and 20% of Mercedes buyers take AWD. And AWD isn't offered on their top of the line performance sedans like the 550i, M5 or E55.
I guess by giving Acura credit for being a "leader" you believe they should continue to follow Audi rather than take on BMW with respect to drive train?
No, I think M5, with a 502 HP V10 and world class chassis and suspension handles its 4,000 lbs pretty well. So if that's the direction you want Acura to go, I'll happily agree that 4,000 lbs is just fine.
Sorry. When we started the conversation with the RL, I didn't think we'd bump the price $20K. I don't think Acura can play in the 50-70K market like BMW. That's why the RL is a 50K (or less) kind of car.
If Honda added a car above the RL to compete in a higher price bracket, I think it would require a good deal more than just a more powerful engine and tuned suspension. At that point I think a new platform would be my recommendation.
I don't think the RL manages the weight well as a sporty sedan. It does a nice job as a vehicle which straddles the sport and floatmobile extremes, though.
Anything from them over $50k probably ought to have an "NSX" badge.
-juice
But I doubt that's really the car Habitat is after. He wants a RWD car with the same power, tranny, and suspension. The whole new RWD platform would push the price well into the $60K range.
And that begs the question... now that Acura has a sport-oriented large car, do they kill the RL and lose all the non-sport customers? Or do they keep both?
I think the "Type S" option based on the same car makes a whole lot more sense than going with a completely different platform.
Let's see now, just a few of the cars in that segment that I am aware of include:
Mercedes: E320 CDI, E350, E500
Audi: A6 4.2, A8
Lexus: GS430, LS430
Infiniti: M45, Q56
Jaguar: XJ8, S Type 4.2
BMW: 530i, 550i
Do I have that much more confidence in Acura than you all who say the RL cannot be redesigned and repositioned to compete as the only true luxury sport sedan from Japan? Do you all think Lexus is that far superior to Acura given that they are now pushing the LS up to compete directly with the $70k+ Mercedes S class with 380 horsepower and even more luxury do-dads?
Ye of little faith.
Honda's S2000 won out over Mercedes, BMW and Porsche for my roadster dollars in 2002. Acura's TL 6-speed won out over BMW's smaller 330i and much pricier 530i for my sedan dollars in 2004. And this from someone who was willing to go for a 911 Cab S this past year, so it's not like I'm just a cheapskate, buying the Honda or Acura because they were less expensive than their competition.
If the RL were selling like hotcakes, I'd reluctantly agree "if it's not broken, don't fix it". But whether, like me, you believe the RL is being cannibalized by the sportier TL, or whether you have your own theory, it cannot be denied that the current RL is just not "winning" many consumers.
They could fix the suspension. That would get them 90% of the way there. But it won't get them 100%. The weight problem isn't fixed.
I just don't think going back to the drawing board is worth that extra 10%.
I have no doubt they could engineer it.
I doubt they could do it profitably.
The fact that the (underpowered) RL weighs 200 lbs more than a BMW 550i V8 and 500+ lbs more than the TL 6-speed suggests that the AWD weight penalty is at least a few hundred pounds. And, at least to me, it is a noticable handicap.
The Legacy GT, WRX (and STI) prove that you can make a very "sporty" AWD. And let's not forget about some very sporty AWD Audis too, like the S4, and the just announced S6. http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/AutoshowArticles/articleId=108813
In any event, you can argue till the cows come home about a RWD RL. I just hope and pray I never see one.
Bob
I appreciate your tenacious loyalty to AWD. But it doesn't have to be to the exclusion of RWD. BMW and Mercedes offer the choice. The BMW 5-series spans a broad range. From the entry level (525i), to mid level (530i), to AWD (530ix), to upper level (550i), to insane (M5).
I don't quite accept your Audi comparison as I have never felt they could match any comparable BMW model in handling, steering and overal driving feel. Especially the S4 which is a far, far cry from the nimble handling M3. I suspect the S6 will similarly distanced from the M5.
By the way, do you own or are you considering an RL? At least you have some alternatives to consider in the A6, E350 4-matic and 530ix. But what's a poor guy like me to do other than the 550i 6-speed?
Honda's always tried to build all-rounders. They don't like the interior space sacrifice that you get with RWD. And it's a real sacrifice; a problem the 5-series has always had. Though somehow, the RL has the same problem... so something's gotta change on that car.
My point about Acura going 100% AWD (like Subaru), and not offering an RWD version has to do with marketing and positioning the brand. Honda and Acura have spent their entire life marching to a different drummer—that's part of their image. I don't want to see that change. I also obviously believe AWD is a better solution for most of one's driving; forget snow (everyone knows it's better there), I'm talking about rain, etc.
And as I said, AWD can be made into very sporty cars, as per the models I mentioned. Whether AWD is for you or not, well that's another question...
Bob
Mercedes: E320 CDI, E350, E500
Audi: A6 4.2, A8
Lexus: GS430, LS430
Infiniti: M45, Q56
Jaguar: XJ8, S Type 4.2
BMW: 530i, 550i
But how many of those models even offer a manual transmission, you did say you wanted a 6 speed, right? Maybe the rare Audi or Bimmer, that's about it.
And even for the ones that do, what % do those manuals represent?
The money is in making automatics, and luxurious but cushy ones at that.
I guess the RL-S could be a halo car, but the next NSX will do that already. And to have a unique engine means they'll have to EPA certify the RL-S all over again, twice if you want manual + automatic.
I'll have to agree with varmint here (*gasp*
-juice
Bob
That is simply not true. In terms of "slippery road" handling Audis has long outperformed competition. To be fair, they did not do as well with straight-line dry pavement acceleration that is so real world situation
Until A3 and TT, which are different (transverse engine with Haldex clutch system), quattros were based on longitudinal, "AWD-dedicated" alignment (Torsen), as are Subarus and most rally "supercars" that are not available to the public. The fact that A4, A6 and A8 also have come with FWD is completely irrelevant here, because these were made on entirely different configuration: transverse-mounted engine. The cars looked the same, but "inside" of they were significantly different. It is somewhat strange, but Audi was able to mount its engines in both directions and mate the same transmissions, IIRC.
This is unlike most other AWD systems (MB, BMW, Acura, Volvo, Nissan/Infinity etc.), where AWD was developed using existing FWD or RWD configuration. Transfer to other wheels was achieved through multiple 90-degree turns rather than integrated torsen-like clutch.
In short, AWD on cars other than Subaru and Audi, had been afterthought rather than origination point. It is now slowly changing with X-drive from BMW and SH-AWD from Acura, which are also "primary" AWD systems, but achieving their effects by somewhat different means.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
You are exactly right about the manual transmission, the only cars on the list I would buy today are the 530i or 550i 6-speeds. But that was part of my point. There are a lot of Japanese and German luxury sedans in the $50k - $70k space, but only one (5-series) that appeals to the enthusiast. And that's why I think Acura has a market opportunity.
I also don't think Acura needs to compete with the M5 at all, and would never suggest that. But a RL that could compete between the 530i and 550i level would separate them form the pack that they now are trying to sell against. I would give it serious consideration, just as I did the TL 6-speed vs. the 330i.
Again, not to repeat myself, but the current RL is a market failure compared to the TL. Hell, at least with the S2000, it was limited production BY CHOICE and two years after introduction, they were still selling at a premium to MSRP. My dealer said that he sold more TL 6-speeds last year than RL's, wich is amazing since only about 10% of TL's produced are 6-speeds. He also sold more E320/E350 AWD's than RL's.
I've offered one - selfish I admit - suggestion as to how the RL could be repositioned to capture more sales, not less, by offering an alternative to the 530/550i.
RD-X came out with paddle shifters, no manual at all. I think that's how Acura will pursue the segment, maybe we can call them semi-enthusiasts.
-juice
I'm a big fan of certain Honda/Acura models. Three of my last 4 cars. The S2000 was a masterpiece. But don't see their brand as innovative across the board as you do. The Accord is a nice appliance. The Legend GS 6-speed of 1994 was a lot more "leading edge" than the boring as hell RL of 2004. And in the past, they were guilty of rebadging an Isuzu Trooper as an SLX at $10k more. Not exactly innovative there.
That said, I think taking on the 530i and 550i when Lexus and Infiniti appear incapable or unwilling IS "marching to a different drummer". At one point, the new RL was marketed as though BMW was indeed Acura's target. But while the car leads the pack in gadgets, it fell short on performance. If you have driven the RL AWD, the last thing you will call it is "sporty".
Uh didn't Porsche just develop their new SUV(Caynenne) alongside the VW Toureg? The Cayenne and Toureg share the same engine. Even Porsche needs help developing SUV's from other companies.
I don't disagree with that. I just think it would require a whole other platform to achieve the goal properly. And a brand new platform for a single, low volume vehicle is an expensive way to do business. If they are going to do something like that. It should serve as a halo car and case study in technological advancement (like the NSX). A sedan (even the bimmer) doesn't do that.
As for the RL Acura sells in the real world... I think it can be said without reservation that it has not achieved the sporting target it was intended to reach. But I put the blame more on the suspension than the AWD.
And from a business perspective, that AWD system has the potential to transform other cars (RDX, MDX, TSX, etc.) into much more capable machines. Good investment.
Exactly. It's not a fault of the AWD. It's a fault of the product planners who determined the type of vehicle to be built. They wanted a supreme luxury sedan, and that's what they got. I have absolutely no doubt that if Honda/Acura wanted to build a proper "sporting" AWD sedan—they can do it.
And who's to say that won't happen in the future? I'm sure the Acura folks are more than just a little interested in the racing RL that Spoon is working on.
Bob
For the RL to survive it needs to go up a step vs. the TL. Altho an RL is around $45K now, its hard to justify the extra $ vs. the TL's $31K. I guess Honda's dead set on no V8s, but this position could be the RL's swan song. Go with the V8, make the car bigger, and they will come buy.
Well put.