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Toyota Prius vs VW Golf TDI



  • john1701ajohn1701a Posts: 1,897
    >> With all the other vehicles in the Toyota bays it could take months to get your brake update.

    That's also incorrect.

    Dealers have mechanics devoted to the hybrids. So, the workload for the traditional vehicles will not affect those bringing in their Prius.

    Mine was updated 2.5 weeks ago. It only took a few minutes.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,868
    Question for John- Have you kept a Prius past the 100,000 mile mark? Past the 200,000 mile mark?

    Very interested in your personal experience with Prius after the honeymoon is over and the miles accrue past 100,000.

    Diesel engines typically perform better at 100,000 miles than they did at 100 miles. Do hybrids increase their performance as they break in?
  • winter2winter2 Posts: 1,801
    It's always interesting to see how long someone will milk outdated information.

    The information may be a bit outdated, but it is part of a trend related to software issues in the Prius and other Toyota models.
  • winter2winter2 Posts: 1,801
    More efficient? Not really. Plants that use fossil fuels to generate electricity are very inefficient.

    What about recharge times? At 110 volts, 12+ hours. At 220/240 volts maybe 4- 6 hours. How many people have out access to 220/240 volt outlets, even 110 volt outlets.
  • winter2winter2 Posts: 1,801
    Did you look at the URL's in my posting? As to reduced consumption, I will agree to a point, but gasoline is and always will be a one way fuel. Remeber, your Prius is limited to E10. My and almost all diesels is not limited to using B5. I have used up to B40 without a hiccough. There diesel owners who are using B100 in newer diesels without an issue and no loss in FE.

    As to biodiesel and NOx, there are just as many studies that show it will increase NOx versus no change in NOx.

    With the introduction of exhaust treatment in Diesels, NOx is now a non-argument.
  • Our NHW11, 2003 Prius has 125,360 miles at the last fill-up, Feb. 9. It continues
    to deliver 51.9 MPG, lifetime average. It is my primary commuting car although
    I will use my wife's car on severe weather days.

    Our ZVW30, 2010 Prius has 9,105 mile at the last fill-up, Feb. 13 and
    delivers 51.2 MPG. We use it for out of town trips and errands.

    Sunday I'll visit a boy with 250,000 miles on his 2001 Prius. We'll be looking
    at some maintenance issues but otherwise, he's been one happy camper.
    The highest mileage USA Prius I know of had 350,000 miles before being
    lost in traffic accident. The owner bought another Prius.

    We hadn't even noticed the 2010 braking pause because it required
    rain-slick streets, a speed-bump or severe pothole, gentle braking and a
    speed under 20 mph. Break any of these pre-requisites and it doesn't
    happen. Measured with an accurate accelerometer, it was a 700-800

    I got my brake update, A0B, February 13 in Decatur Alabama and since
    then I've not been able to replicate the brake pause. It is a simple software
    update to the skid control computer. So here is a pothole that could
    trigger the brake pause:
    The deep part is 5-6 inches deep and about 7 feet long. They tend to
    show up in the winter when water freezes in street cracks.

    Before the software update:
    You can see the weakened brake force.

    After the 30 minute, software update:
    The brake pause is gone.

    Bob Wilson
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,110
    If it was that simple to detect, why didn't Toyota catch it before putting a dangerous vehicle on the road. It should have been quite obvious with any slick road testing. The Toyota testing on all their vehicles leaves a LOT to be desired. From Prius brakes to UA on most of their vehicles and now screwed up steering on the newly designed Corolla. And you want people to think that somehow a Prius is in the same league as a VW.

    LMAO looking at those goofy charts. Too bad your test equipment cannot find Toyota's problems with UA acceleration. Another anomaly that has plagued the Prius since the 2004 model arrived. You could save Toyota a lot of embarrassment. Not to mention market share.
  • You posted:

    "The new VW/Audi TDIs are cleaner than the Camry V6"

    So I looked up the California Air Resources Board executive orders
    reporting emissions:

    A-007-0285 - "Volkswagen Jetta, Jetta Sportwagen, Golf, Audi A3"
    - 0.055 NMOG or NMHC STD [g/mi] @UL

    A-014-0651 - "Toyota Camry Hybrid"
    - 0.010 NMOG or NMHC STD [g/mi] @UL

    A-014-0649 - "Toyota Camry" 2.5L
    - 0.055 NMOG or NMHC STD [g/mi] @UL

    A-014-0652 - "Toyota Camry" 3.5L
    - 0.055 NMOG or NMHC STD [g/mi] @UL

    Bob Wilson
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,110
    You forgot CO2 is a pollutant according to CA and the current regime in Washington. The V6 Camry puts out 1.8 more tons of CO2 per year than the Jetta TDI. Not to mention NO and HC. And all the nasty cancer causing fumes from Gas when it is pumped into the cars.
  • bwilson4webbwilson4web Posts: 80
    edited February 2010
    You wrote:

    "If it was that simple to detect, ..."

    It was not simple to detect. It required a unique combination such that half
    of the 2010 Prius owners had not even detected it. Even now, I could not
    replicate it unless:

    (1) speed bump or severe pothole, paving crews corrected two reports
    (2) rain slick street, does not happen in dry weather
    (3) speed under 20 mph approaching bump, faster and it doesn't happen
    (4) modest braking, held constant ... hitting the brake harder stops the
    car instantly

    Of the total, only 20% felt it was severe upon first experiencing it but
    once they had experienced it, knew to apply the brakes harder and
    stop instantly. It would only be dangerous to unskilled drivers, diesel?,
    who don't know to push the brakes harder. But after the software upgrade,
    many report their brakes are better than their ordinary cars.

    You wrote:

    "Too bad your test equipment cannot find Toyota's problems with
    UA acceleration"

    Actually we have something better, Dr. Gilbert's report. It turns out he
    had to introduce two faults:

    (1) resistive jumper between sensor output - it had to be a resistive jumper, not a straight short
    (2) pull up resistor to Vcc - this swings the output up to generate the maximum acceleration

    In contrast, diesels with worn rings can begin burning engine oil, runaway
    and disassemble themselves. That is an excellent reason for running a
    diesel many, many miles.

    Working on a diesel has special hazards too:
    What happens is the injection site actually puts diesel deep inside the
    wound. This requires extensive and terribly expensive medical
    treatment. Probably painful too.

    Bob Wilson
  • gogogodzillagogogodzilla VirginiaPosts: 707
    What about recharge times? At 110 volts, 12+ hours. At 220/240 volts maybe 4- 6 hours. How many people have out access to 220/240 volt outlets, even 110 volt outlets.

    Or have access to any outlet at all next to their car... (apartment parking lots)
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,110
    Maybe they need to look deeper in the 2010 Prius.

    A further five accidents involving Toyota's latest Prius model have been reported in Japan.

    The incidents involved crashes in which the car's brakes did not work sufficiently.

    Reports said the country's transport ministry has already received some 80 complaints about problems with the latest model of the flagship Prius hybrid.

    Toyota's British arm has confirmed UK drivers have also complained about a brake-system safety problem.

    In the US, the company faces a government probe into the safety of the Prius after transport officials received more than 100 complaints.

    Company president Akio Toyoda has apologised to customers and admitted the car maker was in crisis over safety recalls.

    Economy cars, Prius score poorly in IIHS crash tests

    Be safe go BIG
  • You wrote:

    "The V6 Camry puts out ..."

    Apparently you forgot this is the Prius vs. Jetta^H^H^H^H^HGolf
    thread. Perhaps you ought to scamper over to the
    "Camry vs Golf" thread.

    So you got called on CARB emissions and now want to change
    the subject to a discussion about Camry. Sorry my friend but you'll
    have to carry that load alone. But hey, maybe "pf_flyer" will
    change the title ... again.

    The Prius kicks TDI butt in emissions and you know it. Welcome
    back to the thread already in progress.

    Bob Wilson
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,110
    Sorry Charlie, The TDI still holds All the MPG records for anything over a short jaunt to the liquor store. And the VW TDI passes CARB emissions with flying colors. Green Car of the year. Green Car of the WORLD. I don't think VW could be any happier. Plus being Numero uno automaker for 2009. And well on the way for 2010. I look for Toyota to slip back to third or fourth with their line up of dangerous vehicles. The Prius being one of them.
  • You wrote another "diesel" truth:

    "Prius score poorly in IIHS crash tests"

    The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety reports something else
    for the Prius.

    I don't mind "diesel talk" but do you ever write anything accurate?

    Bob Wilson
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,110
    You brought up the older model Prius in our little debate. I thought it pertinent information that they are considered far less than safe. Especially the pre 2004 models.

    The fact is the VW TDI holds every mileage record going for any distance other than across town. You want to challenge the record holders get that 2010 Prius out on the highway. 48 states in 19 days and 67.9 MPG is the target to beat. I get mighty tired of some flaky magazine taking a car for 20 miles and giving some stupid mileage number that is absolutely meaningless to the average car buyer.

    You like facts. Here they are. Your chance to show what that Prius can do.

    Helen and John Taylor have done it again. The husband and wife team of hyper-milers fuel stretchers have just broken their own "48 Contiguous U.S. States Fuel Economy Guinness World Record" with an average of 67.9 miles per gallon. That's quite a bit better than the duo's previous record of just over 58 mpg, and it was recorded over three weeks and more than 9,000 miles without such controversial and potentially dangerous techniques as drafting or rolling through stop signs.
  • You wrote:

    "Sorry Charlie"

    Too bad you're living in a diesel fantasy land:

    We even looked at Jetta owner mileage reports:
    These charts date from this summer but the ratio hold true. Here
    are your own, Jetta mileage numbers:

    Here is another example:
    Again, it is your own TDI owners showing the puffery of your
    claims. Sorry Charlie, you're still sunk.

    Again, you wrote another diesel fantasy:

    "Toyota. . . with their line up of dangerous vehicles"

    Perhaps the truth is a VW sales critter is here trying ...
    desperately trying with omissions, unsubstantiated claims,
    and general FUD ... fighting against reality. In contrast, the
    Prius is listed as the second, least expensive vehicle
    insurance cost by the National Highway Traffic Safety
    Administration. Now that safety defects fixes are readily
    available, the Toyotas remain in the top safety ratings.

    In contrast, our diesel advocates like to show these scenes:

    Then we have the noise, the racket made by VW's in the
    "Meet the Volkswaggen" commercial. Your company revelles
    in the racket they make.">

    Bob Wilson
  • john1701ajohn1701a Posts: 1,897
    edited February 2010
    >> Very interested in your personal experience with Prius after the honeymoon is over and the miles accrue
    past 100,000.

    Since I witnessed growth in marketshare the entire time I've own a Prius, while diesel remained flat, there
    was no end to the honeymoon.

    118,185 miles when I traded the 2004 for a 2010.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,110
    There is a picture limitation of 640 wide on Edmunds. If you go wider than that it cuts off your messages and the ability to reply.

    All those over sized charts prove is the EPA does not know how to estimate mileage for new cars. This is the official winner. It must be irritating that no one wants to put 9000 miles on a Prius in 19 days to take back the OFFICIAL MPG record. The truth is I despise the overly complex hybrids as much as you despise the simple high mileage diesels. That is called a Mexican standoff. So I am waiting for some NEW revelation that the Prius has taken the mileage lead. Not old charts posted multiple times. They are no more relevant to the debate than the first time they were posted. Especially anything done by the defunct EPA.

    fuel mileage world record at 67.9 mpg
    We hope our record-breaking journey helps educate the driving public that decisions, such as choosing the right tires, using the right fuel and adopting fuel-saving driving techniques, can help anyone save money and fuel, and reduce carbon emissions.

  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,906
    The writer of that article, Economy cars, Prius score poorly in IIHS crash tests, should be ashamed of himself. It is very misleading. The only IIHS test discussed is the bumper test, which involves low-speed impacts. The test has nothing to do with safety, but instead compares repair costs due to low-speed impacts. The title and especially the photo accompanying the article make it seem as if the subject is high-speed IIHS crash tests, which it isn't. And the 2010 Prius does very well in those tests--as well as the Golf, with "Good" marks on front, side, and rear impacts.

    Also, the report covers the previous-generation Prius, not the redesigned 2010 model. However, you will notice that the previous-generation Golf (aka Rabbit) scored worse in the test than the Prius.

    What has happened to journalistic integrity?? :sick:
  • eliaselias Posts: 2,120
    edited February 2010
    BW, thanks for posting the "goofy charts". I find them informative and interesting .
    However, your posting of disgusting medical photos appears offensive and bizarre.

    When comparing todays mpg with that before RFG/oxygenates, one might like to consider the ~10% across-the-board drop which occurred when RFG/ethanol became mandated in gasoline.
    a gas car that got 52 mpg 20 years ago would probably get 45 mpg on todays gas, unless it could be retuned to optimize for the todays increasingly adulterated gasoline.

    in the fuel-smell department, recent days of dealing with gasoline powered generator and spilled gasoline reminds me that wish i had a diesel generator. gasoline smell really makes me gack, but diesel smells like victory.

    a pal of mine had a 1980s dasher diesel. automatic. it was comical in its pastel blue color and its slowness and the stupendous soot clouds it produced. it was most definitely a "tank".
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,110
    Headlines are designed to get your attention. You then have to read the article to get the rest of the story. I think low speed crash tests are actually as important as the high speed. The more realistic tests are real world, where a 6000 lb PU truck slams into a small car that has just run a red light.

    Two points. The cost to repair is many times lost in the overall concern for the occupants safety. Yet it means higher premiums for the smaller more easily damaged vehicles.
    Second more emphasis should be put on crash tests between small cars and big vehicles. That is where the NHTSA has fallen flat. What is the chance of a Prius running into the back of another Prius? Or a Golf into the rear end of another Golf.

    IIHS is concerned with cost to repair as they are supported by the Insurance companies. They want you to know if you crash your Prius or Golf at low speed it can cost a small fortune to repair. And will raise the rates for smaller vehicles.
  • eliaselias Posts: 2,120
    aside from 100% real city/manhattan driving ,I don't how anyone could get less than 40 mpg in a TDI by using forward gears. Most of us drive the TDIs like we "stole" them and get 45 mpg tank after tank. It is easier with the manual-shift VW TDI cars , that's for sure.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,906
    I think low speed crash tests are actually as important as the high speed.

    OK. Then thanks for posting the article that provides another benefit of buying the Prius over the Golf--lower cost for repairing damage to low-speed crashes (based on prior-generation cars).

    Also, consider that the IIHS side impact test is designed to simulate a collision with a small truck or SUV, so there is some emphasis placed on simulating crashes with larger vehicles.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,110
    While it is impossible to know the truth about the MPG posted on the EPA site. My guess is the hybrid owners would be a bit more likely to fudge those numbers. As that is the only advantage to owning a hybrid like the Prius. I am sure that I have encountered Prius drivers that get in the high 50s for mileage. Or if they don't they managed to waste a lot of fuel in the vehicles that guzzled gas the first chance they had to get around them. The Prius being very unique in its styling has created a widening gap between drivers. People either love them or totally despise them. Kind of like our country right now that is so divided. Right now there is not a high mileage vehicle sold in America I want. If Audi brings their A4 Allroad Quattro 2.0L TDI I will pay MSRP cash for one. Until then I guess I just get to debate the advantages of diesel over gas vehicles.

  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,110
    If I remember that report, the IIHS was less than complimentary to the small car segment.

    And it was noted that repairing a 2010 Prius is less costly than a decade old Golf/Rabbit. How does the 2010 Prius repair cost compare to the 2010 Golf repair cost? Compared to a 10 year old F150 PU truck. If you want total honesty in posting.
  • winter2winter2 Posts: 1,801
    The Prius kicks TDI butt in emissions and you know it. Welcome
    back to the thread already in progress

    If you look at post #753, I left some URL's that show the VW diesels to be cleaner than the Prius.

    I find your above statement to be rather silly considering that VW/Audi got the Green Car of the Year Award.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,110
    When they cannot beat the world record set by the VW TDI they get on some other hobby horse with a broken leg. If the Prius people are so sure of their emissions being cleaner, I would suggest putting a Golf TDI and a Prius each into sealed garages running. So as not to kill any Prius owners we could use rats. And see which lives longer. The hype about clean hybrid emissions would soon be history. CO will kill faster from a Prius gas engine than a VW diesel engine.

    Burning fossil fuel of any kind has negatives. In the big picture diesel is the most efficient of the fossil fuels on a per gallon basis.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Pennsylvania Furnace, PAPosts: 7,751
    We are WELL outside of a comparison of the two vehicles and firmly into "hybrid vs diesel" and personal beefs which has shut down discussions before. This discussion is going on a "time out" until I can clean up the mess and then I'll consider bringing it back.

    Comments dirercted personally at other users are not acceptable, and that's where we always seem to wind up when "diesel vs hybrid" comes into play.

    If this discussion reopens it will be for comparison of the two title vehicles for people who are shopping between them. It will NOT be yet another battleground for people trying to "prove" anything about the relative evils of diesels vs hybrids.

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