What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

ruking1

As you have experienced, there are multiple reasons why VW T TDI remains a screaming BARGAIN: hidden in PLAIN sight and has been so for the MY's 2011, 2012, 2013. 2014 MY is shaping up to continue this trend.

This might be a tad bit vague, but at its CORE, the Audi Q7, Porsche Cayenne, VW Touareg (of course) are still the (VW) Touareg platform. One spin off is the multiple year and higher aggregate sales of the platform, albeit at 3 different model, TRIM and @ multiple pricing points. One STERLING internal goals/objective fulfillment are the multiple years sales of the Porsche Cayenne SINGLEHANDEDLY saved AND simultaneously elevated (catapulted actually) Porsche, despite the vilification of the actions and model of and by Porsche purists. Cumulatively, VW Corp, while probably NOT the market leader in the segment is very competitive with the "Touareg"plaform as BMW and MB. More importantly VW Corp is WAY more profitable than either. (if WSJ articles are to be believed)

I do not know if this is ironic or not, but the over all app 25% of VW (brand only) sales YTD being diesel is an interesting goal for the over all US passenger vehicle fleet being... diesel. This ( NEW goal, IF actually IMPLEMENTED) would further DROP oil consumption rates AND prices (heaven forbid?) !!! We are already (literally) SWIMMING in EXCESS fuel inventories. Why get 30 to 35 mpg on diesel fuel when 15 mpg o n RUG/PUG will do just fine !!!! ????

This is not to wax political, but maybe the latest Syrian debacle is what we NEED to scare the price of oil and (downstream) fuels BACK to lofty levels as delineated by former energy secretary Dr. S. Chu. I did hear him quoted as saying any to all must be done to get and keep prices as close to European prices as possible ($9.00 RUG/PUG) It is a sort of perverse "tail wagging the dog" scenario. It does as most folks would admit, take a lot of money to keep 1 M or so Syrian refugees, even if it is in tents, and in the open deserts. I am sure countries like Jordan and Saudi Arabia, while they can "afford" to, do NOT want to do stuff like this forever! Gee whiz, lots of vacant land in .... Detroit.

If one looks at the dynamics surrounding energy consumption, the drop of consumption is causing a whole new set of PROBLEMS and for many countries !!! (Iran comes to mind) Who'd have ever thought the THREAT of trashing of the price of a barrel of oil would cause so much grief !! ?? The specter of American ENERGY independence, I am swaging, threatens a lot of countries @ the DEEPEST levels. It is about time !

gagrice

I checked a few other locations around the USA on a 2014 Touareg TDI Lux and all about $500 higher on the TMV. 2014 prices are about $6000 more than I paid. They have dropped the base model Sport and added an R-Line between Lux and Executive. Not sure what it has other than the 20" wheels.

ruking1

IF that is true, let me say the 2013 VW Touareg TDI is a screaming screaming (x2) bargain . The Sport in 20/20 hind sight, is even more so. It makes me almost wish (my) the remaining TLC's have actually provided 30 year service already and I can sell em to those off road cultists looking for clean project SUV's.

gagrice

I think you are right. If I had not jumped onto the one I did, I would be waiting for a 2014 in the color combo I want, and looking at a big hit in price. I don't think they changed much. Maybe 2015 model.

elias

gosh, guys, way to get your H8R on.
Aesop might not have agreed, but it's equally valid for a city mouse to consider you country-mice as not carrying a full load or to comment on the type of criminal-mice the country-mice have for neighbors.

as for NYC and cars, I find driving/visiting Manhattan with a vehicle to be awesome and traffic not so bad compared to boston or silicon valley.
I often find street parking available in Manhattan, often legit at a meter!
Residing in Manhattan and parking a car there every day/night would be more difficult than visiting, of course!...

One thing for sure, it is very nice to have a DIESEL engine for all that putt-putt driving in the city block to block. As well as for hammering it on FDR drive.

gagrice

gosh, guys, way to get your H8R on.
Aesop might not have agreed, but it's equally valid for a city mouse to consider you country-mice as not carrying a full load or to comment on the type of criminal-mice the country-mice have for neighbors.

I see it more as the Country Mice being swallowed up by the city Wharf Rats. I move 10 miles from the center of town on 5 acres and the Townies build their ghetto apartments all around me. Now I am in an established rural area 30 miles from town center with minimum 1 acre lots. Hopefully that will keep the City Rats at bay for a while.

I now have a diesel I can make my trips in for shopping without costing so much. I rarely venture all the way into the center of town. I only have to drive 60 miles up the coast to find a peaceful setting for a lunch overlooking the ocean. Life is good with a diesel SUV. Cost $16 for diesel fuel vs $30 for gas to drive one of our other vehicles.

ruking1

..."as for NYC and cars, I find driving/visiting Manhattan with a vehicle to be awesome and traffic not so bad compared to boston or silicon valley. "...

Not that I think you are using a broad brush stroke that leaves KEY (real world) details out, but in most cases and places in either NYC, Boston, downtown SJ or most places in SF, you have brushed over the parking premium issues both in spaces and $$'s. penalties for municipalities (not to mention time) that make an issue of this. That "free" timed and or metered space in SF can wind up costing $75 to $200 IF one is not scrupulously careful/attentive. I know for a fact one can get multiple tickets for a metered space in downtown NYC. I just do not know the current penalties. Almost anywhere in Silicon Valley, CA, one can (STILL) get a (normally) free parking space.

Admittedly, I have not done this for a very long time, but I ran 300 miles in stop and go downtown city Las Vegas traffic with up to 5 people and of course, the A/C on the whole time (104 or so degrees ambient). It ( 03 VW Jetta TDI 5 speed stick shift) posted 44 mpg vs the more normal desert highway 48 to 50 mpg. (app minus)- 8%. So as maladaptive as some folks want to make diesels out for being less than suitable in city traffic, ..... Or if we want to be more specific, what would a stick shift Honda Accord get in like conditions in any to all of the above places and situations?

ruking1

..."I am not sure I understand this, but I will take the posting : 35 mpg (35.486) The only thing I did was mostly "FOLLOW" and tried to stay OFF the brakes especially on the down grades.

What is normally a 210 miles trip (each way range of 2.75 to 3.25 hours, ZERO to 7382 ft, 6200 ft) became a 2 way COMMMUTE (Labor Day National holiday (4.5 hours) !

In addition, LOADS of high altitude (6200 to 7,300 and drop down to 4,800 ft high desert and return to 6,200 ft) stop and go driving and with the A/C on most of the time. (Yosemite Rim Fire haze days, 250 miles away, hazed air coming and goings) "...

This is just a belated update to "old data" on SOS DD, but was having a conversation with the relative who used the Acura MDX to go to the same place point A to Point B, but did not participate in the "loads of high altitude" and stop and go runs. He posted 21 mpg. We (as part of a much longer conversation) were both complaining about the abnormally long time it took on the return trip, and the stop and go nature of this leg (home). He didn't ask what I got for mpg, as he probably just assumed mine was just as bad.

So 21 mpg vs 35 mpg is 14 mpg or 67% MORE.

Stated the other way, 40%

dudleyr

You can't compare two different drivers and get valid mpg claims.

CR recently tested the new MDX and the Mercedes GL350 blutec (both 3 row large SUV's). Under their controlled conditions (by far the best in the industry) the Mercedes was 14 mpg city and 28 highway. The MDX was 13 city and 29 highway. They both got 20 mpg combined, which is excellent for Large 4wd SUV's. The Toureg was tested a few months ago and did better than either at 17 city and 31 highway (24 mpg overall).

So despite anecdotal evidence that does not really amount to anything, actual controlled tests show that the Toureg is 20% more efficient than the MDX. Significant, but the Toureg is smaller, slower, uses more expensive fuel and requires an additive. It still may be worth it, but it is a close call not a 67% slam dunk.

Now the old MDX was not as good, but the new DI gas engines have narrowed the gap considerably.

ruking1

..."You can't compare two different drivers and get valid mpg claims. "...

I just did. I am not sure what threatens you about the real world (point A to point ?

..."not a 67% slam dunk. "... the only one claiming it is a slam dunk is YOU ! I just ran the math.

It is just another data point. Funny how you label REAL WORLD anecdotal evidence as invalid, when really all most folks really cares about is what one gets in the REAL WORLD anyway and the fact is that testing you cite is also anecdotal TESTING. Now really the only way you can get the EXACT mpg during testing is to drive with all the EXACT conditions during TESTING !! ??? Do YOU do that? Please ! I sure as hell do NOT !

YOU might drive for mpg in theory or are looking for the holy grail in one and not the other. That is fine ! I drive in the REAL WORLD and then log the mpg! So did the relative, MDX driver! Do I drive for mpg like Gerdes and the Taylor's or even YOU ? Ah no !

The real question, which I am surprised you didn't ask is what would I have gotten in the Acura MDX ? Then of course, you would probably say you can't compare that and something else was wrong also. Indeed, he got 21 mpg which YOU even go on to say that 20 mpg in "testing" was good ! Funny you didn't say 21 mpg was preposterous!!??

Indeed if I got 24 mpg on the Touareg (when 35 mpg had done) I would have wondered what was wrong with the machine (same trip, less traffic normally posts 31 to 33 mpg).

Then you wax on about a machine that is not even on the market yet and with not even one real world experience.

..."the new DI gas engines have narrowed the gap considerably."...

But hey, happy wishful thinking, dream and apologize on !

Also, the VW T is app 426#'s more than the MDX. Now do you think the mpg would be more or less with the MDX having 426#'s MORE ? Of course another way to ask it is: would the TDI Touareg's mpg be more or less with 426#'s LESS?

gagrice

Who is really likely to compare the smaller MDX to the GL350 Bluetec? The GL is 1200 lbs heavier. It is a true Luxury vehicle. Fuelly.com has over 100 of the MDX owners reporting their mileage and the average is 18 MPG overall on Premium gas. The Touareg TDI which is closer in size to the MDX has over 100 posters averaging 26 MPG. 31% improvement in mileage. Even though it is almost 700lbs heavier than the MDX. And is tow rated at over double the MDX. I don't see why anyone would buy an MDX to tell you the truth. I tried them out in 2007 and they were not even up to the Toyota Sequoia in comfort and ride. If you haul a lot of people the Honda Odyssey would be a better choice.

If people think cross shopping a VW SUV to a Mercedes or BMW SUV is strange, the Acura would really be a stretch.

crkyolfrt

..."the new DI gas engines have narrowed the gap considerably."...

lol...
14 city...hilarious..

he's been drinking the CR Kool Aid err, gasoline..

gagrice

The 2014 MDX is 276lbs lighter than the previous model with less HP. Still respectable 0-60 times. But I cannot find a single off road review for them. Maybe they are like the RX, not recommended for off road usage.

For the hardcore MDX crowd they have their own thread on the new 2014 MDX. Here is a post I thought quite interesting from the biggest MDX fan on the thread.

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f269c17/40#MSG40

ruking1

Sort of a related, but longer term point, is that resale values (while not guaranteed) are normally higher for like model diesel engines than the gasser options.

So for example 03 Jetta $1,405 more for a diesel or 31% better. @ the time I paid a $236 premium.

ruking1

I think Acura needed/wanted to "improve" the EPA ratings, so the Honda Odyssey (minivan) platform was jettison in favor of the RX platform with a few more options and probably some de contenting.

gagrice

It seems a prospective 2014 MDX buyer decided against it when the new MDX did not provide Lumbar support for the passenger seat. Seems strange when even my non luxury Touareg TDI has 10 way power seats with lumbar support for both driver and passenger. I assumed that was standard on all luxo barges. Not on a cheapo japanese luxo it would seem. Even CR is giving the 2014 MDX the old thumbs down treatment.

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f269c17/43#MSG43

ruking1

I am guessing the "de contenting" is "showing," or at least to the folks @ CR.

stever

Car companies always figure people won't notice such stuff. And even though some do, it didn't hurt Toyota when they really cheaped out the Sienna, nor VW when they did likewise with the Passat. Of course, VW lowered the price a good bit on the Passat.

gagrice

I test drove the 2007 MDX and was not at all impressed with the comfort of the seats. They felt like sitting on cardboard. The BMW was not much better as was the Escalade seats. Sales people all tried to tell me it was sportier feeling that way. Well that was one of the things I liked about the MB and the Toyota Sequoia Limited. At a $10k discounted price of $42k the Sequoia won vs $72k for the used MB GL320 CDI. The new MB ML, Jeep GC and Touareg all have very comfy seats. The Touareg's are slightly deeper which suits my long legs very well. That was a complaint of the short testers at C&D on their 5 diesel SUV comparison test. The lowly Touareg TDI still took top honors over the ML350 Bluetec, BMW X5, JGC & Cayenne. Which I agree with whole heartedly. I just wish the Jeep had made it for me to test drive. In three years when and if I am ready to trade, it will be on the list. If the Japanese get their heads out of the sand along with GM & Ford I will give them a go at my money.

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2014-jeep-grand-cherokee-summit-ecodiese- - - l-4x4-vs-2013-volkswagen-touareg-tdi-2013-mercedes-benz-ml350-bluetec-4matic-201- - - 3-porsche-cayenne-diesel-2013-bmw-x5-xdrive35d-final-scoring-performance-data-an- - - d-complete-specs-page-7

ruking1

Yes, I think you are entirely correct. In VW's case, "American made" Passat went from literal ZERO sales to 111,000 (not sure of exact figures) units. They of course set a target of being a competitor in the Camry, Accord, etc. segment. The kicker was the TDI Passat. Almost no oem in THAT segment has a counter to that option. So for VW 's Passat there was precious little down side. They also did this simultaneously with the Jetta. In the year the Jetta was de contented and so called price to compete it actually sold slightly more than the so called "German engineered" versions. This was despite the bru ha ha from the VW faithful. But then at the same time VW wanted and really needed to sell to the "wider customer base than the .... faithful. They also added the tubocharged hybrid Jetta.

stever

I guess that just means that us 'Mericans are just used to settling for less.

Oh, saw Gagrice's "car" today in Minneapolis - white and everything. But it had a hybrid label on it. Had to do a double-take since I didn't remember that they even made one in that flavor.

ruking1

Well for sure ! Being assembled in MX avoids the so called "chicken tax". Golf's, as I recall still come from Wolfsburg (Germany). TMI is the argument for the faithful of whether or not Pueblo MX assembled VW's are even close to German market Jetta's.

gagrice

The Touareg Hybrid was not a mover at all. First VW test drive the salesman said his boss drove the T-Reg Hybrid they got stuck with until he could unload it. Now drives a Touareg TDI Executive. Manager at the dealer I bought from also drives a Touareg TDI Lux. Offered to let me take it for a day when I was still on the fence between it and the ML Bluetec. That is the nice thing about the Touareg. They are not everywhere you look like the silly looking Lexus RX Egg.

ruking1

It would be interesting to see how much CHEAPER a Touareg would be IF NOT for the foreign car "chicken tax" !!!!! (in theory, 25% cheaper than some unknown starting point, as a departure for discussion)

I took out the sticker. It is assembled in Slovakia. The engine is from Hungary. The transmission, as noted in prior posts is from Japan. US/CN parts are 1%, Slovakia 32%, Germany 25%. I do not think that 1% US/CN will qualify it for a NAFTA tax exemption.

I am sure it is a safe bet the US (import) tax agency/s made more on these than VW does. Here are three titled taxes to kick this off, 1 luxury tax 2. CAFE tax 3.gas guzzlers tax.

gagrice

The 25% chicken tax put on in the 1960s was on small trucks. It is still there so all the small trucks are built here or like Ford they pull a quick one. The Transit Connect comes to the USA as a van with windows from Turkey. They take the windows out and put in metal panels and voila a small delivery van. Toyota would send over trucks with no bed and have them installed here. Now the Tacoma is more American than the GM PU trucks.

ruking1

..."sales to 111,000 (not sure of exact figures) units. "...

Cars.com lists the 2012 US Passat figures @ 117,023 units. 2010/2011 MY's were more "SOFT " openings @ 12,497, 22,875 units respectively

ohenryx

I think you're both forgetting that there was no 2011 model Passat. For quite a while there, you simply could not buy a new Passat, there were none.

ruking1

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01/volkswagen-passat-sales-figures.html

I think you might want want to look at the reference. It could indeed be a mistake or misprint. Further, if you are saying NO Passat's were made in the Chattanooga TN plant in 2011, that would directly contradict what VW has said and done (in reality). They say the first (PASSAT) customer car was built in April 2011. (you can of course google this)

Now whether they kept these for sale as 2011's sold in 2011's (other markets?), or sold in 2011's as 2012's is not in my pay grade or for that matter interest. They just didn't go LITERALLY from ZERO to 117,023 units in the NEW plant. Of course, I could have said they made 22,875 "practice" cars. But even I know that sounds ... TACKY.

[Deleted User]

So, the Corvette is easier to get out of than a Boxer/Cayman/911?

I see a lot of men over 60 (presumably) driving Corvette's. So many that GM should make an "exit mode" for the power drivers seat. Hear me out here. Upon opening the drivers door, the seat rises to full height, then swings left and tilts slightly down allowing the driver to stand w/o a painful, (and possibly embarrassing) struggle.

While I am thinking about it, the hatch should automatically pop open and hand you your golf bags!

stever

Why not? Ford had their Eddie Bauer editions.

Vettes could have their Lazy Boy models. Us guys of a Corvette age could talk about our lifts, but we won't mean suspensions. And our wives can talk about their kind of lifts. :-)

stever

Best Cars If You Hate To Buy Gas (Sorry, candidates are limited to vehicles with a maximum base price of up to $45,000).

gagrice

Two that started out with a bang and fizzled are the A3 TDI and the Lexus CT. August was down for the GLK250 Bluetec. Not many in the country to choose from. Looks like the 2014s are coming in. Be interesting to see how they sell. The GLK250 would be my choice out of that group hands down.

gagrice

Only engine option is the V6 diesel with ZF 8 speed transmission. Will it be offered in the USA?
Has to be a much better vehicle than that silly looking EVOQUE. With 240 HP and 440 ft lbs of torque, it sounds competitive with the German offerings. Is it possible they are using the BMW engine?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/car-manufacturers/land-rover/10283482/2014-L- and-Rover-Discovery-unveiled.html

ohenryx

if you are saying NO Passat's were made in the Chattanooga TN plant in 2011, that would directly contradict what VW has said and done (in reality).

Come now, you know very well that I did not say that. What I said was (cut and paste, direct quote): there was no 2011 model Passat

And I stand by those words. This site (edmunds.com) agrees with me. Please open a new tab in your browser and go to:

edmunds.com/volksawagen/passat

You will see 2014 2013 2012 2010 2009 and absolutely NO 2011. Furthermore, the page that you provided the url for shows that there were zero Passats sold in April, 1 in May, and 2 in June. That is a grand total of 3 Passats sold in the entire United States over a period of 3 months. I rest my case.

ruking1

Did I read Edmunds.com indicated a skipped 2011 model year? Yes , before I wrote the post. Did I forget? No ! My (corrected) original point was the real world situation was a SOFT opening for the 2012 Passat (made in 2011, KEY point here, which you are glossing over), rather than a ZERO to 117k+ plus unit gig for 2012, less we get too far afield. This will not change whether goodcarbadcar made a mistake, lied, clarifies or refuses to change the data, because they say that are correct.

Did I know what you said? Yes! You even know I know what you said, AND you know what I said. So unless you enjoy repeating yourself, it is not helpful to the obvious issue. Your issue is with Goodcarbadcar.com, not me. Email them to to clarify the data points. If I do it, you probably will not believe what I say/post. Case is still open, till you get a correction retraction or clarification. You would be doing a small part in internet "correctness". To rest your case skipping the other months (total of 22,835 unit SALES of 2011 Passat)? RIGHT. Till then, the VW Passat reads 22,835 in 2011 US sales, but you knew that, if you read it.

Did I misquote you? NO !

[Deleted User]

Oh yeah. The Lexus CT is just a restyled Prius. A lady at my church drives one. It is really nice, inside and out, but she complains that it is loud, and has really poor acceleration and braking.

When I told her that it was a Prius underneath, she got a scowl on her face. I think it was that moment when the truth finally hit her. She was the proud owner of a $41,000 Prius....or Plexus. How about Prixus? LOL.

She paid $41,000 for a Lexus badge.

stever

Ouch. I bet you ask older Volvo or Jag owners how they like their Ford too. (I do that with a sister-in-law, LOL).

gagrice

Has all the faults of the Prius and little of the pluses. Very small inside. If you want a quiet ride going over 35 MPH don't buy a Prius or one built on its frame.

For that she could have bought a loaded Passat TDI and got as good mileage, and a LOT more room. And had enough money left over for 10 years of diesel. Buying a luxo name plate, ain't what it used to be.

qbrozen

Sometimes it is just a silly comparison, though. I'm on my 2nd volvo from the Ford-owned era and there hasn't been a single Ford part on either.

Some vehicles truly are twin sisters from the same parents but one was put up for adoption and wound up with a new name; some are like stepsisters and only share some components; some are completely unrelated but wound up at the same card table at thanksgiving dinner through a common aquaintance.

The closest Jag or Volvo ever came to Ford is the stepsister analogy. They shared platforms and just about nothing else. Although you can find a Volvo engine in some Land Rovers, and I believe a Jag v8 engine was used in some Fords (such as the Lincoln LS). I'd say it was a pretty well-balanced partnership. It certainly isn't like a Saab-baged Chevy Trailblazer, for instance.

stever

Sure, but it still bugs a few people when you point out who ultimately owns their "brand".

After all, a Jag is just a Tata. An Indian *gasp* brand.

qbrozen

Oh, sure, some vain people just can't stand it. haha.

ruking1

..."My (corrected) original point was the real world situation was a SOFT opening for the 2012 Passat (made in 2011, KEY point here, which you are glossing over), rather than a ZERO to 117k+ plus unit gig for 2012, less we get too far afield. This will not change whether goodcarbadcar made a mistake, lied, clarifies or refuses to change the data, because they say that are correct. "...

Clarification from GCBC.com (T.C, CEO) is in concert with the (my corrected) original point, the 2012 VW Passat had a soft opening starting in (VW press releases state) April 2011. One can add the 2011 VW Passat sales to the over all sales of 2012 VW Passat sales of 117,855 for a grand total of 139,858 units.

Michaell

And, Volvo is Chinese owned.

What's more important - where the profits go or where the car is assembled?

ruking1

I would guess it would depend on perspective. For a (world) oem to NOT be in the China market would probably be a SERIOUS disadvantage. Many articles have been written about the fact that years ago the US and European markets ceased to be the car market leaders vs China.

So for example, while the big three (US: GM, Ford, Chrysler) have consistently degraded their domestic reputations (self inflicted GSW's) both in US and European markets, they do NOT suffer that baggage in China markets. Indeed "American" products are COVETED! Even to the extent China markets will pay MUCH more FOR US cars than probably US domestic markets will !!!

Indeed European auto sales are mired in a dire downward spiral. The US is (only this year) coming BACK from a 10.5 M sales 2009 sales year (normal good year being 14.5 M to 16.5 M)

ruking1

This article could be the background picture or macro to where OEMS will go in US markets.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/map-americas-future-where-growth-105600411.html

stever

Forget the price of diesel (or RUG).

The big ticket item will be the cost of a gallon of water. That's about the only thing the dying Great Lakes region has going for it (I think the current car sales bubble is just a bubble).

qbrozen

What's more important - where the profits go or where the car is assembled?

That's an argument I gave up long ago in that 'What makes an American car' or whatever it was called. It seems a large number of people, or at least the more vocal ones, can't seem to get over who the owner is, regardless of how or where the product is produced.

As long as volvo continues to develop and build their own cars, I don't care where the profits go. They still employ folks in Sweden and the US, after all.

ruking1

It is interesting that Sweden has begun to reverse its (long held and practiced) socialist (democratic) ways (in many ways a "poster child for the genre). It has started along the path to "freer" or at least capitalistic markets. My take is it is a tad sad Volvo had to be sold to (probably) help them see, or start down that path. But then on the other hand, ....maybe that is what it took/takes. Keep in mind also, that the former owners who sold Volvo to the Chinese probably could not make it work. I have read in passing Volvo fetched fire sale prices, and they were ecstatic to get that.

ruking1

Actually that is more true for (a hell of) a lot of places. I was trying to spin a pun that a lot of places would/could be literal and figurative HELL without H20. LOL Jack Daniels would probably be a problematic brand (or @ least lose a heck of a lot of $$$ goodwill) without that water flowing throughout that limestone cave.

stever

Mr. Jack is funny - he mellows it drop by drop, but if you see the "dropper", that thing will flush a bunch of gallons of mash a minute.

Push comes to shove, you could burn it in your oil burner, right? :-)