What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

gagrice

Mr_Shiftright said:

The Mercedes GLE Blue Tec is a great setup. Little diesel cars aren't sports car. Giving them 300+ whatever ft. lbs of torque is pointless. Diesels are happiest moving big things around. You don't see diesel motorcycles or diesel runabouts.

The GLE is only a few hundred pounds more than the GLK with that engine. I found it very snappy as diesels go. My big concern is passing on two lane highways going from 65 to 85 to get around some jerk in a Prius driving 55 MPH in a 65 zone. That and cruising all day long at 75 MPH. I have no doubt the GLE300d will go a minimum of 650 miles on a tank of diesel.

Heck, I may buy one and get rid of my wife's Lexus.

ruking1

gagrice said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

The Mercedes GLE Blue Tec is a great setup. Little diesel cars aren't sports car. Giving them 300+ whatever ft. lbs of torque is pointless. Diesels are happiest moving big things around. You don't see diesel motorcycles or diesel runabouts.

The GLE is only a few hundred pounds more than the GLK with that engine. I found it very snappy as diesels go. My big concern is passing on two lane highways going from 65 to 85 to get around some jerk in a Prius driving 55 MPH in a 65 zone. That and cruising all day long at 75 MPH. I have no doubt the GLE300d will go a minimum of 650 miles on a tank of diesel.

Heck, I may buy one and get rid of my wife's Lexus.

I probably shouldn't post this, for any number of reasons; one being TMI. Passing upgrade on mountain roads (up to app (7,300 ft) is pretty close to effortless, (given that passing has real & implied risks) I routinely pass ( again upgrade) eight cylinder gasser cars and trucks !

We routinely cruise @ 85 mph +. Even the wife does 75 mph +! The nexus here is that the car is usually packed with easily 200 #'s plus every time! (food, clothes, winter gear, ski gear, home gear, furniture, etc)

On the downgrade it is slightly different, in that we pass going down grade, but we use the paddle shifters in lieu of shaving off energy with braking getting up to 49.8 mpg, for up to app 120 miles! It is hard to resist the temptation to take it back up to 85+ mph, where the mpg crashes to 36 mpg average! So the real question is what kind of mpg numbers do I want to post or ... have fun ? I vote for YEE HAW most times! So in that sense 36 mpg is artificially LOW! Oil consumption in about 27,000 miles is absolutely nil. Oil consumption on the TDI Touareg has been app 3/4 of a L, same mileage.

ruking1

Slow diesel Newsday ULSD @ $1.95, RUG @ $2.23, PUG@ $2.47.

The entertaining portion is that mainstream pundits want you to believe higher RUG/PUG prices are better for you! ( tell me you gasser types are not that gullible? ) I'll take the ULSD prices cheaper, thank you very much ! Just loving it, even as I have no additional places to go! I unfortunately do think the taxocrates are chomping @ the bit to raise the fuel taxes!

Mr_Shiftright

That will never happen until the sun burns out. SK and Japan are the only balancing act the USA has in Asia---a balance it may be losing anyway as time goes on.

I have no idea why SK is jumping on the VW pile-on, but I don't think it will amount to anything. It's the least of VW's troubles right now.

I still think this is a great opportunity for GM to jump into the diesel car market with both feet, if they have the guts. Toyota's not interested in it, and with GM's new EV, they could have a one-two punch in the "alt" market.

andres3

Mr_Shiftright said:

The Mercedes GLE Blue Tec is a great setup. Little diesel cars aren't sports car. Giving them 300+ whatever ft. lbs of torque is pointless. Diesels are happiest moving big things around. You don't see diesel motorcycles or diesel runabouts.

Well, Audi won several 24 Hours of Le Mans with a diesel powered race car. Yes, Electric has taken over in recent years besting the Diesel for a 24 hour endurance race.

texases

andres3 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

The Mercedes GLE Blue Tec is a great setup. Little diesel cars aren't sports car. Giving them 300+ whatever ft. lbs of torque is pointless. Diesels are happiest moving big things around. You don't see diesel motorcycles or diesel runabouts.

Well, Audi won several 24 Hours of Le Mans with a diesel powered race car. Yes, Electric has taken over in recent years besting the Diesel for a 24 hour endurance race.

You mean hybrid, not straight EV, right?

Mr_Shiftright

I think maybe he was being sarcastic? Well sure, if you want to pay for a diesel race car you can have one.

The upside in diesel trucks and SUVs is that when well cared-for, they can run a long, long time. The downside is that a rebuilt engine is shockingly expensive when you don't take really good care of them.

Even a Ford powerstroke engine is up to $10K-$12K for a rebuild.

texases

Looked under the hood of a Ford Powerstroke p/u a year ago at the car show - looked like the insides of the space shuttle! Nary a recognizable part of an engine in view; hoses, pipes, turbos, wiring, coolers, yes.

ruking1

Well really it is not rocket science! It really starts with keeping the "correct " maintenance intervals! Another is keeping the vehicle clean. Garaging a vehicle goes a very long way. Get things fixed when they beak. One doesn't even have to run the vehicle regularly, just as long as the battery is kept on a trickle charger.

I just recently fired up the 2001 Corvette, which I hadn't done in about a year! I needed to get the TP back up to 35 psi, as it was down around 19 psi, from sitting for a year or more ! The Lexus service advisor had grave doubts as to whether or not it would start ! LOL! By his own hand, he twisted the starter once and it fired up immediately like it had been running five minutes before! Needless to said he was quite impressed! He then proceeded to pump the tires up to 35 PSI ! Like I said I can't even make this stuff up!

andres3

texases said:

andres3 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

The Mercedes GLE Blue Tec is a great setup. Little diesel cars aren't sports car. Giving them 300+ whatever ft. lbs of torque is pointless. Diesels are happiest moving big things around. You don't see diesel motorcycles or diesel runabouts.

Well, Audi won several 24 Hours of Le Mans with a diesel powered race car. Yes, Electric has taken over in recent years besting the Diesel for a 24 hour endurance race.

You mean hybrid, not straight EV, right?

I think you are right, hybrid. Would be interesting if they could make an EV last 24 hours, or maybe they could figure out a way to change the battery so fast that it is like a slightly long pit stop and fill-up.

To be fair, the diesel only won out in past times because you could go more laps between fill-ups, thereby reducing the amount of pit stops needed in a 24 hour race. Gave it a competitive edge even if it wasn't quite as fast around the track.

stevedebi

Mr_Shiftright said:

andres3 said:

I would think someone looking for a little extra oomph might still prefer the 2.0 TDI to the 1.4T, and then you get a couple extra MPG to boot? Also, does the 1.4T get the sophisticated DSG Auto or the antiquated 99 cent store slushbox?

Not sure there's any extra oomph there...the 0-60 times for the '14 TDI and '16 SE are about the same. The transmission listed is a "6-speed automatic" but I didn't see anything about DSG so far. The 1.4T is a fairly zippy little engine, at least compared to the old 2.0 (woof, woof!).

The times may be the same, but at what RPM? I love driving our Passat TDI; great pickup at any speed, and practically loafs on the highway.

I suspect the TDI would get much better MPG when driven with "spirit".

Mr_Shiftright

It's an endurance race. The strategies are entirely different than a race-race. Most laps wins, right?

stevedebi

Michaell said:

andres3 said:

Michaell said:

andres3 said:

I would think someone looking for a little extra oomph might still prefer the 2.0 TDI to the 1.4T, and then you get a couple extra MPG to boot? Also, does the 1.4T get the sophisticated DSG Auto or the antiquated 99 cent store slushbox?

The 1.4T gets a conventional 6-speed automatic, not the DSG.

I wouldn't miss it. The one test drive I took with a car equipped with the DSG, I didn't much care for the "feel" of the transmission. Plus the extra maintenance costs associated with it.

What was that one DSG vehicle test drive in? I have to admit, the TDI DSG is a lot lazier in "D" mode than I'd like, but I guess that's how they squeeze the EPA for great fuel economy numbers. Maintenance costs of the DSG are probably greatly outweighed by the fuel savings vs. conventional 6-speed auto.

I test drove a used CC with the DSG a few years back. Have they been improved since then?

I've not driven DSG with an gas engine. I imagine it is different from the TDI.

andres3

Mr_Shiftright said:

It's an endurance race. The strategies are entirely different than a race-race. Most laps wins, right?

Yes, most laps = most distance traveled with the main rule being you got a pre-determined 24 hours to travel them.

It is a great system and race, because reliability, durability, and long term sustained speed are important criteria. You can't just make your car the fastest at the expense of reliability or you'll lose in shop time.

ruking1

Gasser owners! It might be a big mistake if you're doing this.https://www.yahoo.com/autos/biggest-myth-warming-car-winter-164138459.html

xwesx

ruking1 said:

Gasser owners! It might be a big mistake if you're doing this.https://www.yahoo.com/autos/biggest-myth-warming-car-winter-164138459.html

Yep, I've said this for a long while. But, most people really don't idle the car to warm it up (from a mechanical standpoint), they idle it to warm it up (or even cool it down) from a comfort standpoint. What's more, a gasoline engine does warm up while idling (not so for diesel), so the different between a get-in-and-go mode vs. a let-it-warm-up mode results in a more comfortable, more consistent drive all around.

With the widespread adoption of auto starts, get-in-and-go mode is all but extinct (around here, at least).

ruking1

xwesx said:

ruking1 said:

Gasser owners! It might be a big mistake if you're doing this.https://www.yahoo.com/autos/biggest-myth-warming-car-winter-164138459.html

Yep, I've said this for a long while. But, most people really don't idle the car to warm it up (from a mechanical standpoint), they idle it to warm it up (or even cool it down) from a comfort standpoint. What's more, a gasoline engine does warm up while idling (not so for diesel), so the different between a get-in-and-go mode vs. a let-it-warm-up mode results in a more comfortable, more consistent drive all around.

With the widespread adoption of auto starts, get-in-and-go mode is all but extinct (around here, at least).

I do it with diesels too (start...GO) , it is just as applicable.

gagrice

Our diesel trucks in the Arctic idled all day long. We had a device that kicked the RPMs up to 1600, which Ford considered optimum. We got the device installed by Ford at the dealer in Anchorage. At any given time at least a thousand diesel F250 vehicles were idling. Some shops had plug-ins so we could plug in the vehicle to keep it warm while we serviced their phone systems. Nine out of ten vehicles were Ford F series diesels. Gas engines were not long for this World in Arctic conditions.

ruking1

Indeed, the diesel has such range over a gasser!

But wait EV's winter woes https://www.yahoo.com/autos/worrisome-problem-electric-cars-no-one-talking-200400099.html

Interesting revelations about ethanol ! Four times dirtier then the "dirty diesel gate" and four times as deadlly per EPA's own research! ! ? http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-wp-blm-ethanol-comment-1666beb8-bf79-11e5-98c8-7fab78677d51-20160120-story.html

ruking1

Idiotically, it is the 95 to 99.98% of the black frying pans ( gassers/diesels ) calling the .00185667 % (diesels ) BLACK!

(Less than 500,000 affected VW diesels/269.3 M PVF 2013 NHTSA reg vehicles)

The VW "diesel gate" is being COMPLETELY blown out of proportion in comparison to the mandated 10 % ethanol!!! !! This is not even counting the 90% of the RUG/PUG component!!

texases

Doesn't work that way. If 100,000,000 gasser cars are causing 245 deaths, and 100,000 diesels are causing 60 deaths, then each diesel car is 245 times more deadly than each gasser. The crime (and fines) are on a per-diesel basis.

ruking1

texases said:

Doesn't work that way. If 100,000,000 gasser cars are causing 245 deaths, and 100,000 diesels are causing 60 deaths, then each diesel car is 245 times more deadly than each gasser. The crime (and fines) are on a per-diesel basis.

According to the article, your take is totally blown out of portion! It is per car for both!

texases

Nope, read it again.

ruking1

It's crystal to me, from first reading! Bottom line: gassers cause the overwhelming majority of pollution & the @ issue N0x! The real issue is the truth about ethanol/gas doesn't conform to the liberal environmental [non-permissible content removed] agenda ! If you have an issue with what they're saying, you should contact the Chicago Tribune! The Chicago Tribune does not have the reputation as a right wing conspiracy type news organization !

imidazol97

This gets repetitive to hear the continual denial, but the problem is that VW violated the rules for diesel pollution and did it intentionally by deceit and illegal means. They got caught. They admitted their crime.

As to how to remediate the presence of the tools of the crime, I can understand where the people owning them would like to keep the polluting vehicles with the pollution and the benefit of that pollution in higher power and efficiency than if the pollution were legal. On the other hand, they need to be fixed by VW or be taken off the roads. No fix: no plates.

texases

ruking1 said:

It's crystal to me, from first reading! Bottom line: gassers cause the overwhelming majority of pollution & the @ issue N0x! If you have an issue with what they're saying, you should contact the Chicago Tribune!

?? The diesels resulted in 60 extra deaths per year, ethanol in 245. Those are total numbers, not per car. Right?

ruking1

imidazol97 said:

This gets repetitive to hear the continual denial, but the problem is that VW violated the rules for diesel pollution and did it intentionally by deceit and illegal means. They got caught. They admitted their crime.

As to how to remediate the presence of the tools of the crime, I can understand where the people owning them would like to keep the polluting vehicles with the pollution and the benefit of that pollution in higher power and efficiency than if the pollution were legal. On the other hand, they need to be fixed by VW or be taken off the roads. No fix: no plates.

Truly the recall laws are NOT written that way! This should be totally forgotten by 2018 , which is what my 2009 TDI smog certification is good to ! If EPA/CARB takes longer to approve, a renewal to 2020 is a more realistic date !

Yup, gasser/ ethanol denial is widespread, not to mention repetitious! That is more than obvious !

In other news, they say that EV vehicles might hit 1,000,000 units from 400,000 in 2020! Given 2013 PVF figures of 269.3 million = .00371333%!
http://news.yahoo.com/u-may-not-hit-1-million-electric-vehicles-185410805--finance.html
It makes me wonder how much the diesel PVF will go to, from 3 to 5% in 2016?

stever

VW won the last one of these that rolled around

VW tries to block lemon law hearing over diesel cheating scandal (wptv.com)

carboy21

EPA can poison 100,000 people in Flint, Michigan by getting cheap water from a river instead of the Lake Huron., as the residents of Flint are poor and underprivileged.
But Californians must be protected from breathing NOX because the EPA is a tool of the rich liberal eco-[non-permissible content removed].
EPA should be sued for $48 Billion dollars for harming nearly 100,000 American citizens.

Over to the "motorheads"

texases

Here's a lawyers take on the Florida case:
http://jalopnik.com/there-might-be-a-way-to-get-your-cheating-volkswagen-di-1754235462

ruking1

stever said:

VW won the last one of these that rolled around

VW tries to block lemon law hearing over diesel cheating scandal (wptv.com)

I posted on this thread a while ago about how Honda (Accord, gasser) lost a suit to an "ordinary consumer" in a local small claims court (San Mateo, CA) , for EPA/CARB mpg false advertising. ! Honda of course won a federal case removing it from CA/state small claims & keeping it under class action. So there are both precedence & prior case law for this. So the federal appeals court is actually the Ninth Circuit Court, clearly not a right wing leaning federal court

Mr_Shiftright

carboy21 said:

EPA can poison 100,000 people in Flint, Michigan by getting cheap water from a river instead of the Lake Huron., as the residents of Flint are poor and underprivileged.
But Californians must be protected from breathing NOX because the EPA is a tool of the rich liberal eco-[non-permissible content removed].
EPA should be sued for $48 Billion dollars for harming nearly 100,000 American citizens.

Over to the "motorheads"

Somebody gave you a carload of bad information. The culprit is the State of Michigan's Department of Environmental Quality. The DEQ was *warned* by the EPA in a memo that the water contained too much lead.

The EPA did the right thing here, so give credit where it is due.

The CARB in California has strong support from its population through all economic strata. We are, if anything, encouraging further regulation of pollution. What the rest of the country wants to breath, swallow and eat is their business with the Feds. If say Texas wants to abolish every pollution control in existence and somehow lobby the Feds to allow them to do it, more power (and smog) to them!

You seem to confuse CARB with EPA?

stever

carboy21 said:

EPA can poison 100,000 people in Flint, Michigan by getting cheap water from a river

Guess you don't get to pick your poison. Follow the money....

"For almost five decades, Flint got its water from Detroit, but then Detroit, amid bankruptcy and looking for new revenue, announced plans to raise its prices. So in April 2014, Flint instead started drawing water from the Flint River.

Flint had serious fiscal problems of its own, and from 2011 to 2015, its finances were under the control of a series of emergency managers appointed by Mr. Snyder’s administration. The decision to try to save money by switching water supplies was approved by one of the emergency managers." (NY Times)

gagrice

texases said:

ruking1 said:

It's crystal to me, from first reading! Bottom line: gassers cause the overwhelming majority of pollution & the @ issue N0x! If you have an issue with what they're saying, you should contact the Chicago Tribune!

?? The diesels resulted in 60 extra deaths per year, ethanol in 245. Those are total numbers, not per car. Right?

So because we are using ethanol 245 a year will die from the NOx. Shouldn't the 235 million car owners forced to use this toxic ethanol laced gas be as upset as those with a VW TDI? Deadly NOx is the issue. Why no class action lawsuits by owners that were TOLD BY THE EPA & CARB that ethanol is greener and cleaner than regular gasoline?

gagrice

carboy21 said:

EPA can poison 100,000 people in Flint, Michigan by getting cheap water from a river instead of the Lake Huron., as the residents of Flint are poor and underprivileged.
But Californians must be protected from breathing NOX because the EPA is a tool of the rich liberal eco-[non-permissible content removed].
EPA should be sued for $48 Billion dollars for harming nearly 100,000 American citizens.

Over to the "motorheads"

And in the case of Flint water the EPA directly told the people the water was safe to drink. As did the Michigan DEQ. Ironic the EPA chose Michigan to file their lawsuit against VW.

stever

That's what happens when you don't fund the regulators. Having a "real" emissions program going in California would have exposed VW years ago and saved VW (and our lungs) a lot of grief and expense.

Next up - scooters.

Don't You Dare Try to Take Away Italians' Vespas (citylab.com)

ruking1

stever said:

That's what happens when you don't fund the regulators. Having a "real" emissions program going in California would have exposed VW years ago and saved VW (and our lungs) a lot of grief and expense.

Next up - scooters.

Don't You Dare Try to Take Away Italians' Vespas (citylab.com)

With all due respect, the attitude is most naïve. Those agencies are the way they are because they've been politicized/weaponized to do EXACTLY what they are doing!

gagrice

Mr_Shiftright said:

carboy21 said:

EPA can poison 100,000 people in Flint, Michigan by getting cheap water from a river instead of the Lake Huron., as the residents of Flint are poor and underprivileged.
But Californians must be protected from breathing NOX because the EPA is a tool of the rich liberal eco-[non-permissible content removed].
EPA should be sued for $48 Billion dollars for harming nearly 100,000 American citizens.

Over to the "motorheads"

Somebody gave you a carload of bad information. The culprit is the State of Michigan's Department of Environmental Quality. The DEQ was *warned* by the EPA in a memo that the water contained too much lead.

The EPA did the right thing here, so give credit where it is due.

The CARB in California has strong support from its population through all economic strata. We are, if anything, encouraging further regulation of pollution. What the rest of the country wants to breath, swallow and eat is their business with the Feds. If say Texas wants to abolish every pollution control in existence and somehow lobby the Feds to allow them to do it, more power (and smog) to them!

You seem to confuse CARB with EPA?

Not sure where you read that. There is no lead in the water. It is in the pipes of the older homes. The water from the river has a low PH factor which causes corrosion and exposure to lead in the joints. Both the EPA and DEQ told the Mayor and head of the water utility that the water was safe. There is a good article that explains it from start. It is an interview with the mayor that was involved with the switch over to save money. It eliminates the liberal hatred of the Governor.

I have been informed that the protective coating on the insides of the piping that prevents lead leaching is actually called “mineral scale”. While biofilm does coat the insides of piping, it is the mineral scale that is the chief barrier that prevents lead from being leached into the water supply.

http://www.eclectablog.com/2015/10/interview-flint-mayor-dayne-walling-talks-about-flints-water-crisis-emergency-managers-and-the-state-government.html

stever

ruking1 said:

Those agencies are the way they are because they've been politicized/weaponized to do EXACTLY what they are doing!

Leaving it up to Big Corp to regulate themselves is how we got here. What's fascinating is how Big Corp manages to mess up complying with the regs, since Big Corp paid a lot of money to get the regs written the way they wanted in the first place.

Mr_Shiftright

gagrice said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

carboy21 said:

EPA can poison 100,000 people in Flint, Michigan by getting cheap water from a river instead of the Lake Huron., as the residents of Flint are poor and underprivileged.
But Californians must be protected from breathing NOX because the EPA is a tool of the rich liberal eco-[non-permissible content removed].
EPA should be sued for $48 Billion dollars for harming nearly 100,000 American citizens.

Over to the "motorheads"

Somebody gave you a carload of bad information. The culprit is the State of Michigan's Department of Environmental Quality. The DEQ was *warned* by the EPA in a memo that the water contained too much lead.

The EPA did the right thing here, so give credit where it is due.

The CARB in California has strong support from its population through all economic strata. We are, if anything, encouraging further regulation of pollution. What the rest of the country wants to breath, swallow and eat is their business with the Feds. If say Texas wants to abolish every pollution control in existence and somehow lobby the Feds to allow them to do it, more power (and smog) to them!

You seem to confuse CARB with EPA?

Not sure where you read that. There is no lead in the water. It is in the pipes of the older homes. The water from the river has a low PH factor which causes corrosion and exposure to lead in the joints. Both the EPA and DEQ told the Mayor and head of the water utility that the water was safe. There is a good article that explains it from start. It is an interview with the mayor that was involved with the switch over to save money. It eliminates the liberal hatred of the Governor.

I have been informed that the protective coating on the insides of the piping that prevents lead leaching is actually called “mineral scale”. While biofilm does coat the insides of piping, it is the mineral scale that is the chief barrier that prevents lead from being leached into the water supply.

http://www.eclectablog.com/2015/10/interview-flint-mayor-dayne-walling-talks-about-flints-water-crisis-emergency-managers-and-the-state-government.html

That is correct. The lead came from the pipes that were corroded by the salinity of the river. It is also correct the EPA warned the state of Michigan of the problem. Source of info is Jan 16, 2016 article in The New Yorker.

Gov. Synder pretty much ran out of excuses and apologized for his state's handling of the matter.

What all this shows is how important state environmental agencies really are, and how they need to be kept strong and well-funded.

xwesx

ruking1 said:

I do it with diesels too (start...GO) , it is just as applicable.

Yes, and perhaps even moreso. My grandfather's 1997 F350 Powerstroke literally wouldn't warm up to the point of being able to heat the cab if it was idling. But, drive it for even a couple of miles, and it was incredibly toasty.

When I drove it down to Oregon, our first morning on the road was spent at Beaver Creek, YT. It was about five degrees that morning, after having been around 40 in Palmer, AK, the morning before. I started the truck, then went back to the motorhome for breakfast. We made it back over to the truck probably 20+ minutes later and the cab was still stone cold. Had that been a gasoline engine, the cab would have been fully warmed. That said, I was pulling ~13,000# on that trip and I averaged 12 mpg. With a gas engine, I would have been really pleased with anything over half of that!

ruking1

If it weren't so politicized/weaponized I would almost agree with you !

gagrice

Gov. Synder pretty much ran out of excuses and apologized for his state's handling of the matter.

What all this shows is how important state environmental agencies really are, and how they need to be kept strong and well-funded.


No matter how well funded they are they seem to screw up. CARB let VW TDI spew up to 40 times more NOx than permitted by law for over 6 years. Which proves their testing is a joke.

In the case of Flint water, The major fault falls on the backs of the EPA and DEQ. Snyder did not know anymore than the Mayor.

I feel misled by the State Department of Environmental Quality. Even with the Environmental Protection Agency at the federal level, there needed to be more aggressive communication. I reached out to the White House in January of 2015 because I wanted a direct line to the EPA. While staff were apparently having discussions among themselves with the DEQ, those concerns weren’t coming to me from the regional administrator of the USEPA.

So, I was asking questions. I was asking for information. And I was being told by people in authority who had the ability to regulate the City’s drinking water that it met the standards and, whatever the next issue was that had to be addressed like the TTHMs and the carbon filter, we had action plans in place for the issues that came up. It’s just really tough to look back and see the government failures that led to the crisis that we’re now experiencing.

texases

Hmmm...sounds like some folks here would be fine with tax evaders keeping their money if they don't get caught when they file their return..IRS screwed up the first time, after all...

carboy21

Mr_Shiftright said:

carboy21 said:

EPA can poison 100,000 people in Flint, Michigan by getting cheap water from a river instead of the Lake Huron., as the residents of Flint are poor and underprivileged.
But Californians must be protected from breathing NOX because the EPA is a tool of the rich liberal eco-[non-permissible content removed].
EPA should be sued for $48 Billion dollars for harming nearly 100,000 American citizens.

Over to the "motorheads"

Somebody gave you a carload of bad information. The culprit is the State of Michigan's Department of Environmental Quality. The DEQ was *warned* by the EPA in a memo that the water contained too much lead.

The EPA did the right thing here, so give credit where it is due.

The CARB in California has strong support from its population through all economic strata. We are, if anything, encouraging further regulation of pollution. What the rest of the country wants to breath, swallow and eat is their business with the Feds. If say Texas wants to abolish every pollution control in existence and somehow lobby the Feds to allow them to do it, more power (and smog) to them!

You seem to confuse CARB with EPA?

Did you know that the head of EPA in Flint, Michigan has resigned. Why ? Got bored of the job ?

gagrice

The CARB in California has strong support from its population through all economic strata.

I will assume you are making a joke. If you ask 100 people on the streets of any CA city what they think of CARB, you will get 99 confused looks. People will say they are all about the environment, clean air and water. However they are clueless about the regulations and what is involved. Worst part is they are allowed to vote.

Mr_Shiftright

gagrice said:

Gov. Synder pretty much ran out of excuses and apologized for his state's handling of the matter.

What all this shows is how important state environmental agencies really are, and how they need to be kept strong and well-funded.


No matter how well funded they are they seem to screw up. CARB let VW TDI spew up to 40 times more NOx than permitted by law for over 6 years. Which proves their testing is a joke.

In the case of Flint water, The major fault falls on the backs of the EPA and DEQ. Snyder did not know anymore than the Mayor.

I feel misled by the State Department of Environmental Quality. Even with the Environmental Protection Agency at the federal level, there needed to be more aggressive communication. I reached out to the White House in January of 2015 because I wanted a direct line to the EPA. While staff were apparently having discussions among themselves with the DEQ, those concerns weren’t coming to me from the regional administrator of the USEPA.

So, I was asking questions. I was asking for information. And I was being told by people in authority who had the ability to regulate the City’s drinking water that it met the standards and, whatever the next issue was that had to be addressed like the TTHMs and the carbon filter, we had action plans in place for the issues that came up. It’s just really tough to look back and see the government failures that led to the crisis that we’re now experiencing.

Well....uh....if someone plants cheating software in a device that allows it to past testing, how is that "letting" them pass the test? The reasoning seems circular and convoluted, if not morally bankrupt, and something that I don't think even VW would dare utter in its own defense. If it did, it would truly be an act of desperation.

Governor Snyder's response is...well...pathetic. He is, after all, called a "governor". That's like the CEO of GM saying "well nobody told me. Don't blame ME!"

You wouldn't stand for it.

stevedebi

ruking1 said:

Indeed, the diesel has such range over a gasser!

But wait EV's winter woes https://www.yahoo.com/autos/worrisome-problem-electric-cars-no-one-talking-200400099.html

Interesting revelations about ethanol ! Four times dirtier then the "dirty diesel gate" and four times as deadlly per EPA's own research! ! ? http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-wp-blm-ethanol-comment-1666beb8-bf79-11e5-98c8-7fab78677d51-20160120-story.html

The part about EV losing range is true, but in point of fact the batteries also warm up as regenerative braking kicks in. So it isn't as bad as they might say. In my C-Max Plug In, my electric range goes from 25 to about 20 in the winter.

gagrice

Well....uh....if someone plants cheating software in a device that allows it to past testing, how is that "letting" them pass the test? The reasoning seems circular and convoluted, if not morally bankrupt, and something that I don't think even VW would dare utter in its own defense. If it did, it would truly be an act of desperation.


If the CA emissions test for diesel was the same as for gas engines I don't think they would have gotten away with it. The gas test measures the exhaust while taking the vehicle up to speed on the rollers. As one of the car magazines showed that test was able to measure the excess NOx. So yes CARB did not do their job very well.

Governor Snyder's response is...well...pathetic. He is, after all, called a "governor". That's like the CEO of GM saying "well nobody told me. Don't blame ME!"

I happen to believe the left would not be screaming so loud if it was a Democrat in that office. After all the same bunch said very little when Jennifer Granholm was governor and she cut the school budgets. She also appointed emergency managers to cities that were failing including Flint and Detroit. It is all political to discredit the party in office.

Notice what many are calling the worst environmental disaster since the BP oil spill is going on in CA. It was the state regulators that passed on the well. Yet not a single call for Moonbeam to resign. It is ultimately the governor's responsibility same as the water in Flint.

Mr_Shiftright

It has nothing to do with politics. A person is either competent or he isn't, a corporation tells the truth or doesn't. Moral compasses should not be spinning.