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  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 7,472
    I agree with your thoughts 100% isell.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • jipsterjipster Louisville, KentuckyPosts: 5,441
    edited June 2013
    Jipster would have been fine to deal with.

    I wouldn't have minded having him as a customer.

    Thanks. I think you would have put me on your Xmas card list. ;)

    I would have bought my 2012 Civic from Isell, if he lived in the Louisville area.

    I've always been friendly and respectful to my salesman. The majority of which have been fairly nice guys. If a deal can't be made, no hard feelings.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 22,081
    A shame that the 1st thing that salesmen say is that the buyer is fishy

    My comments were against the buyer, as well, and I'm not a salesman. The buyer did not express any reason for wanting to back out other than simply wanting to just because they were asked to come sign the same damned contract they already agreed to and signed. If the buyer left important details out of the story, it is their own damned fault. My conclusion was drawn from the information provided by the buyer, nothing more, nothing less. If it walks like a duck....

    '17 F150 Crew 2.7; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '09 LR2 HSE. 44-car history and counting!

  • verdugoverdugo Posts: 2,284
    We're def. not getting the entire story.

    Everytime I've bought a car, I got a copy of the contract. If the dealership wants him to sign a new contract, just make sure all the numbers match his copy of the original contract.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 19,600
    I just had to resign a contract on the 2013 CRV we just bought.

    My F&I guy transposed a number and Honda kicked it back over two cents!

    Not that uncommon but this was caught in four days, not a MONTH!
  • tommister2tommister2 Mechanicsville, VAPosts: 292
    My most recent two purchases (May 2012 and May 2013) have had the contracts revised but I didn't have to re-sign. One one the payment date changed - I think the first payment was actually made due a week or so later. The other had different late payment information. Instead of a payment being late after 7 days the bank changed it to 10. Neither change affected the numbers so I guess that's why they just let me know. For each of them I received a letter from the finance company in 7 - 10 days.

    In 1998 I leased a GMC Yukon. The contract had 15k miles per year but GMAC said it should have been 12k. They did want me to sign a new contract for that but I refused. Somehow the dealer and GMAC worked it out. I never got the details and I sold it before the lease was up...
    2011 Toyota Camry, 2012 Honda Pilot, 2013 Toyota Tundra, 2014 Jeep Wrangler, 2017 Honda Civic Coupe
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 25,317
    still not as bad as my Acura, where it took 2 weeks to figure out they wrote the contract on a totally different car than the one they gave me.

    sadder, I was the one that finally figured it out. They somehow still thought I just got the wrong key fob, which made no logical sense at all.

    would have been funny if they tried to sell "my" car before i went to swap it out!

    2015 Hyundai Sonata 2.4i Limited Tech (mine), 2013 Acura RDX AWD (wife's) and 2015 Jetta Sport (daughter's)

  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 64,685
    I had to re-sign a lease contract on an Accord in the '90s...

    The correct money factor was supposed to be .00236 and they used .00239... AHFC kicked it back...

    Saved me about $1/month!!

    Most stories I hear about new buyer's not wanting to re-sign contracts are purely buyer's remorse.. and, thinking that this might be a way out...
    Others just don't like car dealer's, and like to think they have the upper hand (for once)...


    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • acemanhattanacemanhattan Posts: 79
    edited September 2013
    I understand that a dealer is in business to make money and, though it would be nice, I'm not going to drive a car off their lot (likely) without them making a fair bit of money off of me. I'm okay with this. What I don't want to be is the fool who they make A LOT of money off of. That's where I hope you can help me.

    I'm looking at a 4 owner 2002 Corolla LE with 100k miles with a sticker price of $6,995. No side front airbags and no ABS, really clean but definitely not new (few scrapes, wheels are scraped). There are a few other 02's w similar specs that are priced at other dealers for right about the same amount, so, in that sense, it seems to be a fair price. However, after looking at trade in value for that car, I see that the MOST the dealer would have paid (and I'm sure they didn't pay for a "clean" trade-in) would have been $3,800. In addition, KBB, Edmunds, NADA, and Black Book all say that this vehicle should retail, in outstanding condition, for about $6,100.

    So, of course, my question is what would a fair price be for this vehicle?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 57,576
    edited September 2013
    Sounds like $5K would be more than generous. You should use the designation of "average" or perhaps "good", to price the car---certainly not excellent or outstanding.

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  • acemanhattanacemanhattan Posts: 79
    edited September 2013
    Thanks. Does it sound then, since they are asking $6,995, like this is just a situation where the dealer has no interest in selling it at a reasonable price and that I shouldn't even make an offer? If I want to get the vehicle at $5,000, then I'm looking at offering them something like $4,500, which, at the price they've advertised it, doesn't sound like a very serious offer. Or does it?
  • ohenryxohenryx Posts: 285
    What exactly do you have to lose? A few minutes of your time, I would say.

    But you do need to keep that in mind ("few minutes", I mean). One of their negotiating tactics is to tie you up for hours and wear you down. Be prepared, be serious, make your offer and move on. Either on the phone or in person.

    Another good tactic is using the bottom line, this has always been one of my favorites. "I have $5,500 available, I will write you a check right now and take the car with me." If the salesman comes back with, "I have to check with my manager", then you look at your watch and say, "I have to be somewhere. You can call me with your answer." Then leave. Do not hang around.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 57,576
    edited September 2013
    I wouldn't let them engage you. They can be clever. Make the offer that you want to pay, your top dollar. If they say "no", or "let's work something out" or "let me check" or....just thank them politely, leave your card and walk.

    A dealer may very well sell you a car on a $1500 flip if he has no money in the car.

    Go to cragislist and see what private parties are asking, then knock 5-10% off that. Be sure to only pick "comparables", so no "pristine" Corollas or cars with considerably more or less miles than yours, or higher or lower trim levels.

    I'm seein' $5500 asking for nice clean low mileage 2002 LEs here in California.

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  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 7,472
    There is absolutely nothing special about that car or the year...except for the asking price, which is way too high. Thousands of those things must be for sale across the country.

    That dealer has made the decision to wait for someone to walk in and pay the asking price. Sadly, someone probably will. I would simply move on down the road and find a better car at a better price. That dealer doesn't sound like someone I would want to do business with.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • So, are you suggesting using a price 10% below what private party sellers are asking to use in negotiation with a dealer, or are you just suggesting that I can get an idea of what I could reasonably expect to pay from looking at 10 to 15 percent below private party prices?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 57,576
    I'd say the latter. As was mentioned, these are very common cars so you don't have to jump at anything.

    To my mind, there are only 3 reasons to shop at a dealership:

    1. Convenient -- you go in, you sit down, and you drive away, all signed up, paperwork on its way to you.

    2. Financing -- dealers might offer alternative financing to people who are really hard up for a loan and need help getting one (often at high interest)

    3. Higher Degree of Liability--a dealer can't do many of the treacherous things a private party can do to you and get away with it.

    One reason private party asking prices are lower is that the private party usually wants the car gone--a dealer can sit on a car for a year if he wants to.

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  • acemanhattanacemanhattan Posts: 79
    edited September 2013

    Initially I had no desire to go through a dealership, but after looking non-stop on popular private seller sites I decided that, for reason 1., it might be worth my time to shop at dealers as well.
  • This is a duplicate post from another thread, so forgive me if that's frowned on:

    Let's say it keeps getting repeated by knowledgeable folks like the forum members at that this car is worth $5,000. In that case it would be reasonable to think that the guy who owns the dealership also knows in his/her heart of hearts that $5,000 is what this car is worth.

    My question is, what is a more reasonable assumption about how dealers purchase their vehicles: (1) They know the car is worth $5,000, they buy it at $3,500 and mark it up to $7,000 hoping for a sweetheart of a buyer but with the possibility of selling it at $5,000 to a smart buyer. (2) They know the car is worth $5,000 but, since they aren't looking to sell cars to knowledgeable buyers (and since wholesalers know how the game works), they buy it at $4,500 and mark it up to $7,000 looking for a sweetheart buyer with no intention of letting it go to a knowledgeable buyer for $5,000.
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 25,317
    there is a 4th reason. Especially depending on the particular car you want, the dealers are the ones that have the selection. Trying to find exactly what you want on the private seller market can be a real pig in a poke. And of course, then you deal with working out a way to see it, owners that have to pay off a loan, and all kinds of logistical nightmares.

    IMO, the cheaper the price range, the more sense to go private.

    2015 Hyundai Sonata 2.4i Limited Tech (mine), 2013 Acura RDX AWD (wife's) and 2015 Jetta Sport (daughter's)

  • stickguystickguy Posts: 25,317
    not sure I quite followed your options, but I think #1.

    basically, they know people usually expect to negotiate, so they pad the price to give room for the "my kids won't eat this month" discount. And of course, for the jackpot of a buyer that walks in, and just pays the tag price. Hey, you can always lower, but hard to raise the price!

    I think you are overlooking another group of buyers. payment buyers. they are usually the 2nd type I listed, but just interested in the monthly, so the dealer uses the higher asking price combined with an extended term to get the monthly nut where the buyer wants it.

    2015 Hyundai Sonata 2.4i Limited Tech (mine), 2013 Acura RDX AWD (wife's) and 2015 Jetta Sport (daughter's)

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 57,576
    In my opinion, the problem with this car being at a dealership is that they are asking dealer prices but the car is not up to's not a creampuff, and there seems to be no apparent justification for asking top dollar and beyond for it other than (dare I say?) greed?

    I rather doubt the dealer paid very much for this car, or if he did and he's buried in it, he's not a very good used car dealer then, is he? ("oh, darn, I just kept raising my hand at the auction because I was sooo excited, and then...")---

    Any good dealer knows that the buyer sets the market, not him. The dealer cannot force the market beyond what it will bear. The only way this car might be sold at that asking price is to someone who has no money, doesn't care what the car costs, but just wants to hear about an affordable monthly payment.

    Anyone else is going to bargain. No one can set an exact price on a used car, be cause all used cars are different.

    I heard about some scrapes and some curb rash, and so I took a guess.

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  • ken117ken117 Posts: 246
    Many good points.

    First, any pricing service such as True Car does not represent the best price. The best price will almost always result from research and face-to-face negotiation with a sales person. There is a cost for the convenience provided by these services.

    Buying a new car does not have to be difficult. The key is knowledge. Recognize there are three parts to most deals. Those are the price, the trade, and financing.

    Recognize dealers are smart and most are honest. They want to make a deal but they also want to make a profit. It is best to be upfront. Nothing is gained by trying to be cute. For example, nothing is gained by trying to hide the trade.

    Develop a realistic price at which a dealer may sell. Use invoice less incentives and holdback to compute a baseline price. Add a bit of profit, perhaps start with 3 to 4 percent, and negotiate up from that number. Do not move up too quickly.

    Use Edmunds, KBB, and NADA to price the value of any trade. Be realistic as to the condition of the vehicle.

    Obtain your credit score and research available financing.

    Use one of the many calculators available to arrive at a monthly payment goal.

    Research dealerships online. Edmunds' provides a lot of information to identify dealers who represent the good guys along with those dealers which are more problamatic.

    Recognize there are two parties to a deal. Both must accept the terms of the deal. If an agreement can be reached, fine. If not, maybe time to reassess the parameters of the deal. There is always another dealer. If all dealers are not close to your numbers it may be your numbers need to be adjusted.

    Say no to every product offered by the F&I sales person. They are all overpriced and most have limited value. However, allow the F&I person an opportunity to finance the vehicle. There are many benefits to this.

    Recognize the sales person is not an enemy. He or she is simply part of the process. The F&I person, on the other hand, is someone you need to approach with caution. A good deal can be destroyed very quickly in the F&I room.

    With research and an honest understanding of your position along with the dealer's goals buying a new vehicle today truly does not have to be stressful.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 7,472
    Very good post. I agree with everything you said.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • I'm considering this lease deal

    Seems be even better than what Honda direct is offiering ( Sedan- &offerid=73186&modelid=FB2F5DEW&sf=2&ft=1)

    and I'm not sure how that's even possible. I thought it would always be cheaper to buy from
    car manufacturer as middlemen just jack up the price.

    My second q is if it's worth to wait till 2014 version and maybe then i can get 2013 civic
    for less money?
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 64,685
    The lease broker deal doesn't include the $595 acq.fee.. you have to pay that upfront, where it's included in the Honda advertised deal (see the fine print).

    So... the Honda deal is about $215/mo. + tax.. (with no downpayment)

    The broker deal is about $215/mo. including tax (adding the acq.fee)

    A couple of things to ponder...

    1) The lease broker deal is the same Honda Finance lease as the advertised deal... the damage waiver is the tipoff.. that is a Honda Finance thing.. they are just using a dealer that is cutting them a better price than the price assumed in the advertised deal... (good enough to give you a lower price and still make a few hundred for themselves)

    2) You can try to negotiate the same deal as the lease broker, yourself.. at the dealer. You may be successful, as you won't have to factor in the broker's profit. (and, you eliminate a 3rd party from your deal)



    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • kyfdx,

    thanks so much for this.

    So as things stand now I'm better going with leasedirectny offer rather than going directly to honda dealer?
  • and also should I wait for 2014 civic. I really dont care which year my car is but I figured that once 2014 comes out I might get a better deal on 2013?

    Should I expect 2013 prices to come down?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 57,576
    The longer you wait to buy a 2013, the fewer cars and fewer options you'll have to choose from.

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  • MichaellMichaell ColoradoPosts: 58,739
    Precisely. The supply and demand curves initially favor the consumer, but as the inventory drops and more people look for 'deals' on the 2013 models, dealers know they can hold the line on pricing.

    Also, folks often don't get the color combination they want.


    2016 VW Jetta 1.4T SE / 2015 Subaru Outback 3.6R / 2014 MINI Countryman S ALL4

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  • When you lease the car at the dealer, he is selling the car to Honda Finance which is leasing it to you. Dealer's love when you go for the nationally advertised deal because the car is sold at a nice profit. You can negotiate a better deal with the dealer 99.9% of the time.
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