Dealer's Tricks - bait & switch, etc.

Spyponder

At least now I understand ptmccain's persistence on this issue: For the good Reverend, this isn't just a pet peeve, it's a holy crusade!

ptmccain

Found a good newspaper articles on dealer ad/tricks:

http://www.newstimes.com/archive2000/aug18/aug.htm

mmcbride1

I think the Rev is used to preaching to people who aren't listening (and hammering his point home many, many times). It all makes sense now.

wilcox

He's preaching something that is more tangible.

CarMan@Edmunds

Hi everyone. I would appreciate it if you try to stick to the topic, rather than posting your opinions of other users. Remember that it is a violation of the Edmunds.com Town Hall Participant's Agreement to flame others. I have hidden some of the most recent off-topic posts. Please feel free to continue posting in this thread if you have something to say about some of the deceptive practices that certain dealerships employ. If you would like to post about another subject please feel free to use the search function to find a relevant area to place your post or to start a new topic. Thank you.

Car_man
Co-Host Smart Shoppers - FWI

ptmccain

This is a www site that features comments about dealership's deceptive practices from customers. I found it very interesting.

http://www.bitchaboutit.com/ReadPages/auto-dealer_complaints.htm

wilcox

was that almost all makes that were mentioned were from non-domestic manufacturers.

Simply put, more people are experiencing problems with "Foreign" (non-domestic)dealerships and manufacturers.

Can I post this site in the Foreign vs Domestic Topic over in News Conference without getting scribbled or hidden?

glenn384

I will gladly make this offer, for the good of the board.

I will give up privledge of posting on edmunds town hall for my remarks about PTMCCAIN, if you will also revoke his privledges for logging in and posting under another identity.

This would free the board to go back to discussing Smart Shopper issues without being spammed.

Thank you,

glenn

ptmccain

Here is a site that provides helpful information about dealer tricks, free for the downloading:

http://www.carbuyingbooks4uall.com/cbatoc.html

millerro3

I don't think that you found this one yet:

http://www.auto-linker.com/autobuying.html

Cheers!

jratner

Between skipping the 20 or so hidden responses, and all of ptmccain's responses, I covered 40 or so posts in just over 1 minute.
How about some dealer tricks? Inconsiderate buyers is a lot more interesting.
When I get up enough nerve I will tell all of you how I was an inconsiderate buyer, and still regret it.

ptmccain

Another great article . . . .

http://aca.ninemsn.com/stories/421.asp

jratner

another fast read
NEXT!

wilcox

If you are considering a sales career in automotive, then read back over all the site links that have been posted here. They can help you. These sites offer a wealth of information that you can use...and you don't have to lift hardly a finger to become educated. LOL

audia8q

you bring up an interesting point concerning imports vs domestics and the overall experience..

One interesting rating is the dealer sales satisfaction ratings....the Asian brands as a whole have been at or near the bottom of the list for the last 20 years or so...
There are a number of reasons for this..
The Toyota, honda, nissan etc product lines have always sold with quality and reliability. It took a whale of a salesperson to sell a Chrysler K car, anyone with a pulse can sell a Sienna...so there was no need to pay for the high quality salesperson, the cars seld themselves. Due to large number of domestic stores, they don't do the single store volume of some import dealers thus forcing the salesperson working at the domestic to develop a following with repeats referrals. The Toyota store selling 800 new cars a month and being the main player in a market dosnt need to worry about repeat buyers...
Import buyers are also less loyal which is bad for salespeople. The ownership loyalty info for all brands have been very heavily towards domestics. Nobody is as loyal as a Ford buyer. They return to a Ford product 70% of the time and same dealer almost as much. Import buyers often stay in segment but switch brands and dealerships. Camry for Accord, pathfinder for 4 runner etc...Some of these reasons may explain why the imports have not done as well as the domestics when it comes to dealer sales satisfaction....

Rich

ccotenj

i was a ford guy for YEARS... 3 mustangs, 1 escort gt, and the f-150 i have now... bought 2 of the stangs, the escort and the truck from the same salesman... was going to buy another mustang from him, but finally got tired of having to deal with a car that although i got great performance for the initial buck, ended up draining my wallet on a monthly basis once it was more than 2 years old...

-Chris

wilcox

I guess that I could make an inference that import buyers are less patriotic. They probably vote less and everything.

Overall, Interesting observations you have made...

ccotenj

??? i didn't catch that in his post...

personally, imo, if you measure your patriotism by what you buy, i think that's the wrong measuring stick, but i could be wrong, it wouldn't be the first (or last) time...

-Chris

wilcox

It would be wonderful to take a sampling of that. I have 2 domestics and did not vote. The wife drives a toyota and she voted...hmmm

Now how many other import owners voted? I bet she was the only one.

dhoff

..and I voted.


Dave

ccotenj

so that makes 2...

but then again, dead people have voted for years in chicago, and i'm not sure how patriotic they are...

-Chris

isellhondas

But, I might have punched the card wrong...:)

audia8q

my information comes from studies done withing the industry and have been widely published in trade publications...they are nothing new..

I don't get your point about not being patriotic and not voting....sounds like you asked the question, then didnt like the results. maybe if you go to court you can change the outcome...hahaha. just kidding, I couldnt pass on that one.

Rich

ptmccain

Interesting article on the generally poor fate of women at car dealerships.

http://www.women.nsw.gov.au/mvip/mvipdiscussion.html

ccotenj

possibly your starbucks started to spill, so it's understandable that your attention was on something else...

good one rich.

-Chris

ptmccain

Controlling the conversation: Common Dealer Trick

Salesmen often try to "control the conversation" when making a deal with you for your new car. They have many ways to try to do this but the most popular is asking too many questions and answering all of your questions with questions. They will need to ask several questions in order to determine what you're looking for but once you get past those questions, the rest are designed to keep them in the drivers seat and to not give you a chance to stop and think about what's going on. It's hard to think about what's going on when someone is throwing a million questions at you.

AVOID IT:
Don't be afraid to ask them for a minute to think or to step outside. You are the one in control, not them. Make sure they understand that. If a salesman is answering all of your questions with questions, ask him repeatedly. Don't answer his question with out having yours answered first. Let him know that you would like your question answered by telling him, "You didn't answer my question" or "You shouldn't answer a question with a question." They don't like to feel as if the control is being taken away but stay calm and firm and turn the conversation into yours. You may have to try a couple of times if they seem unwilling to give up that "control" but sooner or later they will have to concede. If they are stubborn and refuse, ask for a different salesperson or the sales manager. If they will not get one of these people or tell you that everyone else is busy with other customers, leave or go out in the lot and find a different salesperson. If they refuse to make the deal on your terms, there are 10 other salesman walking around the dealership waiting for a potential customer. Go out and grab one.

audia8q

we were givin 2 ears and 1 mouth for a reason..it means listen twice as much as we speak. All quality salespeople know this...perhaps you should consider the concept.

the problem with your post is it will only work on green-peas and they usually don't know how to control anything...another one of your waste of time ideas. No problem with the helpful ones but this one is absurd.

Rich

ptmccain

With this scam the salesperson will tell you that they are new on the job, just out of training, in a probation period, and they need to make a few good sales to keep their job as a sales person. To further this trick they will give you business cards with their name hand printed on them because they "need to make those sales before I can get my own personalized business cards." By doing all of this, the salesperson hopes to make you feel as though they are going through this with you as a learning experience and that they are just as new to this as you are. In fact they may even try to make you the teacher so that you feel more in control.

AVOID IT:
There are two ways to avoid this scam. The first of which is identifying it. Tell the salesman that if he is such a rookie, you really need to see someone who knows about everything you will need. To keep you as his customer, this will force him to start acting as though he know what he is doing. The second is to play along with it and be in charge of the situation. Ask for everything you want and when he says that he doesn't think his sales manager will go for any of that, tell him you need to see his sales manager because his lack of training and experience is not helping you buy your car. Either one of these solutions will make the salesman feel as though his trick isn't working and he'll either shape up or you can deal directly with the sales manager.

isellhondas

Is it necessary to tell and retell and retell the same story?

He should read the many links he keeps posting...maybe he will find some new material!

ptmccain

This is one of the most ridiculous scams out there and I can't believe anyone would buy a car from a dealership that did this. When you go into the dealership, the salesman will ask to see your trade-in vehicle and will ask to let one of his mechanics look over the vehicle to see what they can offer you for the car. He will take your keys and a mechanic will come out and drive off in your car. If you choose not to buy a car or you were just looking in the first place, the salesman will have a hard time trying to locate your car. He will send a fellow salesman to "look for your car, its keys, and the mechanic who's looking it over." Meanwhile this gives him more time to try to talk you into a new car which is the whole point of this trick.

AVOID IT:
Avoid this scam by calling them on it and by bringing your vehicles extra set of keys. This way when they start to play this game, you can find your car on the lot and get in it and leave. Tell the salesperson that this is unacceptable and that they need to mail you your missing set of keys because you will not be coming back to this dealership ever.

ptmccain

How many times have you heard a salesman ask, "What do I have to do to get you into this car today?" This is their famous question. All salesmen ask it and for one simple reason, you feel obliged to answer which gives them more leverage to work with. When you answer this question, suddenly they have something else to bargain with. If you tell them it's the payments, they'll tell you they can work on those for you. If you tell them it's the color, they'll tell you they can find your color.

AVOID IT:
You can avoid the famous question by either telling them that there is nothing that could get you into this car today (unless of course it was free) or simply tell them that the price is just to high. This answer gives you some leverage because now they will try to work with you on the most important aspect, the price of your new car.

ptmccain

A salesman will act as if he has cut every corner for you he could possibly cut and will give you the "this is it" phrase otherwise known as "take it or leave it." When a salesman does this it is to scare you into thinking this is the best you are going to get anywhere so you better buy it now.

AVOID IT:
When a salesman says this, your best option is to say "leave it" and leave. As you are leaving the salesman will either try to stop you and give you a better deal or let you go if that is in fact his best offer. If this was in fact his best offer, it will still be there if you shop around and then go back.

ptmccain

This trick is played as there is a good salesman and a bad salesman. Your salesman will act as the good salesman who is supposed to be on your side. He will try to act as though he is willing to help you with anything you need to get into your new car. The part of the bad salesman will be played by another salesman or a sales manager. The good salesman will try to take all of your offers while the bad salesman will shoot down all of them. This is played in order to wear down the customer until they are willing to agree to other terms just to get out of there.

AVOID IT:
When going through all negotiations, do it one issue at a time. This in turn will wear them down and they will be less likely to shoot down every offer you make.

ptmccain

When you go to a dealership they will have extra prices on each car that are "written in stone". These prices are normally ridiculous charges that are just there for dealer profit. These are normally in the form of delivery and handling, prep fees, fabric coating, or rustproofing. Sometimes they will noted only with cryptic letters like DEP (dealer extra profit!). These prices are normally added to a contract without your approval and can be quite costly.

AVOID IT:
These costs can often be negotiated and deleted from your contract. Don't assume that just because they are written, they can't be removed. Just make sure you get your contract, in writing, signed by an officer of the dealership, with the price totalled out and sans all the "extra charges."

ptmccain

Ever notice how one of the first questions out of the mouth of a car salesmen is, "Do you have a trade in?" Dealerships make a lot of money on used cars. By clouding the two transactions (selling you a car and buying a car from you) you will never know for sure what you are actually paying for your new car and what you are actually getting for your used car.

Avoid it:
Always answer the "Do you have a trade-in?" question by saying, "I am only interesting in buying a car now, not selling one. Let's talk about the car I want to buy." Then refuse to discuss the trade in. If in fact you do want to consider the dealership's offer for your trade in, get the price on the new car, in writing, then ask for a quote on your used car.

ptmccain

Here's a "close encounter" of the nasty kind with dealer tricks.

I've uncovered a series of unscrupulous practices at not one, but two Lincoln-Mercury dealerships in my area. As astounding as it may seem, they both used a ruse that I found incredibly upsetting.

It goes like this....A few weeks ago, I decided to get a new '97 Sable. I have a '93 Sable LS wagon which has been OK. Now, understand, this is not my dream car by any stretch of the imagination. I would love to be able to get the new Volvo 850 Turbo or the Audi A6 Quattro--hell, even a new '98 Passat. But I'm a teacher, and the sole support of my dear artist husband, my 83-year-old mother, and my challenging but wonderful 14-year-old daughter. So, we really need another car. We will keep the '93 Sable with almost 72,000 miles on it for my husband, and I thought I'd settle for a GS with the touring package so that I'll feel as if I'm in an LS. Anyway, I digress....

Soooo, I went into one dealership where I was told by a salesman that I could have the GS with the touring package, a remote keyless entry/passive alarm and the 451A package with antilock brakes for $20,000 at 1.9 percent interest for 48 months. But, when I called him 15 minutes later, he said he didn't have one with the ABS in a color I liked. He couldn't promise me that he could find one for me. So, I drove out to Huntington (20 miles), where the salesperson (Dawn) had told me on the phone she had two other colors. I went out and Dawn asked me what the deal was that she was trying to match or beat, so I told her what I had been told. She left, returned with Jayson, the sales manager. "NO WAY," he said. "BUY THE CAR IF YOU CAN, HE'S LOW-BALLING YOU!" "Well, OK," said I meekly. "WAIT, I CAN GIVE IT TO YOU FOR $21,200 AT ZERO PERCENT FOR 48 MONTHS!" I challenged him, saying that I didn't believe Ford was offering zero percent financing. "WE HAVE A SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP WITH FORD," he promised. "WE CAN DO IT!" "Let me think about it." "PROMISE ME ONE THING," Jayson called out. "DON'T BE EMBARRASSED TO COME BACK IF I'M RIGHT ABOUT THE $20,000 BEING A LOW-BALL." I assured Jayson that I would not be embarrassed to buy a car from him, as I was not planning on making our relationship a lifelong one, merely a transaction of business.

When I called Dawn back when I got home, she joyfully took the order over the phone, telling me I wouldn't have to come in until the following week. She took a $250 deposit, and we reviewed all the details of the deal. I was to come in the following week to sign the final papers. I had to contact my insurance company immediately with the VIN, get them to fax over info to the dealership, and pick up my insurance cards before going in the following week. I did all this, changed my insurance rates, everything.

When I called the morning of the day we were to go, I was told Dawn's mother had suffered a stroke, and that she would not be in, but just to go see Scott. When I finished work, I picked up my husband and drove out in rush-hour traffic. It took more than an hour!

Scott greeted us. We sat down and he said, "So, it's all done! $21,200 for 48 months at zero percent." "No, it was at zero percent" I corrected him. "We can't do that!" he said. I demanded to see Jayson, the manager, and his response was, "Oh, I made a mistake. We can't do it." I guess they thought I would be so excited to get this mediocre car that I would fall for it. I demanded they keep their word. Then I saw that Dawn must have been in on it, because she had written on the contract "subject to approval," which neither she nor Jayson had ever said to us. (When I called them the next day, Jayson said he could get me three years but not four.) We got our $250 back and contacted Ford Customer Service, who said, "That is terrrible. There's nothing we can do."

Now, here's the amazing part....One week later, after straightening out everything with my insurance company, I went to another dealership on the south shore of Long Island in West Babylon. There, the salesman, Noah, asked me what deal I wanted on the white GS he had. Although white wasn't my first color choice, it was so easy, and Noah was so pleasant, that we finally agreed on $21,000 at 1.9 percent for 48 months. I gave him the $250, contacted my insurance company, rushed there to get the cards with the new car on the policy, and agreed to meet with the "delivery coordinator," Bob, Tuesday evening. After a long day at work, and another hour-long drive out there, we were greeted by a smiling Noah who mentioned casually, "By the way, I made a mistake, we can't give you 1.9 percent for 48 months. We can do 36 months, and then it jumps to a higher rate."

I tell you, gentlemen, that I went absolutely crazy. You see, he had waited until I got there to give me this unfortunate news. He said he had tried reaching me at work, but he hadn't, as I had not been away from my desk all day. (Worse yet, I had chosen not to attend the wake of the mother of two children in our school because we had to get to the dealer before it closed. While this may seem maudlin, it was truly upsetting.)

When he saw how angry I was, he said he would see what he could do but he couldn't promise anything. It was when I said that I had just been through this at another Ford dealer and that I was contacting the attorney general's office that he seemed to realize how upset I was. But by that time I realized I couldn't do business with these people. This was like a warning to me. So, I told him I was leaving, and to send me my money back immediately. He rushed out from the manager's desk as I started to leave the lot. "Come on, OK, we'll eat it, come on!" he whined. "Send me my money!" I cried as I left. When I reported to Ford that it had happened again, they were very sympathetic, but they "have no control over the dealerships." When I asked who will follow up on this and when I would get my money back, they said, "Someone will read this. We're so sorry."

ral2167

don't be buying any lincoln mercury sable-- get a camry...i imagine you can get a 4 cylinder decently loaded camry LE for $21,000--- maybe even a 6 cylinder with some nice options for that amount... i'd suggest an accord also, but i think you need the room and camry's are slightly larger, i think. you seem more interested in getting a 0% or 1.9% loan than getting a car. i'd rather be paying a 7% loan on a honda or toyota than 0% on a taurus. you're buying a car, not money, remember. buying a car isn't difficult, but all your posts make it seem like calculus. am i nuts?

ccotenj

nope. you ain't nuts.

1) go to dealer
2) pick out car you like
3) drive it
4) ask price
5) if like price, go to 9, if not, continue
6) offer lower
7) wait for response
8) if no response, go home or offer higher and go to 7, if good response, continue
9) write check
10) drive car home, and don't worry that joe schmoe paid 20 dollars less than you, or that the dealer might have made an extra 100 bucks on you...

easy.

-Chris

bobst

You thought you and the salesperson had made a firm deal, but then you found that they wanted to change the deal at the last minute. Well, what else is new? You should have been well prepared for the dealer to pull a trick like that, and it should not have upset you at all. That is how things are in the real world of car buying, and you had better get used to it.

I think there are a lot of salespeople like Isell who would not do anything to decieve a customer, but it is better if you prepare yourself for the ones who are not so honest.

isellhondas

I always gave you, and still give you a lot of credit for being smart.

Can't you tell that he copied that story of woe from some website or book somewhere.

No doubt that that happened to someone, somewhere.

I'm surprised that you can't see through him by now!

bobst

Your fourth step was to ask the dealer how much the car costs. From my experience, most dealers will not give you a straightforward answer. It is a lot easier if you just give them the price you are willing to pay, and then leave if they do not accept it.

One time in 1985 I went to dealer and asked the salesman how much a car costs, he gave me a price, and I accepted. I'm sure I did not get a good deal, but we enjoyed driving the car for 12 years, so I guess it worked out well in the end. These days I do things differently.

bobst

Yeah, I guess you are right. The story may have been copied from some other source, but who knows, maybe the person who actually went through the experience will read my insightful post and benefit from it.

We gotta save the world one soul at a time, right?

Bob

gcintender

PT, if you're going to copy a story, you should use one a bit more recent - a "new" '97 Sable? a Volvo 850 Turbo? a "new" '98 Passat?

glenn384

Anyone who posts under a different login, would not think its wrong to post someone elses story.

pat455

I think this recent proliferation of posts has come from some other site, perhaps the ubiquitous carbuyingtips.com.

Let me just remind everyone that it takes two to make an argument.

Ignoring the provocative posts is the surest way to silence the provocateur.

Everyone here knows that, I am certain.

Pat
Community Leader/Maintenance & Repair Conference

glenn384

gotcha

im_brentwood

Outstanding point on the personal attacks being against Tow Hall Policy.

Very valid point!

Many things are against town hall policy: Cursing/Foul Language, Personal Attacks, Posting copywrighted materiel as your own or without quoting or giving credit to the source.

You know, that sorta thing

Bill

dsattler

...that ptmccain's profile says his name is Paul, but his story talked about "my husband." If I was copying someone else's written material, and possibly running afoul of copyright laws, I'd at least change the gender to match mine!

wilcox

Keep up the good work...

CarMan@Edmunds

Ptmccain, it is a violation of the Edmunds.com Town Hall Participant's Agreement to post copywrited material from other publications or Web sites in this forum and claim that it is your own. Please cease stealing others material and posting it on this site immediately. This is your second major violation of Edmunds.com Town Hall policy (your first was creating two different user i.d.'s and having a conversation with yourself). Future violations of the Participant's Agreement may lead to the termination of your account. I respect your contributions to this forum and hope that you continue to contribute within the parameters of the rules that you agreed to when you signed up for this forum. Thank you.

Car_Man
Smart Shoppers / FWI Co-Host