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High End Luxury Cars



  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    You've got to be kidding me. Get real.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    I'll give the author BMW, Porsche, and Mercedes. Audi and Range Rover, maybe. But Volvo?? Are you kidding me? Who in their right mind thinks Volvo is a "premium" brand, above Jaguar and Rolls Royce!?

    Exactly . . . no one in their right mind would think that. I agree with you.

    They go on to imply that Volvo is above Aston Martin and Maserati as well. Aston Martin and Maserati have heritage in spades, both as manufacturers and from their racing programs. How many Le Mans wins does Volvo have?

    I agree once again. There is a serious difference in the heritage of those vehicles, and I'm glad to see you recognize heritage as a relevant attribute . . . as we are all aware of which HELM has NONE.

  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    That sentence discreditted the whole article but his incredible partisan standing was clear anyway. Reading that article was like being at Yankee Stadium in a series with the Red Sox - you know who the crowd is rooting for. The writer thinks we are still in the 1980's and is completely lost.
  • anthonypanthonyp Posts: 1,860
    Well it is nice to see that you have represented Audi to the extent that others now also mention it, even when they have no first hand experience...As a fact, at this time in my ownership experience with Lexus Mercedes BMW and Audi I have had no problem with the Audi whereas I had at least one important problem with each of the other brands...Further all of the mentioned cars are a bit different in different ways but all in all very nice and certainly on the top line of anyone`s list --possibly exceping a few posters on this forum... Please keep up the good representation ..Tony
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    Well apparently in Europe, "heritage, heritage, heritage" means everything, which explains why the great German HELMS-MB, BMW and Audi are absolutely crushing Lexus across the pond.

    I don't hate Lexus. I look forward to driving a new LS in the Fall to see if its handling has improved a bit.

    It will be quite tough for Lexus to break in over there, however, because of the great, proud tradition of fantastic performance-oriented vehicles that Europeans have grown accustomed to expect.

    Steve-come on now-wouldn't you really rather have a Buick?
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Tagman, that post of yours was in-your-face candid. Me thinks we are on the verge of the 110th MB vs Lexus Super Bowl. I don’t recall you ever being the starting QB in one of these.

    No . . . I'm not the man for the job. Because I don't hate Lexus the way it might appear sometimes. It's well known that I have a huge respect for them, particularly the upcoming LS.

    But, admittedly, I can't stand it when I see Lexus fans taking undeserved heaping helpings of credit and denying Mercedes it's rightful kudos.

    That's really all it is.


  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    That sentence discreditted the whole article

    No it didn't. That's too extreme. There were many interesting and valid perspectives. Disagree with one, and you don't have to discredit the entire thing.

  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    When Lexus gets serious about Europe we'll see how well that heritage argument holds up. Till now Europe as been double AA ball but that will change. Ten years from now it will be a different story and Lexus will have hurt someone there. You can bet your life on that.
  • dhamiltondhamilton Posts: 875
    could you expound on that please
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    Your superiority comments - give me a break - OK.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Apparently, heritage has been banned. Next is status, and then prestige. Soon the ONLY factor to determine a HELM will be reliability.

    Oh well, I guess the Corolla will be a HELM soon.


  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    Tag, I've got one sentence:

    Audi, if you build it, they will come!!

    This iteration of another CLS-esque car is better designed, at least in the pics, than some of the others. Mainly headroom will be better than even the CLS. And this car gets Audi's new 4.2L 450hp, direct injected, DSG-equipped V8. I saw a "unofficial" pic of the "sport" model of the car last month. All I can say is Audi must've been cross-shopping at AMG as the front and rear aprons look very MB to me, which is no bad thing. Looks like they also chopped off it's nose for a more smoother finish. I'll keep you posted on new pics, like the spy photo of the upcoming Q5 and '09 A8L..
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Posts: 359
    Aston has one victory in 1959 at Le Mans. Thats all!

    Most of aston legend is just baseless propaganda and fraud, just like most other british brands.

    Choicest words are used. "Storied marque", "world's best", "world beating", timeless elegance, refined, rare, elegant, unparalleled, glorious, legendary, unequaled, fabled and other non-sense. Fraudulent propaganda by sleazy british press and their cronies on East Coast this side of pond.

    Just like a medieval fisherman cries "Best fish" while selling a rotten one.

    If you think I am missing something you should point it out CLEARLY otherwise this "spades" thing is just an irresponsible ornament.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    I certainly hope you are correct because we consumers will eventually benefit when one of the manufacturers turns the heat up a bit.
    it will keep the competition honest and we get better vehicles.

    Looking forward to seeing how Toyota and Honda react to the heat currently being provided by Hyundai.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Tag, I've got one sentence:

    Audi, if you build it, they will come!!

    It (the A7) is surely gorgeous, and there were other pics on that site. I imagine you've seen them all by now. Personally, I like it much better than the CLS.

    My wish to Audi . . . send a gorgeous sports car to our market.

  • dhamiltondhamilton Posts: 875
    I'm not trying to sound superior. My point is to point out the fundamental difference in mind set/priorities between the German/Japanese customer. I think Hpowers said it best when he pointed it out that Cyclone4 didn't even mention performance.
    If it helps, I do think that Lexus is more sophisticated a car than Buick but, FWIW I never mentioned Buick, That was the good Mr.Tagman. Again FWIW for me reliablility would comes as a lower priority than performance. Something that Lexus does well. I can live with some glitches to have a car drive a certain way that I feel appropriate. We can agree to disagree I suppose, didn't mean to push any buttons.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    I have posted in the past that I believe the upcoming LS600hL will set a new standard.

    I generally have a history of being fairly objective in my views of Mercedes and Lexus, and the other marques as well.

    But as I've said, it is not reasonable to have Lexus fans take massive amounts of credit for even the smallest things, and totally deny Mercedes the credit it deserves, and to further insult the Mercedes marque by trying to deny its heritage and history, and to ignore the value of its status and prestige, as though they no longer have any merit. They all do.

    There are MANY factors, not just the ones that Lexus is good at. The ones that Lexus is NOT historically good at matter too. So, it is ridiculaous to suddenly ban heritage or prestige, to infer that style is not that big a deal, or to dilute the standards for performance as though going quickly in a straight line is adequate. (THAT was why I used the Buick analogy, hope I didn't insult anyone).

    It seems reasonable that reliability is not EVERYTHING. Those other factors and performance do matter, IMO.

    I think you know what I am saying, here.

  • pg48477pg48477 Posts: 309
    Hi, I’m new to this thread, but after reading few post I have an idea of where you are in the subject and would like to share my thoughts.

    Lets go trough the list one more time.

    Interior ergonomics – MB is a clear winner. Some might not like it at the first glance but after spending time in the car, you will understand how much better it is then anything from Japan.

    In terms of technology - MB is an innovator, unfortunately it does reflected on reliability, but Like Tagman stated MB clear winner. Lexus simply uses proven technology and it work in their favor in terms of reliability, but not in terms of Technological enhancements. New LS might change that, but again hybrid technology was tasted on other Toyota models and not an innovation at this point. Even Acura, without having presence in the HELM sector, was by far more involved in breakthrough technology. Not having any new technology to break, does not make Lexus a winner.

    Safety – MB would win this category as well but both cars are safe enough for a tie.

    Performance- clearly go to MB.

    Prestige – MB.

    Styling – subjective, but I think most will agree that MB is a winner.

    Price – Lexus. However if you look at the value, depending on your preferences, S class can be the best value on the market. In one of the reviews I think in R&T it won heads up campro with Rolls-Royce Phantom. No one in the right state of mind will compare LS to Phantom, don’t you think? After all, $150K 911 Turbo considered, by many, the best value on the market. I bet you thought it was Hyundai SonataJ

    S class is not only the better car by a mile, it also a better value and it’s 30K more expensive.

    Oak, I know you will probably disagree. However if you do, can you provide some explanation for your logic. Tagman clearly stated as why MB superior to Lexus, you on the other hand did not.

    One more thought, I might be out of line here, but I think that new LS looks similar to previous S class, which is a good thing.
  • rayngrayng Posts: 70
    Reliability is paramount to quality. Mercedes had reliability. Now I'm not so sure. I just picked up my friend from MB Downtown for warranty work on a rather bad oil leak at 5000 miles on an 06 s350.

    Mercedes nevertheless builds fine cars because it still does well in many other helm criteria besides reliability.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    Yes, the porportions of the car, particularly the rear end looks less frumpy in comparison to the CLS. The wide-body/toupe roof of the CLS has it's ups and downs, mainly being limited passenger space. Feels like you're in a pre '04 XJ with the low roof and all.

    And did you say sports car from Audi? Then the magic genie has just granted your wish: R8 and new TT(coupe, Cab, and hopefully the Shooting Brake).

    With the R8, you'll be able to get anything from a 3.6L V-6/DSG to a 5.0L V10/stick or DSG and a 6.5L V-12/stick or DSG(thank Heavens they opted against the cruel Lambo E-gear) with over 600hp, probably a smidge less than the Murcielago, for obvious reasons. That V-12 will also make it's way into the next gen A8's by virtue of smaller displacement(6.2L), but still with over 600-hp and with the engine sitting completely behind the front axle line, for improved handling and by virtue of the more complex but more compact 9-Speed autobox and DSG's.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    We've got a world-class, 5-on-5, HELM Finals, right here!

    And here are your starting lineups:

    Air Europe:


    Vs. Team Lexus

    Cyclone (6th Man award-winner!)

  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    1. I like Audi. They make some very appealing, premium automobiles. But they are not on Lexus' level in the US. Not even really close.

    1a. I don't remember saying Audi isn't a HELM. I DO remember saying they are not a 1st-tier HELM. Big difference.

    2. Mercedes is the standard in HELM automobiles, and I have the utmost respect for their heritage, and current lineup. I do believe they are Lexus' only legitimate competition, since they both make luxury-first cars/trucks, and is incredibly formidable. I see Ali-Frazier.

    But Mercedes has learned to respect Toyota/Lexus' power over the past 17 years. And I believe they consider Lexus a 1st-tier HELM in the US, and one to watch elsewhere, as it is fairly obvious Lexus has not applied itself in Europe/Japan with the ferver they have here. Taking over America is no small task, and Lexus can take one continent at a time, as far as I'm concerned.

    3. Making pretty cars with high prices is fine, but if you can't sell them, like Lexus, Mercedes, BMW can, what have you got? Heritage is great. I'd rather have sales, cash, happy customers, and respect. Anything else will come only in time.

    4. The 1st-tier HELMs in the US are Mercedes, BMW, Porsche, and Lexus.

  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    That's the spirit, doc. We’ll stoke up the barbecue, put a keg on ice and swing for the fences!

    Hey, Mets are unconscious!

    Hpowders… Tiger is 7 off the pace… he doesn’t do well in Westchester. There was a story today in our local paper about his 155-foot yacht which is parked in Mamaroneck harbor. So much for those friggin’ Buick ads. There was also a cute story about the family who owns a house that is very close to the 15th green. They have three rescued dogs (Spaniels) who bark at the golfers and that Tiger was playing with them during practice rounds. I’m wondering if they will cause a commotion during the tournament.

  • reality2reality2 Posts: 303
    I believe this picture is a photoshoped A6. Renditions of the the upcoming A7 appear in Automobile magazine and CAR magazine from recent issues. The rendition is quite different and extremely striking and I believe it hints more towards the real design.

    Try this site for the same pictures that appear in Automobile and CAR.

    "Audi Nothing to Prove'
  • reality2reality2 Posts: 303
    That is assuming Audi, BMW and MB stand still and that isn't going to happen here or globally. Read the very interesting article below: Sorry for the pasting as it was difficult to copy.

    Source: Detriot News.

    German upmarket hegemony, built on speed,
    innovation said unassailable In Europe
    But Lexus, other upstarts with quality, style, price might be dangerous combination
    by Neil Winton

    In a country like the U.S. where
    the speed limit is rarely as high as 80
    mph, would you buy a Porsche Cayenne
    SUV rather than a Range Rover
    because the Porsche was the fastest
    SUV in the world?
    If a BMW Formula 1 car was
    victorious in the U.S. Grand Prix on a
    Sunday, would you buy a BMW 540
    on Monday rather than a Lexus GS
    Would you decide against buying
    a Rolls Royce Phantom because it
    could "only" do 145 mph, and might
    be overtaken on a German motorway
    by a Mercedes Maybach?
    If your answer's to the above
    questions are "no", you might have
    some difficulty suppressing your derision
    if you read a new book called
    "Premium Power, The Secret Of Success
    Of Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Porsche
    And Audi", by Phillip Rosengarten
    and Christopher Stuermer, published
    by Palgrave MacMillan.
    Messrs Rosengarten and Stuermer
    are both auto analysts from the
    Global Insight automotive forecasting
    company, based in Germany, and
    "Premium Power" sets out to show
    why German upmarket car manufacturers
    have been so hugely successful
    around the world, and particularly in
    North America.
    Rosengarten, in an interview,
    outlined the basic premise of the
    book, which contends that German
    upmarket manufacturers, instead of
    copying Japanese concepts of lean
    production leading to faultless cars at
    competitive prices, developed
    "premium" brands which were differentiated
    by innovation, often led by
    success on the race track.
    The "premium" brands of BMW,
    Porsche, Audi and Mercedes-Benz,
    and for the time being Range Rover
    and Volvo, are superior
    to mere luxury
    cars like Lexus, Infiniti,
    Cadillac, Jaguar,
    and Rolls Royce, because
    they continuously
    set new high
    standards. The luxury
    brands merely follow
    and imitate.
    "This helps to
    explain why successful
    brands in America like
    Lexus are not so successful
    in Europe,
    where customers demand
    heritage above
    all," Rosengarten said.
    German and
    Lexus upmarket success
    in America is undeniable, not to mention
    the dismal record of Lexus, so
    far, in Europe.
    According to Rosengarten,
    brands like Range Rover, which is
    owned by Ford and is part of its Premier
    Automotive Group (PAG), are
    in danger of losing premium status
    and becoming merely luxury if they
    let innovation slip.
    "Range Rover, now belonging to
    a volume group like Ford, would be
    in trouble if Ford failed to understand
    how important innovation is and
    might starve it of the necessary investment.
    Its air suspension was a
    benchmark and others have caught
    up. Now Range Rover has its All Terrain
    Response, which is something
    nobody else has."
    All Terrain Response harnesses
    computer power to control offroading
    with settings for conditions
    like mud, snow, rocks and sand, and
    almost automates the driving skills
    Rosengarten says that innovation
    is demonstrated by motor sport victories,
    with Porsche showing by various
    sports car race wins that it stands for
    speed. Audi rally victories showed
    how its Quattro four-wheel drive system
    beat front wheel or rear wheel
    drive. Both Mercedes and BMW have
    long competed in Formula 1 Grand
    Prix. Advertising and sponsorship
    link premium car makers with upmarket
    activities including concerts,
    sports like golf, sailing and skiing,
    and also communicate the brand's

    Innovation crucial:

    "A premium brand can only be
    successful in the long run if the brand
    is continuously setting standards in
    one of the dimensions which are important
    to its premium customers," he
    "But premium innovation doesn't
    mean necessarily high tech or
    electronic ideas, a simple solution
    with customer focus will do. For instance
    there is a new option on the
    Lamborghini Gallardo which lifts the
    the front suspension a couple of inches to
    avoid damaging the car as it rides
    over sleeping policeman (bumps in
    the road designed to slow urban traffic)."
    According to the book, Lamborghini,
    Bentley, Bugatti, and Ferrari
    are also "premium". Mere "luxury"
    brands in the U.S. include Acura,
    Cadillac, Hummer, Infiniti, Lexus,
    Lincoln and Maybach, while secondrate
    status in Europe goes to Aston
    Martin, Jaguar, Lancia, Lotus, Maserati,
    Mini, Morgan, Rolls Royce,
    Saab and TVR.

    "Performance is important too, it
    gives a power reserve and reassurance.
    At Bentley, the new Continental
    GT sets outstanding standards.
    With a top speed of 193 mph it puts
    the Aston Martin Vanquish (part of
    Ford's PAG), which is nearly
    €100,000 ($125,000) more expensive
    in its shadow. People who buy cars
    like these have achieved something
    top in their area whether it is football
    (soccer) or fashion or films, and they
    want their car to do the same thing,"
    he said.

    This idea might seem preposterous
    to some, that a car which can exceed
    the speed limit by more than the
    speed limit itself, at least outside of
    Germany where often there is no
    speed limit at all, would be desirable.
    German speed limit would
    destroy premium advantage
    But Rosengarten is insistent.
    "A speed limit on German motorways
    would be the end of German
    premium brands, yes definitely,
    there's no doubt about that. It is all
    down to image. The fact that German
    cars can attain such high speeds
    forces them all to be very competitive;
    it brings your performance to a
    level which no outsider can compete
    with. The introduction of a speed
    limit on British roads (in 1965) is one
    of the reasons for the industry's demise
    because it didn't have the challenge
    of top competition any more,"
    Rosengarten said.
    Rosengarten is dismissive of the
    threat from Lexus to upmarket European
    sales, even though its amazing
    success in America might be thought
    to pose a long term threat.

    "Pitiful" Lexus

    Calling Lexus' European sales of
    about 20,000 cars a year "pitiful",
    Rosengarten doesn't rate the Japanese
    threat very highly.
    "Without heritage, which means
    a glorious history and brand tradition,
    it will not be easy to establish a successful
    luxury brand in Europe, not to
    mention establish a premium brand.
    All the more so as Lexus has many
    American luxury-style elements with
    its design orientation geared towards
    other premium brands instead of creating
    its own unique elements, and it
    cannot showcase any important innovations,"
    he said.

    Rosengarten does concede that
    Toyota, its Lexus subsidiary and
    Honda's lead in hybrid cars, powered
    by a combination of petrol and electric
    motors, might give them some
    street cred, but he points to an ominous
    "Globally, Lexus is selling less... continued next
  • reality2reality2 Posts: 303
    ...cointunied from previous post...

    "Globally, Lexus is selling less
    than half of Audi's volume, and less
    than those of BMW and Mercedes-

    Not everybody falls for the line
    that car buyers demand a race-bred
    heritage for their cars, or that the Germans
    are the only manufacturers capable
    of producing high quality vehicles
    with a sporty drive.

    The new little Lexus IS, which
    competes with the BMW 3 series,
    Audi A4 and Mercedes C-class,
    drives as well as its Europeancounterparts
    and looks just as classy.

    The new top-of-the-range Lexus LS
    limousine is surely equal to the Mercedes
    S class, BMW 7-series or Audi
    A8, while another Japanese luxury
    marque, Nissan's Infiniti, shortly to
    start selling in Europe, is no slouch
    when it comes to high class design.
    Cadillac will also be claiming bragging
    rights for its new cars which are
    also being seen in Europe in increasing
    numbers. Though pitiful at best. Chrysler's eye-catching
    300C and various Jeep SUVs are also
    competing vigorously in Europe.

    No God given right

    Professor Garel Rhys of Cardiff
    University Centre for Automotive
    Research isn't convinced that the Germans
    have all the answers. The likes
    of Lexus have also shown that high
    quality doesn't have to mean prices
    that make the eyes water. And outright
    performance might not be such
    a big seller where consumers are becoming
    more aware of the need to
    conserve previous fuel and resources.
    "There's no God given right that
    German hegemony at the top end of
    the car market will continue, and
    when you look at the success of
    Lexus in America, which has forced
    the Germans to engage in more realistic
    pricing strategy, Lexus has certainly
    opened the eyes of American
    buyers of German products to the
    level of prices they are asked to pay,"
    said Rhys.

    "Their latest models appeal to
    the European eye and consumers and
    are not geared entirely to the American
    market, unlike Infiniti, which
    needs a more global shape. Lexus is a
    very, very competitive package, good
    handling and efficiency, the sort of
    car that can give BMW, Audi and
    Mercedes a good run for their

    Speed not everything

    "This book gives a very German
    view of the automobile. Customers
    aren't just interested in speed, but
    other things like style and quality.
    And with everybody becoming more
    aware and interested in global warming,
    the pursuit of speed is at variance
    with what might become a more acceptable
    attitude. High earners too
    like to demonstrate their social responsibility.
    Arguing that the Cayenne
    is faster than the Range Rover,
    is not the message required in the
    market place," said Rhys.
    High quality, value for money,
    and a great experience at the dealership
    are Japanese attributes that will
    work for them even in the upmarket
    sector, said Al Bedwell, auto analyst
    at JDPower's operation in England.
    "Having said that I think that
    German car buyers may be influenced
    by good motor sport results,
    but that's just a feeling. But with the
    right designs and dealer network,
    Lexus could be a lot more of a threat
    to German premium brands. Lack of
    a sporting heritage is only a minor
    handicap," said Bedwell.

    Bedwell estimates that Lexus
    will raise its sales in Europe to between
    45,000 and 55,000 by 2010,
    while Infiniti, which launches in Russia
    later this year and will start a fullscale
    roll out across Europe in 2008,
    will hit 20,000 by the end of 2010.
    Honda's Acura has yet to announce
    any intention of selling its
    cars in Europe.
    Even the Greens agree
    Rosengarten said the German
    premium car makers have been so
    successful that last year Audi, Mercedes,
    BMW and Porsche produced
    more cars than the mass car manufacturers
    in Germany Volkswagen, GM's
    Opel, and Ford.

    "I expect that to continue," he
    said, and underlines the need to make
    sure Germany's roads remain unrestricted
    by speed limits.
    "It is important to keep away
    from a speed limit in Germany. All
    politicians from the main parties
    agree with this, even the Greens realise
    its importance; after machine tooling,
    automobiles are the biggest employer
    in Germany," he said.
    Professor Rhys isn't convinced
    about this need for speed.
    "It would be rather worrying
    from a German point of view if this
    book reflects the attitude of the companies.
    But I don't think they're so
    enamoured with speed as this book is
    pushing forward. The German vehicle
    manufacturers are unlikely to fall
    into this trap provided by this book,"
    he said.
  • reality2reality2 Posts: 303
    I'll fly Air Europe...the food is better!
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,343
    I am trying to get a handle on HELM -- isn't price the key?

    As I read through some of the recent posts it appears that many of the cars discussed here have high five up into six figure MSRP's.

    I cannot tick them all off, from the top of my head, but aren't virtually all the cars that command that kind of MSRP's "high end?" And, those cars in the price range noted are all luxury cars no?

    As a frequent participant on the LPS forum and a former owner of an Audi A8, I also wonder as I am attempting to get up to speed, how much "performance" counts in this class of cars?

    I have not, for years, driven an A8, 7 Series or high S class -- and the last time I drove the big buck Lexus, although more recent, was also some time ago.

    The recent write ups of the Lexus hybrids do make them seem to be VERY powerful, but I still have not read comments about them that would suggest they place high value on performance.

    The $100K Lexus has to be HE and I would hope LM, but is it also a PS? The Germans, based on 4+ year old experience DO emphacize P.

    All the comments pertaining to Lexus are certainly strong and mostly persuasive -- but there does seem to be less "concern" for them with respect to performance.

    Does HELM place low, medium or high value on performance?

    To me, the Audi S8 and a possible RS8 define HELPS, but does that qualify for inclusion in HELM?

    With "lottery" money, an S8 would certainly ring my bell as an HE vehicle.

    What, if any, concensus is there regarding traits -- including and excluding "brand" cache -- to be considered as a member of the HELM club?

    Since I find the size of the LPS family perhaps more to my needs and tastes, I will most likely be an observer here, but I would appreciate some "clarity" regarding the traits that qualify a vehicle to play in this league.

    Thanks for the enlightenment.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    I don't remember saying Audi isn't a HELM.

    Please allow the honorable TagMan to respectfully refresh the good doctor's memory.

    In post 16213 I requested you to say that "Audi is a HELM".

    In post 16214 you replied "Audi can be a HELM for YOU. Not a HELM for me."

    Very true . . . Audi is indeed a HELM for me and blkhemi and others, but you clearly said it . . . that FOR YOU, in YOUR opinion, according to YOU, DrFill, from YOUR perspective Audi is not a HELM.

    Doc, that's OK if you don't think it is. We just won't agree. But you are most welcome to change your mind, my friend, or even maybe you could put a spin on this whole thing and admit you didn't use the best choice of words, and that you actually meant to say it IS a HELM. That would be fine with me.

    So . . . here's your chance . . . Tell us that "Audi IS a HELM. Maybe a second-tier HELM, in your opinion, but that it IS a HELM.

    Can you go with that? C'mon, Doc, I'm tryin' to work with ya here. :D

  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    Hallelujah! I finally made somebody's list.

    YES!!! :surprise:
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