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High End Luxury Cars



  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Then I would definitely call Toyota arrogant. Any auto company that builds its reputation on quality and is accused of the above is not only arrogant but also hypocritical and criminally negligent!

    OMG, how could anyone not see that arrogance all these years ? Thanks Dewey for pointing that out to us. Of course those who point one finger at another, find that the other 4 are pointing their way.... MB/BMW execs must be epitomes of automobile modesty...
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Saw a 2007 Camry from the rear today. Absolutely striking in its ugliness- the worst-looking tail-lights ever designed, IMO...

    "Striking in its ugliness"... "worst looking tail-lights ever designed"... And this is coming from an owner of a Bangled 5-series ?

    2007 Camry (rear)

    2007 LS460 (rear)

    2007 550i (rear)
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Oac... put up the ES too. It's very close to the LS. But I like the LS better because of the wider C-column with kink, and rocker panel which breaks up the slab sides.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    No! You can't be serious! :mad:

    The only car/truck/suv more bought, stripped, and dissected by it's "Competition" than the Lexus RX is the 3-series, and I'm probably wrong on that!

    Buick Rundesvouz, Mercedes ML350, Kia Sorento, Saturn Outlook, Chevy Equinox, et al, are all beneficiaries of Lexus DNA, albeit by artificial insemenation.

    The RX is clearly the best premium SUv on Earth, and apparently everyone but you has gotten the memo.

    GM, Acura, Mercedes, and especially Audi have serious wet dreams about building an RX300. Or RX330. Or RX350.

    They have a dream.

  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    The last time the Camry aped the Lexus LS, the Camry took over the world, as did the Lexus LS.

    At least the American part of it!

    Can lightning strike twice in the same place?

    Damm, too late.

    But, then again, I guess it would be hard for you to re-dominate a market you already dominate, huh?

    That would be re-dundant. :confuse:

    I've even heard Merc compliment the Camry for it's stylishiousness!

    Score another one for Team Lexus! Woo-Hoo! :shades:

    There is good news for the rest of the automakers.

    It's not like Lexus LS/Toyota Camry can pass you again.

    Maybe they'll check their rear view mirror.

    For nostalgic purposes. ;)

  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    I'm not sure if you have an opinion via your last post, but the Chevy Impala, Nissan Maxima (pick any over the last 10 years), and the 740i have dibs on "Worst Rear-End Ever Created".

    I can never pick between them. :confuse:

  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    His opinion is like yours and most Lexicans... rah rah rah, sis boom bah, Lexuses look the best... by far. :P

    (I said most, not all.)
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    No offense to whoever coined the term, but is "Lexicans" really a good use of English? Shouldn't it be "Lexians"? I can't think of any examples of names that are converted to "-cans" without a "c" already being present in the original word (as in Mexico/Mexicans).
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    Why don't you show the 5's rear from the same angle as the Camry?
    You know there is no comparison.
    The people have spoken with their pocket books making the Bangle 5 series the overwhelming LPS of choice.
    You can think it's ugly. Obviously tens of thousands of people with taste, don't.
    The Camry rear looks like something I would expect to see in a comic strip.
    Just looking at that top photo gives me the creeps.
    I beg you in the name of humanity, please delete that top photo! :lemon:
    Leave the photo of the LS. That looks nice.
    Looking forward to seeing it up close.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289 guys are soo funny!!! Get a life.

    The 5-series is just about as ugly and bland as a car can get. Looks like the old Kia Rio from the back. There is only one new BMW that actually looks tasteful and that is the BMW 3-series. Oh, and the Z4.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    That's really funny because I can't stand the rear of the new 3 series.
    Everybody's different.

    If the 5 is so ugly and bland as you profess, why are so many people buying or leasing it?
    Human nature being what it is, people would be embarrassed to drive a vehicle perceived as ugly and bland.

    So why is the beautiful GS on the verge of extinction?

    Talk all you want. I will lull myself to sleep with those fabulous sales numbers.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    The BMW rear with those tail lights looks like something out of the Thomas the Tank engine kids series. I miss that show - too bad my kids outgrew it. Maybe the trunk will open, take away the pain it brings to my eyes and Ringo Starr or George Carlin will pop out of it with their conductor uniforms on. Honestly that trunk looks like it's trying to give birth to something - maybe another sequel to Alien.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    If the 5 is so ugly and bland as you profess, why are so many people buying or leasing it? Human nature being what it is, people would be embarrassed to drive a vehicle perceived as ugly and bland.

    Good question... Howard. Now lets use your exact point here: Do you realise the Camry is the #1 selling mid-size car in America ? So going by your argument for the 5-series (see above) is the Camry as ugly as you claim it to be if that many people love it that much ? Seems to me that some Germancarfans will trip over themselves just to bash Lex/Toyota that they'd even make conflicting arguments...

    Oh, I will get you those pics of the 5-series you asked for, but would you be happy to stare at them ???
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Oac... put up the ES too. It's very close to the LS...

    As requested...

    ES350 (rear side profile)

    LS460 (rear side profile)
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Why don't you show the 5's rear from the same angle as the Camry? You know there is no comparison.

    2006 550i (rear side profile)

    2007 Camry (rear side profile)

    And a Camry XLE

    Yes there is no comparison, the CAMRY is a far better styled car than a Bangled 5-series.... And if sales is a good judge, as you opined for the Bimmer 5, then the Camry is much loved (beloved, really) by hundred of thousands of Americans as the car is flying off dealer lots in record numbers, just as DrFill pointed out.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    They definitely should've used that grille for all Camry models. The standard grille makes the nose look somewhat bulbous.

  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Yes, at projected 25MPG, that's less than 30% better fuel efficiency than an LS460. So come again with the "conserve fuel" thingy !!! And why do you tell me I don't know what Lexus brand mission is ? Care to educate me since you know it so well... Sheesh

    Well you don't seem to have a clue as to what it is yourself. Now you're wording that "30 percent" as though it is no big deal yet when this car hits the market you'll be doing all the cheering about how good its MPG numbers are and how it duplicated some German's V12s in performance.

    What is the point of spending so much money on a hybrid if not to at least to get better MPG while in Lexus' case to also get better performance? If the aim was just to duplicate BMW/Audi (not a prayer of duplicating MB V12 performance) then why not just build a V12 like everyone else? Explain to me why the LS600h L is a hybrid not just another big-engined top of the line sedan like the 760Li or A8L W12?

    So in your world, only hybrids tout their MPG ratings ? Haven't seen many car ads lately ???

    See again, another example of a twist. Of course hybrids are about their MPG numbers, that is their main function in most cases. Those ads you're talking about are for regular cars, not high-end cars so that leave Lexus out of the MPG hard-sell ads you see on TV right now.

    and you do know what every Prius owner/greenie thinks as well, and how this will impact LS600hL perception by these greenies, eh ???

    Nope, of course not just like you don't know if the opposite will happen. I made that point about 2 pages ago.

  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    So you are saying that MB prices are HIGHER bcos of the issues I listed here ?

    Of course they are. Who here ever said that MB's cars weren't priced higher in part due to inherent problems with building a car in Germany? I mean seriously have you not been paying attention to the dialogue all this time?

    And buyers couldn't care less even when they end up paying for these overpriced automobiles ? Hmmmm.... Let's read more on the rants....

    Obviously not if they're buying these "overpriced" MB products. For one people don't "end up" paying for anything. You walk in or browse the car of your choice on the net and you either buy or you don't. I seriously doubt many buyers in this segment "end up" buying something they don't feel is worth the money. Now they may feel like that down the road, but that can happen with any car.

    When it is going to sink in here that buyers couldn't care less as to WHY a car is priced the way it is, or what a particular company's production structure is like? All they care about is the end result, that being in this case the MSRP (and what they can get off of it).

    Like I said earlier, if MB could make their cars cheaper, and price it less, would they sell more or less cars ? And here is the kicker, MB's lofty price does NOT equate higher profit margin !

    Again, what does all this business nonsense have to do with anything else being talked about here? Where has anyone speaking up about Germancars ever said that the above statement isn't true? Where? Of course MB would like to dramatically lower cost, price it a little less and make a bigger profit, that is common sense. Why you think this is relevant to the average buyer who knows little (or cares) or anything about what it takes to produce a car is beyond me. I guess anytime anyone says anything negative about Toyota or Lexus this about their costs, profits, production techniques is the standard response no matter what is being talked about. So tired that knee-jerk response is!

    Conversely, Lexus makes more profit on their products than MB does despite their lower prices... Go figure !!! Its all business, Merc1... all business.

    Yeah sure that must by why MB can't sell a car because buyers are tuned into this nonsense. NOT! A car is for a lot of folks (not Lexus buyers obviously) somewhat of an emotional purchase and it is anything but "all business" all the time, otherwise buyers would only buy Toyotas and Hondas. Such utter nonsense OAC. I guess Lexus die-hards can't grasp anything about the cars themselves beyond why it costs what it does, that it is cheaper than the primary competition, how many ++s can be added to features others have brought to the market before it, and lastly what the profits are on the money they're spending to buy a Lexus. It all sounds so sad.

    BTW, I'm still waiting to hear about this 8-speed CVT that the LS is supposed to have.

    Price is a HUGE part of the equation, and MB's lofty prices are justified with those huge HPs and elegant designs... Plus, of course, the brand name is still worth something to buyers.

    Sure it is, and it has a direct impact on sales, but why a car is priced they way it is and all that other jive nonsense is irrelevant to most buyers.

    German car brands in this country on are on the rise all at the same time for the first time in years, every one of them from VW,Audi,BMW,MB, and Porsche are up this year and that obliterates this bunk about buyers caring about why a car is priced the way it is. Do you really think if buyers knew (or cared) about how much trouble is it to produce a car in Germany they'd really want to buy one?

    All this about a buyer caring about why a car is priced the way it is falls under the same catergory as a buyer caring about what a CEO says or company's profit statements. Toyota/Lexus fantics are the only ones in the whole world who believe that. Honda, Porsche, BMW and others that make money also and they don't have nearly the same one-track group of supporters when it comes to all this irrelvancy about corporate matters.

    "Disingenious", "specious", "fallacious", "two-faced", "hypocritical", .... wow !!! All that in one sentence ??? Didn't realise how some Germancarfans are so emotional ! Phew !!! Emotional outbursts aside, here are facts... the S-class prices are HIGH bcos their costs (to produce these cars) are HIGH... And the LS prices are LOWER for the same reasons in reverse. Tack on brand name uplift, FWIW... Got that ? What part of this fits all the adjectives and invectives you just spewed above ?

    See how you didn't address anything with this? The point was that you made the claim that the LS460's price will start in 5-Series/E-Class space and then you say the LS will be the best selling car in its class. That is the specious part because it is priced way below the "class" based on those numbers. You didn't even touch on THAT with the above response, only the same old tired (and irrelevant to the conversation) reasons about why the S-Class is priced higher. I guess when you can't address the subject at hand the standard Lexus line of defense has to be used. You didn't touch the sales part of it at all!

    So the LS starts where the E/5/GS ends (don't forget the GS430/E500/550i are all at around $60K list), but has MORE features than the S-class brings to the party

    Your point is? The LS does not have more features either. It appeals to those who count having more speakers and more gears as having "more features", generally the uninformed about "real" features. Lexus has become what some here have accused Mercedes of being, "about numbers". If MB has a 7-speed tranny, Lexus does 8 and if a MB has a hard-drive with XXXX if storage Lexus has one with XXXXX this much. The reason I say this is because when MB brought these things to the table FIRST it was matterless, but because Lexus took the idea from MB and added to it, we're supposed to be in awe. Not. Lexus innovates only in the minds of those who don't know what innovation is, well except for hybrids. On hybrids they lead head and shoulders for sure.

    ... And it will appear that the new LS series of cars will continue to kick the S-class in sales, and will dominate the NA full-size luxury market for years to come. And their is nothing MB or BMW can do about that. You do know why, of course...

    Yeah when a LS starts at the price of a E-Class or 5-Series why shouldn't it outsell at car that goes for about 90K at the moment. There aren't any cheapo lease deals on the S-Class either at the moment so you can't go there. On the LS board I see where some think the average price of a SWB LS460 will be 67K, not even close to the 86K where the S550 starts. Even the LS460L is pegged (per your 07 LS board) at 75-82K, close to the base of a S550, but not equal.

  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    The new Camry at least looks like something. The old car was as exciting to look at as a concrete block. I've seen a few of them on the road, and I don't think they are bad looking at all, though the SE definitely has a much better grille than the rest. They look much better from the back than the restyled Accord, which I think looks absolutely awful.

    There is that wording again! Yes I agree, the SE Camry can actually make you wonder what it is before you see that snout!

  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I'll be there! I didn't read the details, but is the LS460 going to be there?

  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    You know Doc this untruth about the RX has gone on long enough. Yes the Koreans and GM (might) mock the RX, but the others don't. Beyond making their vehicles more car-like, i.e. using a car chassis to build them on, other brand's SUVs don't have much in common with the RX. Land Rover couldn't care any less about the RX and clearly the best "premium" SUV on earth is the Range Rover, not the fwd-wagon thingy the RX is.

    I see no envy from Land Rover, Porsche, Infiniti, VW or BMW when it comes to the Lexus RX and none of them even consider it to be anything more than what it is, a tall fwd wagon. Yes, MB did switch the program (frame/construction) around with the ML for the 2nd generation, I'll give you that, but the ML is easily more capable at being a SUV. The RX is nothing more than the ultimate posermobile.

    The RX isn't even a real SUV, it can't go off road past a wet gravel parking lot!

  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    The Camry was the number one selling car in America PRIOR to the new model, Oac.
    The car may be flying off the lots now as a brand new model, but let's see how the sales are going after the first 6-9 months of introduction.
    I predict that the styling is controversial enough to bring more people Hyundai's way.
    I look for the Hyundai Sonata to overtake the Camry as the number one selling car in the USA by the end of 2007.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    The ironic thing in the Camry's new-founded ugliness is Toyota tried to rip off the Bangle 5 tail lights, which is an understandable tribute to this great designer who took BMW to the next level in sales but unlike BMW, Toyota botched it up.
    Now Ma and Pa Jones who drive a 2007 Camry look like they belong in the Blondie comic strip. They better drive real fast to avoid having to listen to being ridiculed by their neighbors.
    Whereas people who drive the Bangle 5 are admired and watched breathtakingly as they aerodynamically glide by to their next significant destination.

    When I saw the new Camry, my second reaction was that Toyota just opened the door for Hyundai to surpass them in this country. The first reaction, of course was uncontrollable laughter.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    "The BMW rear with those tail lights"

    Well, just whom did Toyota copy (rather ludicrously) the new Camry's tail lights from?
    Gimmee a B... Gimmee an M...!

    It's always the same with Toyota/Lexus design. They can't come up with anything original on their own, so they steal-first from MB and now from BMW.
    The Bangle tail lights have now been immortalized in the Camry, Avalon and LS.
    You might as well get used to them.
  • feverhartfeverhart Posts: 144
    Last Saturday I participated in the Ride&Driver/Road&Track Ride and Drive event at FedEx Field near DC. We test drove and evaluated The Cadillac SRX and CTS, BMW 530i, and the Lexus RX350. We did the extreme on the (obstacle ) course. I even actuated the DSL of the Bimmer and left the cones standing. It was a great driving experience.
    I had not driven any of these vehicles before, so to me it was a back to back comparison experience. If I were to determine a benchmark among these cars, it would be the RX350. Other drivers may not have come to the same conclusion; it was my personal choice.
    So who is the final authority on benchmarks? Individual values and personal preferences differ and I would not presume to answer for every one; I don't believe it's engraved in stone.
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    Ahem - you're on the right track, however, the correct suffix for those who are "of Lexus", would actually be Lexans.... Texas, Texans...etc. :confuse:
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    The RX350 vs the 530i.
    Well, let's see-they do both have 4 wheels.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    No offense to whoever coined the term, but is "Lexicans" really a good use of English? Shouldn't it be "Lexians"? I can't think of any examples of names that are converted to "-cans" without a "c" already being present in the original word (as in Mexico/Mexicans).

    No offense taken.

    First of all we should be chiding people, especially those in prominent positions, for abuse of language such as pronouncing the word “nuclear” as nu-kye-ler, not people in the creative writing environment known as HELMs.

    There was a time as you should recall when Dewey was Davey Crockett defending the Alamo, making the argument of German-car reliability against Japanese cars or something to that effect. It was only fitting that Lexicans storm the Alamo not Lexians. In this context I believe the metaphor and alliteration rule. “Lexican” is now part of the lexicon in Edmunds forums. Accordingly, it would probably be sanctioned by Webster’s because of common usage, as is the nuke-ye-lar pronunciation.

    Lexians? Lexans? Na-a-h (shakes head). Forcing the issue would be pedantic. Lexicans. It’s another color in the box of crayons. It works.

  • willis3willis3 Posts: 76
    Do you know if that event will be in the NYC area? If so, do you have a URL?
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    I can swear I read a post by you that said the Camry was beautiful when you walked past one in a parking lot or on a street. You have this tendency to flip flop just like you did with the GS that you were dying to buy but was too expensive vs the 5-series lease deals. You brag about performance as the issue but my read of your past posts was the cheaper lease deal ruled your purchase. There's nothing wrong with that but it'd be nice to have consistancy. As well I thought there was once a discussion here that the 5 series tail lights were a copy of someone elses - maybe even Lexus. However you want to look at it those 5 series tail lights are ugly and complex looking with Bangle's eyebrow touch. The Camry's are hardly great but at least they are crisp and clean.
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