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High End Luxury Cars



  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251
    I am trying to figure out the point of your post but your rhetoric keeps on getting in the way.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251

    I am trying to figure out the point of your post but your rhetoric keeps on getting in the way.

    Although your rhetoric would certainly not be out of place in Lexus marketing brochures. Since you've enlightened me with the Lexus version of promo talk I shall do likewise and enlighten you with the BMW version right from the mouth of the BMW VP of Marketing himself:

    Jack Pitney: Historically, if you look back at how different German brands market themselves, they have always tended to market the engine excellence. With the [hybrid] engine, when we bring a different concept to the market, it has to be uniquely BMW's interpretation of whatever product it is. [For instance, we call] our X5 a 'sports activity vehicle' versus an SUV . . . when we launched it, it was all about the drive. SUVs before that had been very practical but didn't drive so well on an existing truck platform. We positioned ours as a perfect driving machine and we've had tremendous success with it. So when we bring a hybrid power train to the market, it has to be the ultimate type of power train and has to remain true to what we do.

    I must regretfully say that BMW rhetoric is almost as bad as Lexus rhetoric.

    link title
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419

    Interesting report. Lexus swept the premium segments with the exception of compact sports car (they dont have one), and full size lux SUV, which they lost to Cadillac. The Z4 and SLK were nominated, but lost to the S2000.

    Cadillac, Jaguar and BMW all did very well. BMW actually slightly edged out Infiniti, which is surprising, as this VDS doesn't include the awful QX56.

    Mercedes was below average, but well above Audi, and Porsche. Pretty large gap between Porsche's IQS and VDS data. As usual, Land Rover is embarrasingly bad.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Ha... I figured those BMW-rose glasses are getting thicker these days, eh ?

    More rhetoric for you... link title

    Lexus winning 12-in-a-row car dependability honors.... in a survey of 47,000+ owners. Geez.. what a lame concept ! It surely doesn't drive as well as a BMW, eh ? How dependability doesn't factor into a car ownership beats me.. except for the Germancarfans who seem to live in their cars ;)
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251

    the most interesting quote about the JD Power findings is the following:

    The gap in long-term quality between luxury and non-luxury brands has been cut in half during the past four years, according to the J.D. Power and Associates 2006 Vehicle Dependability StudySM (VDS) released today.

    In other words if long term quality is a top priority, then buying a luxury vehicle makes less sense than four years ago.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251
    Please refer to my last link above. If long-term quality is your top priority then why waste your money on luxury :confuse:
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    12-in-a row car dependability honors."

    After all this time you still don't get it.

    We at Club Europe couldn't give a hoot at reliability studies or awards for such.

    Wake us up when any Lexus wins an award for driving excitement. Should be a long sleep.


    Meanwhile, BMW, the Company of Ideas, has won World Car Of The Year, the highest of international honors.

    Even Suburu won an international award for best engine.

    Where was Lexus? They don't even have an international presence. Strictly a minor league sham perpetrated by Toyota on those gullible enough not to recognize a re-badged Toyota when they see one.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Please refer to my last link above. If long-term quality is your top priority then why waste your money on luxury..

    Huh ? OK... Let's put your rhetorical question another way:

    If owning a car is all you care about, why did you put all that cash into a BMW ? Won't just about any car fit the bill ??? Oh... I see, you do care about something in the car you choose to own, eh ? C'mon, make these rhetorical questions more challenging....
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    We at Club Europe couldn't give a hoot at reliability studies or awards for such.

    Wake us up when any Lexus wins an award for driving excitement. Should be a long sleep.

    Yes, snooze alright... I take it you do sleep in your Bimmer as well since you love its driving so much... I think its you who just don't get it with a one-track mindset. Is that even healthy ?

    Part of the problem is you'd trumpet an award for something a Euro car wins but trash any Lexus wins like it doesn't matter in the scheme of car ownership. Maybe you didn't get the memo: not everyone cares about or wants a BMW. And in particular to HELM (keeping it on topic), even fewer people cares about a 7-series, compared to an S or an LS... Even YOU don't care for a 7-series, or do you ? Without the 3-series, where would BMW be today ? Lexus/Toyota has so many winners its incredible for a car company.

    Why don't YOU wake us up when BMW gets within a 10-mile shouting distance of the size, clout and world domination as Toyota/Lexus ? That'd be like -- NEVER --
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251
    If the gap was cut in half between the performance/handling of luxury and non-luxury cars then I would definitely hesitate in buying a luxury marque.

    If Subaru WRX sti had more interior space and did not have such an adolescent look and is sold at a lower price in Canada (CDN MSRP is equivalent to 47k US$) then yes I would consider a Subaru.

    And the above is no rhetoric.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251
    Maybe you didn't get the memo: not everyone cares about or wants a BMW.


    are you not the same fellow who recently considered buying a BMW550i over a Lexus LS?

    Why dont you come out of the closet and confess that you are just another BMW fan like Howard . The only difference between you and Howard is your reluctance in confessing that BMWs are more fun to drive.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    If Subaru WRX sti had more interior space and did not have such an adolescent look and is sold at a lower price in Canada (CDN MSRP is equivalent to 47k US$) then yes I would consider a Subaru.

    Well, there's always the Legacy Spec.B, which looks more grown up and has more space. It doesn't have the STi's power, but a chip could probably fix that. Another option is the Mazdaspeed6, which also has a powerful turbocharged 4, MT, and AWD.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    I'd consider buying a 550i of course. I love cars of all sorts that's why I have 3 different kinds of cars. What I am NOT is a one-track minded person, only concerned with ONE sole issue - a car's performance. If that 550i meets my other needs - quality, build, features, reliability and luxury appointments, BMW would get my money in a hurry. Does the 550i meet all of these ? The jury is still out... Until then, my money considers an LS460, a car brand that has yet to disappoint me over my many years of ownership.

    And btw, I agree with you that BMW is lots more fun to drive than a Lexs, but it doesn't offer me ALL I want in a car.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251
    No thanks!

    I test drove both cars (Legacy GT not Spec B) and believe me they are not at all as exciting to drive as the luxury cars I test drove or own right now.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    At one time Toyota appealed to sport-minded drivers as well as their conservative base.
    They were producing fine cars with the Supra and the neat, little Celica.
    My heart raced when I first got behind the wheel of a Supra, so many years ago.

    Why they abandoned this segment, I do not know.
    I hear Toyota may be coming out with a new Supra sometime soon.

    Why Lexus can't produce the 2007 LS with a serious sport package as Toyota does with the Camry SE is beyond me.

    Perhaps the re-emergence of the Supra indicates a serious change of direction which hopefully, will filter up to Lexus.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    Whoa! Oac! Were you seriously considering getting a 550i?

    It really would be nice to have both the LS and 550i, wouldn't it?

    One, a great cruiser, the other for those exciting weekend jaunts.

    Then you would become the HELM board's true moderate! :)
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    At least Toyota offered variation of the same theme to a diverse group of buyers. BMW solely appeals to the so-called "performance-minded" folks. Nothing wrong with that, but don't you see how such a "limited" approach is fraught with risks? If and when Toyota brings back a Supra, it won't radically change Toyota's image in the performance world. They'd need serious contention in F1, Le Mans, and other racing events to really put their name on the map, and feed off that. A new Supra is just a new souped-up sports car. Not gonna take over the world, tho' it would be nice if it does :) I am hoping Toyota stays to its strength and continue to churn out quality products.

    Let me say it here: NOTHING beats quality !!! Nothing.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    I wish I could afford BOTH... Yes, I was considering a 550i IF the new LS460 is priced outrageously.

    I got yet another call today from my Lexus dealer. The SWB LS460 loaded is priced at $72K. But he offered me an olive branch... if I want, I could get an '06 LS430 discounted from $64K to $55K + TTL. I said thanks... but no thanks...
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    I don't know about that. I will surely test drive a new Supra because of the fond memories I have of the original Supra.
    Shouldn't seriously affect Toyota's strength or indicate a 180 degree change in direction.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    I'm sending you a Club Europe application form.
    It will be in a plain white envelope with no return address.
    Nobody at Lexus has to know! ;)
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251
    Let me say it here: NOTHING beats quality !!! Nothing

    Based on my own statistical analysis I have concluded with 99.9 % accuracy that there is definitely a inverse relationship between quality and driving excitement

    Here is my proof:

    Latest JD Power Dependability Results Rankings

    1) Lexus
    2) Mercury
    3) Buick
    4) Cadillac
    5) Toyota

    Is it a mere 0.1% coincidence that the manufacturers above do not manufacture exciting cars? I dont think so! In fact a high JD Power ranking is a warning and not a temptation to buy.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Very funny indeed ! I like that one, Dewey....
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    The 550i is devestating!

    In this day and age, quality issues with BMWs are more about small annoyances than major engine or electrical failures.

    I have my 545i for 13 months now with not one complaint.
    The car has been flawless. You just bring it in every 15,000 miles for its synthetic oil-which is covered under the 4 year warranty.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    I'm sending you a Club Europe application form.

    Nothing wrong with that. I'd gladly accept... I drive my friends 330i every other weekend. The car is a lotta fun. And he has even chirped the heck out of the engine, but you'd never know since from the outside, everything is all stock.

    I have said it before, and I'll say it again, after my kids leave the nest, I'd consider getting rid of something to get a vert or 2-door sports car, and a 330/335 is certainly a strong contender. But for now, I enjoy my Lexus and look forward to the newer and better models to come. I'm only 43 now, I can imagine that in 20 yrs I'd see myself driving real fast, sporty performance-inclined cars. Why ? I'd like to re-live my lead-footed youth, which I live by till today, and imagine I'd continue to as long as I can move my body and get inside a car without a nurse... :)
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Posts: 2,302

    For what it's worth, my dealer told me today that they are of the opinion that a more realistic pricing has the SWB LS460 starting in the mid 60s K. They wholeheartedly agree that the basic LS 460 starting in the 70s K would be totally out of line.

    By the way, do you have a link to that MT article about the new LS?
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    Where I live, I am surrounded by retirees who are mostly driving minivans.
    Something to do with their lack of flexibility I guess. Easy to get in and out.
    Time to hang up the keys, the day I start looking at minivans.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    So, the JDP study shows Mercedes Benz, the often accused repair shop lizard, as just a bit below average, which is certainly no nightmare as it is often portrayed.

    And . . . it is rated better then Porsche and even Hyundai, which have been getting lots of quality kudos lately.

    Even more interesting is that the average itself has improved to the point that an average vehicle is pretty darned good.

    Great news for Lexus, of course, but important news for Mercedes, IMO.

    Always nice to see Jaguar doing well.

  • anthonypanthonyp Posts: 1,860
    Wasn`t that test for three year old cars?? OAC, when I was your age I also went for Lexus as I think from a financial point of view they deliver...I am presently enjoying an Audi, but with the age has come caution, so don`t wait too long Tony
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    I read the bottom portion of the test and have come away mystified:

    Since when has the Buick Regal, Cadillac Deville(not DTS), and Acura CL come back into production?

    These tests are almost always so useless. You have a paltry brand like Mercury(Ford) trailing the reliable top-dog Lexus, 3 slots ahead of the perfect Toyota? You can't tell me that you're still believing this crap...

    Ah, but there is one saving grace. Maybe it's all of the recall that've plagued TOYota as of late.
  • Nightmare starts after warranty expires, which you failed to admit.

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