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High End Luxury Cars



  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Doc and Houdini... you don't like it when the LS is criticized sight unseen, neither touched or driven. Yet it's OK for you to declare it the king of the HELMs etc. when you also haven't had so much as a sniff of it. Go back and read your posts and see if you can comprehend what you are saying.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 7,472
    Simple deduction dman. The old LS 430 is already a better car in many respects than the S. Better value, better reliability, better resale, better dealer support, better NVH and quieter. It also is a better hi-way cruiser, looks better, and costs a whole lot less. This is just my humble opinion of course.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    So when a review of the new S-Class indicates that it sets a new standard and becomes the new benchmark, we should just assume that, according to you, it ACTUALLY means that the S-Class is the new benchmark except for the old LS430? :P

    C'mon, houdini, you're crackin me up here. :D

    And you still haven't proved your claim that people called the LS460 a "piece of crap".

    Man, I'm good with you loving the LS and all that, but what's going on here? :confuse:

  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 7,472
    OK, Tag, you got me. Maybe I exaggerated a tiny little bit. Just trying for some of that balance. :)

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • reality2reality2 Posts: 303
    Whether the new S-Class is the so called "benchmark" is usually the opinion of biased automotive journalists or is only that an "opinion" and not fact. Generally, I have found automotive journalists to overhype certain brands at the expense of others due to whatever floats their boats. In reality the case is usually not so. Same applies for the S-Class. It is not necessarily ahead of the A8 or the new LS. The 7-Series (well that is not a real HELM), but for the most part, the S-Class achieves what MB wanted it to do. It is not necessarily superior to an A8L for example just because someone says so. Having said that, I find the A8L and the S-Class as the leaders in the HELM in terms of sheer presence and quality (not to mention heritage).
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    OK, Tag, you got me. Maybe I exaggerated a little.

    Good enough. ;)

    Now we can get back to "fair and balanced" (sounds like Fox news) posts again.

  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    I understand your point. Certainly pure objectivity is a challenge and can be elusive when declaring a "benchmark". There are no absolutes here . . . but there can be a general concensus.

    I generally give higher credibility to the majority, or general concensus, and avoid any extreme perspectives.

  • reality2reality2 Posts: 303
    This is conjecture and based more on conspiracy theories than actual information. It is a stupid article at best considering some of the moronic comments by the the magazine CAR. It states that Dr. Piech would use the Porsche 25 per cent stake in VW (it is actually at 21 per cent, with an option to take 25 per cent)to launch a bid for the whole VW Group and replace Dr. Pischetsrieder with current Porsche boss, Dr. Wendelin Wiedeking. This makes reasonable sense, but the unknown scribe then loses the plot and suggests that Piech would spin off Lamborghini to protect Porsche. If there is concern about Lamborghini's success then surely it is better to take the profit rather than give it to a competitor? Furthermore, the article maintains that Pischetsrieder is out of favour because of "...his failure to protect VW from Audi's excessive migration into every niche imaginable...someone will have to be to strong enough to check Audi's exuberance which reaches critical mass with the forthcoming R8, a car so evocative in threatens to make Lamborghinin obsolete." This is plain stupid and false! Without Audi's success and ascendence, the VW Group would be in real trouble and the writer obviously does not understand the brand business or human nature I would venture. People who buy Audis do so because they want the brand, and no matter how good a VW may be, it is not an Audi. As you see the A3 is quite a success with its premium position. The person wants to be seen in an Audi. Audi's profit continues to soar and Morgan Stanley has stated that Audi is right on target to meet all its goals. CAR is notorious for its anti-Audi tribble and its kissing a$$ of BMW. So, these strange writings are expected from them.

    Also, Audi has taken Lamborghini from sales of 300 unreliable cars to nearly 2000 in just five years, suggesting that Audi does know something about the supercar market yet alone the its own premium status. Audi Czar Dr. Winterkorn knows exactly what he is doing and VW and Porsche know it.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    After claiming a 5.4 time, C&D actually found it to be a disappointing 6.0 flat.
    I won't be able to accurately determine this for myself at the "Taste", but my 545 is around 5.4, so I know what it feels like to be that fast, and I will be able to tell if the LS is closer to the 5.4 as claimed or the 6.0 that C&D found.

    I wouldn't bet on Jack Nicholas either. He lives several blocks away and has a 23 handicap, but he has won a few club tournaments and wears a genuine Relox to prove it.
  • reality2reality2 Posts: 303
    And there is no problem with that. I can go with that. But, as long as we remember it is an "opinion" and not a fact. For example, everyone states how great a Lexus interior is. I have yet to see reality match that opinion. But then I am bias, so you see how the circle continues.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251
    The 7-Series (well that is not a real HELM), but for the most part, the S-Class achieves what MB wanted it to do.

    The 7 series is not a real HELM :confuse:

    IMO the A8L is no HELM if the 7 series is no HELM. Your opinions and my opinions dont really matter one bit since the world knows that both the A8 and 7 Series are real HELMs.

    CAR is notorious for it anti-Audi tribble and its kissing a$$ of BMW.

    CAR and almost every major auto magazine in the world kisses BMW a$$. Why? Is it a conspiracy? Are most auto journalists under control from Bavaria? Or are the majority of auto journalists ignorant about cars? No, no and no again. Is it maybe because BMWs are really that good? Maybe?

    This whole idea that most opinions among auto journalists are drivel is mainly held by disgruntled individuals whose favorite cars are not favored by the press. Maybe you will change your mind when Audi manages to improve the reviews of their cars . In that case I assume you would consider auto journalists far more objective. :P

    At the end of the day the most important reviewer is the car buyer/leaser himself. But that does not in anyway diminish the role of a good auto reviewer. Most of us in this forum read auto mags for a reason and it is certainly not to waste our time. There are many good auto magazine reviewers that do provide valuable and different perspectives about a car.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    I like the Tiger/Nicholas analogy because it compares the acknowledged standard of excellence against the upstart, the Next Great One. I didn't use it to compare Nicholas today to Tiger today.

    If you asked Tiger Woods who is the greatest golfer ever, he'd say Jack, no question. Lexus would give Mercedes the same respect.

    The S550 is the "benchmark". Period. Ok? Not disputing that.

    Is that the end of the story? I think not.

    All I know about the two cars is the LS was more tasteful and elegant, especially out back, after seeing them together.

    My "extreme remarks" were always qualified with Maybe, or words to that effect. Again, the car isn't out yet. The LS always competes well against ANY luxury car, because it has been that good.

    All I'm sayin' is the LS460 has all the ingredients to be the new "benchmark".

    What was the Toyota Camry before the 1992 redesign? The Camry is now the standard, ever since.

    That might be a more "balanced" Camry comparison, because that may not be so far-fetched.

    I will drive the LS460, and hopefully the S550, on the 29th.

  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    That's why even though the LS review from C&D has been especially disappointing, after some initial hesitation, I do intend to drive the LS next month and find out for myself.
    If nothing else, it will give me some insight as to where the Lexus posters are coming from.

    It would be nice if all regular posters here would test drive as many of the HELM offerings that we discuss here as they can so we can compare notes.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251
    I wont. I will have to wait until I reach an age where a stick and a stiff sporty rideis no longer important to me.
    Hopefully my great grand children will give me a soft riding luxury car during my 100th birtday.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    if you are going to mention one of the greatest golfers of all time, at least take the trouble to look up the correct spelling of his name: It's Nicklaus, not Nicholas.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    And do you really think that after they give you that 2064 LS 870, the one that is absolutely guaranteed this time to be the 7 Series killer, that you will actually be able to see it?
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Y'know, Doc, I previously replied to your post with a "copy/paste" on your misspelling of Nicklaus as Nicholas, so it seems I've become your accomplice here in the misspelled golfers crime. To be fair, I'll have to split the fine with you. ;)

    Back to your post, I get your point this time.

    It's all starting to heat up a bit isn't it? As we get closer to the real understanding of what an LS460 truly is and isn't, and how it will honestly compare to the offerings from Mercedes, BMW, Audi, and even Jaguar.

    It will be interesting, and I do hope that we are able to reach some areas of agreement as to how the LS460 ultimately stacks up. That will depend, of course, on how objective we are able to be.

    If history is any lesson, it ain't gonna be all that easy.

    But who knows, maybe the qualities of the LS will be so obvious that they will leave little room for doubt or debate.

    Since I won't be participating in one of the Lexus driving promotions, I will ultimately inspect and test drive the vehicle when it becomes possible at a local dealership.

    After that, we'll be in a better position to compare notes.

  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    C&D had a single preproduction unit for test, under conditions that are not specified. Carmakers publish statistic expectation values of a model run with margins of confidence that they are comfortable to live with. The 0-60 number of your specific 545i is unknown until someone tests it . . . on a hot desert with bald tires, chances are that it won't make 5.4 or 6.
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    Most of us in this forum read auto mags for a reason and it is certainly not to waste our time.

    Actully, yes. Most auto mags are in the leisure, past-time and entertainment section, not considered peer-reviewed scientific journals or real news, the last time i checked.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    I know what it feels like to be that fast, and I will be able to tell if the LS is closer to the 5.4 as claimed or the 6.0 that C&D found.

    If a Lexus rep accompanies you in the right passenger seat, make sure he understands your driving techniques and then proceed to offer him a vomit bag.

    Let me know what you think the 0-100 time is, please. This should prove to be more representative of the way you and I drive, anyway. ;) Since you'll already be at 100, might as well check the 100-0 braking distance, to check for any grabbiness.

    Good luck with your mission. Lethal force is prohibited. And don't eat that pate until after your drive. We wouldn't want your reflexes slowed down.

  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    And do you really think that after they give you that 2064 LS 870, the one that is absolutely guaranteed this time to be the 7 Series killer, that you will actually be able to see it?

    A 8.7L V8 from Lexus seems somewhat unlikely. I'm thinking by 2064, the LS will be hydrogen\electric with a motor per wheel. Ultra capacitors and extremely powerful electric motors will eliminate the need for a traditional big engine.
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    I believe that there will be a substantial number of neutral consumers that will discover this truth, and not be swayed by marketing or gimmicks, but by the genuine realities of these vehicles.

    We will certainly see the result of competition shortly. Within a couple years, we will probably see substantial lease subsidy on one of the two models . . . talk about marketting gimmick :-)
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    extremely powerful electric motors

    Those will also power the massage recliners in the back seats while watching the motorized 42" plasma satellite TV with THX 7.1 surround sound utilizing Mark Levinson Jr.'s 48-speaker 5000 watt system.

    And of course Lexus in the year 2064, still trying to conquer BMW, will have their new slogan: "Lexus - The Ultimate Passenger's Machine".

  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    BMW is more robust than ever. The company has become the industry benchmark for high-performance premium cars, customized production, and savvy brand management, making it the envy of Mercedes-Benz (DCX ), Audi, and Lexus and the subject of Harvard Business School case studies. Even mighty Toyota Motor Corp. (TM ) regularly dispatches engineers to BMW's factories to see how the company cranks out 1.3 million customized cars a year.

    Wow! This is a terrific in-depth article on BMW that we should all appreciate (especially hpowders and Dewey).

    BusinessWeek - BMW's Dream Factory

  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Great read! It is no secret that BMW has been a better run company than either Mercedes or VW/Audi for a few years now. While VW dreamed of selling Mercedes-priced cars/suvs and Mercedes tried to cheap out on quality and buy up other troubled companies, BMW stayed true. Truthly I've liked BMW as a company better than Mercedes for a while now. Mercedes is still finding its way back as is VW/Audi. Only Porsche is run any better IMO when it comes to German car companies.

    BMW is also willing to take more styling risks than either MB or VW/Audi too. You'd think with all the complaints and general dislike of idrive and their newly launched styling theme (2002 7-Series) BMW would be in trouble now, but just the opposite has happened. So much for critics.

    That part about Toyota sending people to BMW factories to look at their production techniques isn't going to be accepted by some of the Toyota/Lexus faithful.

  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    Wow! Looking forward to it. My 120 year old body should be just right for it by then. :(
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    as a company right now, I would be selling Toyota stock at this time and buying BMW shares aggressively.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    When I drive the LS next month, I should have some idea of how fast it accelerates. Mine is about 5.5, pretty much the same.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    I hope there is no Lexus rep. For that, I could visit a Lexus dealer for a test drive.

    My mission at the Lexus Taste arranged in descending order of importance after a 4 hour drive will be:
    restroom, wine, pate, restroom, acceleration, braking, cornering, Maalox, restroom, drive home.
    It's always good to have a plan. :)
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 7,472
    Too bad you had to explain it to them. Your first post went right over their heads!!

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

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