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High End Luxury Cars



  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Great post!

    No the last words on the above paragraph are not there in error. In the past Audi has never tried to out-Bling their more ostentatious and conventional competitors like BMW, MB and Lexus. In fact Audi's understated image is one reason why I think Audis are far more successful overseas. People living beyond our shores are less concerned about image than us North Americans. (MB sold luxury for decades in Europe while every street there is covered with MB taxis). Just imagine what would happen to MB and Lexus sales if every other taxi is a Benz or Lexus in North America?


  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Ok Dewey you got off another good one. Lets just face it, no other luxury brand provides the spread of product that Mercedes and BMW does. Arguably Mercedes offers too much for their own good as they seem to have every imaginable niche plugged with something. BMW is right behind them, but they still lack a true CL, SL, GL competitors. Mercedes on the other hand will build a X3 competitor in 2008 and so it goes on and on between the two of them.

    Audi and Lexus are getting closer to being full lineup providers or plan to, but Acura and Infiniti won't be there for years and years, if they're even planning to do so.

  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I'm hoping that the new LS 460 seats are a lot better than the ones I tried in my two 2005 LS 430 test drives.

    IMO they are. The old LS430's seats were like sitting on a padded park bench, good leather but absolutely no support.

  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Limited regional success is now exclusivity? You are really reaching! Gotta give ya credit for that. But be realistic . . .

    Don't you just love it when slow sales are called "exclusivity""?

  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Don't you just love it when slow sales are called "exclusivity""?

    That makes the Q45 one of the most exclusive luxury cars in the world. Somebody call Infiniti!
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    Audi's sell poor here? And the line is forming for 2 years for these demented, unreliable, unusable, failures of cars? That's interesting that you say that as the A4 is still outselling the IS, the car that was supposed to be the dominator in this class. Cheap prices can't get you out of this one.

    And now for the facts (through Sep. 2006):

    G35 Sedan US sales in 2006: 26,802

    Audi A/S4 US sales in 2006: 28,167

    Lexus IS US sales in 2006: 41,666

    BMW 325i/325xi/330i US Sales in 2006: 60,724

    So the IS sedan not only outsells the cheaper A4, easily, it also outsells vaunted G35 sedan!

    Now back to your regularly scheduled postings, soon to be corrected, in the Passionate Pursuit of Perfection. :)

    Source: Autochannel

  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    You're falling on your own sword here Doc.

    Not really. The GL is excellent! :) I forgot about that one, but I wasn't counting AMG cars, as that's a very small class to beat for comparison. What are they, in a class of two?

    The 3.5 in the GS will boost sales enough to stay ahead of the M, even though it's dynamics are more pleasant than fierce.

    Not sure where I "copped out", but you seem to have made my point for me. The LS430 is the most unlikely of enthusiast's magazine champions, but it's inherent excellence wins out in the end. :)

    You seem to be under the impression that I said somewhere that every Lexus is better than every Mercedes, which is an error on your part. Unless you have evidence to the contrary? :confuse:

  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I forgot about that one, but I wasn't counting AMG cars, as that's a very small class to beat for comparison. What are they, in a class of two?

    Nope, there are Maseratis, Aston-Martins, Motorsport BMWs, S/RS Audis and R Jaguars to contend with. Now if you're going to say that some comparos count and others don't then.... AMGs are Mercedes too.

    Not sure where I "copped out", but you seem to have made my point for me. The LS430 is the most unlikely of enthusiast's magazine champions, but it's inherent excellence wins out in the end.

    No your point hasn't been made, nor did you really have one. You gave an excuse about certain Lexuses not being made for journalists or enthusiast and that being why certain Lexus models never win comparos, like the SC430. I said that this notion is disproven a thousand times over if Lexus' dullest, most boring car (the LS430) can win comparos in the eyes of these very same journalist. The fact that Lexus' dullest car wins while their more exciting ones don't shoots down any point you could have even tried to make about comparos.

    Like I said before you go back and forth from comparos to sales to make a point, one minute comparos are the most important thing and the next they aren't.

    Reverting back to how good the car is a change of argument mid-stream doc.

  • "So the IS sedan not only outsells the cheaper A4, easily, it also outsells vaunted G35 sedan!"

    A quote from the Edmunds review of the 2007 G35. "Last year, Infiniti sold 121,000 vehicles, 55,000 of which wore the G35 badge."

    Automotive News used to allow non subscribers to view the sales charts but no longer does so I can't check it. Before they cut off access I looked it up and the G35 was second in sales only to the BMW 3-series. California makes up about half of BMW's sales. The G35 out sells the BMW in the rest of the country.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    Good to hear. My back will appreciate it.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251
    see. Then your earlier statement of "owning for 13 years" without any problem was just wee bit misleading

    I've owned a single BMW323i for 8 years. A great car that had spared me a lot of heartbreak in terms of its low maintenance costs after warranty.

    Am I the single happy long-term BMW owner in this universe?

    Nope! I know other BMW owners personally and my experience is confirmed by various reliability surveys. Overall BMWs reliability is not stellar but they are certainly not below average.

    BTW, with the heavily subsidized lease deals on BMW's nowadays,

    BMW or MB does not monopolize the industry for good lease deals or discounts. I can assure you there are plenty of individuals that got great lease/discount deals at various Japanese luxury dealerships.

    When the new BMW 7 series will be introduced you are going to have a heck of a time in terms of getting a good lease deal. At intro the days that a 7 series will sit at dealers lots will be very low in fact probably lower than what is currently observed with the new 335i:

    The average 335i spends a mere eight days on a dealer's lot before selling, according to the Power Information Network The only rival model that's anywhere close is the Lexus IS 350, which spends an average of 20 days on the lot before selling.

    The quote above is from a somewhat positive review of the BMW335i which is linked below:

  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251
    California makes up about half of BMW's sales. The G35 out sells the BMW in the rest of the country.

    I've never felt so Californian in my whole life.
    Although that still does not qualify me to vote for or against Schwartzenegger.
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    The warranty is 5yrs or 50k miles . . . that's 3yrs of driving for a lot of people. Warranty only covers parts and labor, not the time wasted or consequences of unexpected service outage. The last part is what makes me balk at purchasing unreliable cars. I don't mind spending some time taking it to the shop at time of my choosing, but sudden service outage is a risk that I can not afford to take. More than half the time when I drive, I'm actually expected at the destination; clients who are paying thousands of dollars for me to be there . . . folks that I can not afford to upset with an unreliable car.

    BTW, ever had a light bulb outage on those leased BMW? Besides the hassle of small things like the light bulbs, I had a transmission failure and a Motronic computer failure, both leaving me stranded, when I had my BMW's. That was during a phase of my life when my punctuality was not all that important.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251
    My personal experiences contradict your personal experiences with owning BMWs.

    Statistically surveys do not show BMWs as being below average in terms of reliability.

    Please refer to Kirstie's recent post. You can alway google and find horror stories about any marque. No marque is perfect in terms of reliability and that is why Lexus is still relentlessly pursuing it.
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    A car model that sells 60k copies a year, even with 59k turning out to be complete lemons, would still have 1k satisfied owners. 1k is much more than "a lot," which is 20 ;-) That's the problem with anecdotal positive experience. Bad experience has to be the exception/minority in this day and age for any brand . . . the question is how "exceptional" is it for a particular brand . . . i.e. how many sigma's is the buyer/leaser willing to tolerate.

    335i has been on the market for only a few weeks, whereas IS350 has been on the market for a model year. I'm already seeing 328 coupe being offered at very heavily subsidized lease deals.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251
    The S600 has never been beaten by anything, not the Rolls Phantom, BMW 760Li or anything else.

    Definitely I cant think of a more worthy car than the new MB S600 in being crowned the benchmark HELM sedan.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251
    You are the only person I know who thinks BMW invented the lease deal :confuse:

    There are some pretty good discount deals on Lexuses. But that does not make Lexus the inventor of good discount deals.

    REALITY: Most luxury models especially when they're dated have good lease or discount deals. (BMW or non-BMWs)
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251
    That's the problem with anecdotal positive experience

    My anecdotal evidience is backed up by Consumers Report. BMWs overall are not horrible lemons as you are trying to imply. Dont mix up your past BMWs with the general population of BMWs.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251
    No offense to you Audi fans but this has to be one of the most knuckleheaded ads I've ever seen:
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    Those kind of worries are a thing of the past with most BMW models.
    BMW's quality has noticeably improved over the last several years.
    The only BMW car that CR doesn't have at average reliability or better at this time is the BMW 7 Series.

    I drive a lot and I can't remember over the last, say 3 years, seeing any vehicle stuck on the side of any road. The average reliability of all vehicles is extraordinary compared to about 10 years ago. The only ones over there are usually those fire engine red sedans being checked out by ol' smokey and his "money pad."

    Leasing works for me not only because I avoid potential maintenance headaches, but also because I enjoy driving a new vehicle as often as I can. I love cars, but because I am not Jerry Seinfeld or Reggie Jackson, both of whom have many cars, I can at least change the one I do have every couple of years.

    Maybe the one year lease will be created just for me. I would pounce on that!
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    I don't know, Dewey. I have never seen a good leasing deal on a Lexus from Lexus. They keep the residuals frustratingly low.
    Even some Lexus salespeople direct their customers to leasing companies or banks outside of Lexus that offer better leasing deals than Lexus does.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    The Q45 may just well be the most exclusive vehicle ever made! :)
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251
    You can get some pretty darn good purchase deals on various Lexuses at least in my neighborhood.
    BMW is better with lease deals while Lexus is better with purchase deals.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    I agree with you that Lexus gives you better deals if you buy rather than lease.
    I wasn't talking about Lexus purchase deals.
    They discourage leasing through their artificially low residuals.
    If I ever decide to change my behavior one day and actually purchase for the long term (5-10 years), it would probably be a Lexus vehicle like the LS. But not at this time.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    And that's why I bought one!
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    You may want to find a more credible source with the correct info.

    See Doc, you can't believe everything that you see, hear, or prescribe, maybe not even YOUR on postings.

    The A4 has sold 36k units at the time of this writing, compared to a paltry 32k units for the beleagured IS.

    And the G35 is outselling it too!

    Now basing your logic on 5 YEAR OLD can't comparos can't get your foot out of your mouth on this one ;)
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    "The LS is for the U.S. only. It's called exclusivity!!"

    Up until now, I've stood back and let you ponder around about the greatness of this brand. But now the gloves come off.

    After all that, you can't tell me what the "most exclusive" car in the USA possesses over it's "valueless" peers?

    Furthermore, how is being the most selling car in it's class being exclusive? Just because it's not in other countries, doesn't mean it's more valuable than the Taj Mahal! Oh, and newsflash, the car is sold in other countries, Japan for one, but it flunks miserably there. I guess it's not exclusive enough.....
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    IMHO, it's not Lexus artificially keeping residuals low, but the Europeans artificially inflating the residuals. I don't know of anyone who keeps their BMW's or MB's at the end of a lease (aside from those being forced into it due to mileage penalty otherwise).
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 7,478
    The good doctor gave his source and I notice that you neglected to do so. Please post your source if you want to be credible.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 7,478
    You took your gloves off just to throw cream pies? Puleeaasssee. That rhetoric jibber-jabber doesn't even deserve a come back.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

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