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High End Luxury Cars



  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Welcome back, fellow left-coaster.

    Weren't you on a quest for a Boxster or something to that effect?

  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    What cross-overs are these ? Are you sure you were not inside an Infiniti shop ? And Lexus SUV is really all RXs... Lexus make finite amounts of GX and even more finite LXs. Lexus' bread_and_butter are the LS, RX and ES. Those are what pays the bills... And there are no cross-overs among the crop.

    Uh, the RX is a crossover. It basically invented the luxury crossover category. Sure technically the ML320 was first, but as it was body-on-frame, it wasn't really a crossover. The RX takes the ES platform, raises it up, adds AWD and a hatch. Thats the definition of crossover.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 7,475
    There certainly is no continuing concensus about the LS brakes being dangerous, not even an isolated event like BMW. Just the continual harping about the LS brakes being grabby.

    This comes mainly from inexperienced drivers who don't have the know how to adjust to different driving characteristics form one car to another. :shades:

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • so maybe the LS isn't as reliable as some have suggested if some old fart auto journalist can ruin brakes :sick:

    Dude, just put responsibility where it's due. You do Lexus no favors by suckling them on your breast.
  • It's certainly possible that the brakes were bad when the car was delivered; it's equally possible that the brakes went bad during the joy rides before the testing. Brakes are wear items. If you have been to weekend races and autocrosses, you'd know that, any set of brakes on any brand can be ruined in a couple afternoons of hot use.

    BTW, personal attacks really do not bolster anyone's argument.
  • Very much in agreement. High residual and low interest rate are common methods of lowering margins without affecting the nominal "sale" price. I'm not trying to advocate leasing here, just pointing out that leasing and financing are common ways for manufacturers to concede margin without directly offering cash discount. There is no way a $77k MSRP luxury sedan that usually sells for $71k or so can possibly auction for $48k after three years. What BMW (and MB too) count on is future sales growth (which means continued stream of bogus inflated "sale" numbers coming in the front door) to cover for the lease return write-downs at the back end. That's how the game of vendor financing is typically played, in a lot of industries. The music stops when sales volume stagnates; whoever is in charge when that happens is screwed; until then, it's bonus for all for "revenue growth" ;-)
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    There certainly is no continuing concensus about the LS brakes being dangerous

    Your use of the word "dangerous" can be dangerous. ;)

    So, let's stay on track. There are two seperate issues here.

    1. The grabby nature of LS brakes... lots of concensus.
    2. The LS stopping distance... numerous conflicting reports... more information is required, but question still remains.

  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    There are two seperate issues here.

    1. The grabby nature of LS brakes... lots of concensus.
    2. The LS stopping distance... numerous conflicting reports... more information is required, but question still remains.

    Keep in mind that some of the reviews that you base your conclusion on, including C&D if I recall, were based on pre-production cars. I suggest giving more weight to those reviews that used production versions.
  • ctsangctsang Posts: 237
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 7,475
    You are the one that is off track. I thought we were talking about the dangerous nature of BMW brakes. You know, the ones that spin you out of control.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    Time to move on.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
  • I got my issue of Car&Driver today. They love an Audi for once as they gave great kudos to the R8.

    Some hilarity as they called ALMS an Audi company picnic due to Audi's complete domination.

    Interestingly enough, they liked the steering. The big knock on Audi's is that they lack feel, but this time they said it was great unless you need feedback at 7.6 on the richtor scale

    I really think Audi is going to be "the" major luxury car maker by 2015. I'm calling my shot now.
  • anthonypanthonyp Posts: 1,860
    I find the modulation problem to be as you stated on the bmw, but the Audi doesn`t have it...I further find the breaks are not grabby or any other negative thing on either the Audi or bmw...All of the lexus cars I have owned had adequate breaks although they did have to replace the 430 breaks as they scorched up for some reason....The Toyota `short` seems to be working out after today....Tony
  • Briteness, OK, we're in agreement that when the employees set the pricing, not the owners, bad things can happen when the music stops because their interests differ, e.g, quick wins vs. long term success. BUT, lets not exaggerate: do you really think you can get 10% off MSRP on a HELC? While I understand the idea of hold backs, isn't the gross margin around 6% for M/B/BMW, etc?

    Speaking of discounts on HELC, here is a new one. An area Jag dealer was offered a good deal on a quartet of new XK drop heads IF the factory could "burn in" the service date when they were shipped. Everybody made out: Jag got to move four cars, the territory man hit is numbers, and the dealer got a price break. Oh, I forgot. The customer gets a significantly shorter warranty. Kind of like J P Morgan's response when asked where the customer's yachts were docked: "The customers don't have yachts. WE do."
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    So Tony, it seems you have driven a BMW recently?
    I know you expressed interest in the 545/550.

    Good to know the A8's braking doesn't have that annoying little jerk at the end. I will get around to driving one within the next 12 months.

    Heh! Heh! The "short" would have worked on plenty of stuff today!
    Got hurt by my "longs." :sick:
    As always, given time and patience, this will just be another small blip in the major trend which is onward and upward.

    Keep the faith everybody! :)
  • Glad we agree on the gist of the discussion. I don't believe I was exaggerating. Buying a $77k MSRP at $71k is not 10% off, but 7.8% off. The invoice price for 750i is only $69k, and BMWNA published European Delivery price for 750i is only $69,750; I'm not entirely sure how much more negotiation room is there in the ED program. In any case, $71k is quite feasible based on these numbers.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Weren't you on a quest for a Boxster or something to that effect?

    Yup.. I was back in Dec trying to decide b/w a 330i convertible and a Boxster (I spelled it correct, right ?) And after much back_and_forth, I didn't pull the trigger afterall... Friends convinced me the Boxster repair bill is lengthier than a GM vehicle :sick: And as a Lexican, you can understand how feeble-hearted I can be for unreliable automobile, right ? :P

    Good thing is that my 14yo would turn 15 this summer, and wants a Civic next January (@ 15.5yo). So the plan may be to get rid of the Trix, get her a Civic and use that opportunity to buy me a sportie wheel. Since I have given up buying a Boxster, now I got thinking about an e46 M3 instead. Seems to fit the spouse's criteria. My wife won't hear about a 2-seater car.. but will tolerate a coupe with rear seats... Don't ask me why . So I figured, why not an M3 instead of its distant cousin, a 330ci...
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I thought Boxsters were supposed to be pretty reliable? I suppose there's always the S2000, which is as reliable as the Sun. Clarkson mentioned that it was #1 again on Top Gear's owner survey, compared to the Z4 which placed in the 60s, and the Boxster which placed in the 40s. The worst cars were once again all French.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Oac... modern Porsches still cost more than average to maintain but they are said to be reliable. I've had no issues. I don't think you've had a midlife crises yet. You will rationalize it differently when that happens. ;-)

    I don't have my receipts in front of me but in 3 years I think I spent around $2500 on routine maintenance... oil, brake bleed, tires, 15K service. I am approaching the 30K service and this will cost about $1200. So yeah, $3700 in comparison to zero on my 3 3/4 year old BMW is money you kiss goodbye.

    The M3 is a nice compromise. I'll believe it when I hear about it. ;-)
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Thanks for the update. FWIW, my experience with my previous Boxster was mostly very good with only one exception. That single exception would have cost me a few grand if it hadn't been for extended warranty coverage. However, it is fair to point out that it was not a common incident according to the guys in the shop.

    That said, an M3 sounds like a very good choice for you and the wife, as would be the Civic for your teenager.

    I hope it all works out as planned. Like D-man, I'll believe it when it actually happens. :)

  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251
    So I figured, why not an M3 instead of its distant cousin, a 330ci...

    So you want to buy a reliable car and what do you end up wanting to buy? A BMW M3!

    A reliable M3? Says who?

    Consumers Report? No confirmation about M3 reliability
    JD Powers? No confirmation about M3 reliability.

    I myself have no experiences owning a M series but I can confirm to you one experience that I did have. Every BMW dealership I have visited so far has a big board with Parts Prices. And on every board there is an asterisk below with a statement claiming that the parts prices above are not applicable for M Series models. I asked a services rep. why M Series prices are not listed on the board and with a grin the services rep. said "those prices would scare off all potential M series buyers".

    Even if in the unlikely scenario happens of owning a reliable M3 it will still be expensive to maintain.

    Anyways good luck with your decison.
  • anthonypanthonyp Posts: 1,860
    H---Remember my wife owns the 530x (stationwagon, and it may be 535) so I drove it when I returned the Honda, which is fun to drive as it is so simple....Truly I do think the versatile and different cars -expensive to less expensive- for a change is a good practice as you really notice the differences over a few days...Other than the interior quality, I don`t think you will find a car that is more to your liking than the BMW...For me the interior is worth the change...Tony ps a little better today in market--not much
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    I enjoy renting small, cheap cars at the airport when I travel.
    Many of them handle quite well at the expense of inferior seats and cheap plastic, of course.

    I'm a bit tired of the BMW interiors-pretty much the same across the line-the wood strip gets a bit wider as you go from the 3 to the 5 to the X5 and 7. That's about it. LOL!

    Audi is predicting record sales. I do believe their time has finally come in the USA.

    The selling may not be over. One more scary downturn to shake out some of the "weak money." Try to ignore it. :)
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I'm a bit tired of the BMW interiors-pretty much the same across the line-the wood strip gets a bit wider as you go from the 3 to the 5 to the X5 and 7. That's about it. LOL!

    Well, its pretty much always been that way. The last 3, 5, and 7 also had the same interior in small, medium, and large. It seems like Audi is moving in that direction as well, as the A6, Q7 and A5 are almost identical on the inside.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    I'll see. I've yet to drive an Audi vehicle. I enjoyed sitting in the A8 at the auto show. The driver's seat was quite comfortable and the interior was first class compared to the 7 Series and my 545.

    Indignity of indignities: My wife who knows nothing about cars and cares about them even less, pointed out to some folks we were shuttling to a restaurant in the BMW that the wood in my 545 was actually phony plastic! When I begged to differ, she broke out in hysterical laughter!
    What a revoltin' development that was!!! :(
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    Well, real hard wood is only $200 a cord :-) How much is a cord? More than the EPA passenger volume for a large sedan, stacked solid with wood.

    I have always wondered how thin the wood applique has to be in order to avoid blasting the occupants with wood splinters like a shot gun in case of an accident ;-)
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    Agree. I wouldn't consider M3 for reliability either. For weekend fun car, yes :-) From what I hear, E46 M3 engine tend not to last very long in the hands of someone who does not drive with care, especiall before it is fully warmed up. That makes buying a lease return a questionable proposition.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    Yes. When you get into M territory, one is really talking about a weekend toy for the lucky few, much like a 911, I guess. Both vehicles entirely wasted here IMO with US driving restrictions.
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