The real value of "old" cars?

isellhondas

Well, the '60 Bonneville has hit 9700.00 with 8 hours left and the Safari has hit 26.600!

The reserve hasn't been met! I wonder what the seller thinks it's worth??

I think he should drop his reserve and grab the money some idiot is bidding!

Mr_Shiftright

I just can't see the money for that Safari. I'd comp it against other well-optioned higher end GM wagons.

I don't know if the '60 Bonnie would make the 12K I suggested, but it'll be around there--maybe those rust patches are in fact worth a $2K discount.

omarman

If you *really* had a car that there were only 5 of, I couldn't possibly duplicate it for chump change, could I?

Hold on there chief. Chrysler built a bazillion E bodies including convertibles. But in 1971 only a few of those Cuda verts were Hemi 4-speeds and trade in the neighborhood of $2 mil. Less than 10% of that crazy zip code buys the clone version, and yes, the documentation in your face is everything! edited to add: At least for now.

What happens when high rollers lose their appetite for matching numbers on Detroit iron? I'd rather be the guy who last sold the Hemi Cuda than the winning bidder!

cccompson

Desirable optional equipment that is rare enhances value. Undesirable optional equipment that is rare does not. The 2 barrel carb GTO falls into the latter category. IIRC, it also came with a high (numerically low) rear-end, possibly a 2.41. Olds did the same thing with the 442 via a "Turnpike Cruiser" option.

I once had a '67 GTO that may have been 1 of 1 as far as options were concerned. It was equipped with buckets, a column automatic, wheel covers, posi, and a non-pushbutton AM radio. It's rarity didn't make it any more valuable!

I'd say to evaluate your prospective purchase using whatever yardstick you can to establish value and then deduct about 15%, maybe more. If it truly is otherwise optioned out and rust-free, it's worth buying in spite of the 2 barrel.

rtrib

Thats the honest opinion I've been looking for, I think I'm going to go for it. Thank you

andre1969

I just looked in my old car book, and it shows that '67 GTO with the 400-2bbl as having 255 hp. That sucker must have been really choked down. In comparison, the "standard" 400-2bbl, as used in a Catalina, had 290 hp, although the Catalina offered, as a credit option, a de-tuned 2-bbl with 265 hp that could run on low-octane fuel. The "regular" 400-4bbl had 325 hp, while the GTO's slightly hotter 4-bbl had 335.

I wonder, on a car like this 2-bbl GTO, would this be one rare instance where modifying it from stock would boost its value? For instance, would upgrading it to the 335 hp setup, or better yet, the 360 hp setup (maybe that was the Tri-Power?), make the car more valuable? Or would it hurt it, because it's no longer original?

isellhondas

Hard to say. You would probably have to change the cam and pistons too and who knows what else.

I wouldn't buy it just...well...because.

A GTO shouldn't be a gelding and it's a shame they built them. Why not just buy a Le Mans instead?

Mr_Shiftright

These options are by no means equivalent, not even close. The Hemi engine adds 100%+ to value, maybe 200%, perhaps 400% (depending on the car).....the tri-power adds 20%.

Furthermore the Hemi cars have all kinds of other modifications that go with the Hemi engine (both mechanical and cosmetic)----the tri-power is pretty much just a bolt-on to an otherwise stock car.

Last of all, the cars numbers and data plate reflect the Hemi option.

omarman

Haha! Obviously something lost in message board communication, sorry bout that.

No, I'm not comparing Hemi power to Poncho power. It was...factory-built Hemi Cuda vs. Hemi clone in my comparison.

Both Cuda examples are rotisserie built, better than new from Detroit. Both of them put together with gen-u-ine Mopar Hemi goodness. Neither car looking at all like the closed-shop orphans pushed out of the assembly line 40 years ago.

Which one trades for more? The one with matching numbers and build sheet provenance of course. Which one is best? Let's take 'em to the track, drive the stink out of both and see which one goes faster! Sounds like fun, no?

My comments were in response to your post: If you *really* had a car that there were only 5 of, I couldn't possibly duplicate it for chump change, could I? Epic FAIL on "only 5 made"

Ya can't duplicate anything in today's market without the numbers matching, documenting, etc. That's just "cloning." And as seen on these boards and reflected in the hammer results at auction, when clones are pitted against documented cars for high bids, clones FAIL!

I only used the Hemi Cuda comparison to illustrate just how big and truly "epic" the fail can get!

Still, there was a time when Detroit iron was not valued to absurd levels based on data plate info and matching numbers. I think it's very likely that perspective will come back around.

Mr_Shiftright

Sorry for the mis-read of your post, and thanks for clarifying what you were trying to insert in my sometimes thick head.

I find the entire "Church of Matching Numbers" pretty amusing, as the acolytes debate the Sacred Numbers on what is essentially a Dodge taxi cab, made in enormous numbers, with a rather special engine installed----vs. say, collectors of Ferraris and other limited production exotica who really are not terribly concerned with matching numbers, since race car engines were *expected* to blow up, and hence don't vastly diminish value. Even more amusing, the Ferrari factory would be happy to MAKE you an original engine and STAMP it with original numbers and this also does not trouble many vintage Ferrari buyers---or should I say, doesn't trouble the "market value" too much.

And really, using words like "provenance" with Pontiac station wagons is bordering on satire.

Go figure?? :confuse:

omarman

Oh, I know what you mean. The market does put a lot of value on documentation but surely nobody confuses Detroit iron with fine art, right?

Then I found this earnest prelude to decoding a 1970 Hemi Cuda on a blog dedicated to vintage cars and car culture:

"The numbers associated with a vehicle are really its true name and identification. They prove that the vehicle is really what it purports to be....Take a quick example: Which is more valuable? A genuine Vincent van Gogh painting or a print that looks just like the real thing?"

It's like the blogger is offering, "Self Portrait With Plymouth." A bit too much isn't it?

Mr_Shiftright

I'm sure that in Van Gogh's day they made some very handsome farm tools but comparing a Plymouth Cuda to fine art is a bit of a stretch indeed.

I suppose if Van Gogh made a few thousand copies of "Starry Night", then yeah.

I do appreciate the use of "numbers" to avoid counterfeit products but date-coding the alternator brackets is bordering on satire.

isellhondas

I'm lucky to live where I do!

Today was 55 -57 Chevys and they were out in force. I couldn't believe how many Nomads there are around here!

There was a beautifully restored 1956 Chevy Cameo Pickup for sale. I don't think it could have been any nicer.

40,000!

What do you guys think of that?

Mr_Shiftright

$40K seems to be pushing the envelope of the market but if it were nicely restored, and well-restored, and authentically restored (three big IFs), it could bring $35K. These are the Mt. Everest of Chevrolet pickups.

fintail

I saw a red and white 57 Nomad in Overlake area this afternoon

isellhondas

I poked around a bit and it seems that 40K is about what people are asking for these. I've seen so many that I didn't realize how few were made.

I've always wondered why they even bothered to make these. They just seemed to be too nice to abuse as a pickup truck.

This one was about as nice as it could have been.

Mr_Shiftright

$40K in today's market is kinda optimistic, but you don't know until you put it out there.

Some people, even if they are car collectors, are kinda dummies when it comes to marketing their cars successfully---a truck like this needs to be sold in the right way to the right audience, if you want top dollar. This does not mean hanging a "For Sale" sign on it and sitting on a lawn chair.

parm

I equate the Chey Cameo to the Cadillac Escalade (pickup) and the Lincoln Blackwood. About the only thing hauled around in the back of these are golf clubs.

In looking at recent sale prices of Cameos on Mecum's website, I'd say Shifty is right. While a precious few sold for $40K+, the majority have sold between mid-20's to mid-30's. A pretty nice one just sold this past weekend at Mecum's Monterey gathering for $24K - before buyer's premium.

Cool vehicle, though. I'd love to have one.

cadillacmike

Not into muscle cars (try driving one on a 500+ mile drive in the summer, and you'll find out why), and I'm really not one to put credence into the whole numbers matching BS on muscle cars, but I do know for certain that my 68DVC has all the ORIGINAL cast iron and transmission body. And other than the drivers door it's sheet metal is original. I need to get it back from the resto shop. I've been missing it.

isellhondas

What the heck is a 68DVC??

andre1969

My guess is a '68 DeVille convertible? I think my favorite acronym is the one for the Toyota Camry Hybrid. TCH. Isn't that the chemical in marijuana that gets you high? :surprise:

fintail

That's THC...not that I would know :shades:

isellhondas

Yeah, you're probably right. It would a be a lot easier if people didn't use acronyms that are difficult to figure out!

garv214

That was my guess as well...especially since the poster was CadillacMike...

omarman

I can't help staring. But I am not from Michigan.

euphonium

Cemetary & Recycling Center Next Right

is a sign on WA's 101 coast highway

isellhondas

For some strange reason, our son is determined that he and I take on a project and he loves strange British cars.

Does anyone know anything about an Austin like this?

Shttp://seattle.craigslist.org/see/cto/1921293916.htmlhifty?

" There once was a man from Boston who drove a little Austin......."

Oops, can't get the link to post. If you go to Craigslist and click on Seattle and type in Austin, you'll see it. It's a 1957 and it's the strangest car I've seen in a long time. He's done some upgrades that I know nothing about and I'm hoping someone else does. It's the one near the bottom in Federal Way.

Mr_Shiftright

Looks like a fun project --an Austin A35 for those who can't figure out how to open the link:

Try this:

http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/cto/1921293916.html

Looks like the vehicle has been modified with more modern MG parts, which is okay because it won't ever be worth anything anyway, and you can at least GET many MG parts.

Personally, I'd rather see you two involve yourself in restoring a pre-75 MG Midget or even a Morris Minor, but if this is what turns the kid on, then by all means have a go. Too bad you can't drive it first--that's a caveat. I hope he isn't planning on going on modern freeways.

isellhondas

Thanks, Joe for fixing my link.

So that's what he's done. Used more modern MG parts. I didn't know what a "ribcage" transmission was or some of the other things he talked about.

Is it ever butt ugly! Unique though.

I tried to fit in a midget once and I didn't. I'm average sized just under 6 feet tall but it just didn't work.

fintail

I think it's cool. No less of a noney pit than a normal old car, but unique.

I like the Austin Devon too, so there might be something wrong with me.

isellhondas

Yeah, pretty cool since it's so wierd looking.

I wonder if it's six or 12 volt and if it's metric or (gasp) British Standard or (even worse) Wentworth?

Three speed on the column or a four speed?

euphonium

What other motor cars turn him on?

Mr_Shiftright

The "rib cage" refers to the better version of the 4 speed transmission one might find in a Midget or a Morris Minor---the older (earlier) transmission wasn't strong enough (coupled usually to the earliest 948cc engine).

The ideal combo would be the rib cage with the 1275cc Sprite engine--you might actually get out of your own way in that case; otherwise, a buzzy 55 mph is about it unless you're kinda crazy.

He must have a newer engine/trans in there because there was no MG Midget or Sprite in 1957.

whoosierdaddy

I lived in England for a year about 20 years ago and saw a lot of really unusual-looking old British cars running around. Minis of all ages everywhere, old Austins, MG TC & TD's that were daily drivers. Their climate does not see the extremes we do, winter or summer (no road salt), so old cars are well-preserved.

omarman

No less of a noney pit than a normal old car, but unique.

Not to be a typo/nitpicking reply: Did you intend to say that "it's no less a money pit than an old domestic car, but possibly more?"

I was comparing the parts sourcing and resto work performed by the mechanic on Andre's DeSoto and LeMans vert. What project car doesn't get a mechanic's touch to handle some of the needs?

The Austin is +50 y/o british tin with numerous "adaptations." If dad/son get in over their head with it, would most mechanics even touch a project like that?

The host noted that due to bad brakes, the buyer will not get a test drive before the sale. No offense to the seller, but who knows what shape any car is in if you can't drive it before you buy it? I know it's not a lotta money but, it has been posted before that some projects are too expensive even when they are free. :sick:

Mr_Shiftright

And getting any missing trim parts on this Austin will be extremely difficult, as will glass, lenses, etc.

I'm sure a British car mechanic would be quite at home with the car, however. They are really quite simple to work on, presuming you are not fighting rust, missing parts, and weeks on jackstands because of no parts available. (like I'm not sure where you're going to get a rebuild kit for the master cylinder).

To use a comparison, it's much easier to restore a 1930 Ford than a 1930 Chevy, or, to extend the comparison, to restore a 1957 MG rather than a 1957 Austin, or a 1955 Chevy rather than a 1955 Studebaker.

isellhondas

I'm pretty good at listening to an engine so test driving it wouldn't be a big deal for me. I'm also pretty good at asking the right questions about how the transmission and rear end sound and other things. I've spent a lot of years doing this.

I once bought a used Miata without driving it. It was in the garage and pouring rain. I asked the seller a few questions, determined he was telling me the truth and I bought it. everything was fine.

I would never attempt to restore a car like this. It would never be worth doing such a thing. Maybe just a Sunday driver once in awhile just to be different.

And, I doubt if it's in our future unless I can steal it.

isellhondas

The rebuild kit is available through a number of sources but I'm gueesing that it's probably been rebuilt several times before and it may need to be replaced.

I do have to wonder why the guy doesn't just fix the brakes instead of making excuses and having a non drivable car.

I think he's just sick of it.

fintail

Yeah, I meant money pit of course. Pretty much any old car is a money pit if you really do everything.

I think you can find a mechanic for anything if you have enough money.

fintail

Whatever it is, it will be the most difficult standard and probably with Lucas electrics to boot.

I think they were a 4 speed.

Mr_Shiftright

You can have the master cylinder bore re-sleeved if it's too pitted, so that's fixable even if it's ruined inside.

I would certainly creep around in 1st gear as these are non-syncho 1st gear transmission and usually first gear is not sounding too good.

mariajim

I was comparing the parts sourcing and resto work performed by the mechanic on Andre's DeSoto and LeMans vert. What project car doesn't get a mechanic's touch to handle some of the needs?

The Austin is +50 y/o british tin with numerous "adaptations." If dad/son get in over their head with it, would most mechanics even touch a project like that?

Thanks

Maria Jim
Motorcycle Jackets Manufacturers

isellhondas

I've been exchanging emails with the Austin seller and I can tell he's really a decent upfront guy.

I guess he was thinking that our son is 16 and this was to be his first car. Our son is 30 but he didn't know that. He tried very hard to talk me out of it.

First of all, it's a right hand drive which kills it for me.

He said it does run quite well but it's a handful to drive. He said it leans and wallows through corners. He said it has primitive turn signals with a switch in the center of the dash and they are non cancelling like an MG I once owned.

He said the windows don't have winders and they have to be opened manually. It has a very low ratio rear end and although it could drive on the freeway he would never attempt this. It has a Morris Minor engine that he says runs very well.

He cited a couple of clubs and said that parts have never been a problem.

Sounds like a very nice guy who is just tired of this old Austin.

Anyone?

fintail

All depends on what your son can deal with I guess. It would have to be a sunny Sunday putt around town car.

With the inop brakes, I'd be making him an offer a bit lower than his asking price. No brakes, non working windows, RHD, probably some missing unobtanium (in NA) trim pieces , all work against the rarity and awkward coolness. It's approaching project car hell eligibility.

Mr_Shiftright

Picture yourself in a RHD car of this type trying to pass someone on a 2-lane road!!! :surprise:

fintail

I don't know of any 4 wheeled vehicles that thing could pass :shades:

But think of how easy it is to parallel park!

isellhondas

The windows do open and close but they slide from side to side I think rather than wind up and down.

isellhondas

I was just thinking.

Me, in an Auto Parts store...

" I need a water pump"

" Sure, what kind of a car?"

Well, it's a 1957 Austin but I think it has a Morris Minor engine in it"

" What, exactly is an Austin and what is a Morris Minor?"

Fumbling through catalog pages.....

" Oh, I do see a Morris Minor...what year is the engine?"

" I'm not sure"

" Well, what size is the engine?"

" I think it's around 1000 cc but I'm not sure"

" You'll have to pull off that water pump and we will have to send it to England to see if our NAPA partner over there can match it up"

He switched the mechanical rear brakes (!!??) and put in hydralics but out of WHAT??

I think this would be like stirring in a pile of you know what. The more you stir, the worse it stinks!

Hey Fintail, how about you? Just a few miles away from us!

isellhondas

Have any of you ever ridden as a passenger in the front seat of a RHD car?

I had the most HARROWING ride of my life when I was very young. It was an old VW Bug on the freeways of Los Angeles.

No seat belts, semis on boths sides of us.

Everyone should try that one time!

Mr_Shiftright

Usually if I appraise a car and it has RHD, and IF that car were available as a LHD, I deduct about 30% of the value. If they never came as LHD, like say the MG TC, then there's no penalty.