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Buick Rainier, Chevy TrailBlazer, GMC Envoy



  • scottc454scottc454 Posts: 356
    What is it about this forest that is preventing some from seeing the trees?

    You tell us. You're the one that can see the simple economics here. If they didn't have to waste all their money paying overpaid babies ridiculous wages and benefits, they could spend that money improving the quality of their vehicles. They would sell a lot more if they could shed their poor quality reputation. How can you expect them to compete with all these other plants that use non-UAW workers?

    I'm not advocating sweat shops, but the UAW is ridiculous. It's like a parasite that is killing its host.
  • tidestertidester Posts: 10,059
    ... we should get back to discussing the vehicle per the topic heading and leave the philosophical/politcal/economic discussions for another venue.

    tidester, host
  • gmoudygmoudy Posts: 67
    You and I both got a good TB. Mine is also a 2002 LS model. I guess you and I got the ones made on a Wednesday. :D
  • tblazedtblazed Posts: 945
    Me three. If someone stole or totaled my '02 LS tomorrow I would buy another one.

    If a manufacturer sells 10 times the number of vehicles with the same defect rate, you will have 10 times the number of unhappy people, and some will post on Edmunds. You can't fairly judge quality and customer satisfaction simply by the number of messages posted without considering the number of vehicles sold.
  • ficussficuss Posts: 541
    "What is it about this forest that is preventing some from seeing the trees? '
    ficuss 4-19-05

    "They would sell a lot more if they could shed their poor quality reputation."
    scottc454 4-20-05

  • missouri2missouri2 Posts: 41
    i have had a 2003and a 2004 bravada and now i have a 2005 buick rainier, i average miles 50,000 a year. and all of these suv's have done a great job. they are fully loaded. and have very few problems. i guess as you would say i bought the right ones. my wife would not drive any thing else other then my 2004 cts. :)
  • jr222jr222 Posts: 15
    I've had my 03 Bravada for 2 years and 35k mis and it is one of the most satisfying vehicles I've ever owned (and I've had a bunch). True, I complained bitterly about a shuddering in the AWD system until GM finally developed a fix which involved a PCM update and replacement of something called an "encoder motor." Other than that I've really had no problems. Next year I might even look at replacing it with a Ranier (unless I get a bigger boat in which case I'll have to move up to a Tahoe, etc.).

  • eddenniseddennis Posts: 4
    Could you please share with me some of the steps you took to reduce/resolve wind noise.

  • scottc454scottc454 Posts: 356
    You have posted my quote out of context. You must think there's not a cost involved in tightening quality control. It's a catch-22.

    No worries - you'll be whining on the Mitsubishi forum soon enough. The under/over in Vegas is 2 weeks. Bwa ha ha ha ha!
  • imadad2imadad2 Posts: 79
    Depending on what year your SUV is, there could be several sources of wind noise. The first is the side mirrors. I believe 2003 and prior models have this issue. If you do a search, you can find a solution to the problem. It is a matter of taking the mirror apart and putting tape in it. I have a 2004, so I don't have the exact information for this fix.

    Next, the seals with the door and the top of the roof create a wind noise. Buying some weather stripping and placing that under neath the stripping on the SUV helps eliminate the noise.

    Next, I am not sure what they are called, but there are plastic inserts you can buy that guy into the top part of your windows. This helps eliminate wind noise as well.

    Finally, moving your roof rack bars behind the "B" pillar on the SUV or removing them all together helps reduce wind noise that they make.

    I had problems with me door seals, and once I put in the weather stripping, my wind noise reduced greatly. It sounded like a window or door was not closed all the way.

    Hope that helps.
  • imadad2imadad2 Posts: 79
    ficuss. I agree with you on a lot of what you are saying. I disagree with you on the premise that Mitsu makes a better vehicle. I had a Chrysler Labaron that had a Mitsu engine, and I hated every minute I owned that car. It was not the car itself, but the engine. My cousin bought a Mitsu. After a couple years, the thing fell apart around him. So, Mitsu and Chrysler have been scratched of my list of companies I can trust.

    That leaves Chevrolet and Ford. I try to buy American when ever I can, but most Japenese cars are now made in the United States. I have owned only one Ford. It drove well, but seemed cheaply put together and I never felt safe driving it. My mother owned a couple Fords and they did a good job for her. Chevrolet however, seems to be the "Lucky" brand for my family. My Dad drove a van and pickup into the ground. Both he and I drove seperate Nova's to near 200,000 miles. We did the same thing with the Caprice we each owned.

    I also own a 2000 Prizm, and yes I know it hasd Toyota stuff, but the car has been great to own. My trunk lid broke on it, but besides normal wear, it is one of the most reliable vehicles I have ever owned. My TB has had similar luck. After a year, no problems except wind noise. If I had test driven the truck over 55 mph I would have known the issue before leaving the lot. I still would have bought it. The price was just to good. I hope five years from now I will still be signing GM's praises.

    The problem I have with GM is this. Their customer service is very poor. I should not have to wait almost two months to have wind noise issues looked at. I have read other persons writing about similar stuff happening to them trying to get warrantied repairs done. Speaking of warranty, why doesn't GM give you a 5 year 60,000 mile warranty? I see Kia, and Hyundai offering better warranties, and I get intrigued about buying their vehicles. Most vehicles are financed for 5 years, so why not up the warranty? I think this would help GM sales. Finally, quality. Those who are not loyal to the brand, jump ship as soon as they can. Toyota, Honda, Nissan, and other companies are stealing away business because they have a reputable quality. GM does not.

    If GM cannot find a way to bring a new vehicle to the market without needing two or three years to work out the hiccups, they will continue to lose business. I do not like to buy a new model in it's first year(s) of production. Why? Because the vehicle could be crap. I want to hear what others say. Chevrolet loses a lot of sales by word of mouth. I think the TB is a great vehicle. However, a lot of people that bought the first couple years of it's introduction are complaining here, scarring off business.

    I have read a lot about the Honda Pilot and it's shortcomings. Honda has a good rep on quality. I will not buy this SUV, because of what I have read. It is scary to think a lot of people feel the same way I do. A friend of mine had the transmission drop out of the bottom of her 2001 Honda minivan. I would never buy a new one if that happened to me, but she shrugged it off and bought the same model in a 2005. GM owners don't do that. ficuss, you did not do that. Who is to say you just got a lemon, and a new one would have zero problems.

    I know people who will never buy a Ford. I know people who will only buy a GM (I am one of them) and I know people that will only buy Japanese brands. GM needs to hit a home run with some model they have coming out. If they don't, GM will become a lot smaller player in the automotive world.
  • ficussficuss Posts: 541
    I agree with most if not all of what you said. The only thing incorrect is my jumping off of G.M.'s ship after 1 failure. My most recent G.M. product prior to my 2002 TB LTZ was a 2001 Trailblazer. Bought it brand new from a dealer, no G.M. plans, no employee or supplier discount etc. Just plain old financing. It was my 2nd SUV type of car the first being a 98 Jeep Cherokee. Gave a good Jeep to my son and bought the 01 TB. I had to have the TB towed in 3 times in 3 months. I must have really forgotten maintenance and developed bad driving habits for that to happen. Things like wires becoming lodged under 2 pieces of metal under the hood and shorting out. Or like not being able to shift out of park because a wire shorted controlling the sellonoid that releases the park mechanism. I forget the third towing incident, but 3 strikes was enough for me to trade in the 01. The 02 looked so much better and was soo much more powerful, I couldn't resist. I didn't jump ship, I bought the 02 LTZ. So I did give the general a chance. I had owned several G.M. products before, a 68 Olds Supreme, a 74 or so Cutlass Ciera a 78 Olds 98 Regency, and a Pontiac Grand Prix all were good cars. I have owned Ford cars and full size vans, still have 2 vans. I have 1 Chevy Astro Van which is just fine. I've had a Honda Accord a Nissan Maxima and a Mitsu. Diamante. All were good cars. The 01 and 02 TB's have for the time being soured my taste for G.M. products. I said I had hoped the Mitsu. Endeavor will be better than the TB was, it should be, the bar wasn't set very high.
    What we are talking about here is ownership experience, good or bad. My experience with Chevy Trailblazers has been bad.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 11,024
    A reporter is hoping to speak with anyone who recently discussed a trade-in at a Chevrolet, Buick, Pontiac, GMC, Saturn, Saab, Hummer, or Cadillac dealership. Please respond to by Tuesday, April 26, 2005 with your daytime contact info and any brief comments you care to share about your experience.


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    Share your vehicle reviews

  • sabotagesabotage Posts: 15
    Anyone ever install one or had one on their trailblazer??? Or know anyone who did?? bad or good??? I have a cold air intake and an exhaust on my 04 tb, just want a little low end kick because of having the ext cab.. Thanks
  • 01_hoe01_hoe Posts: 273
    I don't and won't personally, due to the negatives I have read on some forums. I am instead waiting for a "tuner" to develop a change to the PCM that is more custom in nature. What little the Jet chip does on this engine is too off the shelf for my needs. I am talking the I-6 engine here. The V-8 has so much more possibilities. GM should make it an option in the GMT360's al la Rainier. With the long development time, I am thinking the 4.2L I-6 engine is not tuner friendly. Hope I am wrong.
  • I have recently purchased a used 03 envoy xl st and noticed a ticking noise. I checked the oil and it was low by 2 quarts. I brought it in and they said the noise was a shroud and that they moved it.

    I have been putting about 2 quarts of oil in per week. It is not dripping. I brought it in again and they said I have poor compression in all 6 cylinders.

    The dealer said that GM agreed to pay half the cost of replacing the motor, (V6 4200), and the total cost is $7800, my half is $3900.
    Does this seem like a lot of money?

    Has anyone else had a similar problem. I did not buy a extended warranty, and the dealer keeps reminding me of this.

    Also, does anyone know of a recall or have info that would help me persuade the dealer to help me out more.

    Thanks, Alex
  • $3900 sounds like you are paying for the whole thing....
  • sabotagesabotage Posts: 15
    Sorry gang, but where can I find just the turnsignal part, is there such thing??? is it just a attachment you can buy?? or do you have to buy the whole thing???
  • 01_hoe01_hoe Posts: 273
    I agree with above post, sounds like you are paying all at $3900. Why no warranty, even if over 36K miles dealer usually gives some kind of short term warranty. I'd call GM customer service myself and open a case. They might help.

    You sure it is an '03 and not one of the '02's that had the problems?
  • The envoy had 63k on it when i bought it. it came with a 30 day / 1000 mile warranty, and i declined to purchase an extended warranty, wish i would have though. I did call customer service, they did a 20 minute investigation, literally, they called the dealership while i was on hold, and told me they could not help me.

    I have tried to find the number to the local zone office to get a hold of the area zone rep, but they wont give it to me for "security purposes", and the manager of the dealership will not return any calls either. :mad:

    I asked the service manager why the engine replacement cost so much, he told me his cost from GM for the 4200 is $5200, and the rest is labor. He said the front drive shaft runs through the motor, and they have to drop the drive shaft to remove the motor, so there is a lot of labor involved. I don't know enough to know if he's full of it, but it does seem expensive.

    Thanks for your reply.

  • 01_hoe01_hoe Posts: 273
    Unless you live in a very high cost of living area, I think these prices are out of line. Hopefully you got the Envoy at a great price due to the high mileage on it. I looked on gmpartsdirect for a cost from them for an engine, but it was not listed. Are you able to drive the vehicle? How about trading it for something else? Might consider a used engine, but may get another problem. Do you have any other Envoy dealers in the area you could get a second quote from? Also a Chevrolet dealer could also do repairs sometimes cheaper, but they aren't going to do a 50/50 on this. I would push GMC customer service more. You said they could not help, are they also saying they will not help? Ask to talk to a supervisor at GMC customer service. Also, ask to see the General Manager personally, don't rely on the phone they will dodge you all day long. Does your state have a lemon law on used vehicles? Tell the dealership you will contact Better Business Bureau if not satisfied.
    The front axle goes thru the oil pan, but should not require that much more labor.
    You are 100% sure this is a 2003? What was the build date? It will be on the drivers door on a sticker, unless someone removed it.
  • twinrottstwinrotts Posts: 161
    Decided to do the install myself and save a $100 on install fees.
    The front bushings went in no problem, but I ran into a major issue working on the back. I was able to detatch the end link off the passenger side but could not get the nut off the drivers side. I did get it 75% or more off but things froze up toward the end. I soaked it with WD-40 and built a make shift extension for my open end wrench to get some more leverage but still no luck. I put some heat to it and melted out what was either lock tight or a plastic insert that is used to make a lock nut. I ended up spinning the 6mm allen wrench in the end link bolt. Was a new Craftsman wrench but the corners are now showing signs of rounding. Not sure if I destroyed the end link or not but I'll have my local mech deal with it on Monday.
    Did think about removing the end link from its other connect point but figured it was pointless as I likely still would not be able to remove the end from the sway bar.
    BTW: Once I decided to give up the farm I tried to tighten it back up. Was able to get the A wrench to hold but could not budge the nut. I'm wondering if my heat trick melted and refroze some remaining tighener sealing my fate??? Passenger side went together OK so I have one side tight and the other side floating. I am assuming it is not a safety issue driving it to the shop.
    Oh well, I get an "A" for effort and a D- for execution.
    If you are wondering why not an "F", I'm taking some credit for the front.
    Seems that every time I try to remove fasteners on this truck I can break them loose ok but they just never seem to get easy to spin until they are just about out.
    Are they designed this way to prevent becoming loose, or are they treated with locktite when installed? :sick: :cry:
  • twinrottstwinrotts Posts: 161
    I took advantage of a Group Buy a couple of years ago for WAAG front, rear bumper, and tail light guards.
    After having these on the truck for 2 years and 2 north east winters, I must say I am rather disappointed in how they are NOT holding up.
    Lots of finish failures both rust through and chipping. Problem is not isolated to the front where you might expect it, but the rear components as well.
    They look so poor that I removed them today and brought them to my local autobody shop for a bead blast and repaint. They are going to be painted in a material that has some texture and is typically used as a chip guard paint on the bottom of cars.
    The rear is especially gross on the bar ends where the caps are inserted. I never expected this type performance as WAAG taughts the advantages of their powder coad finish on both interior and exterior surface. Add the that the dozens of coats of Zaino I put on.
    I shared feedback with them today just to let them know how their products are doing in th real world.
    I did ask them to mail me some replacement tape to reattach the tail guards to the lens
  • Thanks for the info. I can drive the envoy, but i have to add about 2 quarts of oil a week. I have thought about trading it in, but i would feel bad for the next owner, and i would probably lose a bunch of money. The title says its a 2003, and I looked at the sticker on the drivers door, the only date on it is in the upper right hand corner, is says 08/02

    Not sure what exactly that means.

    Thanks again, Alex
  • 01_hoe01_hoe Posts: 273
    08/02 means that it was produced in August of 2002. Could very well be an '03, as my '03 was produced about the same time (08-03).
    I would be hesitant to drop $4 large in an engine, just from the stanpoint that the vehicle has so many miles on it. There are other things that may go wrong, and just could be a start of an expensive situation. Might try to trade a couple of places, just to get some numbers for comparison. Perhaps the next owner will buy an extended warranty and get it fixed. Doubt if someone is losing sleep because they traded in the vehicle you now have.
  • twinrottstwinrotts Posts: 161
    tblazed - I live in western NY with long winters with lots of salt used,
    You can almost hear your vehicle rust.
    I likely do not help things either by garaging the vehicle. Seems I read somewhere that you are really better off leaving a vehicle outside where it stays colder as that will retard the corrosive factors in play. I'm just too lazy to brush snow and scrape ice at 0530 each day.
    I guess I pay in the end
  • dmathews3dmathews3 Posts: 1,739
    Why feel bad about the next owner, I'd peddle it in a heartbeat. I would think you wouldn't lose anymore than the 4K that you are planning on for the new engine and still have a high mileage vehicle. Me I'd either buy a cheaper new vehicle or one with a good warranty, and I don't mean one of the fly by night extended warranties you get from a dealer. They try to get out of any repairs they can. On yours, I would bet they would say it was a pre-excisting condition and wouldn't have paid for it anyway. :lemon:
  • dsr9dsr9 Posts: 6
    bobed, i have to agree with a lot of what you said. just to add to your posting, the reliability of a vehicle will also depend on the buyer's pre-inspection and test drive. For example, how many people open all doors, carefully inspect all joints/seams, and look under the hood to verify the quality of the assembly? (if you don't know how to do this, bring someone who does). when you test drive the car, do you have the radio on? ( you should leave it off - the radio is the last thing to worry about on a test drive). How many miles do people get to test-drive? Just around the block? I test drove my 03 TB for 9 miles - in all conditions except off road. Did you test-drive the actual vehicle you ended up buying? These are questions all buyers should consider when purchasing a vehicle.
  • ficussficuss Posts: 541
    "the reliability of a vehicle will also depend on the buyer's pre-inspection and test drive."
    Possibly for used cars but,
    Aren't we talking about buying new cars ? What test driving technique do you know of that would have predicted the types of problems the tripletts have had. The only accurate indicator of performance of a new car is ownership. Nothing that happens during a short or long test drive of a new car could predict future component failure.
  • imadad2imadad2 Posts: 79
    This just helps hammer my point on GM home. You bought a 01 and 02 model. I feel the TB is not a decent truck until the 04 model year. I have had my problems as well. Wind noise, and a shorted circuit for my turn signals. However, it has not soured me on this truck. GM however, has turned customers opinions sour by selling a vehicle that does not have all the kinks worked out. The Tahoe and the Suburban win awards all the time for quality. The TB just won an award in the Philippines. The truck produced today (2005 model) is a quality vehicle. I would never suggest anyone buy a TB that is from 2000 - 2003. It is a shame, because now they have lost you as a customer, and won't win you back unless they can sell you a quality product at a low price. Chances are, you will like you Mitsu and won't be back. That is what is wrong with GM. They allow vehicles with problems to be sold, and work out the problems over years instead of getting all this cleaned up before they introduce it. I am waiting to see how the "HHR" does when introduced. I want one, but like I said, the first few years scare me when buying a new line of vehicle from GM. On another note, over 2 million vehicles were recalled for seatbelts. What's next? GM, I hate to say it, is in trouble.
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