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Buick Rainier, Chevy TrailBlazer, GMC Envoy



  • burdawgburdawg Posts: 1,524
    On a TB you don't have to remove the grille, but you do have to remove the trim bar that goes across the front and protrudes over the headlights. It's held on with spring clips and it just pulls off. Otherwise changing the bulbs is the same as an Envoy.
  • jay_24jay_24 Posts: 536
    Look at sales numbers for July 2005.

    Mitsubishi sold 1,600 Endevors
    Honda sold over 14,000 Pilots
    Chevy sold 29,000 Trailblazers
    GMC sold 15,000 Envoys

    Both Envoy and TBs are seeling very close to last years numbers. (about 150,000 TB's in 6 months).

    First it seems gas prices don't scare us too much. Tahoe, Yukon, and Yukon XL sales are about the same as last year. Suburban sales are down slightly.

    Second, if the quality is that bad how can you sell that many of them? There are roughy more Envoys sold in a month and Mitsu. Endevors in a whole year.
  • I had some dummy lights come on and they couldn't figure out why. I drove the car to the dealer while the lights were on and the diagnostic computer reported no errors. They shut the car off and restarted it and miraculously the lights stayed on (they usually went off after a restart... Its amazing they stayed for the service dept).. again, no errors. They attempted a few things and finally bought the car back. The light that came on were the ABS, service 4x4, and brake light. The lights were on but ABS, ebrake, and 4x4 worked just fine. It was a gremlin somewhere.
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  • malibu99malibu99 Posts: 305
    Hmm if you are talking about replacing the bulbs there is no need to remove the center bar. The bulbs are easy to replace by reaching behind the head light assembly and prying off the ruber covers behing each bulb, twist the socket and replace the bulb. If you are replacing the whole assembly then yes you would have to remove the center bar.
  • Guys, if not the GMC, what non-minivan car would you suggest to compete with teh Honda Pilot? Does anyone have MPG information and prices? Along with room in the interrior. I sat in a Pilot and although it is repulsive it was very wide and seemed roomy. Are there GM or Ford products that compete with this combination?

    Thanks. :D
  • ficussficuss Posts: 541
    Simple, give everyone an employee discount and make a lot less profit. Let's see what the sales figures are like next year when no-one is willing to give up a relatively new car with a very low trade in value.

    As far as the numbers game goes, GM has a much larger dealer network to sell the tripletts. I live near a Mitsubishi dealership. I see Endeavors everywhere . People like how they look and perform. I know I can't tow as much as a TB, but it is not an issue. Ownership experience is the most important measurement with a car.
    Someone recently stated that only complainers post here. If the same is true for Endeavors and Pilots and others, then we should see a proportionate number of posts on the other boards.
    As long as we're "doing the numbers"
    As of this writing, Endeavor (problems and solutions) has 134 posts. Tripletts have 17,169. If Chevy TB sales are about 60% of triplett sales, 10,200 posts are about TB's. Throw out MY many posts, both positive and negative. That's a nearly 90 to 1 ratio of complaints TB's to Endeavors.
    Like you said, numbers don't lie.
  • gmfangmfan Posts: 188
    Yes, it is probably your problem. I had mine serviced a few months ago as well and mine was a two pints overfilled. I noticed it was shifting differently, especially from a stop, it "sluggish". I took mine back to the tranny shop, they confirmed it was overfilled, and they extracted a 2 pints with a pump with no problem. No harm, and the vehicle drives great again. Measuring transmission fluid can be tricky, so I would take it back and ask them to confirm they are okay with the fluid. Do not be accusational to them because they will get defensive. I would say first thing early morning would be the best time before their day gets crazy. Good luck,

  • hardhawkhardhawk Posts: 702
    I would check out the new Ford Freestyle that is a crossover built on the Volvo chassis shared with the Ford 500. It is very roomy and has bunches of utility. Engine is not overly powerful, though. If you will do any heavier hauling or towing, I'd wait for a new 2006 Envoy that will have displacement on demand which should improve the V-8 mileage over a similar 2005 model. The new Chevy HHR is rather bold, yet very practical. I personally really like the look of the Chevy Equinox and Pontiac is coming out with its version this fall. We replaced our Chrysler minivan with a new Dodge Magnum RT with the Hemi V8. It is a rocket yet also serves us well as a family hauler too. The Magnum also comes in a V6 that gets upper 20's on the highway, which beats the 24 I get in the V8 Magnum. We keep the Envoy for towing and foul weather, which is easy because me really like it. There are so many neat vehicles out there these days when compared to 5 or 10 years ago. I must admit that I would never have believed that I would actually want to own a Dodge station wagon, but when it has the utility, looks and performance it has, I have to say I love it as much as the Envoy. It's a great time to be alive and a car fan.
  • burdawgburdawg Posts: 1,524
    I tried that.The right side (intake air box) had barely enough clearance to get my hand in and I was concerned I would damage the wiring or socket trying to get it off. It only takes a few seconds to take the grille bar off, so I thought it was a safer method. Left side should be easy though.
  • morey000morey000 Posts: 384
    The Endeavor is a nice looking vehicle, and it drives truly wonderfully. It doesn't have the truck capabilities of the triplets (really quintuplits now), nor many of the available features and accessories- although Mits did a real nice job with this one. It would be on my consideration list, if it weren't for the really truly ugly center console and lack of available Nav. (I admit- there's no accounting for taste and I hope others enjoy the look)

    The fact that the TB has been around twice as long as the Endeavor may have somethign to do with the complaint number difference. The fact that ficuss is on this list may also have something else to do with the numbers, as so many responses here are counterpointing his posts. There may also be a sociographic difference between TB buyers and Endeavor buyers. One may be much more likely to participate in web forums on their automobiles. There would be a strong social correlation between how enthusiastic they are with their purchase and their interest in participating in on-line forums. If the typical purchaser of an Endeavor sees their vehicle as more utilitarian rather than have a passion for it, they would be less likely to participate here- for instance. The more complex a vehicle, the more likely there will be problems- this is almost a complete truism. A good example of this would be the Touareg. A fiercly complex (and magnificent) vehicle with mediocre reliability. But most of the things that go wrong with it, other cars don't even have! (If it only had the TB's 4.2L V6).
  • ficussficuss Posts: 541
    "The more complex a vehicle, the more likely there will be problems- this is almost a complete truism"
    You couldn't be more accurate if you tried. The big difference between a proven complex design and the Tripletts is that the reliable complex design is de-bugged before it is thrust upon the public. The Tripletts could have instilled driving passion in me as well as many others were it not for the never ending barrage of service problems. The endless recalls and tsb's. From the VERY beginning with major suspension failures until now with the cooling fans the Tripletts have cooled those passions.
    You're correct, the Tripletts have been around 2 more years than the Endeavors, and this will account for many of the posts. Responses to my posts have generated many replies, some have agreed some haven't. This is the point of having a discussion, to get feedback. We are not a bunch of lemmings. I am 55 years old and the TB had been the worst car I have ever owned to date. My parents 1959 Rambler was more reliable. As far as being more or less utilitarian, I don't get it. Is the TB more utilitarian with it's towing capability and truck like characteristics or is the Endeavor more utilitarian because of its' more car like ride and comfort?
    Finally, what good are technology and gizmos when you are on the back of a flatbed tow truck.
  • rainersrainers Posts: 50
    Just replaced mine last night.

    You must first remove the entire front grill filler panel. This is the horizontal front wrap around that goes from the center of one headlight lens to the center of the other headlight lens. This part unsnaps at ten locations. Four on the top, two on each side under the top part of the headlight lens's, and two on the bottom edge. After removing the grill, find two pull up tabs on the top surface of the lens containing the burnt out bulb. One is under the fender lip and the other is along the top of the lens toward the radiator. Lift the two pull tabs. Now you can remove the lens enough so you can pry open the approx. 3 inch cover behind the bad bulb. Twist the bulb socket counterclockwise, remove bulb and socket from lens, and remove wiring plug from socket. It's not hard to do, it just takes some figuring out the first time. As a rule I don't like to force open anything, but these snaps are just as the name implies, a snap.
  • gmfangmfan Posts: 188
    Here is a link the Endeavor is being recalled :surprise:,1413,310~32290~2745020,00.html

    "Mitsubishi Motors Corp. is recalling 65,436 Endeavor sport utility vehicles because the parking brake may not work correctly.

    The recall affects Endeavors from the 2004 and 2005 model years. NHTSA said a nut in the braking system may not be tightened properly, so the vehicle could roll if it is parked on a slope and the transmission isn't in "park.""

    Looks like recalls affect all vehicles on the road.
  • dmathews3dmathews3 Posts: 1,739
    WHAT! the great Mitsubishi Motors Corp is having a recall. Oh my god, holy Trail Blazer. I thought that was the greatest vehicle ever produces, at least that is what I heard here. :lemon: :lemon: :P :P
  • imadad2imadad2 Posts: 79
    I was always told growing up to never buy a Chevrolet in the first three years of production. GM, IMO, works out the bugs in their vehicles in the first few years of production instead of doing it in pre-production. Almost all of these complaints come from 2002 & 2003 model years. The Endeavor is a newer vehicle, so comparing the number of posts complaining on the vehicle is like comparing apples to oranges. It just can't be done.

    ficuss, just happened to have bad luck with his TB's. I have always had bad luck with Chrysler products. Does that mean they are a horrible company? No, it just means it is not in the cards for me to buy from them. I love my TB. Yes, I have had a tail light recall and the fan clutch might be an issue to, but my dealer has been great and very co-operative with repairs. If I had the choice between any SUV and my 2004 TB, the Toyota Sequoia would be the only winner. That is only because I like the looks of it better as does my wife. I don't care what you tell me about quality. If the vehicle is not appealing, I am not going to buy it. I love the TB.

    A lot of these posts are extreme as well for complaints. Some people expect these SUV's to drive like sports cars, and they are not designed to do that. It is a family vehicle and towing machine. Plain and simple. It might not be the best off road vehicle out there, it may have wind noise, and it may have a few quirks, but the triplets are for the soccer Moms who haul their kids to and from school. Every vehicle has issues. You could name any car or truck or SUV, and I could find someone complaining about it on the web.

    This forum lets me learn about items that might be issues on my vehicle. I want to know about them, so I can get them repaired before my warranty ends. So far, there has been only two issues that stand out for me. The tail lights, which have a recall, and the fan clutch for the A/C. The latter issue seems to have been resolved by the TSB that has been posted here. Yea, it sucks for those out of warranty, but for me, this board is a God send.

    I am a Chevrolet (GM) loyalist. My family has had way to many good cars from them to not be. So, if you are coming here to pimp some other SUV and tout that the TB sucks, I disagree. I do agree that the TB had issues, but the majority of those are fixed. I'd put my 2004 EXT against any SUV from the same year, and let's see which vehicle last longer. My money is on my Chevy.
  • Outside temp sensor; Mine went bad as well...showing 50d. I saw this post and decided to get one and replace it. I called the local dealer on part price (always amazed at how pricing can vary dealer to dealer), and I tried to get a little addtnl info on replacing the part...but apparently they were 'too busy' to take 2 min to give me any other info.
    Facing the engine bay from the front, is it located left, middle, or right ? Is any 'special tool' needed for bolts or screws in the removal/replacement process (you mention about removing sheet metal??) Thanks much.
  • imadad2imadad2 Posts: 79
    Just for kicks, I read some of the posts on the Endeavor forum. Since 1/05 the following has been discussed.

    Warm Air from vents (Sound familiar?)
    Radiator leak after only 300 miles
    Lift gate issue
    Gear Oil leak/Powertrain noise
    Wind Noise (Sound familiar?)

    Mitsu vehicles have their problems to. You should always read up on a vehicle before buying it. I always hesitate to buy a first or second year model, because there is no feedback from consumers out there as to how the vehicle performs and what issues it has. My advice is to check out as many vehicle forums as you can before buying any car/truck/suv. It will help you make a sound decision on what you may or may not be getting yourself into.
  • ficussficuss Posts: 541
    Thanks for repeating what I said at post 5529
  • wholtzwholtz Posts: 2
    No special tools needed, quarter inch drive sockets will do. On the Envoy there is a couple of snap in fasteners and without looking about 4 quarter inch screws. Remove the sheet metal in front, top of the radiator and the sensor is right behind the hood latch. You will see some wires going to it. The sensor and it's holder snap into a recess hole. It is not the easiest to see and remove, but if you study it some you will figure out how to remove and replace.
  • dshepherd3dshepherd3 Posts: 194
    I have replaced 2 sets of bulbs in my 202 TB, never removed the grille took about 10 minutes total for both. To add to fuel about the TB's overall issues, the recalls and numerous tsb's for sure are more than most avg new vehicles, but for 60k it has driven reliably, handled great with the Hotchkiss kit , pulled my boat and gets 17.5 to 20.5 mpg. All this said, there have been more than the expected issues in the 1st 3yrs of ownership and this is from a retired Cadillac factory employee.
  • gam2gam2 Posts: 316
    This is by far the most expensive vehicle I have owned. It's also by far the most
    troublesome. I expected more. Way more. Maybe I'm in the minority, but it will leave a bad taste in my mouth for years. I can't expect those of you with good ones to understand because yours are relatively trouble free. A 2 year old vehicle should not be rusting. The sway bar links should last more than 24K miles. The clutch fan shouldn't take 3+ years to figure out. Tail/brake lights and turn signals
    were perfected many years ago. No complaints about the engine/tranny though.
    Like I said, I expected more.

    Of course people with problems will dominate this board. they are looking for solutions. Those w/o problems have no reason to post in most cases. Unless you want "Like, omygod, I drove the kids to the park last night. It was raining. Good thing I had 4 wheel drive or I would have been in the ditch for sure! This truck makes me feel so secure that I could answer my cell phone and dish out Cokes to the kids at the same time!"

  • walk4walk4 Posts: 9
    I have 2002 TB LS with 44K miles. In last few weeks I had few times DTC P0305 (cylinder 5 misfire) and MIL with 40 to 70% load in close loop. I changed the spark plugs and the ignition coil . Added 2 times Techron cleaner to fuel tank. No help. Yesterday I got 2 DTC codes first P0305 and 2nd P0171. I researched forums and GM tech link.
    I had professionally fuel injection cleaning 8K miles ago and I changed air and fuel filters at that time.
    The P0171 would suggest the MAF sensor dirty or manifold leak. Also it is possible that the O2 sensor is getting bad.
    However I think it is the injector that got dirty or sticky (rust?).
    Checking fuel pressure and injectors balancing would be the next step. I read about it but never done it.
    Any suggestions what else I could do?
    Has anyone had similar problems and if so how they were fixed?
  • sbcookesbcooke Posts: 2,297
    A friend of mine is interested in getting one of these. All I could say was run experience/knowledge regarding the triplets was from the original build where they had all those recalls etc.

    Did I give bad advice? Has GM turned it around with these vehicles? Would advising someone to go ahead with getting one of these vs. say a 4runner be bad advice?

    Thanks in advance...
  • imadad2imadad2 Posts: 79
    JD Power rated the Envoy in the top three for quality. I think that says something right there. The TB rated high as well. I believe the 2002 & 2003 model years of the triplets had issues. GM, IMO, has worked a lot of the bugs out. No one can argue that the 6 cylinder engine they put in these is one of the best built engines ever. The drivetrain is good, and the vehicle looks awesome, especially the Denali. It should be cheaper than the 4Runner, but I would have your friend drive both. The 4Runner is a quality SUV and there is no denying it, but to tell someone to run away from the triplets, I think that is bad advice. Just my 2 cents.
  • dshepherd3dshepherd3 Posts: 194
    Do you feel the misfire/roughness? 171 points to excess o2 in the exh stream to the point the pcm cannot compensate for it in the lt fuel trim. If you have eliminated ign misfire, sounds like an injector. Low fuel pressure to the point of misfire would reduce overall power and most likely set a random misfire code as all cylinders would be affected. If possible you could move inj. 5 to another cyl. see if the misfire code moves.
  • tblazedtblazed Posts: 945
    There is no "MAF" on these with the 4.2 I6- they use a computer algorithm to calculate air density from the intake air temperature sensor. Seems like if an injector ( or spark plug or coil) was not working it would have a very bad vibration with one cylinder not firing. I have read of several that have had to replace the O2 sensor ahead of the cat converter. Seems those get fouled sometimes before 44k miles. As far as swapping around injectors, too much has to be disassembled to make that practical including removing the intake manifold, PCM, and other stuff in the way to get the fuel rail assembly with the 6 injectors out.
  • dshepherd3dshepherd3 Posts: 194
    He has to to something here to pin down the problem, every thing you point out is true. Usually the o2 would set a seperate defined code. Anyway, if he could get a bi directional scanner he could do an injector balance test, this may help point him to the problem or away from the injectors based on the results. Tough to help out here in the online environment, not hands on.
  • walk4walk4 Posts: 9
    Thanks tblazed and dshepherd3 for your replay. There are good suggestions.
    There is no MAF in the TB. Today I got again the MIL with P0305.
    It is happening when the engine is warming during my first 2 minutes of driving.
    My O2 sensor was replaced at 34K.
    Getting those infectors is not few minutes job and if I would decide to do it I will have all of them clean and check (rebalance).
    GM in last few years is advertising 3 step maintenance induction cleaning and I read few paragraphs on cleaning with GM top engine cleaner that supposed to be very effective.
    Today I tried to test the resistance on the injector harness connector, but I could not get conclusive reading on my analog device - have to buy digital.
    Today I tried to get my engine rpm pass 4000 with shift lever set in park and I could not do it. I think this possibly could indicate O2 problems.
    It looks like I would have to got to the basic – test the resistance on the injector harness connector, fuel pressure, Multec 2 injectors balance and O2 sensor. I’ve never done it before but there is always someday a first time.
    Would anybody have a suggestions or comments regarding my problem.
  • 01_hoe01_hoe Posts: 273
    Had an '03 Envoy SLT SWB. Now have an '05 Denali SWB. Great truck. Good power, handles great, no regrets or problems. Have had 6 Toyotas previously (all cars) and some were better than others.
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