VSC sudden activation. 2004 Toyota Sienna.
Has anyone ever experienced a sudden activation of the VSC system while driving under normal conditions? I was driving 65 mph on the highway going straight on dry pavement and suddenly a buzzer sounded, the VSC light came on, and the steering wheel and brakes were taken over by the VSC system and the car started weaving out of control. I could not steer or break the car. The car stayed on the road but weaved out of my lane, then the buzzer and light went off and I was able to pull off to the break down lane. My children and I were clearly in a life threatening situation. It happened again as I slowly got off the highway where I parked the car and had it towed to a Toyota dealership.
I am told by Toyota that the steering angle sensor needs to be replaced for $700.00. Still, I am terrified to drive the car.
I am told by Toyota that the steering angle sensor needs to be replaced for $700.00. Still, I am terrified to drive the car.
5
Comments
I think this is an "all or nothing" scenario, in other words, it would either work or fail completely, as you experienced.
To be safe, ask the dealer to test it in situations where the ABS and VSC would have to activate, i.e. skidding scenarios.
Glad to hear you were OK.
Codes may have have informed the dealer as to which sensor had failed but I'm guessing not and the dealer chose the more profitable one.
If you're driving along at reasonably fast pace and the yaw sensor is not indicating lateral, sideways, "turning" movement then the stearing wheel rotational position sensor can be safety "recalibrated" to zero, null, centered.
So if the stearing wheel position sensor somehow became "out of calibration it would soon be re-calibrated.
The Yaw sensor is hard mounted to the floor of the car somewhere near the "rotational", turning center. Let's say the sensor mount is loose, or the chip itself is loose in its mount and a good hard bump in the roadbed might move it askew and VSC activates as a result.
Might it return to its original "mounted' position...?
Maybe.
I pulled up a Toyota Technical Service Bulletin online for the 2004 Sienna and Highlander that indicates that Toyota was aware that the steering angle sensor was causing "some customers to experience an intermittent VSC activation accompanied by the VSC light and buzzer". They changed the sensor February 2005 in all vehicles produced after that date.
So, my read is that Toyota knew that this could happen to my vehicle, did not recall it or inform me about it, and put my family in danger. Am I right?? In addition, there are lots of other families driving around in a 2004 Sienna that don't know that this could happen, and their lives could be in danger. Not to be overdramatic, but it was really, really scary and could have caused a major accident.
The factory instruction to the dealer service personel is that the customer should NOT be informed of a TSB unless the customer first states a complaint which is covered by a TSB. Very few, if any, TSB's are valid outside of the warrantly period.
The result of the above instruction is that dealer personel do not bother to read or review TSB's.
So yes, Toyota quite willingly and knowingly put you and your family at risk.
Under the circumstances I wouldn't worry about the yaw sensor.
Are you sure of that..? I don't know of any VSC activaton mode, nor of any TC(TDC) mode, that would actively interfer, in any substantive way, with either braking or stearing.
VSC activation functions are such that although disconcerting you should be able to easily maintain control of the vehicle.
If VSC engages inadvertently in "plowing", understearing mode, it will instantly dethrottle the engine and apply moderated (ABS "pulsing") braking to both rear wheels.
If VSC inadvertently activates in over-stearing mode, thinks the rear is trying to outrun the front, it will instantly dethrottle the engine and apply moderated braking to the proper front wheel.
But IMMHO if this were to occur inadvertently on a low-traction, icy, road surface it would be, potentially, a life-threatening circumstance/experience.
I could not slam on the brakes on the highway, but if I was going slower, could I have overode the fact that the pedal was going in and out on its own?
What you were feeling on the stearing wheel would probably be comparable to fairly serious torque stear, nothing an average person couldn't overcome with a firm grip. Same with the brake pedal, it would have felt as if ABS were activated. VSC would rarely use firm braking, if ever. What you felt on the brake pedal was "moderated" braking using an on and off pulsing mode such as happens with ABS activation.
As long as VSC was inadvertently activated it would continue to modulate the brakes, but that would not mean full braking force wouldn't be available if you attempted to make use of them in that manner.
These are questions that really should be asked of the technical advisor at your Lexus dealer.
They did not end up charging me the $700 and I filed a complaint!
I am glad you are okay, that is the main thing.
And to back up what the other person prior to this said... it does, actually, feel like it cannot be controlled. Now, it could be my panic taking over because the car is fighting me for control, but I found it nearly impossible to drive when the issue was happening, so AAA had to tow me in when it initially happened. This time, my husband is going to try and drive it there.
You are right, it does feel like it's out of control. I found letting the van sit for a few hours "reset" the issue and I was able to drive it to Toyota without it happening.
Oh, and please be sure to call the 800 toyota number and provide all your information. They are tracking this issue in their system and I was told if enough people have the same problem it could turn into a recall. And if that happens I would be re-imbursed what it cost me to fix it.
Engine dethrottling and rear braking (slow this sucker DOWN) if the system defaults (on failure) to understeering recovery/correction. If it defaults into oversteering recovery/correction mode you still get engine dethrottling but braking ONLY on ONE front wheel.
Obviously this latter scenerio could prove to be the more dangerous.
You can remove the ABS pumpmotor fuse to disable TC, VSC, etc, but that alos disables ABS.
Link
I now own a VW with an override button. I would not purchase another car without one due to my experience with the Sienna.
http://www.mediafire.com/view/?x97fu482azyi9c3
http://www.mediafire.com/view/?vy8d4wxoglx4yde
I am having the exact same issues with my 2004 Sienna AWD XLE. Can you give me more details on your specific Sienna, was it an AWD, what was the VIN, did you even having any similar issues before?
I am not using the drive flat tire Toyota originally delivered. They wear out too fast and cost too much. I have been told that I need to change to drive flats, but am unconvinced as I have not had the issue during 4 sets or normal tires (Michelin and Parrelli).
Thank you for your help.
Regards,
Peter Aichinger
I am having the exact same issues with my 2004 Sienna AWD XLE. Can you give me more details on your specific Sienna, was it an AWD, what was the VIN, did you even having any similar issues before?
I am not using the drive flat tire Toyota originally delivered. They wear out too fast and cost too much. I have been told that I need to change to drive flats, but am unconvinced as I have not had the issue during 4 sets or normal tires (Michelin and Parrelli).
Thank you for your help.
Regards,
Peter Aichinger
I am having the exact same issues with my 2004 Sienna AWD XLE. Can you give me more details on your specific Sienna, was it an AWD, what was the VIN, did you even having any similar issues before?
I am not using the drive flat tire Toyota originally delivered. They wear out too fast and cost too much. I have been told that I need to change to drive flats, but am unconvinced as I have not had the issue during 4 sets or normal tires (Michelin and Parrelli).
Thank you for your help.
Regards,
Peter Aichinger
I am having the exact same issues with my 2004 Sienna AWD XLE. Can you give me more details on your specific Sienna, was it an AWD, what was the VIN, did you even having any similar issues before?
I am not using the drive flat tire Toyota originally delivered. They wear out too fast and cost too much. I have been told that I need to change to drive flats, but am unconvinced as I have not had the issue during 4 sets or normal tires (Michelin and Parrelli).
Thank you for your help.
Regards,
Peter Aichinger
Yes, it was AWD and I too switched to regular tires (the tires were not the problem). I found a service notice that was issued by Toyota to its service staff online, that made it clear that they were aware of the defect but it was not regarded as a threat of injury so was just a notice to service, not a recall. In other words, the cost of potential injury and replacement of the part was on the owner. I marched that document to my Toyota dealer and demanded it to be fixed...and they fixed it free of charge. I was extremely upset as I was driving at 65 mph on a very busy highway with my kids in the car when the car went into protective skid mode even though the road was dry and I was traveling straight down the road. We avoided an accident but it was scary to say the least! I sold the car and now drive a VW with a shut off switch for the VSC. I feel much safer.
Anyone had any luck with Toyota directly or a dealer? it is a safety issue pure and simple.
Thanks,
Steve 8/29/13
Any update?
stevemv
2004 Siena owner with vsc problem too!
First, I would like to say I just want my car to work and am not looking for more. I am concerned that some may be fishing for some kind of settlement.
The Toyota dealer in Lompoc CA at first indicated that the Toyota rep had identified some cases where they stated using run flat tires was the problem. I have run multiple sets (3) of non run flats without problem, so I discount this diagnosis. I did have a case a couple of years ago when the car would apply the ABS when driving at speeds greater than 20 mph or so. At that time I disconnected the ABS relay and drove to the dealer (where I reinstalled it). The dealer said the steering wheel sensor needed calibration. I had never done this and had aligned the wheels frequently, given that I have an AWD which "ate" tires. This corrected the problem for 3 or 4 years.
The dealer told me that Toyota told them that I needed a new steering rack. It would be $800 with no guarantees. The steering is very good with no wandering and no wheel play. So I have a hard time believing this. I would spend the $$ right away if it would fix it, but do not want to start throw money at this with no diagnosis.
There are only a few components which are in question.
1. The ABS wheel sensors (also tells ABS if wheels are locking)
2, The Steering sensor (needs to be calibrated to the steering shaft)
3. The yaw sensor (tells if the car is rotating as during a skid)
That's it! All of these have fault detection built into the car. It nothing shows up as a fault they are most likely working at least to some degree.
The dealers said they looked at everything, but I do not have the confidence that more was done than plugging in the OBD II.
1. The ABS sensors can be viewed easily with the wheel off. I need to check the sensor and the splines on the shaft (which others have found can get rust and dirt in them as well). ABS sensor are about $90 each without install.
2. The steering shaft sensor can be easily re-calibrated through the ODB II connector. There is a Toyota Service Bulletin (TSB) on this and it is doable by a home mechanic.
3. The yaw sensor appears to be the tough one. No east test and very expensive. If all else fails I my go to a junk yard and see if a swap helps.
Once the ABS sensors have been checked/replaced/ the steering sensor re calibrated and even the yaw sensor swapped there is little more which can be done.
In the final analysis this could be a systems issue (yes, I am an engineer). In the case of a systems issue, all the combined sensor tolerances my not be working out. Several parts must all play together for this system to work. If it was not designed correctly the errors stack up up and the system fails to function properly even though the individual parts are working to the manufacturers specifications. A classic design failure for many systems.
We should all be mad as hell! Looking on the National Highway Traffic Safety Admin. site (NHTSA) there are several reports of this same issue. It is CLEARLY a SAFETY ISSUE (and this on what was a $35K car)! We also face some really bureaucratic gov policy at the NHTSA. The definition of what gets recalled is vague at best.
Beyond this there are numerous complaints by people like us listed on line. Toyota indicated they do not recognize what people put in chat rooms, but most of us have gone to the dealer as well. They are clearly aware that this is an issue.
When I told this to Toyota Motor Sales (I called it in), I was told that there is no recall in place.
I will work through my "punch list" to see if I can fix this myself, but would really like to escalate this. We would need reference to as many owners who have this problem and the car VINs. Everyone should make certain to file a complaint on the NHTSA site as well as will Toyota Motor Corp. The NHTSA reacts well to consumer pressure and I would go directly as well as through my local political representative.
Please let me know what everyone else finds.
Regards,
Peter
I will file complaint on NHTSA site and I will be talking to the dealer serv mgr next week. Also, I removed run-flats years ago from my AWD Siena as they chewed them up way too fast.
stevemv
Thanks
We just traded the van in for a new vehicle, so I hope everyone gets their issue resolved with their Sienna.
stevemv
Got a Lexus IS350...very un-minivanish! ) bery fun car...
Thx
http://cdnedge.vinsolutions.com/dealerimages/Dealer%202812%20Images/trac-inop-li- ght.jpg
I just wanted to make sure that this is the right place to look at and that i have the same problem as you guys
thanks again
I just bought a used one from private seller ! And it did the same thing , the vsc activated !!! The brakes were on and the engine got slower
terrifying van at toyota now replacing rack and pinion assembly completely $1500.00!
i will let you know if it fixes we did unplug the plug under hood but it only helped for a few weeks
dont recomend following that route was told a few times by different dealers it could be rack and pinion
note :
the YAW sensor may or may not fix it you are right though
toyota is ignoring this until someone dies if not already happend. my opinion only of course 11/ 25 /2015
They reset the sensors (Yaw I think!) and they did a few other things, told us it was good to go, we drove it back up to Lake Arrowhead and it locked up twice on the way up.
Back to the dealer, this time the problem was caused according to them because we had mis-matched tires on, they suggested replacing all four tires, which we did, stayed away from the run flats... which the service manager said was ok $812 later we drive up the mountain does exactly the same thing.
Back to the dealer, they keep it for 3 days then come up with the fact that we need to have the original Run Flats and thats why the thing is locking up...
Doesn't make any sense to me, we have video of the vehicle locking up on straight highway, but they still maintain its because we don't have run flats on it... Any advise would be appreciated, don't want to run out and buy another new set of tires if it's not going to fix the issue...
Thanks
1) Basic setup calibration. The Zero Point calibration sets the steering position sensor and the yaw (leaning and lateral acceleration) sensor in sync.
2) If the tires were to slip sideways (wet road, crappy tires) the system would see this as understeer. I would think that an off-camber turn might accentuate this.
3) Worn wheel bearings, suspension components - same. The input won't match the output. Combine this with #2 and you will get a much wider turn than the steering angle would predict.
As an engineer, I'm more apt to look at the data and try to 'adjust' if you can't come to a more professional diagnosis and permanent fix. For instance, if the problem ONLY happened on left turns and was predictable in occurrence, I'd skew the calibration setup ever so slightly to favor the left (offset the yaw or steering sensor towards left bias) so that it was more 'centered' for the new reality. You might also simulate this by adding a few psi of air pressure to the right two tires and take this same curve and see if it helps. But remember this is just a suggestion - proceed with experiments at your discretion!
The one thing that should NOT be done is attempting to change tire pressures or "adjust" the sensor or its output to anywhere other than where service specifications require.
After running into this a few years ago while touring Yellowstone (real scary on mountain roads with switchbacks), this became a constant issue. It is real dangerous when it happens at 75 mph on the interstate with trucks on either side of you!
I ran into a thread that talked about there being a problem with the bushings on rack and pinion module, and that seems to fit well with the data. There are rubber bushings on the module mounting and they deteriorate after a while and must be replaced. So I replaced mine, but the problem still happens - I have a few areas where I can make this happen at will. I finally disconnected the yaw sensor under the seat - no VSC, no ABS, no nothing! At least the car does not try to kill its drivers any more.
Last night I looked under the car while my son rotated the steering wheel and noticed that the rack still moves when rotated - the bushing issue is still there! I am replacing that ?@#$@#$? $500 rack to see if that helps. If nothing else, it should tighten up the steering. Then a front end alignment and resetting of the VSC system. Will let you know what happens.
PS - The AC system on the 2004 Sienna sucks also!