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Jaguar X-Type



  • Nice to meet you. With the way that all of the luxury marques are being discounted with incentive leases and prices, you can get an X-type for about the price of a loaded Accord. Granted, we're not talking fully loaded X-type models for those prices, but some of the deals on certain cars look really good. The two Mercedes-Benz dealers in my area have huge discounts on the C-Class, so C320's (not fully loaded) have been going for Ford Focus money! Bimmer's prices on the 3 where I am are also really low compared to what they used to be when I was looking for a car, but higher than those of the C's that they are practically giving away. The X-type prices seem to be about inbetween the two, though I still see pretty expensive ones too. It shouldn't be too hard to find a nice deal on a fantastic car. Good luck finding a deal out there!

    mjc440 - Two new 6-speeds for 2004 X-type

    The X-type will get both a six-speed manual and a six-speed automatic transmission that will be offered alongside the current five-speeds for 2004. Sources say that the five speed is to become the entry-level transmission for the car, being used on models like the 2.1 liter in Europe. The six-speeds will be available on both the 2.5 and 3.0 liter X-type models in the U.S., and I believe they will be priced like the current five speeds are now - a no cost option on the 3.0 and a slight markup for the auto in the 2.5 - but that is just speculation.

    However, I don't think that the six-speeds will be available for 2004 right off the bat. I believe they will be introduced during the 2004 model year as a "running change" at about the time of the introduction of the Estates or much earlier, but I could easily be wrong here too. Sometime in 2004, the X-type will have six-speeds though.

    With the narrowing of the price difference on the 3.0 liter and the added standard equipment such as the standard power sunroof, folding seats, standard wood and leather steering wheel (with your choice of aluminum, walnut, maple, gray-stained wood, bronze-stained wood, piano black, etc.) you may also want to look at it since it will have more power than the 2.5 liter. Granted, Jaguar's use of some aluminum and magnesium in the re-engineered frame and the bolt-together technology lightened the cars a bit, and the new engine tweaks made them cleaner burning and more responsive with the drivetrain, but as the saying goes, "there's no replacement for displacement." The manual and 2.5 makes a fast car, but the 3.0 with either transmission choice is simply a rocket that can take everything on the road save for the Lamborghini I saw yesterday. And in 2004, it costs just $3,000 more than the 2.5 and comes with over $2,000 in new features as standard that used to be cost options.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Nice to see you again! Don't be such a stranger... :)
  • Jagboy - Thanks for the info. Having a six speed manual or auto will be another plus for the Jag.

    Yesterday the dealer let me drive a manual 2.5 even after disclosing to him that I've never owned a car with a manual and that this would be the first time I'd be driving a manual on the road. I drove it in traffic and on a winding country road - I couldn't believe how smooth-shifting and easy to drive the manual was - I only stalled it once (in the parking lot). The 2.5 in manual form has ample power - and the engine loves to rev. (I drove the auto earlier and it didn't seem like it had too much pep because the auto would not stay in the lower gear long enough to make the engine scream.)

    You mentioned that the 2.5 - 3.0 spread will only be $3K for 2004 - Does this mean that the 2.5 starting price will remain at $30K and the 3.0 will start at $33K? - or will they raise the price of the 2.5 and keep the 3.0's price flat?

  • How far off the mark am I on the following:

    New 2003 2.5 X-Type, Manual Trans, non-metallic paint (black)

    The only options are: 1.) single disc CD player (a Jag that doesn't come with a CD player???) and 2.) Xenon headlights.

    I can't go any higher than $24,500. There is no trade & I will buy outright with CASH (no lease or loan).

    How reasonable is this offer?
  • When I got my 3.0 manual w/premium sound, I specifically asked my salesman if there would be any changes for the '04 model. He said, "No, just some minor cosmetic stuff." He had just got back from a training session in Arizona where he was supposedly was filled in on all the '04's so I took him at his word. I would love to have the 6-speed manual transmission and better sound system. Either he skipped his seminar and played golf or he'll say anything to push the '03's. Either way, I'm screwed.
    Guess I'll drive this for a few years and dream about the "R". Live and learn.

  • I think your offer sounds pretty good and that you'll probably get it for around that price. The manual transmission works high in you favor because Jaguar wants to sell more manual cars, so that knocks off a few thousand from the base price of the car right there. The single-disk CD player is only a $200 option, and most dealers have been ordering all of their X-types with that option because it is very popular - (which is why I cannot understand people complaining about the car not coming standard with one; the 3.0 does come standard with the CD player, and dealers order all of their 2.5's with it too. At least where I am, it is almost impossible to find a non-CD car.)

    Yes, I definitely think you could get your deal. A bunch of people at other boards that we cannot mention here have been snatching up X-type 2.5's optioned similarly to the one you seem to be interested in, and in the better deals, they got about $4,000 discounts. $29,000 - $4,000 = $25,000, and I'm sure the dealer would knock off a little more since you are doing a CASH deal, so $25,000 - $500 = $24,500! You've got yourself a deal! That was fun! Some people have even reported basic manual transmission cars going for $22,000, so I think you could easily get it for the price you want.

    toofragus -

    It's a good life when we can complain about our Jaguars not being the most up-to-date versions out there! :-) I'm happy about the 2004's - Jaguar is staying competitive and making the best cars it can. I got the one that I liked, so I can't complain. I can understand being annoyed with your dealer if he lied to you (or was just oblivious to what was going on, as he should be knowledgible). But we all chose the cars that fit what we wanted and needed, knowing that later sometime there would be tweaks done to the car; it doesn't make the earlier cars lesser at all.

    X-type risiduals over a 36 month period have now been forecasted as increasing from 46% to 49% over the same period of time thanks to the 2004's! The new 3.0 pricing finally makes the car price competitive too. All of Jaguar's sales are down this year, as they were "artificially high" because of how they had been pushed last year. Jaguar predicted that all of its sales would be down this year, so they expected things to turn out how they've been going. However, the X-type looks like it is going to be just shy of its original 30,000 cars per year sales target with the way it's been going, and it's still making up half of Jaguar's sales, so it's doing what it's supposed to do even with the dead economy. The article fails to note that X-type was never intended to sell in volumes over 30,000 per year in the United States when comparing it to less exclusive cars, but it highlights some of the new news for 2004: - - _code=carnews&loc_code=index&content_code=04872339
  • That's a good point, jagboyxtype. I can't complain. I got a great car with a terrific end of model season price break. You can't have your cake and eat it too. I hope that the X-type is successful so when I put about 120K on mine, I'll be ready to be blown away with all the improvements.

    I picked up the September Car and Driver and saw nothing about Jags. Did I miss it or is my bookstore late in stocking the most recent issue?

  • They're late. I've looked around and couldn't find the article. They still have that "Fourgasm" four-cylinder comparison test magazine from September. I think the article is in next month's edition, which should be out some time within the next week if the store is not already carrying it.

    Speaking of magazines, I liked the Autocar coverstory, which read: "Why Jaguar now builds a better car than BMW." Aparently, the '04 5-Series is not that hot to drive, and the S-type is the best drivers car of its class. The 5 was called "average" and the Mercedes E-Class was called "mediocre." I thought that was too harsh, but still, it's about time people started figuring out how good the Jaguars really are. We've known this for years, but it took the automotive press long enough to figure out. Autospies even found the article, and did their own writeup as well:

    Here's a scan of the cover of that edition of Autocar: - - - - utospies/word_images/9964712_image001.jpg

    I'm wondering what happened with the press, since all the Jags are getting good writeups when they used to always get the lowest scores in the pack. I guess Jaguar finally began paying them off. Even the XK8 got rated third in the latest Road & Track comparison, but the best it used to be able to do was last place, even behind the Ford Thunderbird. It seemed as if the magazine editors would have rated a Miata over the XK. But now, one of the editors is looking for a used XK8 that he can afford - but they've tested the XK8 so many times I can't count them all, why would they just figure this out now? Wouldn't that editor have purchased a used one already if he liked it from another test. Surely all of the tests of the supercharged XKR convertible that came out months and years before this one would have inspired him to go get one more than yet another drive in the normal XK8? Not that I am complaining about this. I'm very happy about the good writeups for all the Jags, but the way they change their minds and suddenly are all-for the underdog Jaguars only fuels my suspicion that everything the automotive press says has some other motive behind it... I just can't put my finger on it yet, but I'm looking for patterns in their behavior... I probably just jinxed the Jags.
  • But doesn't this new price decrease really hurt the resale value of the prior 2 years..?...I am looking to get into an X 3.0. The dealer was discounting 4500 off the top. He also had some left over 02's and 03's...I am wondering what a fair discount price is considering the new prices. I live in CT...Thanx for any input..Rod
  • Jagboy - As always, thanks for the info. I had the same problem as Toofragus - the salesman at the dealer knew nothing about the changes for 2004.

    Two questions for anyone who can answer:

    1.) Approx when will the 6-speed be available (Jagboy was right in saying it would not be available in the early 2004s - so how long will we need to wait)

    2.) The option Xenon headlamps - are they located in the outer headlight assemblies? In the 2003 brochure, it mentions the optional Xenon lights but shows a picture of the inner headlight assembly. Is this a misprint in the brochure?

  • riezriez Posts: 2,361
    October 2003 issue of Motor Trend has their annual New Car summary. No mention of any use of 6-speed manuals in Jag S-type or X-type. Both mention use of 5-speed manuals for MY2004. The New Car summary issues of R&T and C&D out shortly. Will be interesting to see if they show any 6-speed manual in MY2004. (Thought it interesting that MT mentions the Getrag 5-speed manual is "special order" option only for S-type 3.0L.)
  • cjs2002cjs2002 Posts: 341
    well I've been looking at cars now what seems like forever... and I still can't get over the look of the X... I like it... and I don't know what it is that I like so much... well the dealors around me are really doing some great price haggling and great incentives... so I'm considering the X again... till now it was pretty much the G35 which is no bad car itself... I just think the Jag X looks more... how do we say... just prestigious and upscale... I don't know... anyways... we'll let ya'll know whats goin on
  • riezriez Posts: 2,361
    October 2003 issue of Car & Driver has their New Car summary data. They discuss various changes in equipment and prices, but no mention of 6-speed manual for MY2004 X-type. [Found it interesting that they write, "The S-type sedan loses its V-6 with five-speed-manual version." See MT's comments on this issue above.]
  • tincup47tincup47 Posts: 1,508
    Well, I've just had the new X-type hit 1,000 miles and I thought I would share my impressions of my new car.
      I find the power more than adequate, the transmission and shift linkage very nice except for a bit of a long throw from 2nd to 3rd gear.
     The ride and handling are very good, a mix of sportiness and grace. Very feline in it's gracefulness. The AWD system is very good and the rearward power bias leads to very neutral handling.
    The sound system has nice sound but the radio reception is kind of weak. I did perform the change from US to the European settings (it does work the same with the CD player) but I felt the sound quality suffered more than any reception gain I obtained so I set it back to the US setting.
     Fuel mileage has been consistent 21-22 MPG with no highway trips yet.
     The styling and color continue to be a delight and the interior is very comfortable and has an inviting ambience.
      Overall I am very pleased with this car and feel this is a true Jaguar. Having had the opportunity to drive all of the current Jaguar vehicles (except the R types) I feel the X-type is true to the marque in it's feel and performance. Of course as always YMMV.
  • tincup47tincup47 Posts: 1,508
    Time to be a dissenting voice on six speed transmissions. In my opinion for most vehicles these are strictly mareting hype and will provide little actual benefit. If a vehicle has a flat torque curve they are uneccessary. The only vehicles that truly need them are high strung rev happy vehicles with their maximum torque hitting at high revs with a sharp rise and fall. The Honda S2000 is such a vehicle as is the Subaru WRX (to keep the revs up where the turbo lag is not a factor).
  • X-type sales have recovered "big time" over earlier this year according to the latest report noting that the X-type, new XJ, and new Range Rover have been the strongest products from PAG. X-type sales have risen 4.5% for August over the same month last year. 3,397 units were sold. Range Rover had its best sales month in history. XK sales were down 44.8%.
    _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

    Autocar recently announced of the Jaguar AJ-V6 engines that power the X-type and the S-type:

    "Merc engine cleanest but coarse; BMW straight six sounds good but Jaguar's
    Ford-derived V6 is best

    I've been saying this all along.
    _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

    The new SIX-Speeds, my opinion:

    Jaguars are luxury sports cars, with luxury not being simply better accomadations than your average vehicle, but excessively better than average. No one NEEDS a 6-speed transmission in these cars because of the power of their engines, but no one NEEDS a luxury car like a Jaguar or any of its competitors either. But we are not going on necessity here, we are going on what is best in order to best the competition and offer more than they can. The rest of the Jaguar line already has 6-speed transmissions, the X-type getting two new 6-speeds is simply the natural evolution of the car. If it's Born to Perform, it is going to have much more than anyone needs, including gears, but why get any luxury sports car like a Jaguar if you don't want something better than what's only necessary? Jaguar gives you six gears, not because you need them out of pure necessity, but because they want to offer more than you need. The five-speeds are great, the six-speeds are an improvement on greatness. Nothing wrong with doing your best and then besting yourself, and that's what Jaguar is doing. It's the same reason that the X-type comes standard with real wood and leather - all hand finished - while everyone else still offers plastic and cloth.
  • What is the benefit of a six speed vs. a five speed? I guess the car doesn't go any faster. Does the extra gear make for smoother transitions?

    I am considering larger tires, 17in.instead of 16in. I have been told that there are some pluses in handling but a bit of comfort is lost as well? Is this correct?

  • tincup47tincup47 Posts: 1,508
    A six speed transmission has no advantages over a 5 speed in a vehicle with an engine with a broad torque band. Most vehicles today will not reach their top speed in their highest gear, so additional speed will not be an advantage. For most vehicles with 5 speed transmissions top speed is obtained in 4th gear as 5th gear is generally an overdrive. Transmission gearing is there to make sure an engine is operating in the proper RPM range for optimum acceleration and performance or fuel mileage. Engines that have a narrow power band or have to keep RPM in a specific area to provide adequate torque for this acceleration need more gears than a vehicle that does not have a narrow band.
      More gears in a transmission lead to more complexity, more expense, and more possibility of breakage due to the necessary downsizing of the additional gears and related parts to fit into the transmission case.
      Jagboxtoy's post confirms the marketing requirement and in today's market it is probably a necessity, but it does not change the fact that it would be functionally useless in the current Jaguar vehicles. I believe in the old saying "KISS" or "Keep it simple stupid" when it comes to engineering in vehicles. Thinking like this might have saved BMW from I-drive. I certainly can understand and appreciate new useful technology in vehicles, I just have a problem with marketing driven "improvements" that provide little or no functional benefits. But this is just my opinion and doesn't make anyone else's opinion less valuable or incorrect. (I have actually been known to have been wrong in my life, imagine that)
  • riezriez Posts: 2,361
    tincup47... You should read p. 92 of the latest issue of Car & Driver. Small "Technical Highlight" article on the new MB 7G-Tronic 7-speed automatic. Excerpt:

    "The overall gear-ratio spread is 6.01, just missing te current champ, the six-speed ZF automatic's 6.04. The larger that number, the better the performance and fuel economy."

    CD points out that this new AT is nearly the same weight as the 5-speed it replaces. And that it boosts fuel economy by 5% and reduces acceleration to 62 mph by 0.3 seconds. A true win-win all around!

    Designers have to take into account the output curve of the engine and the selected axle ratio. Overall ratio is the individual gear ratio multiplied by the final drive ratio. The overall spread is just the overall ratio in first gear minus the overall ratio in top gear.

    A great example is the Acura 3.2TL Type S. Uses a 5-speed automatic. Has an overall spread of around 5.50, which is fantastic for 5-speed AT. Check out its acceleration figures and fuel economy estimates. Both are fantastic. They couldn't do it well with a 4-speed. Shift quality would be horrible if the difference in overall ratio between gears is too big.
  • tincup47tincup47 Posts: 1,508
    I certainly don't disagree with the results quoted, but we are talking a whole different subject. The dynamics of an automatic transmission are different than a manual. Since a manual transmission requires it's shifting inputs exclusively from the driver the same results will generally not be possible. Every time you shift a manual transmission, you interrupt the flow of power to the rear wheels with the disengagement of the clutch. An automatic does not do that. That is one of the reasons that modified automatic transmissions or sequential electronic clutched manual transmissions are finding favor in drag racing, indycars, World Rally, and other forms of motor racing. They shift with no disengament of the clutch, hence little or no interuption of the power. Also, with conventional H gated manual shifters a missed shift is possible which is not a good thing for acceleration. My thought is the more shifts you make, the more chances you have to screw it up.
  • That info. is helpful. What do you mean by skipping gears? I have a manual and often go from 1st to 3rd or 3rd to 5th. That's not a problem, is it?

  • riezriez Posts: 2,361
    tincup47... Regardless of whether it is an automatic or a manual transmission, that is why the world is moving to more gears (6-7-8) and relatively infinite gears (CVT). Provides increased fuel economy and improved performance. Of course, there are limits that will be reached.

    Your missed shift issue might hold for racing. But we are talking about production cars being driven on the road by us average Joes and Janes. [Even then, racers don't use 1-, 2-, or 3-speed trannys any more.]
  • tincup47tincup47 Posts: 1,508
    Most of the racing applications that are using more gears are with vehicles that have high strung, high revving engines with narrow RPM bands of peak power. They are also have the money to replace or rebuild these transmissions regularly. Nascar vehicles are getting by nicely with 4 speed transmissions even on road courses. The style of racing and the engines determine the transmissions used. I still believe that the benefits of ratio spread on a manual are not as meaningful as they are on an automatic due to the human factor. Regardless of spread, driver A might regularly shift at 3-4000 RPM while driver B shifts regularly at redline. Totally different results.
     As for missing shifts, I still occasionally do that myself, especially if I'm trying to rush my shifts. But like I said, my take on the necessity on six speed transmissions in Jaguars is my own personal opinion. I still feel the additional complexity is not justified by the potential benefits. It doesn't really matter what I think to the manufacturer though, they will make the decision based on demand by the public.
  • Of course the advantage of a 6 speed over a 5 speed is that 1st gear can be lower (for quicker starts) and top gear can be a little higher (for better gas mileage - how else could a 405hp Z06 Vette get almost 30 MPG).

    My opinion is that 6 speeds is probably "enough". But who knows, maybe in 5 years, 7 speeds will be the norm. Automakers are trying their best to "out gear" the competition. Just 5 years ago, having a 5 speed auto was a something special.

    Does anyone remember in the 50s that GM's automatic was a 2 speed!
  • kssodkssod Posts: 37
    is there any word as to when a 3.0 high output is expected. I think a 20-30 hp bump along with either 6 speed tranny would make a nice competitor to the 330i Performance, as well as, a great replacement for my 02 x-type. Practical wish list
    1) smoother clutch uptake and a short throw 6 speed
    2)A 6 speed auto with a better automanual than the J-gate
    3) Electronic parking brake like on S type
    4) More wood and chrome on the sport package
    5) that's about it.... all the sneak preview of the 04 upgrades seem to address most of my other nit picks.

    6) oh ya... How about a quantum leap improvement in quality control and reliability compared to my 02
    I know I must be the exception but honestly its been back over 15 times for unscheduled repairs
  • riezriez Posts: 2,361
    The MY2004 summaries for MT, C&D, R&T, and Automobile are out. I've read each of them over. Nary a single mention of a 6-speed manual in the works for the USA X-type. At least for MY2004. If Jag is going to do it, they aren't telegraphing this to the American press.
  • None of the American motoring press except Road & Track has even mentioned the X-type Estate, and they only had two official press photos and 2 or 3 sentences written about it that were taken from other articles. Because the two new 6-speed transmissions are not going to be available right when 2004 production begins, they will be introduced as running changes like the double cupholders or AWD badging, etc., and are therefore not mentioned in the short blurbs that the American motoring press writes in its 2004 new car editions, which only cover some of the changes available from the start of the 2004 model year. They do mention the bumper changes and some of the minor stuff, but none of the major changes such as the BOFE or new structural components, which are highlighted in detail by many of the articles posted here in previous messages.

    On the six-speeds, Auto Express recently wrote in their "First Look" at the X-type Estate:

    "Gearbox choice will be equally wide [as engine choice, which was mentioned in the paragraph before this one]. Entry-level cars will have a five-speed manual, with buyers of flagship models getting a choice of manual and automatic boxes, both offering six ratios."

    U.S. X-types will get the two six-speeds and the current five-speeds will either continue on basic versions of the car, or be restricted to the basic versions of the car sold in Europe or on the diesel. The five speeds may be restricted to base European cars when the six-speeds arrive in the U.S.
    _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

    "Great Body, Good Legs, and as with Most Beauties, an Inclination to be Tempermental" and "Better with Age" C&D and R&T respective Long Term raves!

    Car&Driver and Road&Track both have Long-Term X-type updates. Aparently, they had pretty problematic cars (they seem to have had every early production issue the car has had), but now the cars are working "like a Swiss watch" and have been "running flawlessly for quite some time;" and they say the only complaints about the cars are the manual transmission clutches, the feel of which they dislike. Aside from that, they are enthusiastic about the X-type, even noting that though it initially scored poorly in their first comparison tests, it was because they "couldn't decide what to make of the new cat," being skeptical about a new Jaguar in a new market, but now "despite a slow start [in their warming-up to the car], it appears this Jag is ready to run" and that the car only gets "better with age," which was also the title of the R&T update. "Editors continue to laud the X-type for its crisp exterior lines, classy interior, comfortable front seats and the ample passing power of the 3.0-liter V-6." An editor's note from Car & Driver says, "I enjoy driving this Jaguar more than other Jag models. The X-type actually feels 'sporty' for a Jaguar." C&D also noted that their car got better with age as well, as performance in the 0-60 and quarter mile improved over time (see, I've been saying it has to be broken in a bit and then it refines itself over time). AWD they said was blizzard proof. They end saying that "after 13 months, it's clear the X-type has many traditional Jaguar virtues: elegant styling, good power, amd a smooth, comfortable, quiet ride." Another editor's note said "Great power, fairly fun to drive, and it feels like a Jag as opposed to a Ford in sheep's clothes." So, again it has proved to be a real Jaguar - they don't even question that anymore. They both loved the power, styling, ride, and quietness of the X-type, and though they could have done without having to have ironed out the initial troubles from early production cars, they mentioned that even the issues themselves "did not damage the Jaguar's popularity" with them so much as having to wait for the parts themselves. Road&Track has been enjoying the X-type Jag so much that they had to include a speeding ticket in the spent money category! The articles can be found in the October 2004 issues of Car&Driver and Road&Track.
  • AutoExpress reports that "Jaguar Heats Up X-type," saying that "A hot new X-type is headed for the road." Set to be unveiled at the March Geneva Motor Show, this latest addition to the X-type line features a naturally-aspirated 3.0 liter engine boosted to 250 horsepower, as well as a new lower suspension and body kit with spoilers, etc. (This is probably why the 6-speed transmissions are coming, as they'll be smoother and offer better fuel economy despite the higher-output of the engine. Doubters of the introduction of the 6-speeds should notice that none of the American car magazines, which note the "changes for 2004," mentioned this version of the X-type or the engine power boost either, though Jaguar is finishing the final touches on the engine at this very moment, and the car will be available soon in 2004.)
  • riezriez Posts: 2,361
    Don't forget that in USA they are defined in terms of when the new model comes out in relation to the New Year. A car that comes out in January or December of 2003 is normally a MY2004. A car that comes out in January or December of 2004 can be considered a MY2005, depending upon how the manufacturer chooses to designate it.

    For example, BMW made some changes to the 3 Series coupes and convertibles in the spring of 2003. Those cars are considered MY2004s, even though the MY 2003 cycle doesn't normally end until later this CY and they are being sold along side MY2003 sedans being built at the exact same time.

    So if a revised X-type comes out after 1/1/04, Jaguar can, if they want, call them as MY2005s. The car mags were primarily focused on MY2004s.

    I have no idea how European model year cycles work.
  • It doesn't appear that boosting the HP from 227 to 250 would make that much difference. Maybe it would. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable will weigh in.

    The good news is that it's obvious that the 2.5L is being phased out. The price reduction and added standard features for the 3.0 have just about wiped out the financial incentive to buy the 2.5. I expect it will be offered with little or no options in economical lease deals.

    I predict that in the next 3-4 years, the 3.0 will be the base model. The upgrade will be either a V-8 or an "R" version.

    Get ready to rock!

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