A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

busiris

While probably not the only factor, being in a zone that doesn't meet current EPA standards for air quality probably is the main reason auto emissions testing is mandated for one area and not another. Once an area/zone is determined to be in non-compliance, its a real issue for more than just auto emissions, as increased regulations start applying to ALL emissions... From factories, power plants, etc. And these increased restrictions can be real "deal-killers" for new business moving into the area, or even expanding an older, established business.

In the upstate of SC, we've been teetering upon being declared "non-compliant" for years, and Ive been amazed at how many tricks can be played within the rules of the "game" to be declared compliant when not being compliant.

It even gets down to where the air sample test stations are located, and whether or not there's a taller building nearby.

So, I don't think many states do it just for the revenue, although I'd be the first to admit, with some of our "best and brightest" in Washington and our Statehouses making the rules, anything is possible.

jipster

While Kentucky did adopt a vehicle emissions testing program for three northern counties in 1999, the requirement ended in late 2005 with an emergency regulation signed by Governor Ernie Fletcher.

The governor cited improved quality of air and the potential to use other methods of reducing air pollutants as the reason for the program's end.

That was from the D.M.V. The reason it ended was all the political pressure put on Fletcher to end it. Not quite 10 years ago. But, what a pain. Especially when you didn't pass. :-(

Mr_Shiftright

it depends on where you live whether it makes sense or not. If, in an extreme case, you lived in Los Angeles, and voted against smog tests, you'd be voting against your own best interests.

DOC -- now don't get cute on us. The "horses and zebras" analogy was to point out that the most LIKELY cause is a good technician's FIRST (but not only) premise.

If it's not horses, then you go to cattle, but the first premise shouldn't be zebras.

Surely you have experienced this many times: "I took my car to Doc to have the door handle fixed and now my power steering leaks! WHAT DID YOU DO TO IT?"

andre1969

t depends on where you live whether it makes sense or not. If, in an extreme case, you lived in Los Angeles, and voted against smog tests, you'd be voting against your own best interests.

I agree completely. Places like Los Angeles are naturally "dirty" simply because of the topography and confluence of air and ocean currents. You could wipe out humanity completely, and the air quality would still be bad there just from nature's build-ups. So, in a case like LA, it makes sense to do as much as you can to prevent adding more pollution.

I don't think it was horses or zebras. I think it was heifers!

isellhondas

" WHAT DID YOU DO TO IT?"

The thing we heard most often was..." It never did that before you guys worked on it"

thecardoc3

The line techs hear the most often is " I never noticed it before...blah...blah...blah" That can be a very accurate statement, simply because it doesn't say that the problem was or wasn't there, it means the owner/driver never paid any attention to the car before something got their attention and had to be repaired. Now they are on the lookout for troubles and of course notice something.

As far as the accusation of "What did you do to it" that's one of the worst things that can happen and its based on flawed stereotypes, or simple ignorance of cars. Either way, the first goal is to take care of the customers concern and attempt to get them to understand exactly what the problem is and if or how it could or could not be related to whatever was done previously.

If it was related to what we did, apologies are required and the issue is handled at no cost to the customer. If it had nothing to do with anything we would be responsible for its now on the customer to learn about the situation and help us deal with it for them, or take the car elsewhere and have the problem solved.

If they go to the point where they accuse us of having done it deliberately "to try and make more money" then many times we fix the issue no-charge just to try and make them happy. But its a one way street. Anyone can do that and rip us off at any time and that's unfortunately part of the risk that we have to bare. But they never get a second chance to do that because if they don't trust us, we cannot trust them. As I tech I can't work to the standards that I strive to while I'm looking over my shoulder wondering what some victim is going to accuse us of, I need to be concentrating on the car that is in front of me.

Common sense would have people realize we don't go around breaking things to make more money. All to often when a car leaves and it isn't perfect, the shop ends up fixing the stuff for free when the car comes back. Shops don't make money when something comes back, they lose money. Why would anyone break something, to get to turn around and pay to fix it?

I had a girl call the shop a couple of months ago. She claimed there was damage to the front bumper on her car and that I had done it. In the middle of the call her husband walked in and overheard her stressing about her car. Meanwhile I was already giving her contacts to have the car looked at. We don't have a parking lot so everything sits on the street. At that time, it appeared that the most likely cause was someone had hit it. (It had sat out there for three days after it was repaired and they picked it up after hours) Once he figured out what she was talking about he stopped her and told her that damage had been there for months and it happened at the mall.

All I heard was a click when she hung up. No apology for being accused falsely, and if the husband had not of intervened, I would have been paying to fix a bumper that we didn't damage.

imidazol97

On the other hand,

I had my leSabre repaired at a local shop where I really liked the way the main mechanic works. I found the door had been scratched with 2-3 1-inch scratches like someone opened a door against it and the door moved at they got into or out of their car, leaving scratches on the crimson pearl metallic paint.

I never said a word to the mechanic about it. I just assumed it happened with a customer in the parking lot because the spaces are too narrow. However, I do know it happened while the car was in their custody for 2 days.

So not all customers are trying to get an innocent repair location to pay for other damage to their cars.

jipster

"Common sense would have people realize we don't go around breaking things to make more money"

I think the stereotype is that you say things need to be repaired that don't, or that repairs are said to have been made that aren't. I've never heard of a shop intentionally "breaking things to make more money."

"I would have been paying to fix a bumper that we didn't damage"

You are definitely the rare exception on that one. Not a good business decision IMO. Just a small 3 inch wide crease (no deeper than the period at the end of this sentence) was $599 to repair on my Hona Civic. If you are in the right, stick to your guns.

Most boneheaded thing a tech ever did to one of my cars: Put in an air filter that was actually 1/3 too small for the housing. I couldn't believe it. I heard the filter bouncing around while I was driving. Possible explainations... laziness or incompetence.

thecardoc3

You are definitely the rare exception on that one. Not a good business decision IMO. Just a small 3 inch wide crease (no deeper than the period at the end of this sentence) was $599 to repair on my Hona Civic. If you are in the right, stick to your guns

No, we are quite average in that regard and there are some who go way beyond what we could ever afford to do. I'll go back to RBs comments. He didn't like me taking the position that I wouldn't just take him on his word and he got a lot of support and everyone wanted to question me over it. While that's just a small sidebar to the issue, shops routinely eat all kinds of stuff to try and keep the customers happy. Techs call it the
1-800-givemesomethingforfree number. Many consumers take advantage of those numbers for all kinds of stuff and the techs are routinely blamed.

As far as fighting it, lets say the customer decides to take us to court if I said no-way to fixing the damage and the husband didn't speak up. I have no proof that the damage didn't occur while the car was under my care. We don't have a leg to stand on. Then we not only get to pay to fix it we have court costs, and lost time, etc, etc.

BTW if something does happen to a car while we have it, we immeadiately make it right.

I'll never forget the one incident. A guy that owned a Buick Lesabre that I had worked on was standing at the service managers desk with the dealership owner. I got called to the desk and the owner immeadiately jumped all over me for smoking on the customers car and burning a hole in the carpeting. Only one minor little detail to the guys story, I don't smoke and can't stand it, never could. Looking back, I was probably losing my job right then and had I been a smoker likely would have. The service manager spoke up and pointed out that little flaw in the guys story and told me to go get back to what I was doing.

crkyolfrt

" I'll go back to RBs comments. He didn't like me taking the position that I wouldn't just take him on his word and he got a lot of support and everyone wanted to question me over it."



Now hold on again, doc.
You have made a few posts about this and not letting it drop, and now with this one, I feel compelled to get cards on the table..so let's do it.

I know I said that this forum might be pretty dead if you weren't here, but I guess I should have also mentioned a caveat. That being, as long as credibility remains intact. You question his, yet when we did press you to back up your ridiculous potential theory of a pothole jarring loose the oil cap, then you went a different direction and decided it best to use the argument that "shops are supposed to check fluid levels even if just in for a tire swap". Yet we know that when RB called them, the reception he got was of incredulity with them saying that he should be calling the shop where he did the oil change last. That confirms their common practice is to not check fluid levels if the car is there for a tire swap. It's either that or RB's original theory was bang on. If it looks like a duck..quacks like a duck..even though I know you would love to grasp at almost any other theory at this point.

And to cover harmomic vibration...of the kind that will loosen a cap, but actually once loose, leave it free floating threading itself anti-clockwise and clockwise within a range coinciding with engine RPM, but because that RPM range is never enough to have it anti-clockwise itself right off, it continues to free-float wearing the threads throughout that range. Sometimes you will see this type anomaly on...for an example...an engine mount bolt through the frame of a bike where the engine is stressed in the frame to assist in frame rigidity. Other places I have seen this is in fact an oil cap...of the threaded type as opposed to the 180¼ twist to lock rad cap type. Except that we know that that wasn't the case as not only would RB have seen that when he stopped to check oil, and even if he was not observant enough, about the only thing that hasn't been contested yet, is that loss of vacuum would not, *not* trigger a CEL *.

You speak often about common sense, yet you drop the ball on that front when it suits you and/or when others use it.

Let's be forthright here among friends ok, doc? Since you are as capable as you have most of us convinced that you are, tell us *every* single possible cause (obviously that you can think of) for the oil cap to not have been in its proper place. No need to use the pothole one..we are all quite familiar with that one. Next? *

I'm not trying to be a prick here. I am merely pressing in a similar fashion that you yourself do to us, so I figure this getting pinned down is fair game. I'm not trying to be mean. I really am curious now, even more than before, what are all the causes for the oil cap to not have been in place?

* Now maybe I have given you one potential clue to start with?

jipster

"As far as fighting it, lets say the customer decides to take us to court if I said no-way to fixing the damage and the husband didn't speak up. I have no proof that the damage didn't occur while the car was under my care"

Well, the burden of proof would be on the plaintiff to prove that the car was damaged while under your care. The only proof that you could of had would be a walk-around with the customer before accepting the car for repair... marking any dents or scratches.

I had 4 new tires put on one of my vehicles, a decade or so ago, at Firestone. I think it was my Olds Cutlass Supreme, had the snap on hub caps. Lost a hub cap on the way home. In looking at the other hubcaps, they weren't completely seated. I returned to Firestone asking for reimbursement because they had not installed the hub caps properly. The owner said go buy you another one and bring him the receipt. Which is what I did. His body language suggested I may be lieing. I don't recall him apologising for my inconvience. I suppose he thought I was one of those 1-800-givemesomethingforfree people. :-(

thecardoc3

I had a second thought after I had posted that and almost changed it but had to get busy with a customers car so I let it stand.

The point was simply taking a position that wasn't automatically inline with his assumption, wasn't approved of by just about everyone else. It was immeadiately accepted that what he wrote was exactly how it had to be. If you look I never said that it was or wasn';t and still dont. Jipster was questioning why we wouldn't stick to our guns when we are falsely accused. If you stop and read what I wrote there, all RB had to do was dial Tire Kingdoms 1-800 givemefree number and they would have done cartwheels to make his situation right, whether they were at fault or not. My dissatisfaction with him was how quickly and freely he went to looking down his nose at the tech, mistake or no mistake.

I said there were gaps in his story. The non use of that customer satisfaction system being a glaring one as compared to how most of that kind of stuff goes down.

isellhondas

When I was with Honda it got to the point that the Service Advisors would do a walkaround of the cars we took in. If there was fresh body damage, we would point it out to the customer.

Quite often they would hear.." Oh, wow...I wonder how that happened?"

Had we not pointed out the damage we would have been blamed for it when the cars were picked up.

As for the oil cap? From my vantage point, I don't think the tire shop did it but the question..." Do you guys check oil levels when a car is in for a tire repair?"

If yes, than they did it! If the answer was.." Now, why would we do that?"

Then it came loose for a different reason.

Cardoc may seem a bit...well...more than a bit defensive buit I've been in his shoes and I remember getting blamed for things my shop never did.

We once did a brake bob on a Pontiac Le Mans. I watched the customer as he
approached his car after paying his bill. He did a slow walkaround and then he crouched down and looked under the car.

He then came looking for the manager in charge...me.

" Ah, my car is leaking something"

So, I had one of the guys put it up on a hoist and it was discovered that the rather substancial leak was coming from the transmission. I told him he needed a reseal job.

Well, it never leaked before..you guys must have done something"

Long story...he when and whined to our Store Manager and I got to reseal his
100,000 mile transmission for nothing. The convertor "o" ring came out in
several rock hard pieces. When he came to pick up his car with a smirk on his
face, I showed him the pieces of o ring.

" Those probably came out of someone else's car"...Yeah...right!

When doing brake jobs, we didn't fully raise the cars in the air. Had we done this my brake guy wold have spotted the leak and one of my advisors would have called the customer and noted it on the work order.

Getting blamed for things got pretty old sometimes..

crkyolfrt

In the case of the hardened seal pieces, I'd wiped the smirk off that &^%#! face so frig fast, his head would STILL be topping...how many years later?..

There is NO WAY IN HELL I'D have paid and Store Mgr should have stuck to his guns. Get Judge Judy happenin' if you have to...she too would sweep the frig parking lot with that loser.. pffttttt

But I too have been the victim of not honest mechanics. I even had the OWNER of a fairll well known local shop that had recently been rebuilt to modern standards after an incandescent trouble light fire on a gas tank job burned the place down. Had it happened two days earlier my old rusty diesel Land Cruiser would have been in there. Anyway, I had my Camry AWD stick in there for a afety certificate. The owner drove the lift jack leg right up and was prying on the gas pedal. I hear this sickening crunching and creaking and I said stop stop as fast as I could but the damage was done. Now HERE is the kicker...I TOLD him it was not in the right place!!!!!! But he insisted it was fine. Then when it went through the car he said, well that's not MY fault, the car has a punk floor..I could have frig knocked him out cold I was so mad. The car did NOT have a punk floor at all! He simply had it in the wrong place and was a stubborn (insert nationality here) and refused to backdown insisting that the floor should have held it. Well duh...not if the lifting arm was in the wrong freakin' spot you ar$e..

In the end, he did nothing...my loss...I had to pry the floor back down using blocks and sticking a long pryball through both doors using the lift as a pry-point. he said I don't have time for you to tie up my hoist while you do that...and I told him you absolutely WILL wait on me or call the cops because that is what it will take to get me outta here. And consider yourself lucky I don't sue your ar$e off. As I recall..I guess you can tell how infuriated I was as I recall it...

Guess where the floor DID start to rust later??

I could tell you another (the last one at that shop...yes...I will own that one cuz I never should have trusted them again with anything, but was in a bind) but the ol' BP is high enough for now just recalling this one..

isellhondas

Easy for you to say what you would have done. I had no choice other than to suck it up. This was at the largest volume Sears Auto Center on the West Coast and I was 25 years old. I needed my job!

I don't know what their policies are now but at that time, if an unhappy customer got past me they were given whatever they asked for. Believe me, I wrote a lot of refund checks and the checks I wrote were a lot less than what they would have been if the customers went over my head.

Back in those days Sears did almost everything. We installed aftermarket air conditioning, rebuilt engines, front end work tuneups, mufflers and my store had one of the last remaining upholstery shops.

Now they do almost nothing. The guys that worked for me were good but they would have been lost on today's cars.

busiris

Growing up in south GA along I-75 in the 1960's, I can remember more than a few dishonest car repair shops/service stations in the area. A classmate of mine's father ran a transmission "repair shop" and was in cahoots with a couple of the gas stations on I-75. The attendants at the gas stations would convince travelers their transmission was about to "go", and refer them to the shop for repair or replacement, when there wasn't anything at all wrong with the transmissions.

I know this for a fact, because my friend's after school job was to get the removed transmissions steam cleaned and repainted, so the swapped out transmissions were "rebuilt" for the next "client". Looking back at it, I doubt anyone in his day's shop could actually rebuild an automatic, but they were pretty good at swapping them out.

Back then, a traveler was far better off to keep his hood closed when getting gas.

Another big scam was one in which some service attendants wore what appeared to be a wedding band, but on the palm side there was a small razor-sharp blade affixed to the ring which the attendant would use to cut into the drive belts for the engine accessories, and then of course, sell the guy new belts after showing him how close the belt was to failure.

My brother actually has one of those "rings" that he and 2 of his friends "relieved" an attendant of as he was quickly opening the hood to "check everything out", even after my brother told him to leave the hood closed.

If anyone wonders why some people are so distrustful of repair shops, there isn't any shortage of stories like the ones above to go around fueling those beliefs. And, I suspect its one reason there was so little resistance to the move to self-service stations. I'm sure a lot of people's repair costs on their vehicle went down after that occurred.

Of course, that was 50 years ago, and things have changed a lot since then.

Personally, I like to think people are honest until they prove otherwise, but for anyone to deny these things ever happen is to deny reality.

busiris

Yes, I remember back in the day where Sears guaranteed "satisfaction". I think a lot of that began changing around 30-25 years ago, and the change continued to accelerate as time passed.

When I was in my teens, Sears was an excellent choice to select for many auto repairs.

busiris

"Well, the burden of proof would be on the plaintiff to prove that the car was damaged while under your care. The only proof that you could of had would be a walk-around with the customer before accepting the car for repair... marking any dents or scratches. "

That's certainly the way the law works around where I live.

The more upscale dealership repair shops I've been to in my area all do the "vehicle walk around" procedure with the client before having the client sign off on the repair authorization, noting any pre-existing damage on the document before accepting the vehicle for repair work.

stever

Don't forget the smear of grease on the shock absorber scam - that was a big one on the snowbirds driving to Florida.

Picked up the van today with the new timing belt/water pump installed and met the owner's wife for the first time. 15 minutes later we had all regaled each other with our broken down car stories - even mechanic's cars break down now and then. Who knew? :-)

$525.92 for the work - no storage fee for having it sit on his lot for two weeks. ;-)

Oh, got a $1,300 quote for the "inevitable" Subaru head gasket fix although he predicted I wouldn't need one until around 160k (at 92k now). He loves Subarus; makes a lot of money off of them.

While chewing the fat, his helper came into the little waiting room/office and listened in. Nice small town lifestyle - work a bit, relax a bit, gossip with the neighbors.

isellhondas

Yep, "Satisfaction Guaranteed" was Sears motto and all a customer had to say was "I'm not satisfied" and they would give them anything.

Sears was a great place to work and to shop in those days. I was proud to work there and were it not for the excellent training they gave me and a boss that pushed me, I wouldn't have accomplished what I have.

Today, is a different story as they continue to decline for a number of reasons. Some self inflicted and others due to market forces.

Sad...

thecardoc3

Today, is a different story as they continue to decline for a number of reasons. Some self inflicted and others due to market forces

I'm involved with a project right now because they want to try and change how things are.

thecardoc3

The Barber.
This was an event that will forever be burned into my memory. It shows how circumstances can change in an instant and a repair event goes from something that we had some pride in providing to a customer to a “What Just Happened?”

Not long after we had opened our shop we had a fellow show up for some work on his classic car, that included making new transmission cooler lines. Being able to make them by hand and result in an aesthetically pleasing, while functional result was really important because the owner takes this ride to car cruises and likes to show it off. Some of the rest of the work centered on improving the quality of the engines idle operation, which would have essentially amounted to a tune-up back when this car was new.

The owner was thrilled with the results. He had heard about what we could do and deliver, and we met those expectations and even exceeded them.
A couple months went by and he approached us about his daughter-in-laws car. It was a Chevrolet Lumina 3.1 Liter and had a misfire and a severe loss of power. The diagnostics were pretty straight forward; two cylinders didn’t have any spark. This engine used one of the early versions of “C3I” or distributor less ignition. The module and coils were mounted on the left hand side of the engine below the exhaust manifold. You had three short plug wires for the front or left hand head, and three long wires for the rear head. One module controlled all three coils, and each coil provided spark to two cylinders. The system was widely regarded as a waste spark because the spark had to jump two spark plugs, one on the power stroke which fired that cylinder, while its companion was on its exhaust stroke which was simply part of the circuit path at that point. The center coil which provided the spark for cylinders three and six wasn’t firing. Using an oscilloscope and the low amps probe the coil current event for that coil was missing from the parade. The coil was removed from the module so that the module itself was tested and it was confirmed to have failed. Further inspection of components showed that the plugs were still the originals, and had eroded gaps exceeding one hundred thousandths of an inch. The specification was forty-five to fifty thousandths so it needed new plugs, and secondary voltage testing of the rest of the system showed that the remaining operational coils in the ignition system needed to produce over thirty-five thousand volts to fire their spark plugs.

As a tech these numbers are very significant because this car had a pattern failure due to neglect. The high secondary demand voltage causes the coils to fail, and then we have that secondary voltage get discharged through the ignition module which kills it. This car simply needed what we used to call a tune-up. But what brought them in the door was the final failure of the module when it completely lost two cylinders.

The estimate was written to reflect exactly what the failure was. It had to have the module and the one coil. To really run right it needed new plugs and wires, because that is what caused the module to fail. It is also a pretty good idea, but not required to replace the other two coils. So we had a good, better, best situation and add in some other routine items like the fuel filter, (also still the original) and the air filter and we were going to be able to give them back a car that would run the way that it’s supposed to.

The choice was all up to the customer at that point what he wanted to do. We don’t force people to buy things, we just lay the facts on the table and they decide. The potential problem that they had to consider is that the other two coils have been stressed just like the first one that had already failed and took out the original module. There would be a chance that should they not replace those coils they could lose another ignition module. The only difference pricewise was the second and third coil, the labor was the same since the whole system had to be removed and reinstalled to replace the module. The customer chose to replace all three coils and have the car properly tuned up. As part of that routine I also cleaned the throttle plate and reset the minimum air rate and TPS sensor adjustment at no extra charge. The total bill including the diagnostics was just over $750.

So the next afternoon the customer comes to pick up the car, and I know that it’s running perfectly. Basically I can’t wait for them to take it for a ride because with everything that was wrong with it when it came in they haven’t felt the way it’s supposed to run in quite some time. There was a woman, and another older guy with the customer. Out of the blue he starts jumping all over us because of what we charged the customer. It went from him insisting to see the slip from the parts store so that he could see what we paid for the parts, to seeing what the replaced parts were, and another whole group of demands. As I mentioned earlier, the customer brought in his daughter in laws car to have us work on it. The woman who came in was his daughter in law, and the old guy raising hell was her father. He claimed that he used to be the service manager at what was then a dealership that had sold out a few years prior, so he knew all about our price mark-ups. He grabbed the keys to the car and handed them to his daughter who was also screaming about the price and he told her to leave with the car. The customer who brought us the car, and was going to pay the bill that he approved said very little the whole time. The old guy even told him to just leave and we would have to sue him to get the money for the work that we did. At one point the old guy threatened to get physical when he wanted me to go outside across the street with him. He even threatened to call the police on us, for what I don’t know but he was doing everything that he could to make us change the bill. His reasoning was that he would have done everything that we did for just the cost of the parts and that would have been a lot less than what we were charging.

thecardoc3

Now what would you do if you were suddenly in a position like this. We had only been in business about six months, and this had never happened to us before. We always strive to make the customers happy, and gave him very clear choices and he took plenty of time to decide what to do. Looking back, what we should have done was call the police ourselves, and today that’s exactly what we would do about the threat of physical violence. In some ways I really wanted to oblige him in going across the street, but my luck would have resulted in that old guy probably having a heart attack or something stupid like that. No matter what I did or was going to do this job had just went from something to be proud of to simply an event that the quickest way to make it go away that we could find the better. So I cut the bill by $125 just to get rid of them before I finally did lose my temper and made things worse.

The really sad part of that is, doing that only helped to make it look even more like we were in the wrong and ever since that day the barber and this other guy have trash talked about our shop. I must say though if you ever believed in Karma you’ll appreciate the fact that about six months later a bad summer storm blew a tree down on top of the car and totaled it. But for me even that can’t erase the hurt that we felt when they walked into the shop. I can let the quality of the work that we do speak for itself and overcome their attempts to sabotage our shop, and in that respect what they think really isn’t relevant. But nothing can undo the fact that through the years they really have hurt us some, but at least from today on people get to see the other side of their story.

stever

The customer chose to replace all three coils and have the car properly tuned up.

Just curious if you get signed estimates when you do work. My guy doesn't but he knows everyone by first name ten miles in any direction.

thecardoc3

Signed estimates are not required in Pa. Verbal agreements are supposed to be binding contracts. The estimate was written out completely and the customer had it in his hands when he came back in to pick up the car. Our repair order matched the estimate to the penny.

We really did everything exactly right by the book, and it still was supposed to be wrong.

stever

Just seems like in your business that signed estimates would be really helpful. Otherwise you'll get into one of those he said/she said yelling matches. The shops in Boise tended to operate that way, but that's "big city" life for you. No idea if the law required it.

It's a bit confusing who your customer really was too - the classic car guy or his niece.

jipster

Sounds like you did what most of us would have done. Try to keep cool, offer them a bone to get them out of your shop, not have to sue. A fine line on when to call the cops. You were still a greenhorn from a ownership perspective. I assume you explained all the charges and that work order was approved by the barber, so other than call the cops, not much else could have been done. Don't know how long the tirade went on, but I sure wouldn't let someone scream at me for over a couple minutes. Let them blow off some steam, then end it.

thecardoc3

I assume you explained all the charges and that work order was approved by the barber,

Yep, to the penny. All three choices for the repairs were cleary outlined.

Don't know how long the tirade went on, but I sure wouldn't let someone scream at me for over a couple minutes.

They clearly planned to come in and do what they did. We didn't expect the outcome at all so it caught us totally by surprise. We have had others pull some stunts since then and we have been better prepared for them, but that one truly stole our innocence as new business owners. The tirade lasted somewhere between five and ten minutes, the damage from it persists to this day.

thecardoc3

It's a bit confusing who your customer really was too - the classic car guy or his niece.

Or the girls father, who was the person who was doing all of the yelling. I kept directing my focus towards the guy who brought the car in for us to repair. He was the one who we had provided the estimate to, and had approved for us to do the work. The way the other guy carried on one would have thought we simply did all of the work without any communication at all. If he really was the service manager at that dealership, I think I know why they folded.

srs_49

It's easy come up with snappy come-backs after the fact. Should have tried to turn the tables.

"What kind of father are you that would let his daughter's car get to the point where it was threatening her safety, since there is no telling when that ignition module would die."

isellhondas

You were in a no win situation here and I would have done the same thing under those circumstances.

I also would have made it VERY clear that I never wanted to see him in my shop again for ANY reason.

Sometimes (not often) you have to fire a customer.

andres3

Sometimes (not often) you have to fire a customer.
____________________

For what it's worth I've never been "fired" as a customer. Disliked? Maybe so, but never fired.

Now, I have fired the business from providing product, service, or work; but usually, I let things lapse from non-renewal, or just simply never visiting or using them again.

Of course, when they are going out of business I might go into their store to scavenge some "clearance" deals.

busiris

What's that old saying.... "No good deed goes unpunished."?

thecardoc3

http://www.searchautoparts.com/abrn/collision-news-general/california-case-calls- -flate-rate-question?cid=95888

stever

Heh, interesting that the case was pursued by the techs and not by irate customers.

isellhondas

I might have been the shop that fired you.

If I disliked a customer I would try to resolve our differences, If this wasn't possible I would have suggested that he take his future work elsewhere.

I don't need the headaches and stress that an unpleasant customer can cause.

Life is short...

thecardoc3

Heh, interesting that the case was pursued by the techs and not by irate customers.

Since when have customers cared about any of this beyond having their car fixed right, quickly, and/or cheap? Heck if they think about the techs pay at all, they only concentrate on the angle where if tech beats the book time they think they should be charged less, which only makes it even worse for the techs during any production gaps.

stever

Exactly, that's what makes them irate. If the job is done in half the flat rate time, the job should cost 50% less.

And no, paying double for a newbie to experiment on the car doesn't make customers less irate. :-)

thecardoc3

Exactly, that's what makes them irate. If the job is done in half the flat rate time, the job should cost 50% less.

So everything should just be billed straight time? Where is the incentive to work more efficiently, and to buy better tools, and get more training.

It was the shops not being able to deal with the kind of pricing pressure that you are suggesting that lead to them mistreating their own employees. For example, the better that I got with electronics and diagnostics, the less money that I actually made per week. I couldn't convince those who were writing the bills to charge correctly for what I was doing. In the end, it caused me to have to leave and go out on my own. Then competing against them in the market place hasn't been easy because the consumers still haven't equated free diagnostics as no ability to actually do it.

The time that the techs have been on the clock but not paid for often falls in the scope of either no cars to work on, or they were doing work that the shop didn't charge for. That's going to be some $16 an hour in restitution, and associated fines for as far as they go back. The techs not being paid was usually portraited as a customer service or satisfaction angle, or a competitive one. But no matter how you slice it, it was wrong for them to not be getting paid. In some places this will be so much money that it just might bankrupt some of the shops.

stever

Cheaper flat rate is the answer.

You know, just like the manufacturers are doing to the dealer shops for warranty work. :-D

crkyolfrt

they only concentrate on the angle where if tech beats the book time they think they should be charged less

And they'd be correct in feeling that way if they don't get a good long service life out of the repair. And a 1 year or 90 day wty doesn't cut it. An example I am thinking of ...two even...first being a rocker cover gasket re and re. And the second sealing an oil pan after it had been removed. A simple weeping leak due to aging gasket and/or sealant. If a mechanic does this in half the time, where did he save that time? I'd like to think that it wasn't from a far too incomplete surface cleaning before applying a bead of sealant. Sure, maybe the surface was denatured alcohol cleaned in the places it is easy to get to, but what about that back corner where even after cleaning there was some debris block oil that had seeped back down due to gravity over a place where you had already alcohol cleaned it. This happened while you answered the phone because you didn't have a phone-answerer out front. So..do you look carefully again with a strong light to see if the surface you had cleaned, (and let's say quite diligently even the first time around) and did you do that look using a mirror cuz the back corner is blocked by a chassis rail and while maybe you can see most of it, there is about 1.5" that you can't see. How about when you are about to move the oil pan up into place, and because that same %^&# chassis member is in the way, it jars your co-ordination of it into place, and one end you think (cuz you're more diligent than the next guy being very aware of every movement you're doing...rather than thinking about the clock...mighta actually been bounced up and smeared the sealant in that PITA area that is hard to see, let alone get to. Do you take it back outta there...get the light and mirror? Do you you see that it did smear it? Do you wipe it down and start over? Do you answer the phone again the 2nd time you redo the alcohol cleaning? Or maybe THIS the time that you say to yourself...SCREW IT! THAT'S GONNA HAVE TO BE GOOD ENOUGH...I AIN'T SPENDING ALL DAY ON THIS %&^# OIL PAN INSTALL!

All that extra attention takes time. Conscientiousness and diligence competing with the almighty $. For one to win out, the other must be compromised. If a tech is mentally constantly trying to average up every job he's doing, isn't he more $ motivated than quality/longevity motivated? The mech looking to save time might say..oh it'll be ok..yet in the real world if we could track that particular repair, we might find it started to seep again in year 3. long after the repair wty, but way sooner than the original factory seal started to leak.

You see my point? What I described above is one of the reasons I try to do as much of my own vehicle repairs that I can. NO ONE is as motivated to spend as much time as necessary to ensure that if they're in there to do a repair, they want to NOT have to be back in there 2 or 3 years later, than the owner. I don't want to have to be back in there for a good 7 or 8 or more years..or until I maybe am driving different wheels.

busiris

Is it just me, or has this forum evolved from one of "tales from under the hood" to a general auto mechanic gripe session?

There isn't an industry that exists in the US that doesn't have some type of competitive pressure on it... Constantly.

Example: Telecom. In the early 1980's, before the Bell companies were broken up, the average domestic interstate call costs a little more than $0.40/minute. By 1995, that same call costs the customer approx. $0.10/minute. I now can call a friend every Sunday in Germany for $0.02/minute. And that call is still profitable for the carrier.

Everything changes, including how cars are serviced and maintained... And how telephone calls are connected.

If one wants to talk wages, take a good look at the food service industry, where the federally mandated minimum wage is less than $3.00/hour for wait staff. And, those folks aren't making tips while preparing tables for customers, cleaning up afterwards, etc. If one has worked in the food service industry, they know there's a lot more to the job than just taking orders, serving them, and collecting big tips.

If one bothers to look much, its not difficult to find perceived "mistreatment" in any profession.

I'm no fortune teller, but I can say with confidence that any industry that doesn't adapt to the changing times dies. The auto industry is no different.

busiris

Over the time I've been reading this particular forum, a common theme (and one I happen to agree with, BTW) is the lack of entry-level and mid-level techs getting into the car repair business. Low pay is certainly one of the reasons. Job security is another.usa today immigration

Now, grab today's USA TODAY and you'll see an article on immigration changes. If you take the time to read it, you'll quickly see that companies such as Facebook are creating political support groups, funding them with millions of dollars, and targeting both parties. The goal is to increase the limit on high-level immigrants into the US.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/04/29/tech-companies-lobbying-imm- igration-facebook-family-visas/2121179/

You can bet their reasoning isn't to increase the benefit and welfare of the domestic worker.

So, before we go too far down the road of blaming the customer because he wants the cheapest price possible, lets also remember who is helping drive that car to lower wages and less job security.

fintail

I live in the middle of H1-B land, and a big theory here is that employers inflate potential jobs by posting positions that don't exist, and thereby go unfilled, so they can whine about needing more visas. This opens up the gates, and everyone knows the new arrivals will take less pay and worse conditions, so the positions tend to go there, and it drives down wages for all.

Socio-economic gap is greater than it has been since before the depression, and it isn't accidental.

stever

Well, if you revisit Post #1, Shifty included "how mechanics run their business" in the topic description. Some of us enjoy learning about that aspect too, even though idiot customers and pricing pressures are a common theme everywhere, but especially so in small businesses like mom and pop garages.

isellhondas

A botched oil pan gasket job is going to take a LOT less time than three years to start leaking again.

Some of the best mechanics/technicians I have ever known were very fast and efficient with the work they did. They got down to business, didn't take smoke breaks and they weren't afraid to spend big bucks on the right tools for the job.

Sometimes these guys could beat the flat rate times and sometimes not.

Mr_Shiftright

That's very interesting about the immigration issues. Historically, America has used immigration as a marvelous resource in nation-building, and I don't see why that should be any different today.

Americans need to "get real" about immigrants on a number of levels: One, they come here to make money, not because it makes them "free"--Most immigrants are just as "free" in many cases, where they come from, but, unfortunately, free to do nothing--including no work. Two, nations without the infusion of immigrant energy tend to stagnate (let's not point fingers but we know who we mean) culturally, and in some cases even economically---since they become so stagnant that intellectual talent LEAVES the country for better opportunity.

The worst possible outcome for the USA would be the above---a "brain drain" because other countries end up paying more money and offering more exciting opportunities in new technologies.

thecardoc3

Cheaper flat rate is the answer.

OK, so I'll start you at $7.00 hr flat rate. You start monday, make sure you bring your own tools.

stever

Okay boss.

Remember that you get what you pay for.

Ouch, just dropped a monkey wrench on my big toe. Your worker's comp is paid up, right? :shades:

busiris

One doesn't have to look very far back in history to see the real effects of what brain drain can do to a country (can you say 1930's Germany, for instance?).

And I take no issue to immigration, unless its done in a manner to import labor meant to work at a significantly cheaper price than what is currently available...at least, on a large scale.

What so many Americans don't seem to understand is the period between WWII and the mid 1970's was an aberration caused by the destruction (followed by the recovered industrial capabilities) of most of the industrialized world, excepting the US. The US really wasn't the power of the 20th Century until after the start of WWII, yet quite a few seem to think its always been that way.

It's not (or it shouldn't be) a surprise to hear the claim that the 21st Century is China's time. It's certainly got a lot going for it.

There are a lot more alternatives for educated people besides the US economy today than even 20 years ago, and if one researches the employment destinations of, say, engineering graduates today .vs. 1970, they'll find far more graduates leave the US after graduation than in earlier years.