A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

jipster

I believe what you say is true. Just saying that it "seems" like a fairly intelligent group we have here, so if one of us were to put our minds to it to become a master tech, I think they could/may be able to do it. The "natural skills" part... ?

So, we know what the problem is now. What's the solution? You don't think
expanding technical school enrollment through recruitment and better facilities will work. Because once they go thru school, find a job, then find out how much their career choice sucks after 3 or 4 years, they will quit.

When you write, "poor working conditions and pay", I immediately think "union". With no cohesive group or unit to draw from doubtful this could succeed.

Owners/management know they have all the power. The new tech buys his own tools, goes to school for two years... then they're pretty much locked in on what they're going to do with the rest of your life... much like a teacher.

I feel for the techs and salesman, trying to make an honest living, who are pawns to the company's bottom line... and made to look like the bad guy when things go wrong. But, with any career field one chooses to pursue, you need to know what you are getting into... or stepping into.

roadburner

FWIW, my wife had the very same hose repair performed by the local Mini dealer last summer. The total cost, parts and labor was $252.

Maybe our dealer is an aberration...

Over on the old Edmunds Inside Line blog the writers would usually take their long term test BMWs to Santa Monica BMW for service- and then squawk loudly when they got hosed for non-warranty work. Anyway, back in 2008 Santa Monica had just reamed IL for some relatively minor work on an E46 M3 they had in the fleet; at about the same time I had my local dealer perform an Inspection II and brake fluid flush on my X3 at a total cost of $374. Just for giggles I called Santa Monica BMW and asked them how much those services would cost. I was told that I was in luck as they had a "service special" going on. Their quote?
$1104.95
Only $730.95(295%) more than my dealer...

kyfdx

Santa Monica BMW sits on some pretty pricy real estate, though... :surprise:

But, they have a terrible reputation, irrespective of their prices..

roadburner

Santa Monica BMW sits on some pretty pricy real estate, though...

I'm not saying that their prices should match my dealer's- but to charge almost 3 times more for the same service? I hope they kiss their customers and send them flowers the next morning...

roadburner

I can tell from that comment that you have ridden with my brother. Stuff only enters his vehicles.... It never leaves them.

That would drive me nuts; my wife and I both strive to keep our car interiors free of wrappers, empty cans/cups, etc. In fact, I suspect that I keep the engine compartment of my 1995 Club Sport in better condition than most people keep their vehicle interiors:



Fortunately I haven't hit any potholes recently, so you will note that the oil filler cap is present and accounted for...

thecardoc3

Well, I can certainly see how less experienced techs could be "indoctrinated" by a dealership's behavior

It's not just the dealers. Aftermarket flush chemical companies put out some very convincing advertising that takes the form of continuing educational material. Heck if you watch some of the automotive TV shows, you'll see them pitching a lot of this stuff and its only natural for someone to believe them when they go to great lengths to appear knowledgeable and legit.

You can see the same techniques at play with the "Do you have to use the manufacturers oil story".

I think the main issue I have with examples like the guy with the Mini is we only get to see one side of the argument. My question boils down to this: If the vehicle is running as expected (ie., normally), wouldn't so much suggested maintenance raise a red flag?

Red flags often get raised even when everything quoted is legit. The Mini post makes me sick to think that the money thrown around like that might be for no real demonstrated need. If a need is proven, that's different which is the basis of BAR's Wallet Flush page.

On the other side of the equation, I've seen owners literally drive a car into the dirt, and only then seek repair. The dash can be lit-up like a Christmas tree and they ignore it, and they'll claim it was running "just fine" and, all of a sudden, it just died

Heck you haven't even seen the best part of one of those. They will only want to spend just enough to get it running again, and then a week later it's "Ever since you did XXXXX now it's doing YYYYY and I never noticed that before so you must have done something wrong"

isellhondas

"The clunk would be the sway bar links"

Well, the clunk could be the sway bar links.

It could also be a worn out ball joint, a shock bushing, a bad strut or a couple of other things.

Guessing can get expensive!

jipster

Well guessing can get expensive if you run a honest shop. If you run a poorly operated one it can make you money, at least in the short run.

busiris

Aftermarket flush chemical companies put out some very convincing advertising that takes the form of continuing educational material. Heck if you watch some of the automotive TV shows, you'll see them pitching a lot of this stuff and its only natural for someone to believe them when they go to great lengths to appear knowledgeable and legit.

The modern version of what used to be called "snake oil salesmen".

busiris

That would drive me nuts; my wife and I both strive to keep our car interiors free of wrappers, empty cans/cups, etc. In fact, I suspect that I keep the engine compartment of my 1995 Club Sport in better condition than most people keep their vehicle interiors:

I'm like you. All of my vehicles, with the occasional exception of my truck, have interiors that look showroom new. Even at their worst, they're neater than 98% of most cars my friends own. Clean engine compartments, too.

And, I did notice the oil cap was in place...LOL!

busiris

Only $730.95(295%) more than my dealer...

It begs the question... How do their sales prices on new cars compare to area BMW dealerships?

Or, do they try to just make it all up in higher service prices???

stever

Interesing angle.

Automotive Career Development Center

As is this tidbit:

"Stop giving more than you can afford to give to your customers. When you give more than you can afford, it is a sure fire way to dislike someone."

thecardoc3

Craigs a good guy, I had a chance to visit his shop last year but our schedules didn't jive as he was out of town, while I was in his town.

Keep reading things written by guys like Craig and you'll start to understand where I'm really coming from.

stever

I found him via this article:

Tips for Used Hybrid Car Shopping

Sounds like he has a nice work/life balance.

thecardoc3

The "natural skills" part

There are people born with the ability to work with and understand machines, just like there are people born with the ability to sing. Natural talent can take you a long ways, but they have to add serious training and effort and then they can do amazing things with their talents. However, people who are not born with the talents required can study and practice for their entire lives and only succeed in making others unhappy with their efforts.

So, we know what the problem is now. What's the solution?

Well to start off there isn't "a" solution, its going to take a number of changes to make a difference. One of which is happening as we speak all on its own. Right now there are too many shops, and not enough top techs. There are however way too many entry level techs. The loss of the easier work is making those jobs and people dissapear. A lot of the wallet flushing is an example of the last gasp of places trying to hold on against a tide that's trying to sweep them away.

You don't think expanding technical school enrollment through recruitment and better facilities will work.

As of right now the only thing that does is runs up a high tuition bill for a kid that won't really make any money for three to five years, and that's only if they work hard and continue to study after they graduate. BTW, auto-mechanics should be a four year degree these days, two years isn't enough to even cover the basics anymore.

Because once they go thru school, find a job, then find out how much their career choice sucks after 3 or 4 years, they will quit.

You probably saw me use the line as a trade, "We eat our young". Heck this trade consumes everyone in it. The five year retention numbers are abysmal. The kids who really have the talents that we (and you consumers) need often go back to school, get their engineering degrees and move onto much greener pastures.

When you write, "poor working conditions and pay", I immediately think "union". With no cohesive group or unit to draw from doubtful this could succeed.

There are some areas that have unions, but most have been broken and a lot of that came about because of illegitimate competition. The ony thing that would really make a difference is a full licensing plan with a real apprentice-ship program. The IBEW has a system that would make for a good blueprint. We would also need laws like the HVAC trade where if you aren't a licensed tech, you can't buy parts. But nobody wants that, they want cheap, no matter what the cost is.

But, with any career field one chooses to pursue, you need to know what you are getting into... or stepping into.

That's why that article deserved a response and you should see the thread in the iATN about it. The best thing that could happen to the trade is a complete collapse, where we run out of enough fully trained techs so that the cars go unrepaired for extended periods of time. Our shop right now is booked out two weeks in advance, and with me going out of town all the time, the list just keeps getting longer and longer. Everybody is bailing on the really hard stuff and fighting for a share of the easiest stuff and cutting each others throats for it. People are overlooking the fact that life is going to do what life does and the day will come when we will be gone, and no-one will be there to pick up the slack.

stever

":I know a kid who washed out of the IBEW journeyman program after two years. He was doing okay but he figured he could quit and make more money being a computer tech and wouldn't have to be on the bottom of the union call list (the main reason he got in the program in the first place was because his dad was IBEW).

But I think their apprenticeshipo program would be a good model to follow in general.

(Don't understand your "can't buy parts" comment).

thecardoc3

(Don't understand your "can't buy parts" comment)

Sales Policy

Identification is required of purchasers. Possession of Johnstone's catalog does not constitute an offer to sell by Johnstone or the right to purchase from us.

While some internet sites are changing the landscape and we have more access to the replacement parts for furnaces and home AC, go to a Johnstone near you and try to buy a new oil furnace.

stever

Well, hopefully I won't ever be in an area where my only choice is an oil one, but the quoted limitation is "wholesalers" only, not licensed HVAC installers. And some brands (Goodman) are available online.

When my heat exchanger cracked ~25 years ago, an EE friend could get me one wholesale. But the idea of trying to negotiate the hole in my crawl space where the gas furnace lived was too daunting so I passed.

That's another career that can get nasty - spiders and stinging insects in the crawlspaces or the outdoor units, installations in hot attics, lots of sharp edges, cramped working areas, call-outs in the middle of the night. At least you can put a lien on the house if you don't get paid and most houses won't be driving off.

srs_49

We would also need laws like the HVAC trade where if you aren't a licensed tech, you can't buy parts.

Maybe, maybe not.

When me and a buddy at work decided to put in our own central AC systems (including duct work and both the inside air handler and the outside compressor), we became R&S HVAC services, from Pittsburgh, and were putting in system into our moms' houses. We did some research, made some phone calls, and then walked into the local Carrier dealership with something like $5,000 in cash and had two system loaded into the back of the truck in less than an hour. No questions asked.

Another coworker took a simple on-line test and got his HVAC license. This allowed him to buy R-22 refrigerant which was being phased out so we could keep our older AC/heat pump systems charged.

stever

Oh yeah, when I got a slow leak in my old heat pump unit in Boise, I almost took that test so I could buy a kit. Didn't want to screw up and vent any more refrigerant though.

isellhondas

Well, YOU were the one guessing in this case.

That was my only point.

thecardoc3

That's probably one of the best articles that have been done around her in a while. Seems the writer actually paid attention to Carolyn.

The Prius isn't perfect, however. Coquillette says that many second-generation Priuses have a tendency to burn oil if the original owner wasn't diligent in getting oil changes at the recommended intervals. They don't leak oil, she says. They just burn it because carbon build-up from dirty oil prevents the piston rings from sealing properly.

Gee, now where have you seen that before? Toyota specs are for a 5W20, but if you really understood all of the details about GM's dexos 5W30, it falls into the range allowed for 5W20s on the cold starts. Toyota has been allowing a switch to 0W20 and part of that is to reduce ring deposits from the oils. There is a 5W20 dexos specification sold in Canada. If we had that product here it would solve the ring sticking and oil consumption issue.

When I'm doing the basic maintenance class on the Prius engine we spend a lot of time explaining the Atkinson Cycle engine that it uses. The wrong oil and especially too much oil really causes issues with them.

stever

Fortunately all we have to do is take our cars to the service department and all will be well.

busiris

That guy's experience with his oil change is why I've always been a bit skeptical about dealerships that advertise free oil changes "for life".

thecardoc3

So what, he didn't read Rons Article ?

If the readers are to believe what Ron wrote then he's fussing about nothing.

So what do you do about the contradiction? He's got it correct, the dealer is not servicing the car correctly, but what the dealer is doing is supported by Ron's article.

kyfdx

"In the event that the dealership tries to void your warranty over the use of non-manufacturer oil, know that the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act will protect you. "

This is a great plan.. if you keep an attorney on retainer.... :surprise:

busiris

Consumers just need to make sure that any alternate oil they use is comparable in quality to the automaker's specified oil. Many oil manufacturers, including Valvoline, are so confident of their product that they offer their own warranty against engine damage that their products might be alleged to have caused.

Finally, make sure you know the proper viscosity for your car and change the oil at the proper interval.


Yeah... That's the rub...

thecardoc3

In the event that the dealership tries to void your warranty over the use of non-manufacturer oil, know that the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act will protect you.

Even the wrong oils, and poor maintenance intervals can get most cars beyond the warranty period before trouble shows up. The warranty question, as in whether it will be warranted or not if it breaks isn't the perspective that the consumers need. It's the fact that the average car won't get the 200K-300K that the engine should really see and that ends up having a reflection on trade in values.

Mr_Shiftright

The dealer can't actually void your warranty--it's the factory that makes that decision. So when this subject comes up, you go right to the horse's mouth, because the dealer does not underwrite the warranty, the automaker does.

roadburner

That guy's experience with his oil change is why I've always been a bit skeptical about dealerships that advertise free oil changes "for life".

My Mazda dealer gave me free oil changes- although I have to provide the Mobil 1 if I want synthetic(Mazda doesn't require synthetic oil for the 2.3 turbo). No complaints; they will give me one every 5k but I go every 7.5k based on my UOAs- plus there is the issue that the dealer is located @120 miles away(I won't let my local Mazda dealers touch the car since they refuse to hire employees with ethics and/or opposable thumbs). I do get case assignments nearby so I'm usually able to get the work done without having to make a special trip- so it's all good.

michaellno

I try to get my wife's Mazda CX-7 (also with the 2.3L turbo) to the dealer every 5-7K for oil changes. I have them use a semi-synthetic blend.

roadburner

I'm sure that semi-synthetic is more than sufficient; I'm just OCD...

jipster

Took the car in today for oil change, made an apt. for next week as car has been showing these bizzare symptoms: increase and decrease in power that is noticeable in tachometer. RPM's will rise and drop slightly... feels as if you are in a motor boat going over waves (i.e you speed up or slow down without changing throttle position). Gas pedal is held at constant position when this happens and when accelerating... more noticeable around45mph. Happens at all speeds though . Idle is fine. No check engine light. Which do you think is more likely... fuel pump, fuel filter, fuel injector, throttle position sensor, plugs/wires...? Any input, suggestions or guesses would be appreciated as I have apt. to bring car in next week. Severity of symptoms has increased the past 6 months. :confuse:

qbrozen

too many possibilities. I'd guess a sensor ... but it could be 1 of any number of sensors.

michaellno

I'm sure that semi-synthetic is more than sufficient; I'm just OCD...

I'm gonna have the dealer do all the oil changes so in case the indescribable awful happens with that turbo engine, I won't have jmonroe's problem with warranty coverage.

jipster

My money is on the throttle position sensor.

obyone

jmonroe had warranty issues? Was that on his Hyundai?

roadburner

jmonroe's Hyundai had an engine failure. The dealership disassembled the motor and remarked on how clean the internals were. Hyundai's corporate denied the warranty claim because of one typo on jmonroe's DIY records. He has since been instrumental in costing Hyundai several sales- to the point where the dealer that screwed him has offered him a sweetheart deal to get him to be quiet. He told them to go pound sand.
I'd do exactly the same thing if a manufacturer hosed me- BMW included...

jipster

What was the "sweet heart" deal?

I bought a Hyundai Veracruz after Monroe's failure to dot his I's and cross his T' s. One isolated incident shouldn't keep someone from buying a car because some guy on the internet had a bad experience with a particular manufacturer.

That said, if it was me...would do the same thing.

roadburner

What was the "sweet heart" deal?

In jmonroe's own words.

thecardoc3

RPM's will rise and drop slightly... feels as if you are in a motor boat going over waves (i.e you speed up or slow down without changing throttle position). Gas pedal is held at constant position when this happens and when accelerating... more noticeable around45mph. Happens at all speeds though

What you have here is enough information for a tech to drive that car and experience the symptom, and then start to evaluate the data coming from the processor to find the source of the symptom. It would be easy to get trapped by the 45mph comment as this would have been the approximate speed that a TCC (torque convertor clutch) would lock up in the past on other vehicles, until you add the "happens at all speeds though". The TCC won't normally apply/disengage at all speeds, the operative word there is "normally". A false partial apply/release due to a hydraulic issue could create the symptom, although that's a condition that I've only found in a different vehicle line.

No check engine light. Which do you think is more likely... fuel pump, fuel filter, fuel injector, throttle position sensor, plugs/wires...? Any input, suggestions or guesses would be appreciated as I have apt. to bring car in next week

Suggestions ? Sure. Give the details of the symptom to the service department so that the technician can experience the symptom and then go find it.

Guesses, bad idea. They will only serve to distract the technician from concentrating on the vehicle. You don't have any codes so the problem hasn't exceeded the limits designed into the software in the car. That doesn't mean that it can't be detected by an experienced technician but you really have to allow him/her to use their training and skills to get to the answer. Let's take the suggestion of the TPS (throttle position sensor)as an example. The fact that it could be responsible means nothing until it is proven to be responsible. As a tech I would have to ask myself how could I prove/disprove if the TPS , or the APP (accelerator position sensor) were the source of the toruble. One of the first things I could do is try driving the car with the cruise set (at various vehicle speeds) and see if that changes the symptoms any. If driving with the cruise on makes the symptom go away, then the TPS cannot be responisble for the symptom, but the APP could then be more suspect and have to be looked at closer.

The tech will have to monitor fuel trims to see if they vary with the engine surges, spark timing, TCC command, EGR flow, and VCT (variable cam timing) (If equipped with EGR or VCT). The tech will have to monitor the TCC commands and slip speeds in the data and start to build a picture in his/her mind exactly what the car is doing that results in the surging. Things like a torn plenum tube could be causing changes in the measured airflow resulting in incorrect timing and inital fuel pulse width calculations. While the TPS could cause such a symptom, it generally does it at one particular throttle position after years of wear, and that means it is very speed dependent, your comment that it does it at all speeds makes it less likely to be the cause.

Severity of symptoms has increased the past 6 months

My Escape will display the exact symptom you have described. The feel of the car as if it is a boat going over waves is quite annoying and it does it one or two tmes a month.

Those one or two times a month I happen to be on I-90 just outside of Buffalo a couple of miles south of the 290 split and it's the road itself that causes the sensation in my Escape. Neither my Explorer, nor my Mustang dolphin like that, only the Escape does. It would be pretty hard for anyone to diagnose that without that information, and so that leads right back to making sure you give the shop/tech the information they need to experience the symptom, and then let them figure it out.

thecardoc3

Finally, make sure you know the proper viscosity for your car and change the oil at the proper interval.

Did you ever notice how much "Raw, Raw, Raw" and fanfare people get around automotive sites when they boast about using some product and the specifically ignore that advice?

But then when someone does experience a breakdown, the only thing that matters is who wins and who loses the blame game. It was interesting reading some of the linked threads and its sad to see anyone experience a major failure. Hyundai is well known for bouncing warranties if someone fails to service the car correctly, and yes that includes in generating the proof that the car was serviced correctly when necessary.

Consumers just need to make sure that any alternate oil they use is comparable in quality to the automaker's specified oil.

By now people who have been reading what I shared should realize just how difficult that part really is to accomplish.

Many oil manufacturers, including Valvoline, are so confident of their product that they offer their own warranty against engine damage that their products might be alleged to have caused.

Does this depend on whether the product chosen by the consumer was chosen correctly or not for a given vehicle? Think about that for a moment. It really wouldn't be Valvolines fault if a consumer chose to use one of their products incorrectly would it?

In jmonroes case some of the information shared is meaningless. What exactly failed in the engine and what was the cause of the failure? Citing that someone mentioned that it was very clean inside is irrelevant. He could easily have been choosing a product that simply failed to provide sufficient boundry layer lubrication, while it still managed to not break down from crankcase acids. That would allow metal to metal contact and subsequent wear and component failure, while it would still be clean inside. Then we have the second question, as noted companies like Valvoline publish that they will guarantee someone's engine if they have a failure. Why wasn't that avenue approached after Hyundai's refusal to warranty the failure?

roadburner

By now people who have been reading what I shared should realize just how difficult that part really is to accomplish.

I just don't understand what is so hard about correlating the standards provided in the owners manual to what is available off the shelf. I have no problem finding/using the proper oil for each car in my garage; three of the BMWs use an LL-01 oil(either BMW's 5W-30 or Mobil 1 0W-40), the 1975 gets M1 15W-50, the Mazdaspeed takes M1 5W-30, and the Jeep takes M1 10W-30. The Mazda and Jeep just call for an oil “Certified For Gasoline Engines” by API of the proper viscosity range. The only car that isn't getting the exact viscosity specified is the 1975 2002; according to the OM, the M10 motor calls for 20W-50 or 20W-40 above 15F and 10W-30, 10W-40, or 10W-50 when the temperature is "Usually Below 50F." Later M10s allowed 15W-50 from 105F to -5F year-round, so that is what I-and a lot of fellow '02 owners-use.

And if I flip the Mazda for an Abarth(fingers crossed), I will definitely use an oil that meets Chrysler's MS-6395 spec- especially since the MultiAir technology depends on oil pressure to accomplish its variable valve timing.

isellhondas

All any of can do is guess and every time I guess, I'm usually wrong.

It could be a number of things.

busiris

I just don't understand what is so hard about correlating the standards provided in the owners manual to what is available off the shelf.

While you don't, it doesn't take much web surfing and forum reading to understand a large percentage of car owners treat their owner's manual as if it were written in Latin and contained quotes from Mein Kampf.

You can't match oil specs of a bottle on a shelf if you don't know what the specs are for the car.

For far too many, including some "professionals", oil is oil...

busiris

When I read stories such as this, I always remain a bit skeptical.

Until I know both sides of the story, IMO, that's all it is... A story.

Not saying it didn't happen exactly as described, but I've found one or two falsehoods on the inter-web in the past.

At least, that's my opinion.

busiris

Consumers just need to make sure that any alternate oil they use is comparable in quality to the automaker's specified oil.

By now people who have been reading what I shared should realize just how difficult that part really is to accomplish.

I'm not sure I really understand that comment.

If one takes the time to read their vehicle's documentation, the information is provided. So, in that reference, its not at all that difficult.

What I see far more evidence of is the simple lack of effort many vehicle owners put forth in learning ANYTHING about the functions and operation of their vehicle.

Certainly, one can find examples of obscurity here and there (Fiat Abarth engine oil, as an example), but I've owned GM, Chrysler, Toyota, BMW, MINI, Nissan and Ford vehicles in my 58+ years, and I've never found it difficult to follow the manufacturer-specified lubricant suggestions. And, I've never experienced a lubrication-related engine failure.

Now, if sometime down the road after the car has been purchased, the manufacturer changes the specifications and makes no attempt to inform original owners, seems to me that's a great class-action even waiting to happen. You can't blame someone if you change the rules of the game and don't tell them about it.

Side note: After Nissan started getting several CVT complaints, I received a letter from Nissan that reminded me of the correct transmission fluid, and extended the warranty on the CVT. The point here: Contacting owners after he sale regarding service information is possible, and in at least this instance, was actually done.

obyone

It's all in the details

busiris

Many oil manufacturers, including Valvoline, are so confident of their product that they offer their own warranty against engine damage that their products might be alleged to have caused.

Does this depend on whether the product chosen by the consumer was chosen correctly or not for a given vehicle? Think about that for a moment. It really wouldn't be Valvolines fault if a consumer chose to use one of their products incorrectly would it?

In jmonroes case some of the information shared is meaningless. What exactly failed in the engine and what was the cause of the failure? Citing that someone mentioned that it was very clean inside is irrelevant. He could easily have been choosing a product that simply failed to provide sufficient boundry layer lubrication, while it still managed to not break down from crankcase acids. That would allow metal to metal contact and subsequent wear and component failure, while it would still be clean inside. Then we have the second question, as noted companies like Valvoline publish that they will guarantee someone's engine if they have a failure. Why wasn't that avenue approached after Hyundai's refusal to warranty the failure?

In this, I completely agree.

Frankly, I've never met a single person that has even attempted to use such a warranty, and I remember years ago when Quaker State made similar guarantees. IMO, these guarantees are far more "fluff" and far less substance, but that opinion is based solely on my personal experience, or lack thereof.

busiris

It's all in the details...

So true. Odd thing is, when I read stories such as this, most of the details are never supplied.

Wonder why that is....