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Mazda Protegé



  • protege_fanprotege_fan Posts: 2,405
    I dunno...why haven't all manufacturers adopted side airbags? Likely costs, etc. I dunno. Why doesn't everybody have internet in their home? Why isn't everybody using broadband? Etc, etc.
  • mdaffronmdaffron Posts: 4,421
    Think I'll have a beer.
  • dsm6dsm6 Posts: 813
    "Then if all that improvement can be had for $30, how come the auto manufacturers haven't adopted this "advancement" into their technology?"

    You answered your own question within the question - because all that improvement can be had for $30, which is approximately $30 more than they'd be willing to spend on a per car basis due to the fact that it wouldn't help them sell even one extra car. Have you ever heard of someone buying a car because it comes with a high end air filter as stock equipment? Besides, their parts agreements are with companies that want to keep selling you more filters, not just sell one lifetime filter and that's it. K&N doesn't have the same piece of the market, so they've chosen a different path.

    Speaking of which, I'm trying to understand the point with the comparison to two and a half years' worth of standard air filters. You do know that these things will last the life of the car, right? The life of the car is presumably longer than 2.5 years - probably by a factor of 5 or more. Given that fact, I'd wonder why not to put one in.

    The improved breathing just makes the case better. It's kind of like how you argue that a clean air filter is better than a dirty one because it allows better air flow. Well, compared to a K&N, the stock filter is "dirty" - while offering no better protection against contaminants.

    BTW, I've never had trouble, nor heard of any wide-spread problem, with the oil from K&Ns getting into throttle bodies, etc. If such a problem is significantly wide spread, then that IMO would constitute a reason not to use one, but cost or the fact that they aren't used by the manufacturers IMO doesn't.
  • mdaffronmdaffron Posts: 4,421
    ... to do that?

    Do you really think an oil filter costs THEM $6.50? Or a timing belt $60?


    And don't you even think for one minute that being able to tout improved fuel economy wouldn't sell cars. Read back through even this discussion -- the ONE thing we'll readily give the Civic and Toyota guys is that their cars get better gas mileage.

    If Mazda saw a way to raise the Protege's gas mileage even ONE mpg closer to its competitors, and could do so for a cost of maybe $10 per car (heck, even $30, I'll give you all of it), I think they would've chosen to install K&Ns in every Protege instead of spend obviously more bucks to change the rear brakes from drums to discs -- something most car buyers couldn't give a you-know-what about.


    P.S. I'm not stupid; I know what a K&N filter is and how long it lasts. (I also know they require maintenance a standard air filter does not.) All I'm saying is two things: First of all, faced with a purchase that will last you at least a year, are you gonna spend $12.95 for a one-year part or $30 for a "lifetime" part? Second, sure the car will go 150,000 or 200,000 miles if taken care of. But how long are YOU going to keep the car? I don't plan on keeping my Protege much past 100K, if I go that far. Most people don't drive their cars more than five years. So the K&N's $30 probably equates to about $64.75 in standard filters, if math serves me correct. My argument is kinda like the one we all face when we buy our cars ... why spend $284 a month for five years ($17,040) when we could pay $15,100 outright to own the car (in my case)? It's more CONVENIENT to go for the smaller amount, even if you wind up paying more in the long run.
  • vocusvocus Posts: 7,777
    The engine sounded a little 'throatier' than it did when I first got the car. But I couldn't handle the increased fuel consumption.

    In addition, I know alot of people who have had similar issues in their VWs with the K&N filters.

    The filters used to be more expensive, but like everything they came down in price because they aren't the new thing out anymore.
  • protege_fanprotege_fan Posts: 2,405
    They've been around since 1967.
  • dsm6dsm6 Posts: 813
    Please indeed.

    Auto industry bean-counters speak of cost increases on the scale of $.50 and reject them based upon cost-benefit analysis (see Ford cost-cutting as a ref). As well they should in this case because any cost increase at all would be totally wasted given that there would be absolutely no benefit to the manufacturer if they were to use K&N air filters.
  • mdaffronmdaffron Posts: 4,421
    K&N has been around since 1967.

    K&N makes your engine sound "throatier." (You're not the only one who's said this, Paul; from what I've read for the past seven or eight years, most people don't buy K&N for fuel economy; they buy K&N to complement their coffee-can tailpipes, lowered suspensions and "Type-R" hood decals ... hmmm, what's that word I'm looking for?)

    Put those two together and we find an accessory that came out right in the middle of the muscle-car craze.

    Now, why can't I find a blacked-out rear-window louvre for my Protege ...

  • protege_fanprotege_fan Posts: 2,405
    You're saying that because a company has been around since 1967, that it means their products are outdated? That's the implication I'm reading from your statement.

    What's this? Mazda was started back in 1920?? Oh wow...that must mean Mazdas now are outdated. Good logic, Meade.
  • dsm6dsm6 Posts: 813
    I bought my pro es based in part upon how it handled - including breaking performance, the superiority of which over its competition due in part to the fact that it comes with four wheel discs.

    I'm not alone.

    The pro's niche relative to its competition is very clearly derived from its sporty image. An image helped by four wheel discs. An image for which the choice of stock air filter doesn't matter to anyone anywhere.

    Having established the car in this niche, now comes the cost benefit analysis from the consumer's side - the consumer wants rear discs, so how much will it cost to get rear drums swapped if discs are standard? Too much - it would be much better to get them as standard equipment. The consumer wants K&N style performance (whether that be sound, hp, mpg, etc.). How much will that cost to switch if K&Ns aren't standard? Nothing? You mean I'll actually save money by switching?
  • manavimanavi Posts: 150
    I put one into my 2001 Protege about a year ago. I remember it was about $30.

    I can say that after I put it in I could tell a difference in the engine at higher revs, like over 3500 or so. The engine revved a lot smoother.

    Now, I have not noticed any difference in gas mileage or acceleration. But, the improvement to what I consider quite a raucous and unrefined engine was worth it for me.
  • mdaffronmdaffron Posts: 4,421
    I didn't even infer that its products were outdated. What I'm saying is that they were invented during the muscle car era, when everyone was looking for ways to "supe up" everything on cars -- whether it was for performance or just show. C'mon. I'm not out to get you.

    There's another aspect about the difference between K&N and stock air filters.

    I can buy a new $12.95 Purolator filter every year and pop it in my filter canister. Simple. With a K&N, I have to take it out, wash it, and "re-oil" it. (I just read this at K&N's website.)

    While I admit I have no idea what you wash it IN or WITH, I'd have to say that the sludge and used oil you're washing down the drain or leaving in the groundwater offsets K&N's so-called "environmental friendliness" gained from keeping paper air filters out of landfills (which are designed to handle decaying paper much better than the soil in our back yards is designed to handle oil and detergents).

    But I do know that it's a lot less hassle just to buy a paper filter and pop it in than it is to launder and "re-oil" a reusable filter. If you don't agree, let's have a timed race and see which is more convenient. I'll even add you the three minutes I'll use to pull into Advance on the way home and pick up my new filter.

    No, I'm not saying the K&N is outdated. (I think Paul said that.) I'm saying it's unnecessary.

  • mdaffronmdaffron Posts: 4,421
    "An image for which the choice of stock air filter doesn't matter to anyone anywhere."

    Thank you for summing up my point exactly!

    With that I'm going home, satisfied that Protege will be No. 1 tomorrow because of my newest nasty debate started and a job well done.

    I await my congratulatory letter. :D

    It's 81 and sunny out. Time to plop into my cruddy-paper-filter-equipped, 53,000-miles-on-its-OEM-brakes, rear-drum-equipped 2000 ES and zoom happily home.

  • protege_fanprotege_fan Posts: 2,405
    Just another agree to disagree thing in the Protege family :D
  • vocusvocus Posts: 7,777
    One other thing I didn't much care for was how messy the K&N was when I was installing it. The oil was all over the place inside the package, the box it came in, and on the filter as well.

    And I didn't say the K&N was outdated, I said it was now priced lower because they're more commonplace.
  • maltbmaltb Posts: 3,572
    Now you did it. For disagreeing, you'll be tomorrow's all knowing king Tut, regardless of logic.
  • protege_fanprotege_fan Posts: 2,405
    That's just crazy talk! be on-topic (now that's a crazy idea!) the new intake I installed in my Pro is great IMO. Much better than the stock intake.
  • Did you disconnect the battery to reset the engine control computer after you installed the K&N? If not, the air/fuel ratio may have been incorrect, explaining the lowered fuel economy.
  • manavimanavi Posts: 150
    I don't remember reading anywhere in the K&N air filter package I bought about needing to reset the car's computer after installing the filter. Where did you get that info?
  • protege_fanprotege_fan Posts: 2,405
    "10. Will I need to make adjustments to my vehicle after I install a K&N filter or intake kit?

    On fuel injected vehicles the original equipment manufacturer (OEM) computer and emissions control system will adjust for the increase in air. The OEM computer will adjust immediately if it is reset. Removing the battery cable from the battery for 15 minutes or more should reset it. On some carbureted models you may have to richen the mixture when switching from a paper filter to a K&N air filter or intake kit.

    The computer should adjust over time, but it's apparently immediate if you disconnect the negative terminal on the battery.
  • chikoochikoo Posts: 3,008
    What should be the voltage ouput when the car is in idle from the Alternator, as measured between the two battery terminals?
  • protege_fanprotege_fan Posts: 2,405
    I've been doing some searching...It sounds like it depends on what's on (ie. lights, fans, etc). From what I can tell, it should be somewhere around 14.5-14.8 V.

    Other forums will likely have more info than here.
  • chikoochikoo Posts: 3,008
    I would appreciate if somebody can back up what PF said.
  • protege_fanprotege_fan Posts: 2,405
    Mind if I ask what the reason you need the info for?
  • manavimanavi Posts: 150
    I guess I won't bother unplugging the battery now since it's been about a year since I installed the filter.

    I still feel comfortable recommending the K&N air filter to anyone who thinks the engine sounds too rough when revving high. But, don't expect any significant gains in MPG or acceleration.
  • chikoochikoo Posts: 3,008
    because at idle, the tach is not steady, and drops and fluctuates when i put in in R(with the rear lights coming on) and drops further when I switch on my lights.

    Anyway I got a battery and alternator tester from Radioshack while coming home for $5.99. It shows the Battery as fine, Alternator as weak.

    So the question is:
    Is the repair of a weak alternator covered under the Mazda Extended care warranty?
  • mdaffronmdaffron Posts: 4,421
    To install this filter?

    Hmmm, we'll have to add time for reprogramming all of our radio presets and clock to that installation time ...

    Tell me, do we have to do this each time we wash and wax the filter too?

  • the_big_hthe_big_h Posts: 1,583
    i don't check the forum for a day, and all this madness surrounding my little filter popped up?

    oh the drama!

    good work keeping the post count up Meade :-)
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