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Jeep Liberty

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  • Does anybody make distributors anymore? I would assume the timing is computer controlled. With advance and retard settings changed based on engine load and road speed. I really don't know for sure. I'm counting on trading ours in on a new one before it needs any real maintenance. I'm thinking an 06 Renegade.
  • john81john81 Posts: 60
    Before I go into the theory of axle torque, my 2006 Jeep Liberty received a new bottle of Prolong and Synthetic Pennzoil with about 100 miles on the Odo. I asked the guys at Jiffy Lube to do a quick filter test on the waste oil from the factory. I have to say that I'm glad I did (change the oil) because we found some mighty large metal fragments. Now large fragments, in a way are good, because they haven't been broken up into smaller fragments. So we cleaned it in time.
    Lexus, in one of its "adds" indicated that its axles generated 3800 ft/lbs of torque. Well the Liberty with 3.7 liter with NSG370 manual Tx with 3.53 rear end generates 3432.15 ft/lbs of torque. If you go to www.mustangsandmore.com/ubb/DanJonesTorqueVsHP.html, the writer goes though a very lengthy mathematical analysis of gears and ratios.
    If you look on the "spec" graph for the 3.7liter, at 2800 RPM, generates about 218 ft/lb of torque at the flywheel and 120 horsepower. Now, as part of Jeep's victory cry for the Liberty, the 3.7 liter can generate 210 horsepower at 5200 RPM. Now unless you race cars, I can't imagine myself shifting gears at 5200 rpm.
    Gears and rear end ratios are "mechanical advantage" to take 218 ft/lbs of torque at 120 horsepower and convert it over to Rear End axle Torque. In my analysis to change the 3.53 to a 3.21 shows little difference in engine or axle performance, except in savings in gas milage. At 2000 rpm, I will be going 60 mph with a 3.53 rear end, but with a 3.21 rear end, I'll be going 65 mph. The first gear's only purpose is overcoming inertia when pulling a trailer.
    I have to agree about the Distributor. But if I replace an "electrical" pick-off to read engine rpm vs. dynamic function of the crankshaft at different speeds, I have to wonder - What is the life span of this electrical pickoff? What happens if this device becomes wet? How about exposed to electrical shock? Could a faulty battery cause a short in the whole electrical network of the car to cause a complete motor malfunction? This is why I hate computer controlled vehicles. Most electronics today are disposable if a problem occurs, but what about a car? What am I supposed to do if a technician just throws up his hands and says, its broken and I can't fix it. There has to be a level of liability vs technical ability the Jeep people have to incorporate into their products, or else we are just buying garbage.
    So all the problems occuring out there are all "chip" related. So every wire has to be metered, all associated chips need to be changed, the motherboard needs inspection or replacing, the main computer module needs replacing. The battery needs inspection to ensure no internal short. This means alot of work for the technician. Do you think he's able to complete such a huge task? I'll let everyone out there put their service departments to the test to see if they are up to the challenge to fix their own cars.
    As for me, I'll fix my own, thank you very much.
    John
  • I've not driven one, yet, but am curious about the performance of the Liberty with the 3.7 V6. When I had the cruise control set on our '03 Grand Cherokee (with the 4.0 I6) it wanted to down-shift (sometimes quite forcefully) if I even said the words "grade" or "slope". Driving in anything remotely resembling "hilly" country was a pain in the rear. Does the 3.7 V6 do any better?
  • john81john81 Posts: 60
    Yes, the 3.7 liter has more power, the 4.0 liter had more torque.
    My 1997 Jeep Cherokee 5 spd was not fond of hills either. Downshifting was almost a way of life going across the "hills" between Virginia and West Virginia.
    An automatic 3.7 liter would leave my Cherokee in the dust any day when going up a hill, or anywhere for that matter. The weight difference between the Grand Cherokee and Liberty depends on what options you have, (in particular, how many skid plates.) The Liberty is light enough to allow the 3.7 to increase its thrust to weight ratio, but I am sure the Jeep Commander 3.7 liter is a bit overburdened.
    So far, I am very pleased and is very fun to drive. I looked at the CRD, but due to diesel prices and random unpredictible nature of the 2.8 liter engine, I was glad I purchased the gasoline 3.7 liter.
    Give it a good workout and see what you think.
    John
  • Thanks, John. In hindsight, I wish that I had taken a more serious look at the 3.7 instead of being so quick to opt for the CRD. The diesel is fun to drive - performance-wise - but I'm not at all pleased with the MPG and the price of fuel. At this point my plan is to "tough it out" for 18 months to 2 years and then go with the new Dodge Nitro (or whatever it's going to be called) with the 3.7.
  • Does anybody know the purpose of the little plastic piece in front of the air intake? Its mounted in front of the inlet (prior to the filter box) and looks like it contacts the rubber seal on the underside of the hood. Any information on its purpose is appreciated.
  • st34st34 Posts: 1
    I have an 05 sport 4x4 3.7 6spd man, 8.25 chrysler rear axle with 3.55/1 gearing and am happy to say I cruise 70mph at 2600rpm. The automatics that you are referring to do have a lower overdrive ratio but they also have a higher rear axle ratio 3.73/1 limited and 4.10/1 on the renegade. I too had issues of concern before buying mine. It seems that you have to give up on the limited slip differential and or the upgraded "select Trac" transfer case that offers full-time four-wheel drive if you want the manual transmission. I assume this is do to a warranty concern on the manual clutch, which is the only part of my drivetrain that isn't warranted under the 7/70 protection plan but instead only covered for 10,000 miles. I plan on eventually having my cake and eating it too after my warranty expires. I have already priced a detroit true trac lsd and installation at a local ring and pinion shop (around $600.00), and plan on harvesting an NV242 out of a limited from a bone yard and giving the old girl a sex change. Then I believe I will have the best of both worlds.
  • john81john81 Posts: 60
    I went back and looked at the automatic and sure enough, the 3.53 wasn't an option. Around town, I am getting about 18-19 mpg and keeping the RPM under 2200 when I shift gears. I have noticed a "tip over" RPM where horsepower and rear end torque meet, which is about 1900-2100 RPM. If I put a 3.21 ring and pinion in both differentials, then that tip over might move to 2200-2500 RPM which would allow me to use the lower gears more often. Now, is this a good thing or bad thing?
    I think I'll keep the 3.53 gearing. Now the performance chip, if you read its claims, it only reconfigures engine performance when under loads or higher RPM. Under normal circumstances, it doesn't alter normal chip operation. For my situation, I would not have much use for it.
    The Prolong and synthetic oil has brought my idle RPM to a smooth 500. I can really tell the difference between regular oil and synthetic.
    I wish more people would change to a manual tx. People would be surprised at all the additional computer programming when configured with an automatic transmission. There are additional linkage problems, water in the automatic transmission fluid like the 2002 Jeep Liberty and the additional problems like bucking, RPM racing and gears which don't seem to change at the correct RPM. But, if you still want an automatic transmission . . . . . Don't say that I didn't warn you.
    John
  • faroutfarout Posts: 1,609
    If you feel 22.7 in a recreational area is not good, especially when you consider the Liberty CRD weighs almost 4,300 lbs, in my book thats's pretty darn good. Diesel here is now 2.49 and gas is 2.10. So I will bet my 22.7 mpg is cheaper to drive than your gas 3.7 and its 16 to 17.7 mpg. Reconsider join the CRD and improve the environment, and increase your money spent per mile of fuel.

    Farout.
  • I began hearing the same kind of rattle when the weather got hot (bought my '03 in Jan.). It stopped when I took a bungee cord and hooked it to the bar where the right rear latches and one of the tie down hooks on the floor. Haven't heard that noise since then.
  • john81john81 Posts: 60
    I'm glad that the American public is on this "mpg" trend and not getting the largest vehicle out there.
    Manual transmissions mated to diesel engines are only offered in larger trucks. Why is that? In performance cars with diesels, only automatics are offered. I like a performance vehicle with an manual 5 or 6 spd. If I attached such a manual to a diesel, I would blow the engine. Why? The diesel engine red lines at 2500-3000 RPM. The computer constantly monitors transmission to engine RPM for maximum performance while not causing the engine to eat itself. Any fatal flaws in computer programming, temperature, moisture, wiring problems, sensor or proble malfunctions will cause the whole programming to seriously degrade or crash. Yes, you might get better gas milage because the diesel engine is constructed differently. I would also like someone to bring back the old rotary engine. I like performance with a manual transmission.
    The Jeep Liberty CRD seems plagued with problems, far too many problems to warrant such a purchase. Once Jeep can guarantee absolute quality, maintenance and reliability analysis on their CRD's, I'll enjoy reading those CRD complaints and glad I purchased a 3.7.
    John
  • john81john81 Posts: 60
    Ohio's biofuels initiative 144 has only 2 gas stations with E85 (ethanol). You probably noticed that corn oil or vegetable oil has gone up in price at the supermarket. I have to ask why all the biofuel attention, when in fact all our agricultural produce is going overseas, like to China.
    So, has any American politian noticed that we are the corn "cartel"? Demand to your congressmen and senators that no more corn goes overseas till we honor our biofuel supplies to ease the gas shortage. Ohio's biofuel legislation has only produced a "token" gesture, so where has all our tax dollars gone with only 2 E85 gas stations are open?
    Jeep is all American and so should our biofuels!
    Keep our corn here in the USA!
    John
  • I went to the jeep site and built a Liberty Renegade and noted that a limited slip differential (LSD) was not an option. I did a search on the Jeep site and nowhere did it talk about a LSD on a Liberty (it had it available for Wrangler/Commander/Grand Cherokee). Did they do away with it? Any info is appreciated.

    -Sting
  • My daughter has a 2002 V-6 Liberty with an auto transmission. She is telling me that the only place that offers air filter replacements and battery replacements is the dealer. Based upon her experience there is no after market supplier of these items. Is this true, what is your experience?
  • Somebody's blowing serious smoke up somebody's skirt. Stop by Advance Auto Parts (among others). They've been carrying after-market filters and batteries for years. The one thing which you won't find offered by anyone except DCX is ATF+4 transmission fluid. That is proprietary.
  • I have recently changed my handbrake shoes; I have adjusted the shoes tight with the shoe adjuster and then backed-off 4 or 5 turns on each adjuster but the when I apply the handbrake it will not hold the vehicle.I have removed the centre consul to view the handbrake lever setup but I don't see any way to adjust the handbrake cable??
    Any help would be appreciated.
  • rock1rock1 Posts: 12
    I also have a 2003 Liberty and when I asked the dealer to tighten the parking brake, he brought out the mechanic's liberty manuel, and it states the parking brake is not adjustable. You must replace the cable.
  • There was some discussion about this technology transition in the CRD forum. It tweaked my interest enough to go back and look at the Jeep literature (DCX publications).

    Unless an actual jeep mechanic corrects me, I am under the impression that jeep has rolled (no pun intended :blush: ) their traction control package and anti-roll into an all-inclusive brake-computer-wheel slip sensor package. While not THE same system, the bragging of the new 4WD system on the Commander is a place to go for the overall theory of how the system works...especially when it comes to understanding what happens at the axles (not the transfer case)

    As I understand it, the computer/sensors, notices abnormal wheelspeed (slip) and applies THAT break which then sends the power to the other wheel on the axle. I think/assume the same system controls the rollover protection. While Liberty owners may choose from Full to Parttime 4WD on the transfer case, the Commander with the new 4wd system can go one step further and vary the amount of torque sent to either end of the vehicle at the transfer case.

    I would bet a tank full of diesel that this was done to prevent a computer and mechanical (roll-over and traction control) system from working against one another. With the computer controlling all of it, this is no longer an issue. While I have an '05 with Trac Loc, I would not consider it a downgrade (as some have) to go from an anti-slip to an anti-slip, anti-tip system. To me, it seems that DCX has put in a lot of time and effort to provide additional safety without sacrificing performance. My next CRD (10 years and 250k later ;) ) will have that technology plus other technology upgrades as well.

    There is one testimonial on the CRD forum on how well this new system worked. See post 2439 of the Jeep Liberty Diesel forum for this testimonial.
  • Let me ask what may (or may not) be a stupid question. What is the difference between 4 Wheel Drive and All Wheel Drive (and I hope some smart aleck isn't going to say that it depends on how many wheels you have!)
  • steverstever Posts: 52,683
    Check out the 4WD & AWD systems explained discussion too.

    Steve, Host
  • I have a late year 2003 Liberty. The other day while riding home from work I head a high pitched violin sound fading in and out in the front. Thougt it was wind noise. The next day while riding on the county highway the "Part-Time" light came on. The problem with that was that I did not have the Liberty engage in 4WD High. Then when I took a turn it felt as if the Liberty was really in 4WD high (binding). I slowed down, let the jeep roll, pull up on the lever as if to put the thing in 4WD High, and the "Part Time" light went off. Ok...let me get this straight. Lever down, 4WD High engaged... pull lever up as if to really engate 4WD High and indicator light goes off. I moved the lever down, hopefully disengaged 4WD high, pulled off to the side and shut the car off. Thought I had a confused idiot light in the dash. But alas, when I turned the jeep back on, went into drive and started back on the road the idiot light came back on, indicating that the Liberty was in 4WD high. Then, the light would blink on and off and not go on at all when 4WD High was supposedly engaged. I just went home, parked in the garage and looked at my 7/70,000 warranty. I have just over 65,000 miles, so if this is some transfer case problem, it should, it better, be under warranty. I don't go off-road, just use the 4WD High for lousy snow/ice road conditions. No abuse here. Any clues on this one? :confuse: Thanks.
  • caribou1caribou1 Posts: 1,354
    I once drove a GM car that had the anti spin feature. This does very well for people who are afraid of icy roads and traction is really optimised. There is no issue here.
    Comparing to my Liberty that has 'only' the Selec-Trac and ABS, when I decide to turn on an icy road I can feel it sliding and adapt my speed accordingly. What I fear is excessive confidence one gives to this type of system can significantly reduce the natural reflex of choosing an 'acceptable' trajectory in case of danger. We all tend to pay less attention when nothing ever happens and the driver becomes a passenger when the computer takes over...
  • faroutfarout Posts: 1,609
    John: The Wankel engine you refer to was first produced by NSU a german company. they stayed in business until 1968 and was bought out. The rights to the Wankel engine now belong to Masda, and they have a sports car that has the rotary engine you would enjoy.

    There were 8,333 CRD Liberty's made in 2005. What you have read in the Diesel Liberty forum are a very very small percentage of CRD owners. Having has both a 2005 Limited 3.7 and the 2005 sport CRD, I can speak from genuine experience. My CRD is every bit as reliable as the 3,7. The CRD rides much smoother, and is not as jittery on the curves and stright a ways. Quality is equal, and this enging has been in use in europe for more than 11 years with a 2.5 version. I would expect when your 3.7 is just plain worn out at about 150,000 miles my CRD will be going strong for maybe 250,000 miles. (it darn well better!) Good luck, John!

    Farout
  • faroutfarout Posts: 1,609
    Caribou1: I think you have a excellent point! I do not yet trust the computers to control braking and several other areas of saftey when they use one safety device to control more than one area. I know Jetliners have had more complecated systems for decades that eventually went to the automotive industry. I still [non-permissible content removed] my CRD with the Trac-Loc Dif. ABS and Selc-Trac. For me this is all I want for now!

    Farout
  • caribou1caribou1 Posts: 1,354
    I can add that jetliners have redundant (n+1 or n+2) circuits powered by several UPS systems and our vehicles only use one. The positive thing about our wiring harness is the silicone sealing of all the wires into the connectors of the engine and transmission controllers. If you inspect your ABS connectors and cables I think you will discover the potential risk of relying on these thin and loose cables that easely get in the way of the suspensions. I had to reposition mine during 2nd service because they were starting to wear near their exiting position from the engine compartment. The isolation was rubbing against the inside wheel protection, and pinching occured near the suspension rubber block.
  • john81john81 Posts: 60
    I had a trusty Dodge Ram 4x4, 318 5 spd in 1986 which brought me some great enjoyment along the Outer Banks of North Carolina. During one summer, I had to replace the two back tires from the friction, heat and wear generated from driving in the wet and dry sand. I can't imagine any how any newer model sensors or measuring equipment could survive in such conditions. Never mind the saltwater getting into sensative wiring or the sensors themselves. Which brings me to salt and sand on the highways during the winter.
    Yes I would rather have the mechanical limited slip differential like I had in my Dodge Ram and my 1997 Jeep Cherokee. Putting too much reliance in computer equipment is just asking for trouble, no matter how good you are in bad weather. Once the system fails, you're pretty much done.
    I would take a part-time 4 wheel drive system over a full time all wheel drive configuration.
    As far as the CRD Liberty's, if Jeep's quality assurance was on the ball, none of the diesels would be experiencing problems such as they are. What doesn't makes sense, the old WWII jeeps lasted almost forever. The older jeeps are still around, yet are constructed with only mechanical parts with little computer assistance. It's almost as if the Jeep's engineers took an idiot pill to fabricate a "weak link" in its jeep line, that of the computer and all the associated sensors.
    It's not the type of engine, or the type of differential, what is at stake here is the level of competence in design, construction and assembly. This is where the Japanese, South Koreans and Germans are wiping us (Americans) all over the mat. GM is finished as far as I'm concerned, Toyota is about to hammer in the last nail in GM's coffin.
    Jeep is a spirit, that of adventure, reliability and to overcome any obstacle. This notion of pioneerism is about to fall to the wayside.
    On this Thanksgiving, I want to be eating turkey in 20 years, not Ramen noodles, squid and kelp. So Jeep, take warning, will you be in existance in 20 years? Stop taking those idiot pills, and hire a mechanical engineer instead of an electrical engineer.
    John
  • uv4meuv4me Posts: 22
    I have a 2004 Liberty in which I would like to mount an XM stereo. Has anyone out there mounted a Roadie XT in their Liberty and where did you place the mount? Thanks
  • faroutfarout Posts: 1,609
    john: As far as the CRD engine goes this is a well proven engine used ny many companies and perhaps more than a dozen cars, vans, trucks, etc. In fact Dc on Oct. of this year just received it's 500,000 engine from VM Motori SpA. They have been making diesel engines back as far as 1947.

    When you factor in only 8,333 CRD's were made for US use and that the level 2 bin 10 was reached this is a significant achievement. The CRD has a dealer lot life of 23 days. That is very excellent compared to regular Liberties.

    The Transmission is also used with the Dodge "HEMI" in all the places a "HEMI" is put in. Does that not say something a little more assuring? Can you say "HEMI"? I consider the "HEMI" the most hedonistic proof of manhood anyone has ever come up with. How much more wasteful can anyone become?

    Farout
  • john81john81 Posts: 60
    If you do a google search on recalls for the Jeep Liberty front brakes, you find that the engineers installed a heat shield between the rotor and the yoke assembly which holds the ball joints. Need to see if a similar heat shield was fabricated for the rear rotors.
    I still can't believe I'm still talking about the CRD's. I have to stress that its not the engine or the type of transmission, its the quality put into the product which translates to market share. Right now, Jeep does not have market share. I have to ask why? If you look in Edmunds used cars, you find 72 CRD's (2005) for sale. Wow, 72 people who represent a very powerful force against Jeep's effort to portray reliability and durability.
    Jeep's rise and fall will not depend on the CRD. Why was the Gladiator project cancelled? Was it because it had a CRD or did we absolutely need another pick-up truck. Toyota is blowing everyone out of the water with every type of pick-up and suv imaginable.
    So, Jeep needs market share. I would say if Jeep would buy back those 72 CRD's, you now have 72 potential buyers who might stay with Jeep. I would have purchased a Commander if it had a manual transmission, but No, it had to stay with an automatic.
    The design of the CRD Liberty might be improved by starting talks with Cummins and incorporate the 4B (3.7L) diesel (which would be rather big, considering, but an engine around the 3.0 liter size) because Cummins represents more of an American image. Market share is about Americans buying American.
    The NSG370 manual transmission was designed too high (in gearing). The final 6th gear is .84, but should have been .78(.) But look at all the other SUV's out there, only the Jeep Liberty has the performance with a manual transmission - That's market share.
    Jeep Liberty CRD, the only vehicle out there with a diesel engine - That's market share. This is a good thing, I am trying to tell you. But, if Jeep doesn't come to grips over these 72 people, you can just kiss those 72 people away and all chance of getting back your original market share. The CRD is rapidly becoming a "cult", and in their haste to make production quota, messed up royally. Tell that to those 72 people.
    And do you think Toyota will make a diesel here in the US(because they do in Europe)? After what happening to Jeep, not a chance. Just watch. Toyota will stay away from the diesel concept like a hot potato. Especially when the new diesel environmental regulations go into effect for ultra low particulate and sulfur emissions in 2006.
    Its all about market share.
    John
  • Just got my 06 Liberty..it's awesome..but it doesn't have the Trac-Loc Limited Slip Rear Differential. It was replaced by ESP (Electronic Stability Program) and All Speed Traction Control. Does anyone know how these new features work ? Do they work as well as the LSD? or should and can i get a LSD installed on the O6 Libby? Any insight would be appreciated. thanks !
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