Toyota Engine Sludge Problem

zielinw

A modern well-maintained engine should last over 200k miles without a major overhaul. At least that has been my personal experience, and I have had many cars with in excess of 200,000 miles on the engine.

Now, we have engines that start smoking in under 100k miles? (This again is assuming proper maintenance). Are we going back to the 1950's, where a reasonable life on an engine was less then 100k miles? I hope not.

It appears to me that unless Toyota provides a reasonable long-term fix to this problem, I will look for other vehicles to keep for the long-term.

canc

You said that cars with 5000-mile oil change had "buildup". Is "buildup" normally expelled with an oil change? If not, do more frequent oil changes flush buildup?

I'm starting to think that this forum is getting to be a crash course on "Oil changes 101"!

catgem

of all claims for my sludge of 2001,which I interpret to mean that I can not go back(after I get my$4600) and sue them for the same past problem,such as adding on pain and suffering. If I have future problems,that would be different. What do you all think?? Some people have said I should sign nothing,but to me a large corporation doing this (protecting themselves)seems normal....

opera_house_wk

I have an old 1927 Kohler generator and besides oiling everything it has to, there is a tube that pours oil onto the head. This constant stream was to prevent oil cooking and to provide a steady flow to wash everything down. Now you have ultra thin oil and minimal flow rates to get that extra gas mileage. Anyone who has looked at a newer engine run with the valve cover off can easily see the minimal amount of oil. Some oil is just going to bake and a significant build up can be acceptable. Sometimes the results are not as predicted. I don't see why that is so hard for people to believe. As Capt'n Ron said, "Anything that's going to happen is going to happen out there." Back in the 20's they tried to build things to last forever. Today, engineering is always testing the limits. Every engineer knows that the average owner is a little slack on maintenance. Even on airplanes there is an acceptable level of failure.

armtdm

In my 55 years on this planet and multiple cars and the 5 I now service I have yet to see this cooked oil on the filler cap or neck of any engien I have looked at. Yes, everything may be okay but it indicates to me that the source of the sludge is the engine and the cooked oil/grit that some are seeing is the indication that there is a problem. My 92 Camry, this oil filler neck/area is a clean as a baby after a diaper change with 7500 mile oil changes (once went 15,000) using synthetic. This grit should not be there, oil should not be cooked on the plate just inside the oil filler area period. If you ahve this I would highly recommend the 3000 mile changes.

However, Toyota needs to find the source of the problem. Saying 3000 mile changes is not the solution. Find the problem and fix it!!!!! AND REVISE THE OWNER'S MANUAL!

cliffy1

There is a lot of hearsay going on here. Don't take one dealer's service advisors story as indisputable fact. Also, don't take the BG additives as an official fix. I'm not saying to totally discount the stories either, but consider the sources. Just because it is posted on the Internet, does not make it true.

cliffy1

I think this whole oil cap thing illustrates why Toyota chose the word "gel" in describing this situation. Sludge can mean different things to different people. Any person who has seen a "sludged" engine, knows that the condition is very different from the carbon build-up on the inside of the filler cap. It really is more of a gel. It has the consistency of a thick pudding, and can be as much as 3/4 of and inch thick.

zielinw

catgem -- You've probably heard the statement opinions are like ******** (everyone has one). But, IMHO I would take the pragmatic approach and sign the papers. Getting the fix paid for and behind you would probably be a great relief.

cliffy1 -- Good point about hearsay on the internet. But, again much can be learned by listening and pondering.

cholowicki

I am glad that Toyota is finally willing to pay you for the repairs. Pain and suffering is a difficult thing to try and get compensation for, even if you were to go to court or join the class action lawsuit. Didn't you say that Cobb provided you a loaner while you were fighting this issue? If so, then your incidentals were minimized, you will get your money back, and you can get on with your life. I am envious of your situation, to be honest. I would like to be done with this mess, too. As long as they aren't asking you to sign away any rights for future problems (God forbid!), I would sign it. You have been at this longer than I have, and during much more stressful circumstances.

jj35

The sludge/gel that was visible in my Sienna when my oil cap was removed was black, baked chunks of oil. These chunks were also visible when the valve cover was removed, but there was also a goo all over the engine that was a dark blackish brown - I would not call it pudding color or consistency. I would say it was darker and thicker than pudding. I cannot think of anything else off the top of my head with a similar look or consistency to help me describe it. Actually, something like a thick black hair "gel" is probably a more accurate description. So maybe calling it Oil Gel is more descriptive than sludge. Toyota just diagnosed it as sludge when I got it. In the late 70's/early 80's I had a Chevy Monza (yeah, right, I know how to pick cars! had a Pinto before that!). The Monza had a gasket fail and water was getting in the oil. Now, that sludge was more like chocolate pudding in appearance and consistency.

wain

I had some hard dry stuff under oil cap ( 4 cyl ) but when valve cover came off, spotless.
So oil cap might be missleading.

jimmuh1

My regional rep called me today and gladly pronounced that my car would be covered by the SPA. She went on to say that all that is needed to be done is have the car taken to the dealer I prefer and that the work would be covered by Toyota. First, a dianostic would need to be performed to find out what needs to be fixed but that is covered by the SPA and all I would be responsible for is the tow.

So, I called the local dealer. Not the dealer who originally diagnosed the car but the dealer that's not far from the house and has a decent reputation. I spoke with their service manager who I informed of what was going on. He put me in touch with one of their tech, as I wondered how long a wait I was in for. I spoke with him for a bit, let him in on what I was told and he said he would then call the rep as he was in the dark, never having seen the car before.

He called back and I'm livid (tho' not at him). Apparently, the repair does NOT include incidentals (fluids, belts, gaskets, etc., as these are considered maintenance items.) We spent a few moments on the phone and we actually bonded a bit. The Toyota techs aren't very happy with this SPA...I inferred that he suspects there is more to it than we or they know and he said he
has never seen proper documention on 3,000 or 3,500 mile intervals. I pointed out that it was a bone of contention with many owners as
every dealer we spoke to said the same when asked about oil change intervals. I think he has another beef in that Toyota has been telling them to tow this bottom line all along and now with the SPA these guys are looking like crooks and
shyster's when they have to go back to the customers. I agree with him there, I know that not every dealer is the same and some are actually concerned. I told him the condition of my oil (the baked, crusty, cooked, oil) when it happened and he said that he knows of three ways this would happen....overheating, low oil pressure, and leaving the oil in too long.

I called my rep back and was quite irate because she said that Toyota would reimburse the repair and nothing was ever mentioned about 'incidentals'. I asked her why she did not
specify what 'incidentals' were and if it hadn't been for a very helpful tech I would have gone through the roof when presented with a bill. We went round and round and she maintained that they don't know what needs to be done on the car so they can't give me an estimate of what I would be responsible for. I then asked for a listing of incidentals that I could share with other owners who go through the SPA. I told her that if a dianosis is needed that leads me to believe a proper one wasn't performed. (I know this as all they did was pull the valve cover, nothing else.) She told me that I didn't authorize a tear down (which would cost even more mone) back in October so no one knows what really needs to be done.

So HOW did they deny my warranty? I asked her that to which she had no answer. I also asked how come I was presented with an invoice for
$4900? Why does my car REEK of gasoline? Why wasn't that mentioned? She claimed to have not
know about that and I called her on it...I know exactly when and where I was when I told her...it hadn't been but three weeks ago. I told her I had
an invoice for work already and I know from my 'detailed' invoice I needed a new engine. I told her the were too many differing stories between the various owners and somethings not right.

Needless to say, we didn't get very far.

So, I called the tech back and told him I'm going to have the car taken to them to have a detailed invoice outlining EVERY thing that needed done and what I will be responsible for.

But the one thing I cannot wrap my head around is the simple fact that my problem was not researched as it should have in the beginning.

I know this seems like I'm looking a gift horse in the mouth but in my opinion there's something wrong in the way this has been handled all along.

Jamie

davedave1

means that each has to decide the validity of a comment by a Toyota employee. Dealers are trying to sell cars, and if a customer brings up 'sludge' they will work the discussion around to maintenance issues, not defect issues. Whatever testing they did, who knows how relevant it is to the average driver or even it it was BS.
Every engine can and probably should be expected to have some measure of buildup. If oil changes are done before 5k, perhaps you can expect a normal life of a toyota engine (one that is not damaged specifically due to sludge). Of course a 2k oil change interval would virtually 'guarantee' no buildup, but is it warranted.?
Yes, I considered the toyota rep's comment to be an admission that their stated maintenance intervals and definitions of severe service are too lax. But I don't expect them to admit to it formally. I just take it as a point of information and try to maintain my Sienna accordingly.
As I noted, I consider the PCV to be a crucial point of maintenance, because I had a chrysler engine sludge up BECAUSE of a PCV clogging up at about 43k mi. Of course these are different engines, but I believe the comparison applies.
In a related curiousity, in catgem's case, did the Texaco station normally stock toyota brand oil fiters? Toyota admitting that the engine had the original (toytoa) filter on it seems curious at best. Or did i read this one wrong?

fxashun

Anyone else not buyin' "it can happen to any engine" line? I doesn't seem to be hapnin to "any engine".

rayfbaird

Unless a written contract specifically states that it will cover lost profits, pain and sufferring, or other incidental damages, you can only cover the cost of your actual damages, in this case, a repair.

I am puzzled by Toyota not wanting to cover the engine during the normal warrenty period if you maintain the oil change interval. However, unfortunately it is no different than if they say replaced your transmission.

webguyster

I was at my local dealer today for my follow up trim work, again I was reassured I dont have sludge. While waiting for my 2002 Toyota Camry LE(Very nice, for a loaner, and didn't get a Corolla this time) track car, I was observing the ongoing line of people coming and going, and every advisor was pulling up maintenance history on everyone coming in. Not just last few months, but they appeared to be going over everyones records, very well, and reminding everyone "how important maintanance is!" Nothing specific, but just a " HOW IMPORTANT MAINTENANCE IS!",to people who,seemingly have no idea, or concern about this situation! I was considering the new 2002 Camry, after having 1/2 a day 2 drive it, but I will wait for the outcome of this forum. I think this will make Toyota dealers, more customer focused, as I personally don't believe I would have had any of my trim stuff covered, and/repaired under warrenty(2 years of asking), had my inquiry to Toyota, and the dealer not also involved the SLUDGE topic! This time around, I did not get, wear and tear, but "the part is here, bring 'er in tomorrow!"

bob57

This has probably been asked before and answered but...if you know.
Where are the two engines in question made? Japan and shipped for final assembly here or...?

wain

and asked before - whats the root cause and has it been identified and fixed??????

catgem

the only thing missing is Pilot!! Thank you guys,for your legal input...JJ,I will be most surprised if you just get a check in the mail...any corporate atorney can tell you that it just don't work that way!! Right or wrong has NO bearing...why should Toyota send you a check,and THEN have you join a suit against them for previously "undiscovered damages"? Think about it. If it sounds too good to be true,it usually is. I could be wrong,but for me,money talks!!
Cholo,I hope things work out for you...keep us posted.

mcgreger

which I know can be dangerous sometimes; with all this talk about sludge and maintenance and possible engine flaws or defects.... If Toyota did purposely or inadvertently design and manufacture two of their best selling engines with the result being the sludge problem; then why did they "hound" me for four years to bring my car in for an incredibly minor recall. In '95, I bought a new Tercel and within a short period of time I started receiving recall notices. Basically Toyota said that under certain cold weather conditions, ice/snow could get stuck in some air intake opening, and could make for starting problems. Well, I never had any problems even though I live in the northeast part of the country; so I never brought my car in for the recall. Finally, in '99, while my car was in for a brake inspection/adjustment, the dealership did the recall work-I think it involved something like a guard or deflector placed over the opening to keep the ice out. Probably took all of 5 minutes and cost $.50 to make. Now the point I'm getting at is this: if Toyota can go to all of the trouble and expense to find this very minor defect, and fix it, in a rather low volume vehicle line; why would they let such a major screw-up as this get pass all the engineers, designers, QC people, etc. and just leave it out there waiting for the bomb to go off. Just doesn't make any sense-maybe that's what so troublesome about this problem; its pretty illogical for such a practical and logical company like Toyota to do something like this.

cliffy1

Good point. It wouldn't make sense would it? So, is it just possible that they are correct about this being a maintenance issue and not an engine issue? That would be the logical answer to your question.

jimmuh1

The costs of in labor in parts alone are too great to just easily accept. $.50 is a lot different than $5000.

And again, why these two engines? Why only in this four year period? Why are many of the victims two car families with no problem with their other vehicles?

Jamie

maltb

Because it was man dated by the NHTSA regardless of Toyata saying it was a voluntary recall. Manufacturers don't recall things out of the goodness of there hearts. They either are required to do so or avoiding product liability suits.

That's just the way it is.

ramblinon

and at some point Toyoto has to, or is required, to admit a design problem, the line the Assistant Service Managers are dishing out in large helpings to person after person every day is not going to sit well. The VA Beach Dealership has, I believe, 5 or 6 Assistant Service Managers (Service Writers) who are busy giving out the Company line day after day. I was informed by the Service Writer who I was dealing with, in hushed tones, that nobody was happy with the manner that the Company announced the problem. Now that I think about it, a regular service order was not written up, instead a single Xeroxed page had the info that customer requiring about check for Gel/Sludge per Letter. I never told her I had received a letter as I had not. When I got my 99 Solara SLE keys back from the cashier, and paid for the oil change, it was on a normal Express Oil Service sheet. No mention of the Gel/Sludge. To protect myself, I am going to write a letter to Toyoto expressing my concern.

I just wish this whole thing would get resolved quickly. While I felt confident at the Dealership now I'm not so confident.

mbt1

Upon visiting a Toyota dealership recently, I noticed that the oil filler area of a brand-new 2002 Avalon also had a black coating. Perhaps this was by design; if not, it was formed by even the meager miles on the odometer.

webguyster

Can using the wrong weight oil, ie., 10w30, instead of 5w30, possibly cause sludge in these engines, as 10w30 seems to be more the standard at oil change places? 1 of 3 times I had my oil changed somewhere other than Toyota, I watched as the kid grabbed the 10w30 hose/nozzle, and started to fill my engine. I stopped him, after a few seconds, and he drained and refilled. I pointed out to him the filler cap say 5w30, and he said it doesn't make a difference. Kind of like when Toyota put green coolant in my car instead of factory red. I had it flushed and filled as although they may be similar, or even chemically the same, as the advisor told me, they are not recommeded to be mixed.

dtownfb

They didn't design the engines with a flaw on purpose. You have to go back some 500 or so posts and someone explained the modifications they made to the 1997 re-design of the engines to lower the emissions. (I'm sure someone will remember better then I can the post. It was posted by a mechanic) But it involved replacing a part and the engine burning at a higher temperature. Anyway, the part was subject to possible failure based on it's design which didn't allow for proper oil flow and the higher temperature slowly cooked the oil. Or something to that affect (Somebody help me out here). I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong. Toyota simply didn't cover all the bases when they tested the engine with these modifications. It happens all the time in design work, whether it be a car, do-it-yourself home improvement or even designing dams. Things go wrong that you didn't expect. that's why they have recalls.

Which is why it baffles me tht Toyota is responding the way they are. Oh well. I'm sure there will be more press on this once Consumer Reports gets a hold of this story.

canoe2

Sludge happened almost all Toyota and Lexus lines. Now Toyota replaces the new engine for defective one (not fixing the problem). Probably Toyota hopes the 5 years warranty would be over soon and the problem will be yours. There are few engines which were carried from 2001 to 2002, even the new engines may have the fundamental problem (sludge)... Toyota has not issued any recalls for 2002 engines, probably they would not show sludge problem after 1.5-2yrs. It's still long time to go, Toyota would not be worry for now. It looks like it's not easy to fix the problem without impact to emission, power or fuel consumption. The solution for now is to bandage the problem by changing oil often, and use high quality oil.

john339

Ipost 3763 - I agree, this board should be renamed Toyota Sludge/Gel Problem or something more accurate.

I haven't seen any other makes reporting problems on this board. The issue that is being discussed is the current problems with Toyota engines, how Toyota is responding to it, and how consumers should deal with the issue.

Anyone else agree the board name should be changed?

wain

I would vote for it even tho i love Toyotas.
I wonder what the cause is.

No Honda stories/problems on sludge that i have heard of.

rayfbaird

Just thought you'd like to know. I was listening to older Cartalk sessions on the Internet. Tom and Ray gave an award for the best coverup to GM. They had a power steering issue where it refused to turn right in cold weather. They were able to cover up the problem for 18 YEARS.

Thank heaven for the Internet.

Remember that this issue affects 2 aspects of Toyota Sales. Future sales of new cars, and the famous Toyota Premium. Used car purchasers pay usually between 3 and 5 thousand more because of Toyotas reliability. It's no surprize to me that they want to characterize this as a good will gesture rather than an actual design flaw.

I believe that present owners of Toyotas shouldn't panic. Pull of one of the valve covers. If it's clean, change the oil every 3-4 thousand miles and don't worry about it.

wain

yes but what is causing it and has it been fixed?

the nation wastes a lot of oil at 3000 mile changes compared to 4000

canc

If you haven't seen any Honda sludge problems, you're not looking hard enough... they were recently documented here by Brentwoodvolvo.

im_brentwood

Well,

That was to illustrate that ANY car CAN sludge.

This recent debate has gotten me talking. So I've been talking to a lot of people that I know about it inthe business. Liek a guy I know, Juan.

Juan is one of the bigger Wholesalers in the Caribbean. So we were talking about it last night, I mentioned the whole sludge issue on the Internet and he looked at me like I was on a combination of Crack, LSD and PCP.

"Sludge? In Toyotas? You kidding me?" (insert laughter here).

He deals in hundreds of Toyotas a month. As I said, All high-milers. And he LOVES that 97+ Camrys. They're a big hit in Central and S America and the Caribbean.

Figure HE deals in a solid 100+ of them a month, all he does is fly all over the southeast and buy em up. Any cheap ones with high miles.

He thinks he may have had three or four that were sludged.

Actually, what hes worried about sludgewise are Land-Rovers. They can and do sludge up IF THEY ARE NOT PROPERLY MAINTAINED/b>

And then there's my other friend from the Bahamas, Cranston. He is a used car dealer inthe Bahamas, and he has no memory of sludge being an issue in Toyotas either.

So I can think of two cases of sludge here of late:

Gimpy's RX. 25K between changes. Yeah, gee I wonder why...

And the Lady from Atlanta with the Sienna. And now it comes up that maybe her Texaco station wasnt changing her oil properly unbeknownst to her.

Is that her fault? No and I feel bad for her.

But is that Toyotas fault? I tend to be pretty doubtful there.

Bill

catgem

in all fairness to my Texaco buds in Marietta GA(keeping in mind that my family went to them since 1986;they serviced 3 cars of mine,2 of my mom's ,2 for my sister,and 2 of my ex-husbands)NINE cars in all including my Sienna. NO problems.
Now,I could see leaving on the oil filter with the first change,maybe even the second. But THREE times??? And wouldn't that be the first thing a servicewriter would tell a semi-hysterical female customer,when she asked "how could this happen to my car?" Lets agree to give it a rest for the oil filter story and talk about realistic topics......like maybe alien abductions or something.

zielinw

Ok, here's the deal. I'll trade my rx300, i30, and 240sx, only if I get to go with them to the Bahamas. Life is just too harsh up here in the north 40!! But, then we get very little water damage from hurricanes.

im_brentwood

Can ya stand a few days at the docks and a few days inside a container? If so...

ramblinon

received in the mail yesterday, the usual tri-fold flyer offering coupons good for $3.88 oil filters, wiper blades etc. One interesting coupon that I don't remember seeing before is labeled "TOP ENGINE CARBON CLEANING $89.95" Goes on to state top engine carbon cleaning is designed to:
. Remove carbon build-up on intake valves

. Remove carbon build-up on piston and combustion chamber areas

. Improve cold start performance

Have I just missed seeing this before on the flyer that comes to the house every month or so from two different Dealer mailings (all from the same distribution point I assume). Or is this a new improved service for the Gel/Sludge/Carbon/Cooked/Coked/Burned-on Toyoto situation.

The Beat Goes On...

Ed

pjksr

This isn't the oil gel... Use a few tanks of Mobil Unleaded + or Chevron Supreme, and the carbon will go away, if it was there. Or use a good fuel additive.

For $89, this is probably about all they do anyway.

BTW, the term "oil gel" is not new. Chevron uses the term in their description of their oils: "prevents oil gel in the crankcase, and keeps the PCV system clean."

armtdm

If you do not have a problem, warm the engine up most of the time you start it and once in a while throw in a container of Techron you will never need this service. A great revenue producer for the service dept, like the engine flush many were pushing for a while or the tranny flush (except they never drop the pan and change the filter after the flush)

Of course, this is a Toyota and they still have not determined the cause of the oil gel issue!!!!!

isellhondas

Do you see how rumors get started by people like yourself?

You said that Brentwood had "documented" that Hondas can have a sludge problem.

He didn't say that at all...

He simply stated that ANY car, if improperly maintained will wind up with a gunked up engine.

759397

Our Tacoma was in for service yesterday and they cleaned etc. the PCV valve (for $190 extra over the base 60k service of $520). When I asked what the reason for this was the svc mgr took me and my better half into the service area to look at a Solara with the V6 that had "sludged up". The whole top end of the engine was dismatle and was a complete mess of oily residue.

I mentioned the sludge problem and he said "Oh you know about that too. Big pain in the [non-permissible content removed]. These people didn;t change their oil for 20k miles and because of the notice from Toyota they have to spend 20 hours of labor to clean the engine from top to bottom." Toyota reimburses them for the time spent.

This hasn't been a problem with the 3.4L Tacoma/Truck engine, right?

black_tulip

I am late to the party, but let me also chime in:
Mr Shiftright, please continue participating...very few(if not any beside yourself) knowledgable hosts like yourself left on Edmunds.
Isellhondas, please take it easy. He said "can have sludge"...which I think is a true statement.

canc

"Do you see how rumors get started by people like yourself?"

People like myself? I detect a flame here, and I think it's completely unappropriate for such a comment on this forum. What exactly do you mean when you say "people like myself", spreading "rumors"?

In case you might think that I am self-perpetuating rumor mill, please refer to post 3655 of this thread, posted by Brentwoodvolvo:

"I have not seen a SINGLE sludged engine [Toyota]. But one. And do ya know what car had a sludged engine? A 1996 Honda Accord with about 140K miles. There was sludge in the head and I had the engine flushed several times and it seemed to cure it. I was told that the engine was going to be stripped when it go to Port-Au-Prince regardless."

In my book, "any" car can also mean a Honda.

Do know that I will not post anything here that I cannot back up with obtainable and legitimate proof.

I won't take offense any longer in your statement, yet I do ask of you to please refrain in the future from posting such statements to other fellow forum participants.

759397

Can have sludge if not properly maintained. This is true of Ferrari, BMW, Honda etc.

That IS a true statement.

canc

jimmuh1

Yes, it is true that it can happen to other makes. But does it happen in less than 30,000 miles? Typically not, typically when it does happen it is a higher mileage engine and not within the warranty period, correct? Even the car in the example had 140K on it.

What we're seeing here is a trend for these two engines produced in a four year period and an unwillingness by an automobile manufacturer to honor their warranty.

Jamie

jimmuh1

Someone forwarded this story that was posted yesterday. Why the sudden shift in numbers? Note that the Toyota spokeswoman in the story could not produce 'detailed analysis' about the complaints.

http://www.imakenews.com/lng/e_article000057673.cfm?x=69198,3320841

Jamie

jimmuh1

I know there are guys on here that are either techs or work at a dealership. What happens typically when someone brings a vehicle in (under warranty or not) and explains a problem.

How do you troubleshoot the problem? At what point is a decision made?

FEX, in my case they pulled the valve cover off. That's it, nothing else. How can you make a determination on a problem by only taking off the valve cover? It will show you the result, not the cause if I am understanding things correctly.

Thanks.

Jamie

canc

Pulling the valve cover off does indicate the result rather than the cause. Toyota says the cause is improper maintenance, and maintains that if oil changes are done properly and at scheduled intervals, Toyota owners of the 2.2 and 3.0 should be fine.

I personally think that 7500 mile oil changes are ridiculous, regardless of the brand. Even the oil in a Rolls-Royce needs to be changed after such mileage. Automakers nowadays are out to be the first maintenance-free car out there. The fact is, unless you switch to synthetics, oil gets contaminated after a while, regardless of which engine it's in. I think automakers (this includes Toyota, as well as Honda, Nissan, GM, etc.) should be upfront with their customers and declare 3000 or 5000 mile oil changes instead of pretending that the cars will run forever on nothing.