Honda Insight Hybrid Battery Pack Questions
Boy I hate to have to be writing post, but since Honda USA has decided to turn their back on me, I feel have have no other leverage in this situation and I can only hope others considering the purchase of a Honda Hybrid and reading this post will think twice about it.
I own a Honda Insight. I've owned it for over 4 years now, and it has been a great vehicle. I have had it serviced regularly by Honda and have not missed a single scheduled maintenance visit. This June, on a trip from where I live in the California Sierras to Las Vegas, a funny thing started to happen. This drive involves a lot of hills, and traveling with my wife, we were near the load limit for the car. Driving in the mountains, you use a lot of battery - you can't help it. The good news is that you can get good recharges as you drive back downhill from you ascents. Anyhow, I noticed that once my battery got one or two "lines" below 1/2, the battery charge dropped precipitously. I mean it dropped to just 2 lines in about 10-15 seconds. Even worse, it didn't matter whether I was driving at the time or not. I tested this by pulling over to the side, putting the car in neutral and letting the engine shut down as it normally does, but the battery drain, once started always dropped to 2 lines - despite its not being used at all at the time!
Now this is not good. But to make it just a little bit worse, I still needed to bring the charge all the way back through the "drop range" in order to get it back where I could use it again. The only good thing about this trip was that the trip down to Vegas was on June 10, and the trip back on June 19. It was fortunately very mild weather in the Nevada high desert aone those dates, and I could often run without AC when at altitude. Had we been driving during the present heat wave, we would have been in very serious trouble.
So once I got back, I took the car into the dealer and explained the problem. They ran all their tests and told me the car, and the battery system was fine. I then took the mechanic who worked on the car out for a drive. I drained the battery to half, and watch carefully. Once it started to drop, I pulled over the side of the road, put the car in neutral and let the engine shut down. His jaw dropped about as quickly as the the battery did.
At this point he agreed that the battery system was not fine, but given the limited experience he had with hybrids, he needed to call Honda USA's tech advisors. They indicated that - even though the battery is "fully" warranted for eight (count 'em: 8) years, and even though it was clearly failing, that they would not fix it under warranty because it had not "failed enough" to set off their bloody IMA indicator lights. "Failed enough" - gotta love that logic!
Ok, so I escalated this to Honda Customer Service at the behest of the service manager at my dealer since their hands were tied in the matter.The upshot of all that, is that after playing over a week's worth of phone tag, Honda won't do anything to correct the problem. They do acknowledge that the battery is failing and offered to extend the battery's warranty to 125,00 miles, but what the heck good would another 2 or 3 years do me. If the battery is going to fail completely while I'm out in the high desert, that extension won't help worth beans. Further, I honestly believe that either the battery will continue to deteriorate over the next 3 or 4 years to the point where the IMA light will fail, or it will just reach a crippled point and stop detriorating. In either case, such a warranty extension is clearly worthless. They were trying to throw me a bone to shut me up and have me go away. I declined.
So now I have two choices: I can try to sell what I know to be a failing vehicle - even if Honda's morales don't mind that, mine do - or I can try to live with it until it "fails more" - perhaps leaving me in a seriously bad situation when that happens. I don't not find either of these alternatives acceptable. As such, I feel that my only recourse at this time is to let everyone I can know about this incident and warn then away from Honda's hybrid vehicles. Their battery warranty isn't worth the paper it's printed on.
My short advice to all reading this: Buy a Prius!
Most Sincerely,
= Ed Rotberg =
I own a Honda Insight. I've owned it for over 4 years now, and it has been a great vehicle. I have had it serviced regularly by Honda and have not missed a single scheduled maintenance visit. This June, on a trip from where I live in the California Sierras to Las Vegas, a funny thing started to happen. This drive involves a lot of hills, and traveling with my wife, we were near the load limit for the car. Driving in the mountains, you use a lot of battery - you can't help it. The good news is that you can get good recharges as you drive back downhill from you ascents. Anyhow, I noticed that once my battery got one or two "lines" below 1/2, the battery charge dropped precipitously. I mean it dropped to just 2 lines in about 10-15 seconds. Even worse, it didn't matter whether I was driving at the time or not. I tested this by pulling over to the side, putting the car in neutral and letting the engine shut down as it normally does, but the battery drain, once started always dropped to 2 lines - despite its not being used at all at the time!
Now this is not good. But to make it just a little bit worse, I still needed to bring the charge all the way back through the "drop range" in order to get it back where I could use it again. The only good thing about this trip was that the trip down to Vegas was on June 10, and the trip back on June 19. It was fortunately very mild weather in the Nevada high desert aone those dates, and I could often run without AC when at altitude. Had we been driving during the present heat wave, we would have been in very serious trouble.
So once I got back, I took the car into the dealer and explained the problem. They ran all their tests and told me the car, and the battery system was fine. I then took the mechanic who worked on the car out for a drive. I drained the battery to half, and watch carefully. Once it started to drop, I pulled over the side of the road, put the car in neutral and let the engine shut down. His jaw dropped about as quickly as the the battery did.
At this point he agreed that the battery system was not fine, but given the limited experience he had with hybrids, he needed to call Honda USA's tech advisors. They indicated that - even though the battery is "fully" warranted for eight (count 'em: 8) years, and even though it was clearly failing, that they would not fix it under warranty because it had not "failed enough" to set off their bloody IMA indicator lights. "Failed enough" - gotta love that logic!
Ok, so I escalated this to Honda Customer Service at the behest of the service manager at my dealer since their hands were tied in the matter.The upshot of all that, is that after playing over a week's worth of phone tag, Honda won't do anything to correct the problem. They do acknowledge that the battery is failing and offered to extend the battery's warranty to 125,00 miles, but what the heck good would another 2 or 3 years do me. If the battery is going to fail completely while I'm out in the high desert, that extension won't help worth beans. Further, I honestly believe that either the battery will continue to deteriorate over the next 3 or 4 years to the point where the IMA light will fail, or it will just reach a crippled point and stop detriorating. In either case, such a warranty extension is clearly worthless. They were trying to throw me a bone to shut me up and have me go away. I declined.
So now I have two choices: I can try to sell what I know to be a failing vehicle - even if Honda's morales don't mind that, mine do - or I can try to live with it until it "fails more" - perhaps leaving me in a seriously bad situation when that happens. I don't not find either of these alternatives acceptable. As such, I feel that my only recourse at this time is to let everyone I can know about this incident and warn then away from Honda's hybrid vehicles. Their battery warranty isn't worth the paper it's printed on.
My short advice to all reading this: Buy a Prius!
Most Sincerely,
= Ed Rotberg =
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I may yet try to escalate this further, but I've already told them that I was writing - not disparaging - but accurate posts to many forums/blogs. I also have sent a copy of this original post to 3 top car magazines. I don't know what good it will do, but if it gets some others to ask critical questions BEFORE they buy a Honda hybrid, maybe I will have done some good.
= Ed =
I have never had any dealer replace a part that may be going bad. Unfortunately we have to wait until the part fails before replacement while warranted. They gave you more warrantly, what else do you want, be happy for the additional time!
I asked if there was something I could do to make the new battery last longer, but they assured me that it's nothing I've done or failed to do. That if the IMA light comes on again, it's covered under the new warranty. BTW, I've been using Honda's 0W-20 oil @ 5,000 change intervals (not Amsoil).
That's the good news. The bad news is that the new battery and control module are only warrantied for 3 years/36,000 miles! I asked the service manager why this is and all he could offer was that usually replacement parts are only warranted for 1 year/12,000 miles, so I was getting a good deal (my impression of his remarks). I would've at least expected them to honor the remaining warranty on my original battery - 4 more years (I bought the car in May, 2003) or 99,000 miles. Btw, he said it would've cost $4,700 if I'd had to pay for the battery/module replacement.
I plan to write Honda Motors to complain. Anyone had a similar experience?
Thanks again.
The battery is what you need the warranty for. It WILL wear out. How soon could be three years or 10+ (nobody knows how long) depending on your driving habits and driving style. Your 2nd pack is likely to last as long as your first one did (6? years).
When it eventually starts to fail, you'll be out of warranty, so you should look for a rebuilder who can rebuild the battery for far less money than replacing it.
Anyway, as I've been poking on the internet to find out the reasons for this, I've learned more about the IMA battery failure than I cared to know. I lost my job last August and no way can I afford two or three grand for a new battery pack. I'm not aware of any warranty like you all have been talking about -- as far as I know the only warranty on my car was the 6-year or 60,000-miler which expired in February 2008. (I currently have somewhere between 66k and 72k miles total, don't recall the exact number on the odometer.)
Can someone give me the proper linguistic conjuration to use when visiting the dealer to ensure that I, too, get treated well with a loaner and a replacement for free? I don't do the human interface thing very well and no matter how I try I seem to give off the "go ahead and frack me over" signal. (Or else it's just old-school gender bias against girls? hehehe) Well I can't afford to be fracked over right now, being unemployed and tight on money, so if someone could PLEASE clue me in to the right "magick words" to say to get them to listen to me and give me the same royal carpet treatment so many of you have enjoyed, it would be lovely. Thanks.
Dealers in our area are quoting between $4000 and $5000 to replace an old and failing battery module in an Insight. I can do it for half of that, and less if it's an outright exchange.
What real life is showing us all is that, with new technology, trailblazers like Honda have to sometimes pick a position based on a lot of reasons and strategy, and take some risk with their warranty offers. The expanded, ten year warranty, helped ease the pain of the reality that we are experiencing.
My personal take on all of this is simple. First; Nothing lasts forever and there are 120 opportunities for failure in a Honda Insight battery pack. A "rejuvenated" cell isn't a "new" cell and you can't undo the age and cycles that the, not yet failed, cells in the pack have been through. For my money, I will opt for new products when offered at a decent price.
The warranty of three years that I see bandied about is probably reasonable at this point. Some of these cars are still doing OK seven years down the road, although many have had battery issues long before that, so it sounds like a reasonable risk on both our parts (Honda and the Owners) to settle on that type of warranty.
Majestic Honda (RI) quoted me $2000 (battery) + $465 (shipping of the battery from American Honda to them) + $330 (3 hours labor). Total: $2800.
Honda of Princeton (Princeton, NJ) quoted me $2485 and said that I could bring the car in when the battery arrived and that I could wait as they installed it.
I then called South Bay Honda (near San Francisco) and they quoted me $2800 for the battery (with the shipping) and $1100 labor for a total of $3900. This is obviously price-gouging as they can't seriously be charging $360 per hour labor. The service tech claimed that their cost for the battery was $2450.
I will try to call some more west-coast dealers tomorrow to get some additional pricing.
That is certainly true, but you are implying that every cell will fail. As an engineer, you know that is not true. You also know that from the first day the battery is used, it starts to deteriorate. What matters is that the deterioration is within acceptable limits.
A brand new Honda battery holds 6500Mah which provides 6 minutes of full boost. A typical 2000 Insight's battery will have deteriorated to about 5800-6200 Mah. This is about 5:30 of boost instead of 6 minutes - which is perfectly acceptable to most people, and is actually even hard to detect.
I have found that a battery with P1447 errors might have cells that are only capable of 1500Mah. After reconditioning, those cells get back up to the 5800-6200 Mah range. What matters is replacing the bad cells (the ones with high internal resistance, high self-discharge rate, etc.) that caused the deterioration so that it doesn't happen again. Can another cell go bad? Certainly, but MTBF would suggest that there will be a significant amount of time before that happens.
I am an engineer and your statement about MTBF makes no sense at all. The MTBF of these cells is calculated from the day they are manufactured, not from the day you "rejuvenate" them. Are you saying that you believe putting a battery rejuvenator on a battery makes it "like new" again, resetting the MTBF calcs as well? Explain that. And since the cells that you are replacing have failed, and they are part of a sampling of 120 units, how do you make the leap that they were the exception and not the rule? How can you claim that the other cells still have so much more life expectancy when cells in this lot have already failed?
Thanks for the price gathering. There seems to be a large disparity between the Honda quotes in the San Diego area and those in New York. I'll be making calls and asking for documentation myself because, with differences of these amounts, Honda America (and their dealerships) owes Insight owners some explanations.
No and stop acting like a moron. You know what I mean. If there are one or two failures in the first 8 years, there aren't likely to be much more than that in the next 8. The projected life for these batteries is 30 years. One or two will go bad early. Others will show early warning. If these are all replaced, then there is a reasonable expectation of 5-8 more years before another failure. They aren't all going to go bad at once.
I don't know how you can possibly make the claims that you do. If the whole pack is several years old and cells have just started to fail, it doesn't make any sense (except to you perhaps) that a smaller number would fail in the future versus larger numbers. The claim defies logic and common sense.
My point was (and remains so) that if there are 120 cells in the pack and some are starting to fail, it is reasonable to guess that the remaining cells, that are just as old and deteriorated as the ones that are currently failing, will likely begin to fail also. I have no way (and neither do you) to predict otherwise. The materials have aged, nothing lasts forever, and if I can buy brand new units, I would prefer to do so rather than trickle big bucks out for "snake oil" from a slick seller that throws around technical buzz words.
Honda welded the cells together for a reason, and the bus bars are half an inch wide to carry the extreme current that is produced and consumed by the electric motor.
Now, why rebuild a battery? Let me spell it out for the non-technical people on the list and so that you don't spin it further away from the truth.
NiMH batteries have an estimated lifespan of about 30 years under ideal conditions. The Insight certainly does not provide ideal conditions, so some of the cells will fail early. We are now at the 8 or so year mark for most of the failing packs. A careful reconditioning and testing of the cells will identify the ones that are bad, the ones that are going bad, the ones that are worn but stable and the ones that are fresh and top performers.
If you replace the bad and going bad cells, you can expect the remaining good cells to last quite a while before any more cells die. They do give a great deal of advanced warning before failure and continue to function in a diminished capacity for a long time.
This makes repairing a battery an appealing choice over purchasing a new one or upgrading it, because repairing costs about 1/3 of the price of replacing or upgrading and another 5-8 years of battery life without trouble is reasonable to expect.
Why replace the 90-95% of the battery that is good?
Please feel free to send me more nasty emails if you wish.
It is true that I rebuilt my IMA battery pack with new cells. I had no idea I would create such a stir by revealing my design and offering to show it to local Honda Insight owners in this forum. I stated that I used new cells and prefer that approach over buying old packs from junk yards and "rejuvenating" them. I have stated my reasons why. Apparently when people making false and/or misleading claims are called on their information, they become quite agitated. If calling a person that sells "snake oil" and offers distorted and made-up data to people, "not credible" then I guess I am guilty of "name calling" but I will let the readers decide on names like "moron" and anything else that "feels" right to them.
In any event, I hope that the readers of this forum will do their homework. I will be happy to show you my car(s) and explain some of my mod's to you if you are local and interested in seeing them. Please do not ask me for pictures of the battery pack, schematics, parts lists etc. I am not here to help further the education of anyone or make myself feel important. I am just offering advice and another solution to what is sure to become an all too familiar problem with Hybrid cars as time goes on.
Thanks for your cooperation and participation.
BTW, Honda recycles the good sticks out of warranty packs and uses them in the replacement batteries. All warranty replacement batteries are "remanufactured battery module(s)" and they are ordered by the dealer from CALHAC*
If remanufactured/rebuilt/reconditioned/"rejuvenated" batteries are good enough for Honda, they are certainly not "snake oil".
Here is a picture of three batteries being repaired:
*Honda Service Bulletin 00-070 dated Dec '06
Any ideas? Just found this site and I am reading previous messages. Have about 125K on the car, local dealers appear to be boneheads.
Thanks
Have you had the IMA light come on and the system shut down yet? If you haven't, then maybe you should try to accomplish that by taking a drive in some areas that will really tax the system, demanding higher and more sustained current draw from the battery until the system is unable to keep up. Around southern California that is easy to do. We have lots of mountainous area. It seems to me that WV might also have it's fair share of mountain roads to drive on. You might also be able to do that by trying to use full IMA power as often as possible by driving in higher gears than you normally do and keeping the RPM under 3K while having a "lead foot" on the accelerator. Once there is an actual idiot light and obvious problem to address, you can be the one that plays dumb (except for your knowledge of the battery issue and warranty :-) and try taking it back to them again.
Good luck!
You didn't say how often it does this. When it gets to multiple times per day, the end is near.
If the dealer tries to charge you for anything, call American Honda or contact us here. This repair is free.
I can tell you that the only thing producing the short life in the IMA batteries is the fact that the cells are all in series and the car has no way to independently charge them. I know this because most of them are not dead, they are just crippled due to a few weak cells. After reconditioning, they spring back to life, but the weak cells must be replaced, or the battery will fade once more.
- Battery Limited Warranty[1] = 10 years/150,000 miles (AT-PZEV emissions rating). (CARB states)
- Battery Limited Warranty = 8 years/100,000 miles (ULEV rating) (non-CARB states)
The 2010 Insights are nothing special. Just more technology to maintain especially after the 3/36 warranty expires.
What about the battery after 80000 miles from 3-4K, a cost of a new engine.
I was not inpressed. The Prius is much better Hybrid by 150%.
Buy yourself a Fit Sport or a Civic LX Auto.
And next time try reading the thread before you post.
I wish I had more information, but I'm afraid to call her back for fear of having no reply to her money request. Can anyone explain more about what she's up against?
He says the 2010 Insight is Junk. Wow. The Insight just came out and how in heck does he know that.
This guy is just trolling and looking to pick a fight, nothing else possitive to do in his boring life and absolutely nothing to back up his useless ranting.