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  • stickguystickguy Posts: 38,018
    that is the flip side of wanting a hands off economic model. The lucky ones at the top skim all the money, and the people at the bottom are disposable overhead.

    and the skimmers that are getting rich based on ST stock price don't care about the LT health of the company. Profit sharing with the workers that really are the company, building a sustainable organization, those are all looking at the Horizon activities. Not looking at the end of the next quarter.

    2019 Acura TLX A-spec 4 cyl. (mine), and 2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD (wife's)

  • abacomikeabacomike South FloridaPosts: 11,183
    edited July 12


    A (relatively) local winery had an outdoor tasting complete with social distancing, a band, and this view from the rear of their property that the GF and I attended last night. Great night...until it rained about 2 hours into it. Still....good to do something like this. They made it safe.

    When I lived in Palm Desert, CA, I used to frequent Callaway Winery in Temecula, CA (about an hour drive west) for their "Lunch in the Vineyards" preceded by wine tasting in the winery. I enjoyed their great food and wine so much that I started going there just to buy their wines by the case at great discounts.

    Never did get to Napa or Sonoma Valleys northeast of San Francisco to stay at the vineyards - on my bucket list.

    2020 Mercedes E450 4MATIC Sedan

  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 159,399


    A (relatively) local winery had an outdoor tasting complete with social distancing, a band, and this view from the rear of their property that the GF and I attended last night. Great night...until it rained about 2 hours into it. Still....good to do something like this. They made it safe.

    Valley Vineyards?

    Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!

    Edmunds Moderator

  • roadburnerroadburner Posts: 13,448
    edited July 12


    That sounds like many farmers I know, getting over leveraged and then having one or two bad crop years. I disagree with the author’s clickbait premise that greed caused the collapse. A few dozens of millions spread around the upper management was a drop in the bucket compared to $20 billion in debt. What was the alternative, let all your executives jump ship and leave the company in turmoil. Like it or not $10-20 million in compensation for a CEO is routine these days. If they had turned things around they would have been heroes.

    My own business model was to not take on any kind of debt. While ultimately safe it restricted my ability to ramp up production or take advantage of new opportunities. I couldn’t afford to risk losing my home but I also never made a whole lot of money.

    Capitalism rewards risk but the downside is pretty brutal.

    One of the most contentious cases I ever dealt with involved a farm family who kept borrowing money from their PCA(remember those?). When the family’s farming business finally collapsed the banks foreclosed. I represented a retired couple who had sold the family a small adjacent farm with a lien retained. The family was stiffing my clients claiming that the reason they couldn’t pay that lien was because the banks wouldn’t loan them any more money.
    And their defense to the banks’ foreclosure?
    “You shouldn’t have loaned us so much money- you should have known we couldn’t pay it back!”

    My clients finally prevailed but it was a royal mess, thanks to at least one totally incompetent attorney and an inept bleeding heart judge.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2014 M235i; 2009 Cooper Clubman; 1999 Wrangler; 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i

  • driver100driver100 Burlington, ON 7 mo/Tampa FL 5 moPosts: 27,228

    suydam said:

    driver100 said:


    You can change your own tire or you can have someone else change the tire....that has nothing to do with making you a man. There are a lot of young kids and women who can change a tire, do an oil change, drive a semi-truck, drive a bus, fix a transmission....has nothing to do with who they are as a person or their gender. :)

    Real men just are men, they don't have to brag about changing a tire to prove it.

    Here's a solution; the next time I-or someone else-discusses DIY maintenance or repair, feel free to brazenly announce how you are able to use your phone to call someone to do it. Deal?

    Why are you so crabby about this? The only person brazenly announcing anything is you. Some people are DIYers, some aren’t. I don’t know why you think that’s some kind of test. I’m happy you enjoy it, but I’m not bowing in awe either. Can’t we just all get along without casting aspersions (or as my significant other would say, “casting a Persian”)?
    If I DID do something that made you “bow in awe” I would immediately question whatever I had done- and I’d make certain not to do it again.

    Your posts make me bow in awe....are you going to stop posting?

    Seriously, if you want to question yourself, I would look at treating other people with respect whether you agree or disagree with them. Not everyone thinks and acts like you do.

    We have a great group of posters who are almost always respectful of differing opinions....very few incidents considering the number of posts, it would be better to not say anything than to make negative comments about fellow posters. ;)

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • roadburnerroadburner Posts: 13,448
    edited July 12
    It really took much too long for me to appreciate it, but I'm finally going to take Dibert's advice regarding the individuals I choose to have discussions with.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2014 M235i; 2009 Cooper Clubman; 1999 Wrangler; 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i

  • driver100driver100 Burlington, ON 7 mo/Tampa FL 5 moPosts: 27,228
    abacomike said:

    driver100 said:

    ab348 said:

    I disagree with the author’s clickbait premise that greed caused the collapse. A few dozens of millions spread around the upper management was a drop in the bucket compared to $20 billion in debt.

    I didn't need to visit the link to agree with your conclusion.
    Me too. If a CEO can make an extra few $billion profit a year because of his skills....then paying him an extra $million or two is well worth it.
    A few million or two would be appropriate, but the amount corporations dole out to top executives is usually 60-100 million dollars in bonuses which is ludicrous and outrageous while working peons slave on the line to make those billions in profits.

    Everyone in a successful company should benefit from huge profits because achieving record profits is more than realized by great leaders - it takes a great "team" to be truly successful.
    Agree.......really shows up on this chart:

    The quality of CEO would probably not deteriorate if they were paid more in line with Japanese amounts.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • ab348ab348 Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CanadaPosts: 13,153
    I don’t understand that chart. Is it saying that in Japan and Denmark that CEOs make 60% of workers pay? Clearly that can’t be so.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6, 1968 Oldsmobile Cutlass S Holiday Coupe

  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Posts: 15,620

    I was more focused on the history of Hertz, not the money part,
    Guess everyone judged the book by the cover.

    The history was pretty interesting too.

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2004 Chevy Van, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • driver100driver100 Burlington, ON 7 mo/Tampa FL 5 moPosts: 27,228
    ab348 said:

    I don’t understand that chart. Is it saying that in Japan and Denmark that CEOs make 60% of workers pay? Clearly that can’t be so.

    Chart is X (times...so in the U.S. CEOs make 350 times what a worker makes.......in Japan it is 70 times, Denmark 50 times.
    A CEO is worth a lot if he can make huge profits....but is one person really worth 350 times what a worker is? 50 to 70X more would make more sense.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Posts: 15,620
    abacomike said:

    driver100 said:

    ab348 said:

    I disagree with the author’s clickbait premise that greed caused the collapse. A few dozens of millions spread around the upper management was a drop in the bucket compared to $20 billion in debt.

    I didn't need to visit the link to agree with your conclusion.
    Me too. If a CEO can make an extra few $billion profit a year because of his skills....then paying him an extra $million or two is well worth it.
    A few million or two would be appropriate, but the amount corporations dole out to top executives is usually 60-100 million dollars in bonuses which is ludicrous and outrageous while working peons slave on the line to make those billions in profits.

    Everyone in a successful company should benefit from huge profits because achieving record profits is more than realized by great leaders - it takes a great "team" to be truly successful.
    Executive compensation is a convenient straw man for those seeking to generate outrage over the unfairness of the capitalist system. A few years back there was a concerted effort to shame Walmart over the CEOs $20 million salary compared to the regular employee’s. The implication was that the $20 million should be distributed to the “team” if you will. What the advocates didn’t mention was this would result in an additional payment to the workers of only $2.

    Personally I don’t think you can hire a better CEO for $20 million than you could for $1 million but in the end that’s a matter for the shareholders. I think the idea of “fairness” in business is a red herring that leads to equality of poverty.

    Off my soapbox now.

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2004 Chevy Van, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Posts: 15,620
    edited July 12
    stickguy said:

    that is the flip side of wanting a hands off economic model. The lucky ones at the top skim all the money, and the people at the bottom are disposable overhead.

    and the skimmers that are getting rich based on ST stock price don't care about the LT health of the company. Profit sharing with the workers that really are the company, building a sustainable organization, those are all looking at the Horizon activities. Not looking at the end of the next quarter.

    Yeah, I agree with that. Corporate raiders like Icahn didn’t help Hertz in the end. But if you viewed that video he wasn’t the first to buy and sell the company. Some sellers made out good while others overpaid and lost their shirts.

    What do you think happened to the executives who cost their investors big bucks with their bad decisions? I bet they aren’t making the big bucks any more. That’s the story that seldom gets told.

    Enterprise gives even minimum wage slugs like me a profit sharing bonus. I don’t know if Hertz did the same.

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2004 Chevy Van, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • graphicguygraphicguy Edmunds Poster EmeritusPosts: 12,369
    kyfdx said:


    A (relatively) local winery had an outdoor tasting complete with social distancing, a band, and this view from the rear of their property that the GF and I attended last night. Great night...until it rained about 2 hours into it. Still....good to do something like this. They made it safe.

    Valley Vineyards?
    http://www.hanoverwinery.com/
    2019 Kia Stinger GT2
  • graphicguygraphicguy Edmunds Poster EmeritusPosts: 12,369
    abacomike said:


    A (relatively) local winery had an outdoor tasting complete with social distancing, a band, and this view from the rear of their property that the GF and I attended last night. Great night...until it rained about 2 hours into it. Still....good to do something like this. They made it safe.

    When I lived in Palm Desert, CA, I used to frequent Callaway Winery in Temecula, CA (about an hour drive west) for their "Lunch in the Vineyards" preceded by wine tasting in the winery. I enjoyed their great food and wine so much that I started going there just to buy their wines by the case at great discounts.

    Never did get to Napa or Sonoma Valleys northeast of San Francisco to stay at the vineyards - on my bucket list.
    When I was still working, I used to visit my company’s HQ in Fremont, CA about every 4-6 weeks. I would try to hang out for a weekend to drive up to Sonoma and Napa. All the big CA were there, but my favorite ones were the smaller, family owned, boutique wineries.

    My favorite is this place.....

    http://www.stsupery.com/

    Worth a drive up the coast to see the beautiful scenery and sample, what I consider world class wines, along the way. I’d do it tomorrow, without question, if the COVID-19 thing ever subsides.
    2019 Kia Stinger GT2
  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Posts: 15,620
    driver100 said:

    ab348 said:

    I don’t understand that chart. Is it saying that in Japan and Denmark that CEOs make 60% of workers pay? Clearly that can’t be so.

    Chart is X (times...so in the U.S. CEOs make 350 times what a worker makes.......in Japan it is 70 times, Denmark 50 times.
    A CEO is worth a lot if he can make huge profits....but is one person really worth 350 times what a worker is? 50 to 70X more would make more sense.
    So when you buy a car do you tell the salesman “I don’t think that MB price is fair, I want you to sell it to me for 100 times less”? The sale of any commodity is only contingent on what the owner and buyer agree on. If the dealer won’t sell his car to you for a penny on the dollar is he evil?

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2004 Chevy Van, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • driver100driver100 Burlington, ON 7 mo/Tampa FL 5 moPosts: 27,228

    abacomike said:

    driver100 said:

    ab348 said:

    I disagree with the author’s clickbait premise that greed caused the collapse. A few dozens of millions spread around the upper management was a drop in the bucket compared to $20 billion in debt.

    I didn't need to visit the link to agree with your conclusion.
    Me too. If a CEO can make an extra few $billion profit a year because of his skills....then paying him an extra $million or two is well worth it.
    A few million or two would be appropriate, but the amount corporations dole out to top executives is usually 60-100 million dollars in bonuses which is ludicrous and outrageous while working peons slave on the line to make those billions in profits.

    Everyone in a successful company should benefit from huge profits because achieving record profits is more than realized by great leaders - it takes a great "team" to be truly successful.
    Executive compensation is a convenient straw man for those seeking to generate outrage over the unfairness of the capitalist system. A few years back there was a concerted effort to shame Walmart over the CEOs $20 million salary compared to the regular employee’s. The implication was that the $20 million should be distributed to the “team” if you will. What the advocates didn’t mention was this would result in an additional payment to the workers of only $2.

    Personally I don’t think you can hire a better CEO for $20 million than you could for $1 million but in the end that’s a matter for the shareholders. I think the idea of “fairness” in business is a red herring that leads to equality of poverty.

    Off my soapbox now.
    I agree 100%. I think that if possible, companies should try to find a way to do some profit sharing. It makes employees feel that they contributed and they did.....and it is nice to recognize their efforts.
    Here 3 grocery chains gave their workers an extra $2 an hour as COVID pay - for working during the pandemic. Now there is backlash because people feel the bonus has ended, but, workers are still on the battlefield. Competition Bureau also checking as to why the bonus started and ended, in 3 separate chain stores, at the same time!

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • driver100driver100 Burlington, ON 7 mo/Tampa FL 5 moPosts: 27,228

    driver100 said:

    ab348 said:

    I don’t understand that chart. Is it saying that in Japan and Denmark that CEOs make 60% of workers pay? Clearly that can’t be so.

    Chart is X (times...so in the U.S. CEOs make 350 times what a worker makes.......in Japan it is 70 times, Denmark 50 times.
    A CEO is worth a lot if he can make huge profits....but is one person really worth 350 times what a worker is? 50 to 70X more would make more sense.
    So when you buy a car do you tell the salesman “I don’t think that MB price is fair, I want you to sell it to me for 100 times less”? The sale of any commodity is only contingent on what the owner and buyer agree on. If the dealer won’t sell his car to you for a penny on the dollar is he evil?
    The selling price of a car is fixed in that it costs a certain amount to produce it....so I can't expect them to sell it to me for a fraction of the cost it took to make it. But, CEO salaries are elastic, they depend more on what the competition is willing to pay for the same guy or the same position.
    I have worked under CEOs who I think really were worth big bucks...but, most, well, a monkey probably could have run the company better. Exaggeration, but, they weren't special, anyone could have done what they did, and some were awful....not worth 10% of what they were paid.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • tjc78tjc78 South JerseyPosts: 10,596
    Nothing like a nice beach day!

    2017 Buick Enclave / 2019 Volvo S60 T6 Inscription

  • roadburnerroadburner Posts: 13,448

    driver100 said:

    ab348 said:

    I don’t understand that chart. Is it saying that in Japan and Denmark that CEOs make 60% of workers pay? Clearly that can’t be so.

    Chart is X (times...so in the U.S. CEOs make 350 times what a worker makes.......in Japan it is 70 times, Denmark 50 times.
    A CEO is worth a lot if he can make huge profits....but is one person really worth 350 times what a worker is? 50 to 70X more would make more sense.
    So when you buy a car do you tell the salesman “I don’t think that MB price is fair, I want you to sell it to me for 100 times less”? The sale of any commodity is only contingent on what the owner and buyer agree on. If the dealer won’t sell his car to you for a penny on the dollar is he evil?
    I recall an insufferable twit over on one of the old Roadfly boards who stated that $500 per car was a fair amount of profit for a new car dealer. I asked him that if he won a new car in a raffle would he sell it to me for $500- after all, it was a "fair profit."
    I may not patronize a dealer that tacks ADM stickers on their hot selling models, but I defend their right to do so.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2014 M235i; 2009 Cooper Clubman; 1999 Wrangler; 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i

  • roadburnerroadburner Posts: 13,448


    Personally I don’t think you can hire a better CEO for $20 million than you could for $1 million but in the end that’s a matter for the shareholders. I think the idea of “fairness” in business is a red herring that leads to equality of poverty.

    Off my soapbox now.

    Funny you mention that; a dweeb on one FB page I frequent was asking if a particular CEO "deserved" the salary he received; I said that unless I was a shareholder or a member of the Board of Directors it was absolutely none of my business.
    Whenever someone talks about what is a "fair" salary or profit I get a firm grip on my wallet- just like I do when someone professes to tell me what I "need" when it comes to my house, the cars I own, etc.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2014 M235i; 2009 Cooper Clubman; 1999 Wrangler; 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 24,839
    Long, long ago I was interested in how much the CEO pay for people "leading" large companies was. Mostly my interest was I held stock in and purchased the products of those companies. The major problem I learned over the years was there's an inside buddy system of people being put on boards of multiple companies. Cross pollution.

    And I found the pay systems thought up were exceeded only by the politicians' ingenuity in getting themselves money in our capitals.


    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • omarmanomarman Posts: 2,346
    That's really it. Not so important how much company executives are paid but very important how it's tied to job performance. Does the CEO have skills or just Skilling. :smile:
    A time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing.
  • ventureventure Central PAPosts: 1,737
    I was on my way home from Maryland on the PA turnpike, just west of Carlisle when this passed me. The two guys who were in it were doing their best impression of rednecks.


    A little later I saw another one in yellow being driven by a female. It looked completely stock.

    A red coronet R/T convertible was on a flatbed a few miles later. Looked like a "67. The taillights were the whole was across the back and had about a gazillion vertical chrome bars.

    Looked like this only red with a black top.


    I looked and Chrysler Nationals was this weekend.

    2020 Ascent Limited, 2020 Legacy Touring XT

  • omarmanomarman Posts: 2,346
    Maybe the rednecks weren't pretending. :smile:
    I always liked the round taillights of the '68 Charger better but still prefer the split grille design of the '69. But it's a lot worse not having owned either one. :disappointed:
    A time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing.
  • ventureventure Central PAPosts: 1,737
    I wish they had blown the horn when they passed since I gave them a "thumbs up". Everything else looked General Lee.

    2020 Ascent Limited, 2020 Legacy Touring XT

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 24,839
    edited July 12
    venture said:

    The two guys who were in it were doing their best impression of rednecks.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redneck

    That's a perjorative term. Like China Virus might be to some.


    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • driver100driver100 Burlington, ON 7 mo/Tampa FL 5 moPosts: 27,228

    Interesting story about Hertz bankruptcy.
    If you have a short attention span, don't watch it.

    A few more random thoughts. Would Hertz have survived if the world didn't stop suddenly because of the pandemic? They probably would have, but no one could foresee the travel business would suddenly come to a screeching standstill. A lot of businesses may not survive....cruise ship industry, large hotels, resorts, restaurants, airlines. Companies usually expand based on assets...Hertz was overextended, but they thought they were on a roll. Business sometimes operates in a risky way.....it has to stay positive and plan to grow or you get trampled on, but, also be defensive just in case a crash occurs.......you have to be good to survive and a bit lucky.

    I don't think they were any more greedy than most other companies. A good report though, interesting and nicely explained.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • fintailfintail Posts: 51,044
    Most rednecks I know (and where I've lived, I know more than a few) wear the designation with pride. If they aren't offended, nobody else should be similar.

    Not sure if I can buy the "retain talent" ethos of grossly overpaying CEOs that some advocate. Looking at what has become of the socio-economic (and economic mobility) landscape over the past couple generations, something has gone awry. Also amusing to see people born on third base mocking what might be "fair".
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 8,164

    ab348 said:

    It’s less the weight though, and more about where it is on the body, right? An additional 65 lbs lower down or distributed at the four corners is much different than top dead center.

    If you were driving the vehicle in competition, maybe it changes things *slightly*, which would be part of why you don’t see such things on racing cars I suppose.

    For street use? Come on.
    I use my cars for both street and track- and you can feel it on the street.
    I can imagine additional weight exerts greater force the higher it sits on the car. Like a lever. But I bet most people wouldn’t notice the difference.
    Just throw a sand bag on the floor to offset it.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • graphicguygraphicguy Edmunds Poster EmeritusPosts: 12,369
    venture said:

    I wish they had blown the horn when they passed since I gave them a "thumbs up". Everything else looked General Lee.

    “Ding-dong”....’80s are calling!!!!! LOL! Unfortunately, some took that TV show literally, and still do. Someone should tell them it wasn’t factual!
    2019 Kia Stinger GT2
  • driver100driver100 Burlington, ON 7 mo/Tampa FL 5 moPosts: 27,228

    venture said:

    The two guys who were in it were doing their best impression of rednecks.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redneck

    That's a perjorative term. Like China Virus might be to some.


    Somebody better tell Jeff Foxworthy.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel a Certified Edmunds Poster.Posts: 16,364

    stickguy said:


    I bet a 4 door is lighter and stiffer than a 2 door also.

    If a coupe has a B pillar there shouldn't be any difference in torsional stiffness; in my experience with BMWs I've found that any weight difference is a function of how the car is optioned.
    stickguy said:


    If not having a moonroof for that reason is important, should be a reason to get a 4 door!

    The reason I don't like sunroofs is because they add @65 pounds to the highest point on the car- and in the case of the M3 or M4 it's even worse- because a hole in the roof replaces the CF roof with steel...

    65 pounds really isn't a lot if you're discussing cars that can weigh over 2 tons.
    My Club Sport weighs 2800 pounds- and it most definitely makes a difference.
    That would be about 2.3% added weight which really would affect the center of gravity by much and would have no noticeable difference in the handling unless you are pushing it to the limit and then just a minimum effect. You wouldn't notice it doing normal driving atound.

    2008 Sebring Ragtop, 2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel a Certified Edmunds Poster.Posts: 16,364

    ab348 said:

    It’s less the weight though, and more about where it is on the body, right? An additional 65 lbs lower down or distributed at the four corners is much different than top dead center.

    If you were driving the vehicle in competition, maybe it changes things *slightly*, which would be part of why you don’t see such things on racing cars I suppose.

    For street use? Come on.
    I use my cars for both street and track- and you can feel it on the street.
    do you have two identical cars the only difference is one has a sunroof and one doesn't?

    2008 Sebring Ragtop, 2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel a Certified Edmunds Poster.Posts: 16,364
    omarman said:

    casting a Persian

    Good one! After losing to Lennox Lewis Mike Tyson said "I might fade into Bolivian."

    Nope he is off solving mysteries.


    2008 Sebring Ragtop, 2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel a Certified Edmunds Poster.Posts: 16,364

    abacomike said:

    driver100 said:

    ab348 said:

    I disagree with the author’s clickbait premise that greed caused the collapse. A few dozens of millions spread around the upper management was a drop in the bucket compared to $20 billion in debt.

    I didn't need to visit the link to agree with your conclusion.
    Me too. If a CEO can make an extra few $billion profit a year because of his skills....then paying him an extra $million or two is well worth it.
    A few million or two would be appropriate, but the amount corporations dole out to top executives is usually 60-100 million dollars in bonuses which is ludicrous and outrageous while working peons slave on the line to make those billions in profits.

    Everyone in a successful company should benefit from huge profits because achieving record profits is more than realized by great leaders - it takes a great "team" to be truly successful.
    Executive compensation is a convenient straw man for those seeking to generate outrage over the unfairness of the capitalist system. A few years back there was a concerted effort to shame Walmart over the CEOs $20 million salary compared to the regular employee’s. The implication was that the $20 million should be distributed to the “team” if you will. What the advocates didn’t mention was this would result in an additional payment to the workers of only $2.

    Personally I don’t think you can hire a better CEO for $20 million than you could for $1 million but in the end that’s a matter for the shareholders. I think the idea of “fairness” in business is a red herring that leads to equality of poverty.

    Off my soapbox now.
    The CEO of Walmart pay distributed among all wal mart's employees would result in each employee getting just under $11 extra a year or a half a cent an hour presuming everyone works a 40 hour week. Most CEOs salaries work out to a small amount of money per employee.

    2008 Sebring Ragtop, 2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel a Certified Edmunds Poster.Posts: 16,364

    kyfdx said:


    A (relatively) local winery had an outdoor tasting complete with social distancing, a band, and this view from the rear of their property that the GF and I attended last night. Great night...until it rained about 2 hours into it. Still....good to do something like this. They made it safe.

    Valley Vineyards?
    http://www.hanoverwinery.com/
    Dont you mean hangover winery?

    2008 Sebring Ragtop, 2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • roadburnerroadburner Posts: 13,448
    It’s been a g

    ab348 said:

    It’s less the weight though, and more about where it is on the body, right? An additional 65 lbs lower down or distributed at the four corners is much different than top dead center.

    If you were driving the vehicle in competition, maybe it changes things *slightly*, which would be part of why you don’t see such things on racing cars I suppose.

    For street use? Come on.
    I use my cars for both street and track- and you can feel it on the street.
    do you have two identical cars the only difference is one has a sunroof and one doesn't?
    No, but I've driven another Club Sport with a sunroof on the street.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2014 M235i; 2009 Cooper Clubman; 1999 Wrangler; 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i

  • roadburnerroadburner Posts: 13,448
    Another great day- a couple of excellent races to watch, a nice drive in the Club Sport, and lunch at a favorite restaurant without the need to get reservations.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2014 M235i; 2009 Cooper Clubman; 1999 Wrangler; 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i

  • jmonroe1jmonroe1 Same as jmonroePosts: 1,615

    abacomike said:

    driver100 said:

    ab348 said:

    I disagree with the author’s clickbait premise that greed caused the collapse. A few dozens of millions spread around the upper management was a drop in the bucket compared to $20 billion in debt.

    I didn't need to visit the link to agree with your conclusion.
    Me too. If a CEO can make an extra few $billion profit a year because of his skills....then paying him an extra $million or two is well worth it.
    A few million or two would be appropriate, but the amount corporations dole out to top executives is usually 60-100 million dollars in bonuses which is ludicrous and outrageous while working peons slave on the line to make those billions in profits.

    Everyone in a successful company should benefit from huge profits because achieving record profits is more than realized by great leaders - it takes a great "team" to be truly successful.
    Executive compensation is a convenient straw man for those seeking to generate outrage over the unfairness of the capitalist system. A few years back there was a concerted effort to shame Walmart over the CEOs $20 million salary compared to the regular employee’s. The implication was that the $20 million should be distributed to the “team” if you will. What the advocates didn’t mention was this would result in an additional payment to the workers of only $2.

    Personally I don’t think you can hire a better CEO for $20 million than you could for $1 million but in the end that’s a matter for the shareholders. I think the idea of “fairness” in business is a red herring that leads to equality of poverty.

    Off my soapbox now.
    More fuel for the fire...the current commissioner of the NFL makes a little more than $40 million dollars a year.

    You mentioned fairness and business in the same breath, that is the definition of an oxymoron. Fairness is something our parents taught us. I can’t remember the last time I saw it practiced in business.

    jmonroe
  • suydamsuydam Posts: 4,582
    driver100 said:

    venture said:

    The two guys who were in it were doing their best impression of rednecks.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redneck

    That's a perjorative term. Like China Virus might be to some.


    Somebody better tell Jeff Foxworthy.
    Generally it’s okay to use a term like that if you’re from that group, because then you own it and it’s not a slur. That’s how Foxworthy uses it. If you’re not, best to avoid. Then you’re tarring someone with a well known put down. As a Jew, we have lots of in jokes amongst ourselves that would be highly Offensive if outsiders said them. This should not be a hard concept to grasp.
    '14 Buick Encore Convenience
    '17 Chevy Volt Premiere
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 27,754

    interesting G20. Obviously not ordered by a poseur/wearer

    wellll... it does have the driver assistance package. ;):D

    '03 F250 7.3, '07 ML63, '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '18 BMW X2. 52-car history and counting!

  • roadburnerroadburner Posts: 13,448
    edited July 12
    Back to the G20, now that Ohio has dropped its asinine front plate requirement(beloved only by bureaucratic dimwits and their clueless lackeys), I'm hoping that the 3er avoided having any holes drilled into the front fascia. While it isn't a deal breaker, it IS an unpleasant reminder of rank governmental stupidity.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2014 M235i; 2009 Cooper Clubman; 1999 Wrangler; 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i

  • ab348ab348 Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CanadaPosts: 13,153

    Long, long ago I was interested in how much the CEO pay for people "leading" large companies was. Mostly my interest was I held stock in and purchased the products of those companies. The major problem I learned over the years was there's an inside buddy system of people being put on boards of multiple companies. Cross pollution.

    I saw some of this in my last job. Board members charged with recruiting new Board members looked first to those that they knew from other Boards. Second on the list were people who would check off a diversity box. Sadly, last were those with neither of those qualities but who had exactly the type of skills the Board needed. It wasn't good.

    In terms of executive pay, there is a bootstrap effect in play. Compensation committees often hire consultants to provide survey info on comparative salary levels of other CEOs from supposedly comparable companies. In my experience those are easily rigged to give you the result you want, so you can always justify a bigger salary if you want to provide it. Unless the CEO has made enemies on the Board or is grossly inept (which the Board usually doesn't want to admit because they hired the person) they usually want to keep the CEO happy.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6, 1968 Oldsmobile Cutlass S Holiday Coupe

  • 28firefighter28firefighter Seattle, WAPosts: 6,808

    Back to the G20, now that Ohio has dropped its asinine front plate requirement(beloved only by bureaucratic dimwits and their clueless lackeys), I'm hoping that the 3er avoided having any holes drilled into the front fascia. While it isn't a deal breaker, it IS an unpleasant reminder of rank stupidity.

    Looks like it came from NJ. I bet it has one.
    2019 Subaru Outback 3.6R Limited, 2019 BMW i3 REX, 2004 BMW 330i ZHP 6MT
  • roadburnerroadburner Posts: 13,448
    edited July 12


    Looks like it came from NJ. I bet it has one.

    Yeah, the Carfax wasn't up the last time I checked- coming out of Woodcliff Lake it's definitely a BMW NA car.
    EDIT: I checked to see if it was Car and Driver's test car, but the VIN is different.

    I still have a soft spot for the Giulia(probably in my head), but I don't feel like tempting fate. And I'm disappointed that the stability control nannies cannot be totally disabled. More interference with the law of natural selection.





    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2014 M235i; 2009 Cooper Clubman; 1999 Wrangler; 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i

  • driver100driver100 Burlington, ON 7 mo/Tampa FL 5 moPosts: 27,228
    edited July 12
    :)

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel a Certified Edmunds Poster.Posts: 16,364
    jmonroe1 said:

    abacomike said:

    driver100 said:

    ab348 said:

    I disagree with the author’s clickbait premise that greed caused the collapse. A few dozens of millions spread around the upper management was a drop in the bucket compared to $20 billion in debt.

    I didn't need to visit the link to agree with your conclusion.
    Me too. If a CEO can make an extra few $billion profit a year because of his skills....then paying him an extra $million or two is well worth it.
    A few million or two would be appropriate, but the amount corporations dole out to top executives is usually 60-100 million dollars in bonuses which is ludicrous and outrageous while working peons slave on the line to make those billions in profits.

    Everyone in a successful company should benefit from huge profits because achieving record profits is more than realized by great leaders - it takes a great "team" to be truly successful.
    Executive compensation is a convenient straw man for those seeking to generate outrage over the unfairness of the capitalist system. A few years back there was a concerted effort to shame Walmart over the CEOs $20 million salary compared to the regular employee’s. The implication was that the $20 million should be distributed to the “team” if you will. What the advocates didn’t mention was this would result in an additional payment to the workers of only $2.

    Personally I don’t think you can hire a better CEO for $20 million than you could for $1 million but in the end that’s a matter for the shareholders. I think the idea of “fairness” in business is a red herring that leads to equality of poverty.

    Off my soapbox now.
    More fuel for the fire...the current commissioner of the NFL makes a little more than $40 million dollars a year.

    You mentioned fairness and business in the same breath, that is the definition of an oxymoron. Fairness is something our parents taught us. I can’t remember the last time I saw it practiced in business.

    jmonroe
    Someone once said that what is fair is dependent on whose ox is being gored.

    2008 Sebring Ragtop, 2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • 28firefighter28firefighter Seattle, WAPosts: 6,808


    Looks like it came from NJ. I bet it has one.

    Yeah, the Carfax wasn't up the last time I checked- coming out of Woodcliff Lake it's definitely a BMW NA car.
    EDIT: I checked to see if it was Car and Driver's test car, but the VIN is different.

    I still have a soft spot for the Giulia(probably in my head), but I don't feel like tempting fate. And I'm disappointed that the stability control nannies cannot be totally disabled. More interference with the law of natural selection.





    I don’t think you’ll be happy with this long term. Even with a tune I don’t think it’ll be quick enough for you. Why wouldn’t you look for an adequately equipped M340?
    2019 Subaru Outback 3.6R Limited, 2019 BMW i3 REX, 2004 BMW 330i ZHP 6MT
  • roadburnerroadburner Posts: 13,448
    All the used ones I've run across have been oddballs- strange color combos, no H-K, etc. I did find something way out in left field, but I won't disclose it just yet...

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2014 M235i; 2009 Cooper Clubman; 1999 Wrangler; 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i

  • roadburnerroadburner Posts: 13,448
    qbrozen said:

    interesting G20. Obviously not ordered by a poseur/wearer

    wellll... it does have the driver assistance package. ;):D
    But at least all that silliness can be disabled permanently.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2014 M235i; 2009 Cooper Clubman; 1999 Wrangler; 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i

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