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  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 54,451
    We share a birthday :)

    I recall those Passats being touted as pretty upmarket. Not a common sight anymore.
    sda said:


    I found the CPO binder that was created for the 06 Passat I bought. The date on the report was my birthday 5/9! Looking at the paperwork I paid $800 more for the 06 than I did the 18 Passat I currently have.

  • sdasda Indian Land, SCMember Posts: 5,167
    I've been called for a Federal case, drug distribution. I was selected as a juror. On the morning the trial was to begin we were told to wait in the jury room. For hours we waited. Then around 1pm we were called into the court room and were informed there had been a material error in the jury selection and we were dismissed and given credit for our attendance. They had to start the selection process again from the start.

    2018 VW Passat SE w/tech, 2016 Audi Q5 Premium Plus w/tech, 2006 Acura TL w/nav

  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel a Certified Edmunds Poster.Member Posts: 18,223
    Since we are talking jury duty has anyone ever heard of the "Zone of Death"? It's a 50 square mile strip of land that is Yellowstone National Park that extends into Idaho. All of Yellowstone is in the Wyoming Federal Court that would include that strip of land that is in Idaho. According to the US Constitution any jury needs to be pulled from that strip of land, it states that a jury has to be from the state and the district where the crime occurred. Since no one lives in this area you cannot get a Constituently correct jury for crimes committed there. So technically you can commit any major crime there and get away with it.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • driver100driver100 Burlington, ON 7 mo/Tampa FL 5 moMember Posts: 29,907
    sda said:


    I found the CPO binder that was created for the 06 Passat I bought. The date on the report was my birthday 5/9! Looking at the paperwork I paid $800 more for the 06 than I did the 18 Passat I currently have.

    Wasn't the older Passat more of a less expensive BMW....almost a luxury brand that was built in Germany? The 2018 is more of a popular priced car made in the U.S. to compete in the mid-sized field against Malibus and Fusions.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTMember Posts: 16,757
    C J Box wrote a book, one in the Joe Pickett series, that involved that 'Zone of Death' area.
    2020 Ford Explorer XLT
  • sdasda Indian Land, SCMember Posts: 5,167

    abacomike said:

    I have spent quite a bit of time trying to determine which topics have NOT been discussed or posted on this thread - and believe me it was not an easy task. 2500+ pages of posts trying to find and/or come up with "untouched" or "virgin" topics - an effort in futility, for the most part.

    From refrigerators to microwaves, dishwashers, alcoholic beverages, toilets, sinks, faucets, countertops, stoves, wooden decks, patios, windows, shutters, roofs, tires, every imaginable vehicle including the infamous Yugo, tires, wheels, fuel economy and gasoline prices, 0-60 speeds and times, engines, oil viscosity, paint and painting of everything from cars to walls to exterior of houses, wood floors, marble and tile, front doors, air conditioning, heating, humidifiers, pumps, foundations, eye surgery and glasses and contacts, insurance for just about everything including pre-planned burials, the effects of road salt on vehicles during the winter, car-washing, sunroofs-moonroofs-panorama roofs, leather, fiber optics, cable companies, computers, TV's, monitors, cruises, airplanes and flight experiences, old drivers and young drivers, newspapers, furniture, beds, mattresses, carpeting, the Ozone Layer, Australia and New Zealand and scores of countries, hospitals, cancer, thefts, colonoscopies, water sports, boating, lighting fixtures, bulbs, ceiling fans, car accidents, dump trucks, garbage trucks, back up cameras, parking assist, autonomous driving vehicles, US mail, email, telephones and mobile phones, banks, financing, leasing, Sirius/XM satellite radio, bitcoins, gold and silver bullion, UFO's, speakers and turntables and wattage and home theaters, and on and on and on.

    I was not able to find any posts that dealt with zoos, chimpanzees, apes, giraffes, hydrogen fusion on the sun, aardvarks, polygamy, hair dyes, etc.

    So I am making a suggestion that we try to post topics that have never been posted or that no one is interested in. Any suggestions? :):o:p;):DB)

    OK let's talk polygamy. Polygamy is defined as having more than one wife, the punishment for polygamy is having more than one wife.
    Talk about punishment, wow!

    2018 VW Passat SE w/tech, 2016 Audi Q5 Premium Plus w/tech, 2006 Acura TL w/nav

  • sdasda Indian Land, SCMember Posts: 5,167
    edited April 2021
    driver100 said:

    sda said:


    I found the CPO binder that was created for the 06 Passat I bought. The date on the report was my birthday 5/9! Looking at the paperwork I paid $800 more for the 06 than I did the 18 Passat I currently have.

    Wasn't the older Passat more of a less expensive BMW....almost a luxury brand that was built in Germany? The 2018 is more of a popular priced car made in the U.S. to compete in the mid-sized field against Malibus and Fusions.

    It was meant to be a more upscale car than others in its class however it wasn't a BMW competitor. The 06 was German built yet wasn't very reliable and was expensive, in the German manner, to maintain or repair. I find it interesting that the 'watered down' TN built Passat, with a lot more safety features and feature rich overall is priced about the same as what the 06 listed for, just under $30k. My 06 rattled and squeaked over coarse surfaces, the 18 is tight as a drum. I do miss the power and Dynaudio from the 06, but the 18 runs happily on RUG.

    2018 VW Passat SE w/tech, 2016 Audi Q5 Premium Plus w/tech, 2006 Acura TL w/nav

  • driver100driver100 Burlington, ON 7 mo/Tampa FL 5 moMember Posts: 29,907
    @sda Just putting this out there as a partial explanation. It seems to me the cost of cars was capped a bit by more automation and more building of cars in different parts of the world....cheaper labor.
    Our 2013 Passat was pretty bare bones....but for $23000 it was solid, nice electronics, comfortable....a lot of content and quality for the price. Your 2018 is a much better car than our 2013, and yet after inflation it probably costs less than ours.

    I think of it as the "Amazon affect". Amazon even in spite of all the harm they do, has kept the price of goods very low. You have competing dealers and companies that can market cheap goods made in other countries. And, you don't rely on your regular chain or local store any more........the world is at your fingertips, literally.

    Some friends were upset they paid $25 for Hoover brand vaccum cleaner bags at the hardware store. They didn't trust using their credit card to use for amazon so we ordered off brand replacement bags from Amazon for them. They had 5 stars so a safe bet.....$12 and at their door the next day!

    To be successful today companies have to find ways to be efficient, and find ways to cut costs - and basically offer more for less money.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Member Posts: 26,187

    C J Box wrote a book, one in the Joe Pickett series, that involved that 'Zone of Death' area.

    X2. Love CJ Box's books.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • driver100driver100 Burlington, ON 7 mo/Tampa FL 5 moMember Posts: 29,907

    C J Box wrote a book, one in the Joe Pickett series, that involved that 'Zone of Death' area.

    X2. Love CJ Box's books.
    I am reading a novel about a family with 1 son and 3 daughters.......it takes place in the late 60s and 70s. One of the daughters has a bedroom in the attic and the ceiling fan broke down so it is very hot so they buy her an air conditioner. That is the only time I have even thought of a ceiling fan in years....and what am I getting....pop up ads for ceiling fans........now google can read my mind!

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • abacomikeabacomike South FloridaMember Posts: 11,927
    After 12 days trying to get Genesis to respond to my concerns about the inoperative Genesis Connect system in my new G90 (can’t connect for roadside assistance using the SOS button or concierge services by pressing the Connect button), I got a call from Genesis USA this afternoon.

    The gentleman I spoke with was in California (Genesis USA headquarters). He could not believe my dealership’s service concierge would not take my car in and contact Genesis engineers to solve the problem. He also could not believe the dealership’s concierge pointed to the sky and told me it was a satellite problem and he could do nothing to help me until Genesis solved the satellite issue.

    The Genesis representative assured me that my issues had nothing to do with malfunctioning satellites because they have no satellite problems and furthermore the problem is that my car is not connecting to Verizon cell towers which is how the system operates.

    He assured me that once he has made contact with the dealership’s service manager and the concierge, the process will begin immediately to have my car brought in for corrective service and I would be given a vehicle to use during this process. He was amazed at the lack of responsiveness from the dealer and was apologetic.

    The real issue is the fact that I am dealing with a Hyundai service team that has no understanding of how luxury car owners are to be treated. The problem is that there is no stand-alone Genesis dealership and service department. The saga continues.🤨😩

    2021 Genesis G90

  • abacomikeabacomike South FloridaMember Posts: 11,927
    edited April 2021
    driver100 said:

    C J Box wrote a book, one in the Joe Pickett series, that involved that 'Zone of Death' area.

    X2. Love CJ Box's books.
    I am reading a novel about a family with 1 son and 3 daughters.......it takes place in the late 60s and 70s. One of the daughters has a bedroom in the attic and the ceiling fan broke down so it is very hot so they buy her an air conditioner. That is the only time I have even thought of a ceiling fan in years....and what am I getting....pop up ads for ceiling fans........now google can read my mind!
    We don’t need to read your mind, driver100 - whatever you are thinking winds up in a post here on Edmunds. 🤪😜🤓

    2021 Genesis G90

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Member Posts: 26,187
    I guess that adds a whole new meaning to being "open minded."

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Member Posts: 26,187
    And a report for @driver100
    My son still is doing fine with his Venza. I think he did say
    the battery power doesn't last as long as he expected before
    it kicks in the 2.5 L ICE.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • mcdawggmcdawgg Member Posts: 1,712

    mcdawgg said:

    My dealer has a red 3.0 Premium for $49k. Cheap enough but I’m still undecided.
    And I HATE buyatoyota.com; when you search inventory the site won’t reveal which dealer has the car.
    Idiots.

    I can understand why their site won't reveal that information. However, CarGurus website allows you to easily find what you want.
    I know that the Ford, Hyundai, Kia, as well as the Stellantis websites-to name just a few-tell you exactly where the car is located. To me the inventory search function is absolutely worthless if you can’t locate the car.

    CARGURS tells me exactly where it's at, problem solved.
  • driver100driver100 Burlington, ON 7 mo/Tampa FL 5 moMember Posts: 29,907

    And a report for @driver100
    My son still is doing fine with his Venza. I think he did say
    the battery power doesn't last as long as he expected before
    it kicks in the 2.5 L ICE.

    Thanks for the update imid....I appreciate the follow up. I have never heard of a car going as far as claimed on battery power, either it is too cold or too hot and the battery won't last unless conditions are perfect. As long as you know that going in, not a big problem. My concern would be reliability as the car gets older, and if it needs more maintenance. Usually if more can go wrong....then more will go wrong. But can't go wrong with a Toyota.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • driver100driver100 Burlington, ON 7 mo/Tampa FL 5 moMember Posts: 29,907
    abacomike said:

    driver100 said:

    C J Box wrote a book, one in the Joe Pickett series, that involved that 'Zone of Death' area.

    X2. Love CJ Box's books.
    I am reading a novel about a family with 1 son and 3 daughters.......it takes place in the late 60s and 70s. One of the daughters has a bedroom in the attic and the ceiling fan broke down so it is very hot so they buy her an air conditioner. That is the only time I have even thought of a ceiling fan in years....and what am I getting....pop up ads for ceiling fans........now google can read my mind!
    We don’t need to read your mind, driver100 - whatever you are thinking winds up in a post here on Edmunds. 🤪😜🤓
    My mind is an open book :p

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 15,454
    abacomike said:

    After 12 days trying to get Genesis to respond to my concerns about the inoperative Genesis Connect system in my new G90 (can’t connect for roadside assistance using the SOS button or concierge services by pressing the Connect button), I got a call from Genesis USA this afternoon.

    The gentleman I spoke with was in California (Genesis USA headquarters). He could not believe my dealership’s service concierge would not take my car in and contact Genesis engineers to solve the problem. He also could not believe the dealership’s concierge pointed to the sky and told me it was a satellite problem and he could do nothing to help me until Genesis solved the satellite issue.

    The Genesis representative assured me that my issues had nothing to do with malfunctioning satellites because they have no satellite problems and furthermore the problem is that my car is not connecting to Verizon cell towers which is how the system operates.

    He assured me that once he has made contact with the dealership’s service manager and the concierge, the process will begin immediately to have my car brought in for corrective service and I would be given a vehicle to use during this process. He was amazed at the lack of responsiveness from the dealer and was apologetic.

    The real issue is the fact that I am dealing with a Hyundai service team that has no understanding of how luxury car owners are to be treated. The problem is that there is no stand-alone Genesis dealership and service department. The saga continues.🤨😩

    Which is exactly why I hesitate to buy a Stinger GT2 or a Supra 3.0- the likelihood of abysmal customer service after the sale.

    I had a client at BMW who bought an X5 loaner. I was unable to activate the wi-fi hotspot; I tried everything.
    Solution? I gave her a new X5 loaner to drive until the problem was sorted. It turned out to be the fault of AT&T; for some reason they had assigned the car's phone number. Even though the telematics have a virtual SIM card, neither BMWNA or BMWAG could tell us how to change i, and the NA techs authorized replacing the telematics system. Problem solved and the customer was happy.

    Next time you see that alleged concierge, ask him what I asked a poster on another forum:
    "Does your butt ever get sore from all the half-bake opinions you pull out of it?"

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2014 M235i; 2009 Cooper Clubman; 1999 Wrangler; 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2018 330i xDrive

  • jmonroe1jmonroe1 Pittsburgh areaMember Posts: 3,844
    tjc78 said:
    Why not just call @stickguy? He could be there before Amazon ships.

    jmonroe
    '15 Genesis just like jmonroe, '18 Legacy Limited with 3.6R (Mrs. j's)
  • jmonroe1jmonroe1 Pittsburgh areaMember Posts: 3,844
    sda said:

    I've been called for a Federal case, drug distribution. I was selected as a juror. On the morning the trial was to begin we were told to wait in the jury room. For hours we waited. Then around 1pm we were called into the court room and were informed there had been a material error in the jury selection and we were dismissed and given credit for our attendance. They had to start the selection process again from the start.

    That’s original. How long did it take you to dream up how to do that? :s

    jmonroe
    '15 Genesis just like jmonroe, '18 Legacy Limited with 3.6R (Mrs. j's)
  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Member Posts: 19,322
    stickguy said:

    another sign of the new times. I recently got called for jury duty (petit jury, for the county, 1 day or 1 trial). Didn't think it was long enough since my last time, but they do.

    anyway, in the old days, they sent you an invite and told you what morning to show up at the courthouse in Camden, and you spent the day in a huge room lined with uncomfortable chairs and way too many people. Unless you got unlucky and got sent to a courtroom. At some point, they ran out of juries to seat and sent you home. A particularly inefficient use of people's time.

    now, they assign you your day, and tell you to be online at a certain hour (haven't gotten those instructions yet). They also sent via Email a link to a questionnaire about the tech you have (wifi, data plan, laptop, zoom experience, etc.) So I guess an easy out is to say you have no way to get onto the internet!

    so the process seems to be you hang out at home connected to the internet (so far, sounds like every other day...) and if they need you you have to zoom in for jury picking. And if you are really unlucky and get put on a jury, might have to go in to the courthouse at some point, or do some of it from home.

    Going to be weird. Hopefully I will avoid getting picked.

    So what happens if you don’t have a computer or what you have doesn’t support zoom? Maybe you get to be the defendant instead of a juror.

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2004 Chevy Van, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • ventureventure Central PAMember Posts: 2,237
    I asked one of my financial advisors how much I paid last year in fees and commissions. He said he didn't know and couldn't find out even after calling the funds I am in. (This is almost all mutual funds.)

    That doesn't seem right, does it?

    2020 Ascent Limited, 2020 Legacy Touring XT

  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Member Posts: 19,322
    venture said:

    I asked one of my financial advisors how much I paid last year in fees and commissions. He said he didn't know and couldn't find out even after calling the funds I am in. (This is almost all mutual funds.)

    That doesn't seem right, does it?

    Don’t all mutual funds publish what their fees are in the prospectus? But you’re right, they should notify you what that exact figure is for you. My Vanguard funds don’t tell me either but I know they automatically take them out.

    Vanguard fees are usually pretty small but some fund families can be over 1% annually.

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2004 Chevy Van, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Member Posts: 19,322
    Yesterday as we pulled into our company lot on the other side of the airport we came upon the manager and a county Sheriff unloading one of our cars. They were taking multiple shopping bags out of the trunk and back seat. It looked like cars we sometimes get returned that are full of trash but that wouldn’t trigger a police call.

    Turns out that along with all the trash was a loaded hand gun. Speculation of hit men and drug dealers and why they would return a car with all that evidence occupied our conversation.

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2004 Chevy Van, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • ventureventure Central PAMember Posts: 2,237

    venture said:

    I asked one of my financial advisors how much I paid last year in fees and commissions. He said he didn't know and couldn't find out even after calling the funds I am in. (This is almost all mutual funds.)

    That doesn't seem right, does it?

    Don’t all mutual funds publish what their fees are in the prospectus? But you’re right, they should notify you what that exact figure is for you. My Vanguard funds don’t tell me either but I know they automatically take them out.

    Vanguard fees are usually pretty small but some fund families can be over 1% annually.
    Most of these are American Funds and, yes, they take them out automatically. The little bell in my head started ringing when he said nobody ever asked before.

    He did give me the percentages and they range from 0.57 up to 0.92%. Getting a dollar amount seems impossible. I may move them.

    2020 Ascent Limited, 2020 Legacy Touring XT

  • ab348ab348 Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CanadaMember Posts: 16,210
    A lot of the funds I was in prior to retirement (bank-managed funds) were in the 1.5% range which struck me as excessive, although I think typical of Canadian banks. For some years now I have used ETFs instead which offer lower fees.

    There is a bit of marketing war going on up here with new-age investment firms like Wealthsimple and others advertising their low fees using some pretty aggressive ads:



    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTMember Posts: 16,757
    I also have American Funds in one of my retirement accounts(since 1988) and can see where it would be a pain to calculate.
    Most funds have some distributions during the year and I'm not sure how often expenses are deducted.
    Expense ratio times fund value will give you a ballpark figure.
    2020 Ford Explorer XLT
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLMember Posts: 6,022
    edited April 2021
    Funds expenses and fees are subtracted every day from NAV before you even see it. That's how you see why index funds will trail their indexes, as every day small value is taken away from that pot and never comes back (this is a reason why funds fees really matter, as e.g. fund with say 2% fee would reduce 10% return before fees to 8% (20 percent reduction). Essentially 1/365 of expense ratio is taken from current fund's assets (cash position) then the rest is calculated as NAV based on day's closing price of each equity, bond, or whatever else they own.

    The distributions are fun, though. Once a year/six months/quarter (depends on the fund) they officially return all the trading gains and losses in form of a quasi-dividend (distribution). It's basically an accounting operation - assuming you'll reinvest the distribution immediately back into the shares, the total value doesn't change, but price per share resets to a lower value (assuming there are gains) and you may get some cash or additional shares on that day. And of course you get a privilege of putting these "gains" on your 1040 that tax year, So if you bought that fund couple of days before you just gained taxable income without actually getting any real return (it evens out when you sell, as you'll get lower base for your sale). This can sting in funds with large turnover (the ones that trade often), as the gains/losses accumulate and distribution (i.e. tax liability) may be fairly large. On the other hand, if the funds are in a qualified retirement or HSA account, you don't care, it's just some accounting math that doesn't matter to you.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLMember Posts: 6,022
    edited April 2021
    venture said:

    I asked one of my financial advisors how much I paid last year in fees and commissions. He said he didn't know and couldn't find out even after calling the funds I am in. (This is almost all mutual funds.)

    That doesn't seem right, does it?

    He doesn't know???? What kind of "advisor" doesn't know what funds he/she is putting their clients into? If they "don't know" how they are compensated, they're likely taking huge commissions somewhere through the back door. This absolutely ridiculous. Most likely he doesn't want you find out. I'd look very hard into the whole thing - start with ticker search of your funds (exact ticker, as funds may have multiple share classes), then look at their prospectuses, by law they all have simulation of fees paid on $10K initial investment over given periods of time (typically 1, 5, 10 years), you can more-less scale it to your positions.

    Bottom line, if you're not paying him a direct direct fee (which you would know), you're paying through these funds. Even if you are paying him some direct fee, you still have to watch out, as many big houses use that as a platform for further steer toward higher fee funds, as they're compensated by it.

    In today's world of disclosures his "I don't know and I can't find out" act is not just a red flag - it's and equivalent of that "Amber Alert" sound you get in your smartphone.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Member Posts: 19,322
    venture said:

    venture said:

    I asked one of my financial advisors how much I paid last year in fees and commissions. He said he didn't know and couldn't find out even after calling the funds I am in. (This is almost all mutual funds.)

    That doesn't seem right, does it?

    Don’t all mutual funds publish what their fees are in the prospectus? But you’re right, they should notify you what that exact figure is for you. My Vanguard funds don’t tell me either but I know they automatically take them out.

    Vanguard fees are usually pretty small but some fund families can be over 1% annually.
    Most of these are American Funds and, yes, they take them out automatically. The little bell in my head started ringing when he said nobody ever asked before.

    He did give me the percentages and they range from 0.57 up to 0.92%. Getting a dollar amount seems impossible. I may move them.
    Can’t you just multiply your balance by the percentage?

    My Vanguard funds range from .015% for index funds up to maybe .46% for actively managed ones.

    You probably won’t get better information from anyone else either. Must be like hidden dealer fees with cars.

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2004 Chevy Van, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 44,672
    I thought the don’t know and can’t tell was the exact amount of fees paid, as you described in your prior summary.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD , 2022 Ford Maverick Lariat Ecoboost FWD.

  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 202,876
    I'd be concerned about the direct fees and commissions your advisor is receiving. Some mutual funds pay advisors commissions, which is why the fund's fees are so high.

    Especially, if your advisor is trading stocks for your account. My stock trading is commission free at Schwab. And, the mutual fund fees are dirt cheap for my 401K at Vanguard.

    But, then again, I don't pay an advisor.

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  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Member Posts: 19,322
    edited April 2021

    I also have American Funds in one of my retirement accounts(since 1988) and can see where it would be a pain to calculate.
    Most funds have some distributions during the year and I'm not sure how often expenses are deducted.
    Expense ratio times fund value will give you a ballpark figure.

    I have Fidelity funds in my company 401k and those expense ratios are about the same as Vanguard. EDIT: I actually checked and the Vanguard fees are actually a lot less than Fidelity, like less than half as much. Like you, it never occurred to ask for an accounting .

    I do know that years ago I had a bank run retirement account and the fees were incredible. When I finally smartened up and dumped them I got nailed with a 4% redemption fee which compared to today is criminal.

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2004 Chevy Van, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • ab348ab348 Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CanadaMember Posts: 16,210
    Some years ago I had a variety of full-fee funds in my retirement account. One day I noticed that while the others all showed distributions once or twice a year (they would use those to increase the number of units you owned), one of them, a dividend fund, never showed that ever. So I asked my advisor about it, since being a dividend fund I would have expected to see, y'know, dividends. She said she found that strange as she had not noticed it herself until then. She apparently asked the fund managers and got an answer she didn't like. I can't recall the exact wording but we concluded that essentially the only growth we would see would be if the unit prices went up due to market increases. She recommended I get out of it and into something else, which I did, and she stopped recommending it to her clients.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Member Posts: 19,322
    dino001 said:

    Funds expenses and fees are subtracted every day from NAV before you even see it. That's how you see why index funds will trail their indexes, as every day small value is taken away from that pot and never comes back (this is a reason why funds fees really matter, as e.g. fund with say 2% fee would reduce 10% return before fees to 8% (20 percent reduction). Essentially 1/365 of expense ratio is taken from current fund's assets (cash position) then the rest is calculated as NAV based on day's closing price of each equity, bond, or whatever else they own.

    The distributions are fun, though. Once a year/six months/quarter (depends on the fund) they officially return all the trading gains and losses in form of a quasi-dividend (distribution). It's basically an accounting operation - assuming you'll reinvest the distribution immediately back into the shares, the total value doesn't change, but price per share resets to a lower value (assuming there are gains) and you may get some cash or additional shares on that day. And of course you get a privilege of putting these "gains" on your 1040 that tax year, So if you bought that fund couple of days before you just gained taxable income without actually getting any real return (it evens out when you sell, as you'll get lower base for your sale). This can sting in funds with large turnover (the ones that trade often), as the gains/losses accumulate and distribution (i.e. tax liability) may be fairly large. On the other hand, if the funds are in a qualified retirement or HSA account, you don't care, it's just some accounting math that doesn't matter to you.

    That’s why I’m slowly moving all my money into our Roth IRA accounts.

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2004 Chevy Van, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTMember Posts: 16,757
    You can type your fund symbol into your browser and look for the Morningstar review(one point of reference) to get an idea of how it is performing and how it compares to its' peers.
    For example, AM Funds 2025 target date is currently ranked 38 out of 212 and Vanguard 2025 is ranked 42 out of 212.
    There is also lots of other info in each review.
    2020 Ford Explorer XLT
  • graphicguygraphicguy Edmunds Poster EmeritusMember Posts: 13,217
    venture said:

    venture said:

    I asked one of my financial advisors how much I paid last year in fees and commissions. He said he didn't know and couldn't find out even after calling the funds I am in. (This is almost all mutual funds.)

    That doesn't seem right, does it?

    Don’t all mutual funds publish what their fees are in the prospectus? But you’re right, they should notify you what that exact figure is for you. My Vanguard funds don’t tell me either but I know they automatically take them out.

    Vanguard fees are usually pretty small but some fund families can be over 1% annually.
    Most of these are American Funds and, yes, they take them out automatically. The little bell in my head started ringing when he said nobody ever asked before.

    He did give me the percentages and they range from 0.57 up to 0.92%. Getting a dollar amount seems impossible. I may move them.
    I would move them, too. S/He should provide the fees on request.
    2021 Acura TLX A-Spec-Platinum White Pearl
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZMember Posts: 5,216
    edited April 2021
    venture said:

    He did give me the percentages and they range from 0.57 up to 0.92.

    I've heard that under 1% is OK, under 0.5% is about as good as most funds can offer. Vanguard index funds run from 0.15% to 0.3%.

    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • jmonroe1jmonroe1 Pittsburgh areaMember Posts: 3,844
    driver100 said:

    abacomike said:

    driver100 said:

    C J Box wrote a book, one in the Joe Pickett series, that involved that 'Zone of Death' area.

    X2. Love CJ Box's books.
    I am reading a novel about a family with 1 son and 3 daughters.......it takes place in the late 60s and 70s. One of the daughters has a bedroom in the attic and the ceiling fan broke down so it is very hot so they buy her an air conditioner. That is the only time I have even thought of a ceiling fan in years....and what am I getting....pop up ads for ceiling fans........now google can read my mind!
    We don’t need to read your mind, driver100 - whatever you are thinking winds up in a post here on Edmunds. 🤪😜🤓
    My mind is an open book :p
    I’d say your mind is like opening up a mine. :(

    jmonroe
    '15 Genesis just like jmonroe, '18 Legacy Limited with 3.6R (Mrs. j's)
  • jmonroe1jmonroe1 Pittsburgh areaMember Posts: 3,844
    venture said:

    I asked one of my financial advisors how much I paid last year in fees and commissions. He said he didn't know and couldn't find out even after calling the funds I am in. (This is almost all mutual funds.)

    That doesn't seem right, does it?

    Time for another financial advisor. IMO that is a crock. I know EXACTLY what my advisor charges and my quarterly statements show it.

    jmonroe
    '15 Genesis just like jmonroe, '18 Legacy Limited with 3.6R (Mrs. j's)
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 44,672
    Advisor, yes, but that’s not the fees the funds skim off the top.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD , 2022 Ford Maverick Lariat Ecoboost FWD.

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTMember Posts: 16,757
    Low expenses are very good, but the returns need to be weighed against that, too.
    2020 Ford Explorer XLT
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 44,672

    Low expenses are very good, but the returns need to be weighed against that, too.

    It’s the net that counts, not the gross! Corollary to, it’s not what you earn, it’s what you have left over every month that matters.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD , 2022 Ford Maverick Lariat Ecoboost FWD.

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLMember Posts: 6,022
    edited April 2021

    venture said:

    He did give me the percentages and they range from 0.57 up to 0.92.

    I've heard that under 1% is OK, under 0.5% is about as good as most funds can offer. Vanguard index funds run from 0.15% to 0.3%.

    I think it all depends on type of the fund. Aggressive actively managed small cap will likely get somewhere around 1 percent, perhaps even 1.5% and it's OK in my book, as higher risk+cost/higher reward. Same with some "emerging market", "emerging industry" type of fund. But one should not put too much money into those. The other side of the spectrum is S&P 500 index fund - no more than 0.1%, you can find some much lower, but on many small company 401k plans you may have to swallow slightly more (mine has something like 0.22%, which I think is absolutely ridiculous, but oh, well, can't get anything else from there). Actively managed large cap funds that just "trim" around the edges of S&P should not be more than 0.5%-0.6%. I don't even bother to look at "Target" funds. They essentially have a "selection fee" put on top of the selected fund fee and their disclosures are even more convoluted. The biggest offenders are near target date funds (say next 5-10 years). Absolutely horrendous, considering their risk and investment profiles - not unusual to see something like 0.8%-1% fee. If they do their job properly, they should be invested something like 60-80 percent in 10-year 1.5% Treasury Bonds, or similar paper, which you can see how that fee eats almost all of it. If they show better results, then it means they're not doing what they're promising to do, putting people's near retirement in a very risky position to goose up their numbers. They can get away with it in good markets, but should we hit some down market, there will be a lot of tears and blame game. These target funds are a scam to benefit large providers, not the future retirees, IMHO. Perhaps Vanguard is better (they generally have a very good track record on fees), I didn't investigate it, but anything that's offer in my workplace is garbage when it comes to fees, at least in relative terms.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLMember Posts: 6,022
    edited April 2021

    Low expenses are very good, but the returns need to be weighed against that, too.

    True, but it's a proven fact that some 80% of actively managed funds (it varies depending on years) trail their general benchmark index in long term (over 5 years). They may have a single good year, but once you slide the scale to longer period, these magic numbers are often not so magic. It's a cumulative effect from years of fees being taken in both good and bad times. So if you put money in the whatever low-cost index fund/ETF (run by a computer), you'll likely come on top of the fund run by a "professional". The reason is that majority of these "proprietary selection" funds are actually closet index funds. They take index and then slide percentages up and down per sector, usually within small ranges. But now you're paying for all that "professional" work. Why? These guys want to keep their jobs. If they do poorly against the benchmark index, especially during upmarket (say they invested in a "wrong" sector), they're fired. If they trail by just a point or two during bad times, no big deal. This results in portfolios staying really close to benchmark index. Peter Lynch summarized it with a saying "nobody got fired for buying IBM stock" (today you'd need to replace that name with say Apple, or Microsoft).

    BTW, in today's world there is no more excuse to those funds with share classes with 5% sales loads. Zero.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • driver100driver100 Burlington, ON 7 mo/Tampa FL 5 moMember Posts: 29,907
    jmonroe1 said:

    driver100 said:

    abacomike said:

    driver100 said:

    C J Box wrote a book, one in the Joe Pickett series, that involved that 'Zone of Death' area.

    X2. Love CJ Box's books.
    I am reading a novel about a family with 1 son and 3 daughters.......it takes place in the late 60s and 70s. One of the daughters has a bedroom in the attic and the ceiling fan broke down so it is very hot so they buy her an air conditioner. That is the only time I have even thought of a ceiling fan in years....and what am I getting....pop up ads for ceiling fans........now google can read my mind!
    We don’t need to read your mind, driver100 - whatever you are thinking winds up in a post here on Edmunds. 🤪😜🤓
    My mind is an open book :p
    I’d say your mind is like opening up a mine. :(

    jmonroe
    Like a gold mine....lots of valuable stuff.......thanx :p

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Member Posts: 19,322
    kyfdx said:

    I'd be concerned about the direct fees and commissions your advisor is receiving. Some mutual funds pay advisors commissions, which is why the fund's fees are so high.

    Especially, if your advisor is trading stocks for your account. My stock trading is commission free at Schwab. And, the mutual fund fees are dirt cheap for my 401K at Vanguard.

    But, then again, I don't pay an advisor.

    I remember some years back (when they still had a financial page in the newspaper) reporters put some money into a firm which used an advisor to pick stocks. Then they hung the financial page stock listings on the wall and threw darts at it. Whatever stock the dart hit, they bought.

    After some months they compared results and found that the darts had a better return than the advisor.

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2004 Chevy Van, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLMember Posts: 6,022
    stickguy said:

    Low expenses are very good, but the returns need to be weighed against that, too.

    It’s the net that counts, not the gross! Corollary to, it’s not what you earn, it’s what you have left over every month that matters.
    To be fair, there are some funds that outperform benchmarks after the fees, but most of the time it doesn't last longer than 10 years. Then they start trailing. Usually because they land on the cover of Morningstar and other publications and people rush in buying their shares. As a result, they have too much money to put into work and the fund starts resembling the index. OR, their brilliant idea from last 10 years (say oil or bank stocks before 2005) turns sour them in the next 10 years. They almost never stay above index for longer than 10 years.

    Also all these ads that show that XYZ has 80% of the funds that beat the averages - what they don't tell is that they closed all those trailing funds before they bought the ad ("survivor bias").

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLMember Posts: 6,022

    kyfdx said:

    I'd be concerned about the direct fees and commissions your advisor is receiving. Some mutual funds pay advisors commissions, which is why the fund's fees are so high.

    Especially, if your advisor is trading stocks for your account. My stock trading is commission free at Schwab. And, the mutual fund fees are dirt cheap for my 401K at Vanguard.

    But, then again, I don't pay an advisor.

    I remember some years back (when they still had a financial page in the newspaper) reporters put some money into a firm which used an advisor to pick stocks. Then they hung the financial page stock listings on the wall and threw darts at it. Whatever stock the dart hit, they bought.

    After some months they compared results and found that the darts had a better return than the advisor.
    Darts weren't afraid to be fired for buying some obscure stock...

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLMember Posts: 6,022

    venture said:

    venture said:

    I asked one of my financial advisors how much I paid last year in fees and commissions. He said he didn't know and couldn't find out even after calling the funds I am in. (This is almost all mutual funds.)

    That doesn't seem right, does it?

    Don’t all mutual funds publish what their fees are in the prospectus? But you’re right, they should notify you what that exact figure is for you. My Vanguard funds don’t tell me either but I know they automatically take them out.

    Vanguard fees are usually pretty small but some fund families can be over 1% annually.
    Most of these are American Funds and, yes, they take them out automatically. The little bell in my head started ringing when he said nobody ever asked before.

    He did give me the percentages and they range from 0.57 up to 0.92%. Getting a dollar amount seems impossible. I may move them.
    I would move them, too. S/He should provide the fees on request.
    That calculation could be tricky, as it's based on the daily balance. Not sure if advisors have spreadsheets set up for that, but I think they should, it's their job. At least Venture got the fee disclosure in terms of the percentage, I originally thought he couldn't get that one, which was just mindblowing to me. They probably wouldn't tell how much the funds pay that guy back from these fees (watch for term "12b-1", these are "marketing" fees paid to the advisors directly). But if you a math type (engineer), you can break it down, like I described: divide the fee by 365, then look at your statements for daily balances on each fund. So say your fee was 0.5%, you had 100 shares and they stayed stable at $100, the fee would be 0.005/365*100*100*365 = $50. Of course not so simple with daily price changes and purchases made over the course of they year, but perhaps you could use some simplification, like average weekly/monthly price to get at least close to the number they skimmed of the top.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

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