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Comments

  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel a Certified Edmunds Poster.Posts: 15,924

    @stickguy said:
    Farmer, the I6 is extremely durable engine. If you are willing to maintain the car ($$) right, no reason it can't go that far. Just have to replace the various valves and sensors (commonly known failure points) as needed, and keep up with fluids.

    that particular car? Pass, with the body damage.

    Durable engine or not it is still 15 years old with nearly 200K miles on it. That makes it a crap shoot regardless of the price, to much of a possibility that it would be a rolling money pit.

    2008 Sebring Ragtop, 2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • driver100driver100 Burlington, ON 7 mo/Tampa FL 5 moPosts: 25,905

    Cheerio from the ferrie from Wales to Ireland...4 hours!
    Wi Fi is on and off and days are long. I'll have to catch up when I get back...Mon June 30.

    Richard I saw the post with your student who had a sign...10 items or FEWER. Probably the only grammatically correct supermarket in the USA!

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • sterlingdogsterlingdog North CarolinaPosts: 6,984

    I think that I have spoken too soon. I mentioned that I was happy to be receiving an email alert when people post on this forum. Now I am receiving an email alert for every single post! This could turn into a nightmare on a busy day for my inbox. Is this happening to anyone else? My question is this: Can my account be alerted once a day like it used to be and, if not, how do I turn off the email alert for this site? I could just use my bookmark once or twice a day to check on posts here. Help!

    Richard

  • stickguystickguy Posts: 35,151

    I turned off the notifications. there were I believe different options (all new posts, replay to my post) but i don't need the emails. I just check in and see what is in the bookmarks.

    2019 Acura TLX A-spec 4 cyl. (mine), and 2013 Acura RDX AWD (wife's)

  • mako1amako1a VirginiaPosts: 1,855

    Richard, I leave this site up 24 hrs along with a few others so that when I hit refresh, it goes to where I left off and I just scroll down. You don't need an email stating there are new posts...there will always be new posts. (especially when driver gets back from his vacation).

    2013 Mustang GT, 2001 GMC Yukon Denali

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 24,096
    edited June 2014

    @sterlingdog said:

    I mentioned that I was happy to be receiving an email alert when people post on this forum.

    This is the page you need. Uncheck some of the notification boxes.

    To get there, click on your username in the box at the right on every page.

    Then click on "Edit Profile"

    Then click on "Notification preferences."

    Then uncheck the types of notication you don't want.

    These are the ones I have checked:

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 24,096
    edited June 2014

    @sterlingdog said:
    I could just use my bookmark once or twice a day to check on posts here. Help!\

    As long as you have clicked on the star at the top of "Buying and Selling Cars..." and it is yellow,
    this topic will show up in the your bookmarked list just like the "Stories from the Sales Frontlines"
    used to do (still does).

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • sterlingdogsterlingdog North CarolinaPosts: 6,984

    Thanks guys! What a help you are to a friend in need. I bragged too soon as well. I may have gotten here by myself and bookmarked the site correctly, but, as you can see, I still needed my poster buddies to get me straight. Thanks again!

    Richard

  • abacomikeabacomike South FloridaPosts: 10,686
    edited June 2014
    "SALES EXPERIENCE"

    My downstairs neighbor went to the Toyota Dealership yesterday and called me this morning to ask if I could get him a good deal on a new Camry. I agreed to accompany him back at noon this afternoon.

    We met the salesman who worked with him yesterday at 12:15 PM this afternoon. The car he was looking at was a 2014 Camry LE 4 cyl base car with cloth interior. MSRP was $24,523 and the Edmunds Tru-Value price $21,523.

    He wanted a better deal than the Tru-Value price. The dealer had offered to sell the car for $22,125 + dealer fees of $599. I showed him my old business card and told him we would buy the car right now for $20,000 including dealer fees + tax, tags and title fees.

    After about 20 minutes, as expected, he returned with the manager. He introduced himself and asked if I knew what the invoice price of the car was. I responded $22,418, but Edmunds Tru-value price was $21,523. I told him I knew the 2015's were due out with a complete re-styling in a few weeks and that we were buying a car that would be worth thousands less because of the new model.

    He asked if we would consider a red sedan, and I then said, in front of the manager, that we were on our way to an AutoNation dealership where I knew I could get my price. He relented and gave us the deal I proposed - $20,000 including fees +tax +tags + title. He drove his car home with me following in my car. Luckily he had no trade as he was selling his old car to one of the guys in the building next to ours.

    I am sure he still made a few bucks because there are some great incentives available to the dealer to reduce their 2014 inventories.

    The Edmunds Tru-Market Value pricing is a good start, but there are better deals out there if you know how to negotiate.

    Now, one of my Dad's old golfing buddies wants me to help him buy a new Sonata. I figure what the heck - I have nothing else to do with my time and Dad appreciated my consenting to help one of his old cronies.

    2018 Mercedes S450

  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 20,225

    @snakeweasel said:

    Heck yes it can be too hot to have the top down!

    It can be bad enough around here where 80 degrees is a heat wave but try driving top down in Phoenix in August! You won't have that top down for long!

    I like the mornings and late afternoons the best but not when the sun is beating down on my head!

  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 20,225

    @abacomike said:
    "SALES EXPERIENCE"

    My downstairs neighbor went to the Toyota Dealership yesterday and called me this morning to ask if I could get him a good deal on a new Camry. I agreed to accompany him back at noon this afternoon.

    We met the salesman who worked with him yesterday at 12:15 PM this afternoon. The car he was looking at was a 2014 Camry LE 4 cyl base car with cloth interior. MSRP was $24,523 and the Edmunds Tru-Value price $21,523.

    He wanted a better deal than the Tru-Value price. The dealer had offered to sell the car for $22,125 + dealer fees of $599. I showed him my old business card and told him we would buy the car right now for $20,000 including dealer fees + tax, tags and title fees.

    After about 20 minutes, as expected, he returned with the manager. He introduced himself and asked if I knew what the invoice price of the car was. I responded $22,418, but Edmunds Tru-value price was $21,523. I told him I knew the 2015's were due out with a complete re-styling in a few weeks and that we were buying a car that would be worth thousands less because of the new model.

    He asked if we would consider a red sedan, and I then said, in front of the manager, that we were on our way to an AutoNation dealership where I knew I could get my price. He relented and gave us the deal I proposed - $20,000 including fees +tax +tags + title. He drove his car home with me following in my car. Luckily he had no trade as he was selling his old car to one of the guys in the building next to ours.

    I am sure he still made a few bucks because there are some great incentives available to the dealer to reduce their 2014 inventories.

    The Edmunds Tru-Market Value pricing is a good start, but there are better deals out there if you know how to negotiate.

    Now, one of my Dad's old golfing buddies wants me to help him buy a new Sonata. I figure what the heck - I have nothing else to do with my time and Dad appreciated my consenting to help one of his old cronies.

    Wow, there must be a HUGE gap between invoice and MSRP on Toyotas or a ton of trunk money! Hondas never had that kind of room!

    It's funny. People SAY they don't want to dicker that they just want a great price so they go through Costco, Autobytel, Tru-Value and the many others that have come and gone.

    So, we comply with their wishes. " Here is the MSRP, here is our invoice and here is your Costco price" I can count the times on three fingers when they would say " Wow, that's a great stress free way to buy a car...I'll take it, Craig"

    Nope, instead I would hear.." That sounds high...can't you do better" At that point I was in dangerous territory. I had given them a price to go shop all over the state.

    Instead, I would say " If you have another number in mind and are committed to buy the car and drive it home today, I'll write that number down and run it by my boss"

    If they wouldn't do that I would say.." According to Costco's rules that number is the MOST I can charge you...if you plan to shop my number at least give me the chance to respond...I'm not going to lose your business over a few dollars"

    " I'll be back"

    " Don't count the BE-Backs, count the Greenbacks"!

  • ab348ab348 Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CanadaPosts: 11,774
    edited June 2014

    @abacomike said:
    We met the salesman who worked with him yesterday at 12:15 PM this afternoon. The car he was looking at was a 2014 Camry LE 4 cyl base car with cloth interior.

    The question is: WHY? :)

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6, 1968 Oldsmobile Cutlass S Holiday Coupe

  • abacomikeabacomike South FloridaPosts: 10,686
    @ab348 said:

    "The question is: WHY?"

    WHY WHAT??????

    I have no idea what you are trying to communicate!!!!!!!

    2018 Mercedes S450

  • abacomikeabacomike South FloridaPosts: 10,686
    @ isellhondas said:

    "Wow, there must be a HUGE gap between invoice and MSRP on Toyotas or a ton of trunk money! Hondas never had that kind of room!"

    It's manufacturer to dealer incentives. If you look again at my post, there isn't much room between MSRP and invoice. The major money is from the manufacturer. I believe he had to give up some hold back to make that deal. They had over 75 Camry's on the lot, but not many stripped down to bare bones like the one he bought. Even with all the rain we had this afternoon, the showroom was extremely busy.

    2018 Mercedes S450

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 24,096

    @isellhondas said:
    Wow, there must be a HUGE gap between invoice and MSRP on Toyotas or a ton of trunk money! Hondas never had that kind of room!

    Edmunds shows $1000 to customer if they don't take any reduced rate financing.
    So there must be quite a bit of hidden factory to dealer money as the end of the model
    year approaches.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • ab348ab348 Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CanadaPosts: 11,774

    @abacomike said:
    WHY WHAT??????

    I have no idea what you are trying to communicate!!!!!!!

    Why is he buying the stripper base Camry?

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6, 1968 Oldsmobile Cutlass S Holiday Coupe

  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Posts: 14,139
    edited June 2014

    Local screamer dealer is offering $4000 off on all 2014 VW GTIs. Is that good?

    Not a VW guy but that sounds like a lot.

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2004 Chevy Van, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Posts: 14,139

    @imidazol97 said:

    I like the part where it says: "notify me when people write on my wall"

    I'd like the police notified. ;)

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2004 Chevy Van, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • abacomikeabacomike South FloridaPosts: 10,686
    edited June 2014
    @ab348 said:

    "Why is he buying the stripper base Camry?"

    I wish you had asked that same question the first time you posted. I understand what "WHY" means now.

    He uses the car for local shopping and errands only - doesn't go on the highway at all. They have always had bare bones Toyota Camry's and he keeps them for 5+ years. The one he sold to the guy in the next building was a base 2008 Camry with 17,000 miles on it. The guy gave him $9500 for it. It didn't have a ding or dent on it and was a tan with tan cloth interior.

    The people who live here, for the most part, are in their mid 80's and have limits to their reflexes and sight. He doesn't want or need anything fancy.

    2018 Mercedes S450

  • stickguystickguy Posts: 35,151

    a base stirippo tan Camry is the perfect old persons car. heck, they all get driven that way anyway.

    There are some serious deals on those I see advertised, so I can believe that deal. If my daughter actually needed a car to take (far) away to college in a few months, a cheap lease on one of those would probably be the winner (or an Altima).

    2019 Acura TLX A-spec 4 cyl. (mine), and 2013 Acura RDX AWD (wife's)

  • stickguystickguy Posts: 35,151

    @oldfarmer50 said:
    Local screamer dealer is offering $4000 off on all 2014 VW GTIs. Is that good?

    Not a VW guy but that sounds like a lot.

    Would not be surprised. The 2015s are on the ground (I saw 2 of them Thursday at the dealer, and they are very nice, and IMO a big improvement), so the 14's are day old bread at this point. Still, they don't tend to have that many in stock, so a bit surprising they are knocking off that much (unless of course they are working off a dealer addendum sticker to cook the books).

    I should probably add VW dealers to the list of places I better stay away from.

    2019 Acura TLX A-spec 4 cyl. (mine), and 2013 Acura RDX AWD (wife's)

  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    edited June 2014

    @imidazol97 said:
    So there must be quite a bit of hidden factory to dealer money as the end of the model year approaches.

    Invoice pricing doesn't mean what it used to.

    "Automakers have fattened dealers' "invoice" or wholesale price so it looks as if they're paying a lot more than they used to — perhaps 95% of the retail sticker price, vs. 85% before Internet car shopping began in the mid-1990s."

    Surprising tips for car shopping in Internet age (USA Today)

  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Posts: 14,139

    "The one he sold to the guy in the next building was a base 2008 Camry with 17,000 miles on it. The guy gave him $9500 for it."

    That guy standing outside your gate waiting for the next 80 year old to sell at 17,000 miles is me. :D

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2004 Chevy Van, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • abacomikeabacomike South FloridaPosts: 10,686
    @oldfarmer said:

    "That guy standing outside your gate waiting for the next 80 year old to sell at 17,000 miles is me. "

    I'll post your interest on the bulletin boards. What usually happens here is the children of those 80+ year olds sell the car the day after their father's funeral - I kid you not!

    2018 Mercedes S450

  • sterlingdogsterlingdog North CarolinaPosts: 6,984

    @abacomike said:
    oldfarmer said:

    "That guy standing outside your gate waiting for the next 80 year old to sell at 17,000 miles is me. "

    I'll post your interest on the bulletin boards. What usually happens here is the children of those 80+ year olds sell the car the day after their father's funeral - I kid you not!

    Mike, you are so right. One of my wife's friends died last year. A week later, her two children had sold both cars and the house was completely empty with a "For Sale" sign out front. I couldn't work that fast if I did it to myself!

    BTW, you are so nice to help the elderly in your community to buy their new cars. I'm sure that they appreciate it very much. I need you here with me because I'm out and about on the lots now. Plan to purchase within the next 30 days. As usual, I'm trying to use all of the lessons that I have learned on this site over the years.

    Richard

  • stickguystickguy Posts: 35,151

    so Richard, what are the prime contenders at this point?

    and I enjoyed watching the Open last week and seeing shots of Pinehurst. Looked like a beautiful town. But probably horrible to be there during a major tournament.

    2019 Acura TLX A-spec 4 cyl. (mine), and 2013 Acura RDX AWD (wife's)

  • bwiabwia Boston Posts: 2,406

    @stever said:
    "Automakers have fattened dealers' "invoice" or wholesale price so it looks as if they're paying a lot more than they used to — perhaps 95% of the retail sticker price, vs. 85% before Internet car shopping began in the mid-1990s."

    Surprising tips for car shopping in Internet age (USA Today)

    That's what I have been saying all along, that so-called "invoice" price is as phony as a three dollar bill. How can a company sell a product with a 5% or 15% gross margin and expect to survive? It cannot be done.

    The historical average gross margin for all American companies is about 40%, so what makes auto dealerships any different? A good example of that is to look at how the auto dealer service department price their services.

    The labor rate includes a base price plus a built in profit margin as well as an additional amount to cover overhead. The same formula is used for parts. The mark-up on parts includes an amount to cover both overhead and a built in profit margin.

    By extension, if we apply this pricing formula to the sale of the car itself we can see that invoice is quite meaningless. Even the so-called experts, according to USA Today, said they didn't know what invoice is/was, yet they continue to publish this dribble.

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 24,096
    edited June 2014

    @bwia said:
    By extension, if we apply this pricing formula to the sale of the car itself we can see that invoice is quite meaningless. Even the so-called experts, according to USA Today, said they didn't know what invoice is/was, yet they continue to publish this dribble.

    What has occurred is that the companies have insulated themselves from transparency in the pricing. They reacted to the publication of their invoice price and the other cost factors by developing other systems which the public has no ability to collect information about. Lack of transparency. And they have good lobby systems. Here in Ohio, the law is written that allows dealers to collect a document fee, up to $250, on time contracts (loans). However, the dealers use that as a mandatory doc fee always at the maxiumum. They already have it printed on their contract. So someone paying cash doesn't need to pay any of it. But they get irritable when someone points out that deficiency and they start babbling about how they could be sued if they charge someone a different fee than someone else is charged. But that fee puts them in charge and mandates the buyer's having to work down from that rather than the dealer having work up to gleen that extra profit.

    Here in Ohio, the dealers are even trying to block Tesla from using storefronts to sell rather than dealership buildings. Can't have cars being sold through stores like Walmart or CVS, can we. Tesla has 3 stores IIRC. I can just see all the lobby money going to the legislators. My state representative will not respond to questions about the document fee and the Tesla sales model and the dealer lobbying. Almost like the IRS.

    No wonder the stores can sell at invoice or below and build the new shiny showrooms they have and all the highly paid suits walking around while sales bots work their butts off. The GM stores have been improving their stores for 5 years or more, replacing or remodeling to get to white tile on the floor and a clean appearance.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • stickguystickguy Posts: 35,151

    well, look at it the other way, no other industry even publishes the dribble. so take what you can get! But since it is common knowledge that the published #s are more of a "show me" trick, just shop for the lowest actual price (which is the bottom line that matters). what the manufacturer is doing behind the scenes to support the dealer (keep the metal moving) is up to them.

    supply/demand and competition is still the driving force behind pricing.

    also, we always hear that new car sales is somewhat of a loss leader to get you into the dealership. Other stuff (used cars, parts, service, F&I) is where the real money is made, and you need the new car sales to front for all that.

    2019 Acura TLX A-spec 4 cyl. (mine), and 2013 Acura RDX AWD (wife's)

  • abacomikeabacomike South FloridaPosts: 10,686
    @bwia said:

    "Even the so-called experts, according to USA Today, said they didn't know what invoice is/was, yet they continue to publish this dribble."

    There is a difference between dealer invoice and factory invoice. Dealer invoice is what the dealer pays the manufacturer for a vehicle delivered to his place of business for sale. Factory invoice does not include holdback or credits for incentives and other trunk money available to the dealer. So the invoice numbers shown on Edmunds is really factory invoice.

    Dealers sell cars to their employees and some customers who are favored at what is called "triple net"! That is final dealer invoice after all incentives, holdback, trunk money, etc.

    I believe that listing invoice is essential in order for consumers to have a place to develop negotiating strategies. Without that, where does one start? Do you take MSRP and subtract 8%, 9%, 10%? It would be a complete guessing game with no idea of what a car could be purchased for.

    With an invoice price and some knowledge from Edmunds of incentives or what others are paying, you can develop a negotiating strategy. Otherwise you could go from dealer to dealer like in the old days and never have any idea what to negotiate from.

    Something is better than nothing, right?

    2018 Mercedes S450

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 24,096
    edited June 2014

    @abacomike said:
    There is a difference between dealer invoice and factory invoice. Dealer invoice is what the dealer pays the manufacturer for a vehicle delivered to his place of business for sale. Factory invoice does not include holdback or credits for incentives and other trunk money available to the dealer. So the invoice numbers shown on Edmunds is really factory invoice.

    Do I interpret correctly what you've said to be that dealer invoice is a higher number because it includes money that eventually may be paid back to the dealer, holdback, trunk money, dealer incentives?

    The factory invoice number is a lower value where all the holdback and other incentives to be paid to dealer have been subtracted?

    And the Edmunds number is really the lower of these two?

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Posts: 14,139

    @abacomike said:
    oldfarmer said:

    "That guy standing outside your gate waiting for the next 80 year old to sell at 17,000 miles is me. "

    I'll post your interest on the bulletin boards. What usually happens here is the children of those 80+ year olds sell the car the day after their father's funeral - I kid you not!

    That's one of the reasons I'd like to live in Florida. So many pristine low milage cars that received easy use.

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2004 Chevy Van, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Posts: 14,139
    edited June 2014

    "...Mike, you are so right. One of my wife's friends died last year. A week later, her two children had sold both cars and the house was completely empty with a "For Sale" sign out front. I couldn't work that fast if I did it to myself!..."

    When my mother died it took me two months to get her apartment emptied out...and she didn't have a car. They must have taken a beating on the sale price of the cars to move them so quick. How would you get the title switched that fast? I wonder if they just went to a dealer and took the first offer.

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2004 Chevy Van, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    edited June 2014

    My MIL died a few months back and the estate is moving slowly. But there is a line of buyers for her '03 Buick. The executor may have to go the sealed bid route to avoid making half the town mad (it's a small town).

    I'm not even sure the dealer owner knows the cost of a particular car until the books get closed at the end of the month or quarter. But having "invoice" price at least gives you a starting place to begin negotiations - $1,000 off invoice makes more sense to me than saying you want $3,000 off MSRP.

    We're negotiating house buying right now and we're not head over heels in love with any house and there's no hurry moving, so we're in the driver's seat a little bit. But one seller is a bank with little interest in compromising and the other seller is our age and doesn't care if we buy his house or not. I think that means someone else is going to overpay, but I've overpaid before for the "right" house. Over time, it's really not about the money.

  • ab348ab348 Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CanadaPosts: 11,774

    @stever said:
    We're negotiating house buying right now and we're not head over heels in love with any house and there's no hurry moving, so we're in the driver's seat a little bit. But one seller is a bank with little interest in compromising and the other seller is our age and doesn't care if we buy his house or not. I think that means someone else is going to overpay, but I've overpaid before for the "right" house. Over time, it's really not about the money.

    I thought banks didn't like having houses on their books and preferred to have cash? I would have thought they would be eager to compromise.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6, 1968 Oldsmobile Cutlass S Holiday Coupe

  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 20,225

    If a person buys a house or a car for that matter and is happy with the transaction,, they didn't "overpay".

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 24,096

    @stever said:

    But there is a line of buyers for her '03 Buick. The executor may have to go the sealed bid route to avoid making half the town mad (it's a small town).

    I can see why they'd want to get a good deal on a 2003 Buick. Mine has been good.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    edited June 2014

    @ab348, you'd think so wouldn't you? But you're dealing with a "bureaucracy" not a motivated seller. They countered and we've had longer buyer's remorse than usual, so we're going to keep looking.

    @isellhondas, exactly. We begged our landlady to sell for six months, and paid $5,000 over appraisal in '84 on a modest home in Anchorage (great neighborhood though), and financed it at 13%. We were underwater for 7 seven out of the 15 years we lived there and we broke even when we moved. It was perfect for us at that time in in our life and we never lost a bit of sleep over owning it.

  • mako1amako1a VirginiaPosts: 1,855

    @isellhondas said:
    If a person buys a house or a car for that matter and is happy with the transaction,, they didn't "overpay".

    It's not the amount they paid that makes a buyer happy...It's knowing he got it for 1 dollar less than the last guy.

    2013 Mustang GT, 2001 GMC Yukon Denali

  • graphicguygraphicguy Edmunds Poster EmeritusPosts: 11,789
    edited June 2014

    @imidazol97 said:
    What has occurred is that the companies have insulated themselves from transparency in the pricing. They reacted to the publication of their invoice price and the other cost factors by developing other systems which the public has no ability to collect information about. Lack of transparency. And they have good lobby systems. Here in Ohio, the law is written that allows dealers to collect a document fee, up to $250, on time contracts (loans). However, the dealers use that as a mandatory doc fee always at the maxiumum. They already have it printed on their contract. So someone paying cash doesn't need to pay any of it. But they get irritable when someone points out that deficiency and they start babbling about how they could be sued if they charge someone a different fee than someone else is charged. But that fee puts them in charge and mandates the buyer's having to work down from that rather than the dealer having work up to gleen that extra profit.

    Here in Ohio, the dealers are even trying to block Tesla from using storefronts to sell rather than dealership buildings. Can't have cars being sold through stores like Walmart or CVS, can we. Tesla has 3 stores IIRC. I can just see all the lobby money going to the legislators. My state representative will not respond to questions about the document fee and the Tesla sales model and the dealer lobbying. Almost like the IRS.
    No wonder the stores can sell at invoice or below and build the new shiny they have and all the highly paid suits walking around while sales bots work their butts off. The GM stores have been improving their stores for 5 years or more, replacing or remodeling to get to white tile on the floor and a clean appearance.

    Imid....well put. I don't force any dealer to sell to me without a doc fee, as the last few cars I've purchased have been cash transactions. Of course, they eventually drop the fees when I don't include them in my offers, but not before some level of histrionics posed by the dealers.

    Most dealers will go below invoice with little prodding. That tells us all we need to know about "unknown trunk money" being prevalent in most new car transactions.

    2018 Acura TLX 3.5 SH AWD A-SPEC
  • sterlingdogsterlingdog North CarolinaPosts: 6,984

    @oldfarmer50 said:
    "...Mike, you are so right. One of my wife's friends died last year. A week later, her two children had sold both cars and the house was completely empty with a "For Sale" sign out front. I couldn't work that fast if I did it to myself!..."

    When my mother died it took me two months to get her apartment emptied out...and she didn't have a car. They must have taken a beating on the sale price of the cars to move them so quick. How would you get the title switched that fast? I wonder if they just went to a dealer and took the first offer.

    As we were told, the funeral was on Sunday with an estate sale set for the next Saturday which included the MB and the Accord. At the end of the day all had disappeared. The house itself is in a court battle. The house was left to the Statue of Liberty Foundation. The two children contested, so the house just sits there. Personally, I hope the Foundation wins the case. Those two children are what I would refer to as "Pluckers of Pockets" and "Pursuers of the Purses". I'm being nice because we are on a family channel here.

    Richard

  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 20,225

    Why should car dealers be "transparent"?

    Why should car buyers know exactly what a dealer paid for a car?

    If you buy a new camera, jewelry or construction material, you don't know this nor should you.

    When I buy something I don't care what the store paid for it. I only care if that item represents what I think is value for my dollars spent.

    Car dealers are fed up with Invoice Buyers and it sounds like the manufactures are finding ways to build some back door profit into the cars they are building.

    Good for them! A merchant HAS to make a profit in order to pay overhead and stay in business.

  • sterlingdogsterlingdog North CarolinaPosts: 6,984

    @stickguy said:
    so Richard, what are the prime contenders at this point?

    and I enjoyed watching the Open last week and seeing shots of Pinehurst. Looked like a beautiful town. But probably horrible to be there during a major tournament.

    You watched the Open and you didn't see me? ;) We had tickets for one day so we drove over. We saw the first hole in person, watched the remainder on the clubhouse TV with food and drink, and then went outside the back door to watch the 18th hole in person. It's the lazy man's way, but my wife and I can't take that heat and humidity now that we are older. Believe me, you don't want to live there during an Open. We lived in Pinehurst during the last Open and it was the nightmare from hell. No way we could eat in a restaurant or get into a grocery store for two weeks. They even closed the road to our housing development and routed us out the rear entrance which meant driving five miles out of the way to get back where you intended to go. Some people rent their homes to news crews for $10,000 a week and go on vacation until the Open has ended. There is a downside to that: You often come home to a trashed house and have to file an insurance claim for damage repairs. Those news guys WILL throw a party or two. We got a couple of offers because our house was one mile from the airport. We had formed a pact with our neighbors----no takers in our neighborhood.

    Prime contenders at this point? Ford F150 Crew Cab XLT, Chevy 1500 Silverado, Honda Pilot, Jeep Grand Cherokee, and Caddy CTS. Wife has relented on the pick up truck which thrills me to no end. I've wanted a truck for years. Color choices for the trucks are Ruby Red Metallic or Oxford White. Interior colors---cocoa tan or alabaster gray. It's fun looking right now. Will keep you posted.

    Richard

  • abacomikeabacomike South FloridaPosts: 10,686
    @imidazol97‌ said:

    "The factory invoice number is a lower value where all the holdback and other incentives to be paid to dealer have been subtracted?"

    If memory serves me correctly, the numbers Edmunds shows as invoice for a vehicle is not the "net/net/net" invoice of the car. It does not show incentives, etc.

    Edmunds shows the invoice without any trunk money, available coupons, incentives, etc. But it is a good place to start. Use that figure and subtract dealer incentives and customer cash back.

    2018 Mercedes S450

  • abacomikeabacomike South FloridaPosts: 10,686
    @isellhondas said:

    "Why should car dealers be "transparent"?
    Why should car buyers know exactly what a dealer paid for a car?"

    I am not in disagreement with your position, isell! Bloomingdales, Macy's, Boeing, Walmart, etc., do not share that information so why should auto dealers?

    It is up to the buyer to research pricing in any way he can. Edmunds is just one source. What's fair in love and war? Everything and anything goes, in my opinion.

    It is the buyer's responsibility to learn as much as he can about vehicle pricing. But it is not the responsibility of the dealership to share net/net/net cost of a car. As long as there are sources to gather most of that information, the buyer is not as defenseless as he used to be 20 years ago.

    2018 Mercedes S450

  • ab348ab348 Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CanadaPosts: 11,774

    @sterlingdog said:
    Prime contenders at this point? Ford F150 Crew Cab XLT, Chevy 1500 Silverado, Honda Pilot, Jeep Grand Cherokee, and Caddy CTS. Wife has relented on the pick up truck which thrills me to no end. I've wanted a truck for years. Color choices for the trucks are Ruby Red Metallic or Oxford White. Interior colors---cocoa tan or alabaster gray. It's fun looking right now. Will keep you posted.

    The new Silverado is nice but I like the GMC Sierra even better.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6, 1968 Oldsmobile Cutlass S Holiday Coupe

  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 20,225

    @abacomike said:
    isellhondas said:

    "Why should car dealers be "transparent"?
    Why should car buyers know exactly what a dealer paid for a car?"

    I am not in disagreement with your position, isell! Bloomingdales, Macy's, Boeing, Walmart, etc., do not share that information so why should auto dealers?

    It is up to the buyer to research pricing in any way he can. Edmunds is just one source. What's fair in love and war? Everything and anything goes, in my opinion.

    It is the buyer's responsibility to learn as much as he can about vehicle pricing. But it is not the responsibility of the dealership to share net/net/net cost of a car. As long as there are sources to gather most of that information, the buyer is not as defenseless as he used to be 20 years ago.

    Well stated.

    I used to love it when a used car buyer would get so frustrated when they knew they had no idea what we had paid for the car they were looking at.

    Some people just couldn't bear the thought that we might be making more profit then they thought was "fair". Fair to some people meant a 200.00 profit on a 20,000 car.

  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Posts: 14,139

    "...Why should car buyers know exactly what a dealer paid for a car?

    If you buy a new camera, jewelry or construction material, you don't know this nor should you."

    Well, maybe because you're spending $30-$40 thousand instead of $3-$4 hundred.

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2004 Chevy Van, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • mako1amako1a VirginiaPosts: 1,855

    Ford F150 Crew Cab XLT. Richard, all of your choices have merit. I have done a lot of research on the F-150 in all of it's levels. XL and XLT are base levels. Lariat is when they get a lot of goodies. Then once you drive a Platinum you won't want to see another XLT. Limited is over the top. Platinum has the retractable step which I found to be perfect. Also the 2015s are supposed to be all aluminum. No rust ever and 400 pounds lighter. The ecoboost engine has only been out since 2011 and I've heard nothing but good about it except it costs abut $4k more. I like the tried and true 302 engine (5.0 litre).

    2013 Mustang GT, 2001 GMC Yukon Denali

  • driver100driver100 Burlington, ON 7 mo/Tampa FL 5 moPosts: 25,905

    4 hour ferrie ride from Wales to Ireland.
    Saw the best car name yet........I saw a VW UP! Even has the exclamation point in the name.
    The Galaxy 10 is useless for this...I can't copy and paste.
    Also touchscreen is going to make me insane.
    Trying to get on Google or anything is next to impossible.
    Writing emails on Gmail could also be very frustrating.
    Since the site has a new name I think you guys are trying to set a new record by matching Sales Frontlines.

    Now in Dublin Ireland.....headed for Belfast. Hip hip Cheerio and all that.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

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