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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    I have a lot of respect for the effort it takes to bring a person to that skill level of craftsmanship. I remember (true story I swear) when I worked for the Mercedes organization in New Jersey, one of the higher ups from Germany saw a technician at the training school put his foot up on the bumper of an exclusive Mercedes 500 limo (also pretty much a hand-built car) while chatting with another tech. He was given his pink slip because the press was there to observe the car. His bad luck that he did that in front of the most formidable executive from the Hone Office.

    I like to drive fast and get a bit frisky when it's safe to do so, but I would never abuse a car like they do on Top Gear. I know, I know, the counter-argument is: "I bought it and I can do whatever I want to it".

    Call it a pet peeve. Some of these cars are like rolling jewels.
  • abacomikeabacomike South FloridaPosts: 10,408
    I have a lot of respect for the effort it takes to bring a person to that skill level of craftsmanship. I remember (true story I swear) when I worked for the Mercedes organization in New Jersey, one of the higher ups from Germany saw a technician at the training school put his foot up on the bumper of an exclusive Mercedes 500 limo (also pretty much a hand-built car) while chatting with another tech. He was given his pink slip because the press was there to observe the car. His bad luck that he did that in front of the most formidable executive from the Hone Office. I like to drive fast and get a bit frisky when it's safe to do so, but I would never abuse a car like they do on Top Gear. I know, I know, the counter-argument is: "I bought it and I can do whatever I want to it". Call it a pet peeve. Some of these cars are like rolling jewels.
    They are "not" like rolling jewels - THEY "ARE" ROLLING JEWELS!  Worth their weight in beautifully cut diamonds, at the very least.

    2018 Mercedes S450

  • driver100driver100 Burlington, ON 7 mo/Tampa FL 5 moPosts: 24,630
    edited May 2015
    ab348 said:

    Michaell said:


    That's your opinion. Obviously, the person who flagged the post had their opinion - and it was different.

    We've had these difference of opinions before, and we've all survived. Perhaps we need to do that here.


    A couple of points:

    Flagging a post takes a couple of distinct keystrokes, the first to flag it, then to indicate whether it is being flagged for spam or abuse. So I doubt it happened accidentally.

    Second point: Mike's post was flagged as "abuse". I take abuse to mean someone calling someone names, posting porn, whatever. I don't think what Mike posted falls into that category. It seems unfair to him for that to stand.
    One question ab...., if you don't mind me asking, how do you know so much about "flaging"? B)

    (just joking)

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • driver100driver100 Burlington, ON 7 mo/Tampa FL 5 moPosts: 24,630
    fezo said:

    Driver - I can figure these things out. I've had long experience with insanely reliable and cheap used cars. In my overall experience they actually have been more reliable than the new ones which is admittedly unusual.


    If I think I can realistically pull off a 3 or Imprezza without burying us I'll likely do that.

    Fezo, I do not doubt at all you have had reliable used cars. I have had a few good ones in my time too, probably 60% of my used cars were good ones....but, the bad were really bad. It just isn't worth it to me to take the chance of getting a clunker. If you buy a lemon and you have to dump it within a year you lose more than the new car would have cost in the first place.

    I didn't want you to calculate the cost to help you decide....I wanted to test my theory, that a new car doesn't cost much more than a used car.

    I do think, a 1 or 2 year old used car with a good warranty and a bit of luck, will be the best value overall. And, there are times when it is best to buy a used car and not stretch the budget, some things are more important than driving a new car.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • abacomikeabacomike South FloridaPosts: 10,408
    What are the reasons a vehicle is put up for sale by a private party or traded to a dealer?

    One reason is that the vehicle is having some mechanical or technical problems.  

    Another reason is that the owner of the used car is a chronic car buyer and the used car is a perfect vehicle in every way.

    A further reason might be that the family is growing and they need a more practical mode of transportation.

    Still another her reason might be that the family has two or three cars and need to downsize the fleet by selling one or more of their vehicles.

    In all except for one reason, one would expect the used vehicle to be in pretty good shape especially if sold by Carmax or off a dealer's pre-owned lot where an inspection is completed and the vehicle is brought up to an acceptable standard by adding new brakes, tires, etc.

    But in the case of a private party selling a used car due to problems with the vehicle is where the buyer must beware.  Here is where a close inspection and assessment of the vehicle should be undertaken by a good mechanic. 

    So, driver, in most cases, a 2-4 year old car or SUV should be a good vehicle with many more years of trouble free use by the new owner.

    This is why the value of later model used cars has risen substantially over the past few years.

    I have to believe that it is more economical to buy a late model used car than purchase a new car.  During the first year of ownership of a new car depreciates the vehicle by 20%.  The second year 15% more.  And the third and fourth years by 10% each year.  So by purchasing a 3 year old car, you have eliminated a depreciation of 45% of it's original cost.

    People buy new cars for many reasons, but to me, the purchase of a preferred pre-owned car that is 3 years old with under 30,000 miles is the "thinking man's" best bet.

    2018 Mercedes S450

  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    edited May 2015
    Friend of mine recently got an '03 F-150 here (with some help from @Mr_Shiftright). Owner said he and wife had to get SUVs because they decided to have a couple of kids. One of his newer vehicles was a Rogue and the other was another SUV, so that was a believable reason. My friend had the truck checked out, bought it, and got about $1000 worth of work done on it (fluids, transfer case service, pitman arm, electric trailer brake controller, brake light).

    While driving it on the gravel road to my house, the knob that switches the 4WD to 2WD fell off in his hand as he was messing with the switch. That was good - the light in the knob was intermittent and the mechanic couldn't diagnose any issue with the 4wd. He can change the 4WD to 2WD and back with the switch shaft until he can find another knob ($21 at a dealer :'( ).

    The rear window adhesive is separating at the bottom of the passenger side glass. The best fix is to remove the headliner and seat to get to it from the inside - he's going to diy and skip the headliner removal. Otherwise there's some trashed paint from sun damage and the headlight lenses are foggy. Not much road rash.

    He's into it about $5,500 so far, made it home to TX with no issues, and hopes to drive it to Alaska and flip it by the end of the month. Really curious to see if he'll manage to get there with no issues and then break even.

    Our TCO tool will dial in the deprecation (and looks to match your percentages), and you can use it to compare, say, insurance costs for a new car versus a used one.
  • verdugoverdugo Posts: 2,282
    edited May 2015
    Michaell said:

    verdugo said:

    abacomike said:

    I guess someone flagged me for abuse on my previous post.  I hate cowards who flag anonymously.  Bye all, it's been nice knowing all of you!

    Your post was gone by the time I logged in. What was it about?

    Never mind. I read your follow up comment. I don't think you said anything that could offend somebody. If they don't agree, that's fine, but they shouldn't get "offended."
    That's your opinion. Obviously, the person who flagged the post had their opinion - and it was different.

    We've had these difference of opinions before, and we've all survived. Perhaps we need to do that here.
    Hi Mike,

    I'm able to disagree with your post without flagging it as offensive/spam/etc. :) (disclaimer, I didn't read Mike's post, but I believe him based on his time here that he didn't say anything offensive.)

    I'm totally ok with difference of opinions. However, going from not agreeing that companies hoarding cash overseas is wrong to flagging that comment is a big leap. Assuming the flagging wasn't a mistake, the person who reported it should have either ignored the post or post a reply disagreeing with Mike,

    At least something good came out of this, Mike knows that we appreciate his posts and that he should stick around.
  • driver100driver100 Burlington, ON 7 mo/Tampa FL 5 moPosts: 24,630
    abacomike said:

     During the first year of ownership of a new car depreciates the vehicle by 20%.  The second year 15% more.  And the third and fourth years by 10% each year.  So by purchasing a 3 year old car, you have eliminated a depreciation of 45% of it's original cost.

    People buy new cars for many reasons, but to me, the purchase of a preferred pre-owned car that is 3 years old with under 30,000 miles is the "thinking man's" best bet.

    No flags there....I agree completely. The A4 was 3 years old, it had 18k miles on it, fits the pre-owned sweet spot.................hope it won't need another $2300 clutch job!

    I read depreciation was 20% in years 1 and 2, and 15% every year after.

    1,2, or 3 year old pre-owned is best value....but, buying new will cost more but better chance of nothing going too wrong.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • ab348ab348 Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CanadaPosts: 10,650
    driver100 said:


    One question ab...., if you don't mind me asking, how do you know so much about "flaging"? B)

    (just joking)


    I looked at Mike's post in question. It showed a "1" next to the Flag icon along with a "3" next to the Like icon. I clicked on the 3 and it showed me the names of the 3 people who liked it. I clicked on the 1 next to "Flag" thinking I would see who did that but it didn't show me a name. Instead it gave me choices for "Abuse" or "Spam". Hence, my conclusion.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6, 1968 Oldsmobile Cutlass S Holiday Coupe

  • ab348ab348 Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CanadaPosts: 10,650

    It's interesting you bring up the idea of some craftsman spending countless hours to build a special car. Whenever I see one of these crashed on YouTube it kind of makes me ill to realize all the human effort that was wiped out by some celebrity. I would practically bow down to an engine that takes 3 weeks to build.

    I don't have the same view on these. I figure anyone who can afford something like a Bugatti is probably an overpaid celebrity who has no appreciation at all for the value of things. They may have come from nothing but winning a lottery of sorts does not make you an aficionado or a connoisseur. So I figure the people that make them probably know this from the start, that their market isn't anything other than people with too much money, not people who will appreciate their craftsmanship. It is like a fashion designer who makes a $100,000 dress for Lady GaGa or the like. If she burns a hole in it, so what? Their pockets are deep and they will replace it. They don't care about the item - they only care about owning expensive things.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6, 1968 Oldsmobile Cutlass S Holiday Coupe

  • driver100driver100 Burlington, ON 7 mo/Tampa FL 5 moPosts: 24,630
    ab348 said:

    driver100 said:


    One question ab...., if you don't mind me asking, how do you know so much about "flaging"? B)

    (just joking)


    I looked at Mike's post in question. It showed a "1" next to the Flag icon along with a "3" next to the Like icon. I clicked on the 3 and it showed me the names of the 3 people who liked it. I clicked on the 1 next to "Flag" thinking I would see who did that but it didn't show me a name. Instead it gave me choices for "Abuse" or "Spam". Hence, my conclusion.
    Ah, good deductive thinking. It would be nice if the flagger came forward. It would also be good if our kind hosts would remove this from Mike's file. A flag should require a note of explanation, and it should be a very good one!

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • abacomikeabacomike South FloridaPosts: 10,408
    ab348 said:

    "They don't care about the item - they only care about owning expensive things."

    I think you have a point, "ab"!  People or celebrities or very wealthy individuals who have so much money it would take 50 lifetimes to spend it all have no sense of "value" because if "it" breaks or crashes, they just replace it without any hesitation.  I know from experience that this is fact within my own family.

    If I spent my inheritance on a Rolls Royce Ghost (as you know, my dream car), I would have to live in it, making pit stops at the local gasoline station to wash up and do my duty, so to speak.  I'd buy several "MY PILLOWS" at half price (as the owner of the "My Pillow" company advertises) and use my "Shriner's Children's Love Blanket" for warmth when the engine was off.  I'd go to drive-in fast food restaurants for nourishment - probably McDonalds because Chick-Fil-A would be too expensive.  I'd have to apply for welfare or some other gov't sponsored program like food stamps since I would be flat broke after paying for my Rolls.  But at least I'd have a place to sleep! :open_mouth: 

    All kidding aside, I agree with you that people who buy a Bugatti are people who "want" what most others "can't have/afford"!

    2018 Mercedes S450

  • driver100driver100 Burlington, ON 7 mo/Tampa FL 5 moPosts: 24,630
    abacomike said:

    ab348 said:

    "They don't care about the item - they only care about owning expensive things."

    I think you have a point, "ab"!  People or celebrities or very wealthy individuals who have so much money it would take 50 lifetimes to spend it all have no sense of "value" because if "it" breaks or crashes, they just replace it without any hesitation.  I know from experience that this is fact within my own family.

    If I spent my inheritance on a Rolls Royce Ghost (as you know, my dream car), I would have to live in it, making pit stops at the local gasoline station to wash up and do my duty, so to speak.  I'd buy several "MY PILLOWS" at half price (as the owner of the "My Pillow" company advertises) and use my "Shriner's Children's Love Blanket" for warmth when the engine was off.  I'd go to drive-in fast food restaurants for nourishment - probably McDonalds because Chick-Fil-A would be too expensive.  I'd have to apply for welfare or some other gov't sponsored program like food stamps since I would be flat broke after paying for my Rolls.  But at least I'd have a place to sleep! :open_mouth: 

    All kidding aside, I agree with you that people who buy a Bugatti are people who "want" what most others "can't have/afford"!

    You mean people don't buy a $1million, 194,000 Bugatti Veyron to get "the feel of the road"?


    I think you can hit a market where price doesn't mean a lot. The buyer has more money than he can ever spend, and if he wants it he'll buy it and what difference will it make...he won't have to try to pinch pennies by buying a cheaper brand of wine or something.

    I guess the owner may think it tells the world he has lots of money.
    For me it just says, the owner has more money than brains.


    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    People complain about big yachts too, but the flip side is that the pricy toys create jobs for "regular" people.
  • abacomikeabacomike South FloridaPosts: 10,408
    @driver100 said:

    "I guess the owner may think it tells the world he has lots of money.  For me it just says, the owner has more money than brains."

    Driver, the same could be said about you or me for spending $60,000+ on a Mercedes-Benz when we could purchase Buicks or Cadillacs or even Lincolns for $20,000-$30,000 less and be driving excellent vehicles. :worried: 

    The fact is, all this amounts to is relative perceived value and all the perceptions we and others possess.  I would consider anyone who buys a Bentley, Rolls, Bugatti, Porsche, Lambourghini, Ferrari, etc., out of their mind - while there are those who consider you and/or me out of out minds for buying a Mercedes-Benz.  Everything is relative, driver.  Don't you agree?


    2018 Mercedes S450

  • driver100driver100 Burlington, ON 7 mo/Tampa FL 5 moPosts: 24,630
    abacomike said:

    @driver100 said:

    "I guess the owner may think it tells the world he has lots of money.  For me it just says, the owner has more money than brains."

    Driver, the same could be said about you or me for spending $60,000+ on a Mercedes-Benz when we could purchase Buicks or Cadillacs or even Lincolns for $20,000-$30,000 less and be driving excellent vehicles. :worried: 

    The fact is, all this amounts to is relative perceived value and all the perceptions we and others possess.  I would consider anyone who buys a Bentley, Rolls, Bugatti, Porsche, Lambourghini, Ferrari, etc., out of their mind - while there are those who consider you and/or me out of out minds for buying a Mercedes-Benz.  Everything is relative, driver.  Don't you agree?


    Basically I do agree...but, I still tend to think there is a limit to what makes sense - cost wise.

    I pay what I do because the E400 has everything I want, safety, comfort, handling, styling that I like. I could probably really stretch the budget and get something more expensive....say a G Class, maybe a Porsch Panamera........but, it is way more car than I need. I really don't think I would get any more enjoyment out of owning it. The only enjoyment would be that people know I can afford it, and that doesn't really do me a lot of good.


    After thinking it over, I think I should keep my mouth shut about telling people what makes sense to spend on a car (I take back the more money than brains comment - if you got it, spend it however you want to), but, I do think there is a level of satisfaction that a person could go past, and I think they are looking for more than what a car can give them, once you go past a certain price point.

    Many items give you a lot of happiness when you buy them, but that wears off after a few months. What you are left with is a car that you will continue to like (and I have no desire to trade in the E, I don't think any car would suit me better), or, if you spend way over that threshold, you will still just have a car you are satisfied with. In other words, I think one can get carried away....even if they can afford something.

    There must be a clearer way to say it.

    One more thought, I was just as thrilled, maybe even more thrilled when I bought my 1992 Cavalier and my 95 Jeep as I was with the E400, maybe even more so. And those cars cost me more of my income percentage wise than the E, so what does that mean?

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • abacomikeabacomike South FloridaPosts: 10,408
    @driver100 said:

    "One more thought, I was just as thrilled, maybe even more thrilled when I bought my 1992 Cavalier and my 95 Jeep as I was with the E400, maybe even more so. And those cars cost me more of my income percentage wise than the E, so what does that mean?"

    Everything is relative - relative to a point in time during one's life and the income one had at that time and the cost of things in comparison to that income.  

    I paid $4800 for my 1967 Stingray Coupe in 1967.  Today, a new Stingray with the big engine costs $70,000+.  So, as I stated, it's all relative!

    2018 Mercedes S450

  • abacomikeabacomike South FloridaPosts: 10,408
    stever said:
    People complain about big yachts too, but the flip side is that the pricy toys create jobs for "regular" people.
    You are correct in this analysis.  The more the wealthy spend on big ticket items such as cars, houses, yachts, clothing, and other consumer products, more job opportunities develop for the middle and lower income classes.  


    2018 Mercedes S450

  • nelsonfnelsonf SeattlePosts: 104
    So if someone gets flagged, the post is automatically deleted, or does one of the moderators review it first?

    Currently own: 2017 BMW M4, 2011 Nissan Frontier Pro-4X Used to own: 2008 VW R32, 1998 Jeep Cherokee Sport, 1987 BMW 325IS

  • driver100driver100 Burlington, ON 7 mo/Tampa FL 5 moPosts: 24,630
    nelsonf said:

    So if someone gets flagged, the post is automatically deleted, or does one of the moderators review it first?

    Good question!

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • fezofezo Manahawkin, NJPosts: 10,376
    I'll admit something that skews the new/used equation for me. As I mentioned I've had better luck with used, only really having one bad one. I've only really bought three new cars. An 80 Rabbit, a 95 Windstall and an 00 Honda Accord so my suck meter is at 67% for new cars.

    Obviously a small sample and two bad choices. At least I can blame my wife on the Windstall...
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • suydamsuydam Posts: 4,086
    It could have been worse. You could have got the '80 Fiesta, the even cheaper alternative to the Rabbit. Our first car. Not a happy memory.
    '14 Buick Encore Convenience
    '17 Chevy Volt Premiere
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 20,225
    You had bad luck with a Fiesta?? We had one and it was near bulletproof!
  • driver100driver100 Burlington, ON 7 mo/Tampa FL 5 moPosts: 24,630
    fezo said:

    I'll admit something that skews the new/used equation for me. As I mentioned I've had better luck with used, only really having one bad one. I've only really bought three new cars. An 80 Rabbit, a 95 Windstall and an 00 Honda Accord so my suck meter is at 67% for new cars.

    Obviously a small sample and two bad choices. At least I can blame my wife on the Windstall...

    I give you credit for admitting to the Rabbit and Windstall. That definitely means your new car sampling has been greatly handicapped even before you got going.

    Think about what the record would be like if those new cars had been used cars, then where would the standings be?



    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • abacomikeabacomike South FloridaPosts: 10,408
    You had bad luck with a Fiesta?? We had one and it was near bulletproof!
    Bulletproof is good, but how did it run? :open_mouth: 

    2018 Mercedes S450

  • fezofezo Manahawkin, NJPosts: 10,376
    After Mike's 3 year under 30K theory which is a slightly tighter version of my own philosophy I went to Autotrader and popped in cars that met that with a $20K cap and was surprised at the number of cars within 50 or so miles of me. More surprised that most of them were Hondas but that makes sense. I said it had to have a sunroof and a manual. All Honda EXs have sunroofs so they dominated the list - mostly Civic Si which would be OK. A couple of Accords (when did the current generation start?). Some VWs, including some nice GTIs but VW certified only comes with a 2 year 24K warranty. I'll grant most others do one year but have a 7 year 100K powertrain warranty. VW doesn't. There was a quite attractive Fusion which got a giggle out of me because they said they treat their per-owned customers with the same respect as those buying new. Given my history with Ford that's not encouraging but if I'm shopping that might well be in the mix if for no other reason than it's a more practical family car. If I can manage a couple of more years out of the Mazda the family car bit may no longer be a big deal.

    Given those limitations, there were 3 Mazdas (all 3 sedans), 1 Scion, a couple of Hyundai Elantras and that's pretty much it. No Subaru, no GM or Chrysler...
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • fezofezo Manahawkin, NJPosts: 10,376
    isell will love this. When I dropped the transmission requirement I went from 50 choices to 1,603.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 32,913
    #s sound about right, % wise.

    2019 Acura TLX A-spec 4 cyl. (mine), and 2013 Acura RDX AWD (wife's)

  • fezofezo Manahawkin, NJPosts: 10,376
    I hate to admit this but given the number of times I have to be in NYC and automatic wouldn't be the end of the world.

    Some funny things - I look and there one after the other is a 2013 Corolla or a 2012 Regal. Similar mileage and same price. Gee, that's a toughie....

    Also a red Mazda 6 - 2014 with17k and all the doo dad. An automatic but one that lets you shift. This could work.

    Now watch my mechanic fix the car cheap. No complaints if that happened. I do like the car a lot.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • bwiabwia Boston Posts: 2,337
    edited May 2015
    Auto sales are up in April and SUVs and trucks are leading the way. For all the talk about luxury brands like Mercedes Benz and Audi, they hardly register a blip in terms of market share.
    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-WRkmMG6Y6g0/VUPXVtFGI2I/AAAAAAAArpE/jgfU6337VX4/s1600/USA+auto+sales+market+share+chart+April+2015.jpg
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