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Comments

  • stickguystickguy Posts: 30,783

    @oldfarmer50 said:
    Local screamer dealer is offering $4000 off on all 2014 VW GTIs. Is that good?

    Not a VW guy but that sounds like a lot.

    Would not be surprised. The 2015s are on the ground (I saw 2 of them Thursday at the dealer, and they are very nice, and IMO a big improvement), so the 14's are day old bread at this point. Still, they don't tend to have that many in stock, so a bit surprising they are knocking off that much (unless of course they are working off a dealer addendum sticker to cook the books).

    I should probably add VW dealers to the list of places I better stay away from.

    2019 Acura TLX A-spec 4 cyl. (mine), and 2013 Acura RDX AWD (wife's)

  • steverstever Posts: 52,683
    edited June 2014

    @imidazol97 said:
    So there must be quite a bit of hidden factory to dealer money as the end of the model year approaches.

    Invoice pricing doesn't mean what it used to.

    "Automakers have fattened dealers' "invoice" or wholesale price so it looks as if they're paying a lot more than they used to — perhaps 95% of the retail sticker price, vs. 85% before Internet car shopping began in the mid-1990s."

    Surprising tips for car shopping in Internet age (USA Today)

  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Posts: 12,130

    "The one he sold to the guy in the next building was a base 2008 Camry with 17,000 miles on it. The guy gave him $9500 for it."

    That guy standing outside your gate waiting for the next 80 year old to sell at 17,000 miles is me. :D

    2015 Mustang GT, 2009 PT Cruiser, 2004 Chevy Van, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • abacomikeabacomike South FloridaPosts: 9,971
    @oldfarmer said:

    "That guy standing outside your gate waiting for the next 80 year old to sell at 17,000 miles is me. "

    I'll post your interest on the bulletin boards. What usually happens here is the children of those 80+ year olds sell the car the day after their father's funeral - I kid you not!

    2018 Mercedes S450

  • sterlingdogsterlingdog North CarolinaPosts: 6,984

    @abacomike said:
    oldfarmer said:

    "That guy standing outside your gate waiting for the next 80 year old to sell at 17,000 miles is me. "

    I'll post your interest on the bulletin boards. What usually happens here is the children of those 80+ year olds sell the car the day after their father's funeral - I kid you not!

    Mike, you are so right. One of my wife's friends died last year. A week later, her two children had sold both cars and the house was completely empty with a "For Sale" sign out front. I couldn't work that fast if I did it to myself!

    BTW, you are so nice to help the elderly in your community to buy their new cars. I'm sure that they appreciate it very much. I need you here with me because I'm out and about on the lots now. Plan to purchase within the next 30 days. As usual, I'm trying to use all of the lessons that I have learned on this site over the years.

    Richard

  • stickguystickguy Posts: 30,783

    so Richard, what are the prime contenders at this point?

    and I enjoyed watching the Open last week and seeing shots of Pinehurst. Looked like a beautiful town. But probably horrible to be there during a major tournament.

    2019 Acura TLX A-spec 4 cyl. (mine), and 2013 Acura RDX AWD (wife's)

  • bwiabwia Boston Posts: 2,246

    @stever said:
    "Automakers have fattened dealers' "invoice" or wholesale price so it looks as if they're paying a lot more than they used to — perhaps 95% of the retail sticker price, vs. 85% before Internet car shopping began in the mid-1990s."

    Surprising tips for car shopping in Internet age (USA Today)

    That's what I have been saying all along, that so-called "invoice" price is as phony as a three dollar bill. How can a company sell a product with a 5% or 15% gross margin and expect to survive? It cannot be done.

    The historical average gross margin for all American companies is about 40%, so what makes auto dealerships any different? A good example of that is to look at how the auto dealer service department price their services.

    The labor rate includes a base price plus a built in profit margin as well as an additional amount to cover overhead. The same formula is used for parts. The mark-up on parts includes an amount to cover both overhead and a built in profit margin.

    By extension, if we apply this pricing formula to the sale of the car itself we can see that invoice is quite meaningless. Even the so-called experts, according to USA Today, said they didn't know what invoice is/was, yet they continue to publish this dribble.

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 22,743
    edited June 2014

    @bwia said:
    By extension, if we apply this pricing formula to the sale of the car itself we can see that invoice is quite meaningless. Even the so-called experts, according to USA Today, said they didn't know what invoice is/was, yet they continue to publish this dribble.

    What has occurred is that the companies have insulated themselves from transparency in the pricing. They reacted to the publication of their invoice price and the other cost factors by developing other systems which the public has no ability to collect information about. Lack of transparency. And they have good lobby systems. Here in Ohio, the law is written that allows dealers to collect a document fee, up to $250, on time contracts (loans). However, the dealers use that as a mandatory doc fee always at the maxiumum. They already have it printed on their contract. So someone paying cash doesn't need to pay any of it. But they get irritable when someone points out that deficiency and they start babbling about how they could be sued if they charge someone a different fee than someone else is charged. But that fee puts them in charge and mandates the buyer's having to work down from that rather than the dealer having work up to gleen that extra profit.

    Here in Ohio, the dealers are even trying to block Tesla from using storefronts to sell rather than dealership buildings. Can't have cars being sold through stores like Walmart or CVS, can we. Tesla has 3 stores IIRC. I can just see all the lobby money going to the legislators. My state representative will not respond to questions about the document fee and the Tesla sales model and the dealer lobbying. Almost like the IRS.

    No wonder the stores can sell at invoice or below and build the new shiny showrooms they have and all the highly paid suits walking around while sales bots work their butts off. The GM stores have been improving their stores for 5 years or more, replacing or remodeling to get to white tile on the floor and a clean appearance.

    2015 Cruze 2LT, 2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT

  • stickguystickguy Posts: 30,783

    well, look at it the other way, no other industry even publishes the dribble. so take what you can get! But since it is common knowledge that the published #s are more of a "show me" trick, just shop for the lowest actual price (which is the bottom line that matters). what the manufacturer is doing behind the scenes to support the dealer (keep the metal moving) is up to them.

    supply/demand and competition is still the driving force behind pricing.

    also, we always hear that new car sales is somewhat of a loss leader to get you into the dealership. Other stuff (used cars, parts, service, F&I) is where the real money is made, and you need the new car sales to front for all that.

    2019 Acura TLX A-spec 4 cyl. (mine), and 2013 Acura RDX AWD (wife's)

  • abacomikeabacomike South FloridaPosts: 9,971
    @bwia said:

    "Even the so-called experts, according to USA Today, said they didn't know what invoice is/was, yet they continue to publish this dribble."

    There is a difference between dealer invoice and factory invoice. Dealer invoice is what the dealer pays the manufacturer for a vehicle delivered to his place of business for sale. Factory invoice does not include holdback or credits for incentives and other trunk money available to the dealer. So the invoice numbers shown on Edmunds is really factory invoice.

    Dealers sell cars to their employees and some customers who are favored at what is called "triple net"! That is final dealer invoice after all incentives, holdback, trunk money, etc.

    I believe that listing invoice is essential in order for consumers to have a place to develop negotiating strategies. Without that, where does one start? Do you take MSRP and subtract 8%, 9%, 10%? It would be a complete guessing game with no idea of what a car could be purchased for.

    With an invoice price and some knowledge from Edmunds of incentives or what others are paying, you can develop a negotiating strategy. Otherwise you could go from dealer to dealer like in the old days and never have any idea what to negotiate from.

    Something is better than nothing, right?

    2018 Mercedes S450

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 22,743
    edited June 2014

    @abacomike said:
    There is a difference between dealer invoice and factory invoice. Dealer invoice is what the dealer pays the manufacturer for a vehicle delivered to his place of business for sale. Factory invoice does not include holdback or credits for incentives and other trunk money available to the dealer. So the invoice numbers shown on Edmunds is really factory invoice.

    Do I interpret correctly what you've said to be that dealer invoice is a higher number because it includes money that eventually may be paid back to the dealer, holdback, trunk money, dealer incentives?

    The factory invoice number is a lower value where all the holdback and other incentives to be paid to dealer have been subtracted?

    And the Edmunds number is really the lower of these two?

    2015 Cruze 2LT, 2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT

  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Posts: 12,130

    @abacomike said:
    oldfarmer said:

    "That guy standing outside your gate waiting for the next 80 year old to sell at 17,000 miles is me. "

    I'll post your interest on the bulletin boards. What usually happens here is the children of those 80+ year olds sell the car the day after their father's funeral - I kid you not!

    That's one of the reasons I'd like to live in Florida. So many pristine low milage cars that received easy use.

    2015 Mustang GT, 2009 PT Cruiser, 2004 Chevy Van, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Posts: 12,130
    edited June 2014

    "...Mike, you are so right. One of my wife's friends died last year. A week later, her two children had sold both cars and the house was completely empty with a "For Sale" sign out front. I couldn't work that fast if I did it to myself!..."

    When my mother died it took me two months to get her apartment emptied out...and she didn't have a car. They must have taken a beating on the sale price of the cars to move them so quick. How would you get the title switched that fast? I wonder if they just went to a dealer and took the first offer.

    2015 Mustang GT, 2009 PT Cruiser, 2004 Chevy Van, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • steverstever Posts: 52,683
    edited June 2014

    My MIL died a few months back and the estate is moving slowly. But there is a line of buyers for her '03 Buick. The executor may have to go the sealed bid route to avoid making half the town mad (it's a small town).

    I'm not even sure the dealer owner knows the cost of a particular car until the books get closed at the end of the month or quarter. But having "invoice" price at least gives you a starting place to begin negotiations - $1,000 off invoice makes more sense to me than saying you want $3,000 off MSRP.

    We're negotiating house buying right now and we're not head over heels in love with any house and there's no hurry moving, so we're in the driver's seat a little bit. But one seller is a bank with little interest in compromising and the other seller is our age and doesn't care if we buy his house or not. I think that means someone else is going to overpay, but I've overpaid before for the "right" house. Over time, it's really not about the money.

  • ab348ab348 Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CanadaPosts: 9,275

    @stever said:
    We're negotiating house buying right now and we're not head over heels in love with any house and there's no hurry moving, so we're in the driver's seat a little bit. But one seller is a bank with little interest in compromising and the other seller is our age and doesn't care if we buy his house or not. I think that means someone else is going to overpay, but I've overpaid before for the "right" house. Over time, it's really not about the money.

    I thought banks didn't like having houses on their books and preferred to have cash? I would have thought they would be eager to compromise.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6, 1968 Oldsmobile Cutlass S Holiday Coupe

  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 20,202

    If a person buys a house or a car for that matter and is happy with the transaction,, they didn't "overpay".

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 22,743

    @stever said:

    But there is a line of buyers for her '03 Buick. The executor may have to go the sealed bid route to avoid making half the town mad (it's a small town).

    I can see why they'd want to get a good deal on a 2003 Buick. Mine has been good.

    2015 Cruze 2LT, 2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT

  • steverstever Posts: 52,683
    edited June 2014

    @ab348, you'd think so wouldn't you? But you're dealing with a "bureaucracy" not a motivated seller. They countered and we've had longer buyer's remorse than usual, so we're going to keep looking.

    @isellhondas, exactly. We begged our landlady to sell for six months, and paid $5,000 over appraisal in '84 on a modest home in Anchorage (great neighborhood though), and financed it at 13%. We were underwater for 7 seven out of the 15 years we lived there and we broke even when we moved. It was perfect for us at that time in in our life and we never lost a bit of sleep over owning it.

  • mako1amako1a VirginiaPosts: 1,855

    @isellhondas said:
    If a person buys a house or a car for that matter and is happy with the transaction,, they didn't "overpay".

    It's not the amount they paid that makes a buyer happy...It's knowing he got it for 1 dollar less than the last guy.

    2013 Mustang GT, 2001 GMC Yukon Denali

  • graphicguygraphicguy Edmunds Poster EmeritusPosts: 11,177
    edited June 2014

    @imidazol97 said:
    What has occurred is that the companies have insulated themselves from transparency in the pricing. They reacted to the publication of their invoice price and the other cost factors by developing other systems which the public has no ability to collect information about. Lack of transparency. And they have good lobby systems. Here in Ohio, the law is written that allows dealers to collect a document fee, up to $250, on time contracts (loans). However, the dealers use that as a mandatory doc fee always at the maxiumum. They already have it printed on their contract. So someone paying cash doesn't need to pay any of it. But they get irritable when someone points out that deficiency and they start babbling about how they could be sued if they charge someone a different fee than someone else is charged. But that fee puts them in charge and mandates the buyer's having to work down from that rather than the dealer having work up to gleen that extra profit.

    Here in Ohio, the dealers are even trying to block Tesla from using storefronts to sell rather than dealership buildings. Can't have cars being sold through stores like Walmart or CVS, can we. Tesla has 3 stores IIRC. I can just see all the lobby money going to the legislators. My state representative will not respond to questions about the document fee and the Tesla sales model and the dealer lobbying. Almost like the IRS.
    No wonder the stores can sell at invoice or below and build the new shiny they have and all the highly paid suits walking around while sales bots work their butts off. The GM stores have been improving their stores for 5 years or more, replacing or remodeling to get to white tile on the floor and a clean appearance.

    Imid....well put. I don't force any dealer to sell to me without a doc fee, as the last few cars I've purchased have been cash transactions. Of course, they eventually drop the fees when I don't include them in my offers, but not before some level of histrionics posed by the dealers.

    Most dealers will go below invoice with little prodding. That tells us all we need to know about "unknown trunk money" being prevalent in most new car transactions.

    2018 Acura TLX 3.5 SH AWD A-SPEC
  • sterlingdogsterlingdog North CarolinaPosts: 6,984

    @oldfarmer50 said:
    "...Mike, you are so right. One of my wife's friends died last year. A week later, her two children had sold both cars and the house was completely empty with a "For Sale" sign out front. I couldn't work that fast if I did it to myself!..."

    When my mother died it took me two months to get her apartment emptied out...and she didn't have a car. They must have taken a beating on the sale price of the cars to move them so quick. How would you get the title switched that fast? I wonder if they just went to a dealer and took the first offer.

    As we were told, the funeral was on Sunday with an estate sale set for the next Saturday which included the MB and the Accord. At the end of the day all had disappeared. The house itself is in a court battle. The house was left to the Statue of Liberty Foundation. The two children contested, so the house just sits there. Personally, I hope the Foundation wins the case. Those two children are what I would refer to as "Pluckers of Pockets" and "Pursuers of the Purses". I'm being nice because we are on a family channel here.

    Richard

  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 20,202

    Why should car dealers be "transparent"?

    Why should car buyers know exactly what a dealer paid for a car?

    If you buy a new camera, jewelry or construction material, you don't know this nor should you.

    When I buy something I don't care what the store paid for it. I only care if that item represents what I think is value for my dollars spent.

    Car dealers are fed up with Invoice Buyers and it sounds like the manufactures are finding ways to build some back door profit into the cars they are building.

    Good for them! A merchant HAS to make a profit in order to pay overhead and stay in business.

  • sterlingdogsterlingdog North CarolinaPosts: 6,984

    @stickguy said:
    so Richard, what are the prime contenders at this point?

    and I enjoyed watching the Open last week and seeing shots of Pinehurst. Looked like a beautiful town. But probably horrible to be there during a major tournament.

    You watched the Open and you didn't see me? ;) We had tickets for one day so we drove over. We saw the first hole in person, watched the remainder on the clubhouse TV with food and drink, and then went outside the back door to watch the 18th hole in person. It's the lazy man's way, but my wife and I can't take that heat and humidity now that we are older. Believe me, you don't want to live there during an Open. We lived in Pinehurst during the last Open and it was the nightmare from hell. No way we could eat in a restaurant or get into a grocery store for two weeks. They even closed the road to our housing development and routed us out the rear entrance which meant driving five miles out of the way to get back where you intended to go. Some people rent their homes to news crews for $10,000 a week and go on vacation until the Open has ended. There is a downside to that: You often come home to a trashed house and have to file an insurance claim for damage repairs. Those news guys WILL throw a party or two. We got a couple of offers because our house was one mile from the airport. We had formed a pact with our neighbors----no takers in our neighborhood.

    Prime contenders at this point? Ford F150 Crew Cab XLT, Chevy 1500 Silverado, Honda Pilot, Jeep Grand Cherokee, and Caddy CTS. Wife has relented on the pick up truck which thrills me to no end. I've wanted a truck for years. Color choices for the trucks are Ruby Red Metallic or Oxford White. Interior colors---cocoa tan or alabaster gray. It's fun looking right now. Will keep you posted.

    Richard

  • abacomikeabacomike South FloridaPosts: 9,971
    @imidazol97‌ said:

    "The factory invoice number is a lower value where all the holdback and other incentives to be paid to dealer have been subtracted?"

    If memory serves me correctly, the numbers Edmunds shows as invoice for a vehicle is not the "net/net/net" invoice of the car. It does not show incentives, etc.

    Edmunds shows the invoice without any trunk money, available coupons, incentives, etc. But it is a good place to start. Use that figure and subtract dealer incentives and customer cash back.

    2018 Mercedes S450

  • abacomikeabacomike South FloridaPosts: 9,971
    @isellhondas said:

    "Why should car dealers be "transparent"?
    Why should car buyers know exactly what a dealer paid for a car?"

    I am not in disagreement with your position, isell! Bloomingdales, Macy's, Boeing, Walmart, etc., do not share that information so why should auto dealers?

    It is up to the buyer to research pricing in any way he can. Edmunds is just one source. What's fair in love and war? Everything and anything goes, in my opinion.

    It is the buyer's responsibility to learn as much as he can about vehicle pricing. But it is not the responsibility of the dealership to share net/net/net cost of a car. As long as there are sources to gather most of that information, the buyer is not as defenseless as he used to be 20 years ago.

    2018 Mercedes S450

  • ab348ab348 Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CanadaPosts: 9,275

    @sterlingdog said:
    Prime contenders at this point? Ford F150 Crew Cab XLT, Chevy 1500 Silverado, Honda Pilot, Jeep Grand Cherokee, and Caddy CTS. Wife has relented on the pick up truck which thrills me to no end. I've wanted a truck for years. Color choices for the trucks are Ruby Red Metallic or Oxford White. Interior colors---cocoa tan or alabaster gray. It's fun looking right now. Will keep you posted.

    The new Silverado is nice but I like the GMC Sierra even better.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6, 1968 Oldsmobile Cutlass S Holiday Coupe

  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 20,202

    @abacomike said:
    isellhondas said:

    "Why should car dealers be "transparent"?
    Why should car buyers know exactly what a dealer paid for a car?"

    I am not in disagreement with your position, isell! Bloomingdales, Macy's, Boeing, Walmart, etc., do not share that information so why should auto dealers?

    It is up to the buyer to research pricing in any way he can. Edmunds is just one source. What's fair in love and war? Everything and anything goes, in my opinion.

    It is the buyer's responsibility to learn as much as he can about vehicle pricing. But it is not the responsibility of the dealership to share net/net/net cost of a car. As long as there are sources to gather most of that information, the buyer is not as defenseless as he used to be 20 years ago.

    Well stated.

    I used to love it when a used car buyer would get so frustrated when they knew they had no idea what we had paid for the car they were looking at.

    Some people just couldn't bear the thought that we might be making more profit then they thought was "fair". Fair to some people meant a 200.00 profit on a 20,000 car.

  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Posts: 12,130

    "...Why should car buyers know exactly what a dealer paid for a car?

    If you buy a new camera, jewelry or construction material, you don't know this nor should you."

    Well, maybe because you're spending $30-$40 thousand instead of $3-$4 hundred.

    2015 Mustang GT, 2009 PT Cruiser, 2004 Chevy Van, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • mako1amako1a VirginiaPosts: 1,855

    Ford F150 Crew Cab XLT. Richard, all of your choices have merit. I have done a lot of research on the F-150 in all of it's levels. XL and XLT are base levels. Lariat is when they get a lot of goodies. Then once you drive a Platinum you won't want to see another XLT. Limited is over the top. Platinum has the retractable step which I found to be perfect. Also the 2015s are supposed to be all aluminum. No rust ever and 400 pounds lighter. The ecoboost engine has only been out since 2011 and I've heard nothing but good about it except it costs abut $4k more. I like the tried and true 302 engine (5.0 litre).

    2013 Mustang GT, 2001 GMC Yukon Denali

  • driver100driver100 Burlington, ON 7 mo/Tampa FL 5 moPosts: 22,939

    4 hour ferrie ride from Wales to Ireland.
    Saw the best car name yet........I saw a VW UP! Even has the exclamation point in the name.
    The Galaxy 10 is useless for this...I can't copy and paste.
    Also touchscreen is going to make me insane.
    Trying to get on Google or anything is next to impossible.
    Writing emails on Gmail could also be very frustrating.
    Since the site has a new name I think you guys are trying to set a new record by matching Sales Frontlines.

    Now in Dublin Ireland.....headed for Belfast. Hip hip Cheerio and all that.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

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