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Pros: Upscale interior, upscale exterior, solid structure, lots of features for the price.
Cons: Coarse engine, rubbery shifter
Bottom line: Worthy competitor to Civic, Corolla, and the rest--if it had a better powertrain.
My first impression of the Forenza was positive. I liked the sleek styling, and the interior was nicely done for such an inexpensive car--rich cloth, fake aluminum accents, cushy center armrest, stereo controls on the wheel, fold-down armrest in the rear seat. The driver's seat has a dual-knob height adjuster that let me adjust the seat just right. The driving position was comfortable with tilt wheel and a large deadpedal. The gauges are simple and clear, and nice looking with silver accents. Even the base model comes with power windows/locks/mirrors and an 8-speaker stereo/CD/cassette which sounded great for such an inexpensive car. The rear seat is roomy, especially leg room (I'm 5'9") and has a fold-down armrest with cupholders. Even the front seat backs are cloth, and overall I thought the interior looked much more upscale than the price would indicate. Switchgear was fine, although the turn-signal stalk was not Honda/Toyota smooth. A/C is standard of course. There's a nicely padded center armrest with storage, and overhead map lights and a sunglasses holder.
My positive impression began to fade a bit as I got underway. The 126 hp engine (some mags say 119, but the window sticker said 126) is smooth enough at idle, and the clutch is smooth and easy. But the clutch travel seemed long and the shifter was rubbery, not precise at all compared to cars like Elantra, Civic, Corolla, and Mazda3. Reverse is up and to the left, and took some work to engage. Also, engine vibrations are felt through the shifter, which detracts from the upscale feel of the rest of the car and gets tiresome (I know, my '97 Sentra did the same thing). Clutch engagement is smooth and acceleration is more than adequate around town and up to highway speed. EPA ratings for the 5-speed are only 21 city/30 highway--pretty low for this class, especially considering it's only 126 horses. Handling is nothing special, but at least as good as an Elantra or Corolla but not as good as a Civic or Mazda3 (which IMO is best-in-class there). Ride is firm but not harsh. Engine noise is about average for this class--about the same as an Elantra, Civic, or Mazda3. The S doesn't have cruise, but the LX and EX models do. The heater warmed the interior in about five minutes at 23 F. The body structure seemed solid with no squeaks or rattles. I don't know how it will hold up, but it seemed light years ahead of its predecessor, the Nubria.
I came away from the test drive thinking that the Forenza could have been a home run for Suzuki had they equipped it with a better powertrain. If the automatic is smooth, that would take care of the shifter problem, but I prefer a stick shift with a small car. But the engine is not as smooth as even other Korean competition (Elantra), and has less power and lower mpg than most competitors. However, if buyers can get past that they would have a pleasant, good-looking compact sedan that can seat four adults very comfortably and in some semblance of style, at a bargain price (assuming there will be rebates and discounts available). Then there's the LX model, which for not much more money adds features like moonroof, alloys, and cruise. The EX adds leather. Plus Suzuki offers a strong warranty--7 year, 100k mile transferrable powertrain warranty. A lot of car for a little over 10 grand.
The Forenza is a stop gap effort to bring cash into the operation while new product is engineered.
As it is, those buying solely on price get a bigger, nicer looking car than the Civics and Corollas in the same price range.
Forget the power toys, just a minimally equipped Civic, which I consider as Air and a CD, will cost at least $14,500, which is considerably more than the sub-13K price of the Forenza.
Next, the Suzuki will be rebated and the Honda is not, while both cars can be bargained down about the same amount from MSRP, the result is that the Suzuki is a full price-class lower, competing against the Hyuundai Accent, not the Honda Civic.
I haven't driven the Forenza so I can't compare them, but I did spend 3 days in a rental 2001 Accent 3-Door automatic (same as the 04 except for no side airbags) and found it to be a very acceptable way to get from A to B. In fact, when I bought a new economy car last month, I was very close to buying an Accent. It was only the VERY aggressive rebates on the Mazda Protege that prevented me buying one (2003 Protege DX auto/AC $11,200).
One thing I noticed about the Forenza's pricing--they'd better start the rebates soon. Right now the TMV for a loaded Elantra GT is actually less than the TMV for the Forenza LX, but the GT is equipped like the Forenza EX (with leather interior). They won't sell many Forenzas that way.
The first thing that struck me about the Rio is that it's a nice-looking little car (subjective, I know). Curvy lines, interesting tail light design, and even the wheel covers look pretty decent. The Ion is, well, maybe it would grow on me. I did notice the paint finish and panel gaps on the Rio were excellent. The Ion, with its plastic body panels, has necessarily wide panel gaps (to allow for expansion). Even so, the Rio looked to me like a more expensive car than the Ion. On the door slam test, the Rio also did better than the Ion--probably due to the plastic panels again.
Inside, both the Rio and the Ion are about as spartan as it gets--lots of dark plastic and not much else. However, the Ion did have an AM/FM radio at least. The Rio had a black plastic plate instead (next stop: Best Buy). The Ion also had a full complement of (center-mounted) gauges, while the Rio had no tach. Both sets of instruments were clear, but I preferred the more traditional layout of the Rio. The switchgear of the Ion, especially the HVAC controls, felt cheap. The Rio's controls, surprisingly, felt smoother than the Ion's, with the turn-signal stalk feeling almost Honda-like.
The biggest difference in the interior was the driver's seat. The Rio had a multi-adjustable seat with two knobs to adjust the seat cushion height--just like on my Elantra. I was able to adjust the seat of the Rio just right and it was very comfortable--incredibly so for such an inexpensive car. The Ion's seat cushion had no height adjuster and was not nearly as comfortable as the Rio's. I did check out an Ion 2 with the lever-type seat height adjuster, and it helped but still did not provide the range of adjustment and comfort of the Rio's seat. The Ion's trunk is pretty large for a compact, and interestingly the battery is in the same compartment as the spare tire.
The Ion had more room in the back seat than the Ion but not by much. My toes felt cramped and my legs touched the front seat (5'10", 32" inseam). Worse, the seat cushion was not high enough so my legs stuck up in the air, and the top of my head touched the headliner. While the Rio had a little less knee space, I actually felt more comfortable in its back seat because there was more toe space, my thighs made contact with the seat cushion, and there was more headroom. You would not want to put more than two adults or three small children in back of either car for any length of time. The trunk of the Rio is small but well-finished.
On the road, the cars exhibited different strengths and weaknesses. The Ion had excellent ride quality--smooth and compliant. Its electric power steering was pleasant to use, and the brakes (non-ABS) were smooth and progressive. Handling was OK, not too crisp but not sloppy either. (The Ion 1 has 14" tires, and other models have bigger rubber.) The engine had plenty of power but did not seem as peppy as its 140 horses promised. However, the engine was coarse and thrashy, even at idle. At one point I thought that it reminded me of a lawn mower engine. Cruising at 65-70 mph, the engine noise wasn't too bad, but the combination of wind noise, tire noise, and engine noise did not make for a calm environment. The shifter was vague but got the job done--not nearly in the same class as Honda, Hyundai, Mazda, and Toyota, but about as good as the similarly-priced Suzuki Forenza I drove recently. The body structure seemed solid, but there were a couple of plastic-y squeaks coming from the driver's side and passenger side.
The Rio was a different driving experience altogether. First, it had non-power steering (shades of my first car, a '66 Coronet). Therefore, steering in parking lots was a chore. Spend a few extra bucks and get the power steering. The ride was firm, but not punishing. The handling was sharp, almost on a par with the Protege. It was actually a lot of fun to drive on the twisties; there was little body lean going around cloverleafs at 40 mph. Put some bigger rubber on it, and it could be quite a road-carver. The big downside with the Rio was engine noise while cruising on the highway. With no tach, I couldn't tell how fast the engine was churning at 65-70 mph, but it sounded like it was working very hard. Acceleration with the 5-speed was fine for around-town driving; you won't win any drag races, but the shifter was more precise than the Ion's (although a little stiff--could have been the cold or newness). I don't think I'd want an automatic in the Rio, however. The brakes were more grabby than the Ion's but after I adjusted for that they were fine. There was a little wind noise but less than in the Ion. The body seemed very solid and there were no squeaks or rattles.
Overall, I came away from the test drives with more respect for the Rio. It's no more than basic transportation, but it has a comfortable driver's seat, its handling can put a smile on your face, and it can fit into tight parking spaces (get the power steering unless you have Ahnold-sized forearms). It's a solid little car that feels more expensive than it is. The Ion, on the other hand, has smooth ride, braking, and steering but not much else going for it besides those rust-free plastic body panels (not a small thing here in the Rust Belt). Of course, the Rio has the Kia Long-Haul Warranty also.
So which is the better value? IMO, neither one. With some basic options like power steering, A/C, and CD stereo, a '03 Rio can be had for under $11k after rebate and dealer discounting. The Ion 1 would be over $12k with that same equipment. For the same money, or even less, you can buy a '03 Elantra GLS with power everything, SABs, more rear-seat room, and more refinement than either the Rio or the Ion. And if you're a Hyundai owner, as I am, take $2000 off either a '03 or '04 Elantra. A comparably-equipped Rio or Ion would be thousands more. However, if all you want is basic "heat and go" transportation, the Rio can give you that for around $8000--with the Long-Haul warranty to boot. Then it's really a choice between the 4-door Rio or the 2-door Accent.
~alpha
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
backy-what did'ya say to majorthomecho to chase him outta here? He was such a major contributor to this thread for what seemed like years.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Looking forward to driving the Aveo, as well as the all-new Spectra when it arrives. I've driven everything else in the low-end class. But I'll have work to do with the new arrivals due soon like the Scions (in my area, this summer), Spectra, and Cobalt (if in fact it starts under $15k). The Accent is due for a redesign this fall but I haven't heard a word about it--has anyone else?
Yeah, we car nuts are a group defined by an intense yearning to learn more about these silly objects on four wheels that zip us rather quickly all over the place. Sort of a learned art not shared by everybody--that's for sure.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
"Side crash test results can be compared across all classes because all vehicles are hit with the same barrier and at the same force."
In other words, you are theoretically safer in a side impact in an 03 Accent then you are in an 03 Camry, Century, Concorde, Passat, etc. It even did better then Hyundai's much larger Sonata and Xg350. Shocked? I was! Hyundai did a good job designing the safety of the Accent.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
While the Accent does quite well for the driver, and indeed Hyundai should be commended for offering side airbags with Head Protection as standard, keep in mind that the NHTSA does NOT take into account the HIC recorded on the dummy in assigning star ratings for the side impact test.
What this means:
The driver dummy of the Accent passes with flying colors (recording a very low HIC of 180, no doubt due to the head-protecting airbag). However, the measure of HIC 749 for the rear passenger indicates the possibility of injury that is not indicated in the 4 star rating.
Moral: Always look deeper into NHSTA side impact star rating, as HIC is not included in this mesaure. As a rule, where HICs creep toward 1000, the likelihood of severe or fatal injury increases significantly.
Consider this- back in the early 80s, shortly after NHTSA began its frontal impact program, but before the "star" ratings, 1000 was the threshold for whether a vehicle "passed" or "failed" for head injury.
(If you want an example of a vehicle with a good side impact score, but alarming HIC, check out the non-side curtained Accord 2 door, which scores 5 stars for rear passenger, but has an HIC in the 920s. Conversely, if you look at the 2003 non-curtained Camry 4 door, which received 3 stars for driver and 5 for rear passenger... both had HICs in the low 400s).
~alpha
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
With the Accord 2 Door's HIC in the 900s, it is still below 1000, so there is no asterisk appended.
Just to drive my point home, there are a few SUVs that have 4 star ratings but the asterisk indicating that theres a high likelihood of head injury. Clearly, then, the star rating does not reflect the HIC.
One example (and I swear I'm not picking on Honda, its just the first one that I saw on the NHTSA webpage..) is the Honda Element.
http://www.nhtsa.org/NCAP/Cars/2385.html
I think it is VERY deceptive of NHTSA to misinform consumers in this way. How can a vehicle merit a high 4 or 5 star rating for side impact protection if it inflicts near fatal levels of injury to the head? HIC should be reflected in the star rating, not just in a note. Even so, as it stands, HIC is only reflected in a note when it surpasses 1000. What about cars that test with 999 HIC? They just get the star rating, without any notation, and consumers (who dont look a little further) are none the wiser, despite the fact that HIC is awfully high.
~alpha
PS- I certainly agree, Hyundai has set a good precedent by adding side iflatable protection standard on every model, including the 11K Accent.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
As to where I have been, my computer at home is still the same old dinosaur and I just got tired of fighting trying to get on line. I finally decided to try to get to Edmunds through the work computer and the stupid site would not recognize me at first.
Our local auto show is a week and a few days away and I am going again. The Aveo is definitely on my list of cars to take a look at. I definitely have some opinions on the car and I won't be afraid to share them later.
I am thinking about trading the Major in, but the leading candidate is a car that would not fit in this category. That being the Dodge SRT-4.
Well, got to scoot. See you later. Sorry for the rambling post.
Mazda3
BMW 1 Series (probably won't be there)
Mini Cooper
Dodge Neon SRT-4
Chevrolet Aveo
Scion Xa and Xb
I have not been as plugged in to the car world as I have been in the past so if anyone has recommendations as to a small car I should check out, let me know.
Time for me to run some errands.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
The BMW, the Mini, and the Neon are on the list because they could be replacements. The others are on the list because they are new.
I will take a look at the new Spectra because it is new, but it is not even remotely on the list of cars that may take the Echo's place.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Seriously though sorry to hear about the job loss and great choice in the field you are studying for. Health care will always be in demand.
If I replace the Echo, I am motivated by totally different factors than what drove me to choose the Echo in the first place.
Those on the possible replacement lists are on there because they are light years ahead of the Echo in terms of performance (Neon and Mini) or their maker has a great name (BMW 1 Series).
If I were to look at the rest of my overall list as replacements, I would be motivated by quality, probable dependability, fuel economy, decent performance, and looks. I really think the rest of the list would come up short against the Echo and that being the case, I would be motivated to keep the Echo.
As to your impending car search, what do you think of the Scion's? For instance, what about the Scion xA for you? A competent design AND a low price and that reputed Scion quality(I'm going out on a limb there a bit but you know that it's not by much, major, right? Toyota with a different badge, eh?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
The SVT would also have to overcome the negative feelings generated by the test drive I took of the Focus sedan.
And both Scions currently available are the Echo in different bodies. Not quite different enough and they come with the same engine as the Echo but with a greater weight for it to push around which means performance suffers.
As far as body style goes, I don't like that the gas tank is located on the passenger side. It seems much easier to me to fill up when the gas tank is on the driver's side.
Better gas mileage, better acceleration, $6500 cheaper, those are big issues. Of course, it probably won't be as reliable, and it doesn't have the xB's biggest selling point, it's looks, but I would definitely consider it if I was going to buy a car right now.
I'd really like to see a comparison between the Aveo, xB, xA, and whatever else is hanging out down there in the sub $15,000 5-door hatch category.
Actually the xB has slightly better fuel economy than the Aveo. The Aveo's numbers really aren't that great for such a small car; e.g. just a hair better than the larger Elantra and worse than Japanese compacts.
I think the sub-$15,000 hatch comparison would be very interesting. Depending on how you define "hatchback", there's the Aveo, Focus, Accent, Spectra, xA, xB, and Rio all under $15k before discounts/rebates, and a few more like the Matrix and Elantra just over $15k.
It's not very likely that they will see them here.