Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!





Fuel and Oil Additives

1353638404144

Comments

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 57,855
    Also an engine can have no ridge marks and be worn out anyway---worn bearings, worn oil rings, non-seating valves, worn valve guides, worn camshaft lobes. All a ridge line tells you is that the cylinder bore is not elliptical (egg-shaped).

    As for "reversing wear", that is scientifically impossible in an engine IMO. You can gum it up for a while and boost compression a bit but other than that, there's nothing in a can that replaces metal that I've aware of.

    Really all this is, is rather vague anecdotal evidence, which may have been sincerely passed onto you, but which is characteristically very unreliable and which proves....well....nothing at all. It's just a "story".

    Unless this product can be tested with a blind group (non-additive engines, run under same conditions) and verified by an agency outside of the people who make the product, then it is not above suspicion.

    I'm not surprised you're finding a challenge recruiting believers. There's no good evidence to support the claims being presented to us.

    But if you have independent scientifically rigorous testing results, fire away, I'll read 'em over.

    MODERATOR --Need help with anything? Click on my name!

    Share Your Vehicle Reviews Here

  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    To say that I'm extremely underwhelmed by your anecdotal claims is an understatement. If you want anybody to even half believe what you're claiming, you're going to have to take a bunch of engines that have long gone 'round the bend, tear them down, make dozens of measurements each, reassemble them with no changes, run them 100,000 miles, and then tear them down for a second set of measurements. Failing that, most folks with any education in the area of art called engine operation and wear will consider your product just another "Me too" brand of snake-oil.

    So, as Mr. Shiftright kind of suggested, please provide us with some scientific back-up to your anecdotal claims.

    Best regards,
    Shipo
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 57,855
    Here's a pretty good test...."pretty good" because it does indicate some testing problems that might skew the results....but in general I offer this as an example at least of the investment in time and energy it takes to come to some sort of scientific conclusion about engine wear.

    One reason the synthetics didn't produce more dramatic results was that the conditions were not the type where synthetic excels, that is extreme of climate and extremes of engine "work". Taxicabs pretty much putt around all day and bang into things at 40 mph or under. This isn't the Indy 500 or pipeline work in Alaska or the Mexican Carrera.

    Results?

    1. Changing oil at 3,000 miles isn't necessary

    2. Slick 50, STP Engine Treatment produced no discernible benefits.

    http://www.moneybluebook.com/articles/consumerreports.oilchange.php

    MODERATOR --Need help with anything? Click on my name!

    Share Your Vehicle Reviews Here

  • ex_tdierex_tdier Posts: 277
    Wow. Almost 1150 posts here...does anyone recall what the general consensus is?

    Additves are good or not?

    When should one change their oil, according to the dealer package specifications or the manual? Or even at 5,000 miles of city driving or 6 months, whichever occurs first?

    I recall that my dealer and different car dealers over the years does add a can of fuel additive to the tank at every one or two year service interval. This is standard and if you go "by the book", the manual typically says not to add any fuel or oil additives. When asked why they do it, the consensus always has been that the quality of fuel varies among gas stations, although the "baseline" is the same.

    I've tried the cheap Techron fuel additive and I haven't noticed an improvement but people swear on the effacy of the concentrated more expensive version. Racing enthusiasts and their mechanics only fill up with top tier fuel.

    Like someone mentioned a few posts back, there may be a benefit from adding fuel additives (finding which ones that actually work and won't gunk things up is the hard part) may help if you're using them on an ongoing basis.

    In any case, I think objective third party studies need to be done on fuel additives for vehicles.

    BTW, I didnt click on the link by Mr. Shiftright, in the event some of my questions were answered. ;)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 57,855
    Not too much hard data out there on fuel additives.

    Most of the posts seem to gather around three points:

    1. Total skepticism -- or, "under normal conditions with good fuel---NEVER NEEDED."

    2. The "placebo effect" --- or the anecdotal and subjective statement --"it feels better after I added it"

    3. confusion over causation vs. correlation ---- I added it and THEN my car ran better (question being---did it just clear itself up, or ???)

    MODERATOR --Need help with anything? Click on my name!

    Share Your Vehicle Reviews Here

  • niknmaxniknmax Posts: 5
    Thank you for all of your comments. I am sincere in seeking ways to approach the industry, but with neither the time nor capital to do a project like the NY Taxi's. Please know I am only telling you what I have seen. I the have a set of the actual bearings, roller lifters, piston assembly complete with bearing and rings. They each are repaired with a ceramic surface as I described in my earlier comments. Seems the process is a ferro silicate sintered surface triggered by a magnesium heat based on friction. Sounds complex, but I am looking at the results. Over $3 billion in worldwide sales and not a single claim of damage caused by the process.

    Measurable result - compression loss caused by cylinder wear. Might anyone be interested in taking an engine they have with compression loss and trying the process? It would be insured against damage.

    I am new to these types of forums, so if what I just offered is inappropriate. please tell me. I am just trying to be creative because I know what I am seeing is real.
    Nik
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 57,855
    Well that's an imaginative sales pitch but I don't believe one word of it myself. Having built many engines, it sounds like a preposterous theory.

    How would this mysterious ceramic know how much to build? And why would it not adhere to EVERY metal surface, instead of just pistons and bearings? Why wouldn't it build up my camshaft lobes or my timing chain?

    I'm sure there are no complaints of harm, because the additive is probably an inert substance.

    If this company can do billions in business, why can't they afford a clinical trial?

    I'm sorry but so little of what you are presenting here makes any sense. At least not so far. But you know, keep trying if you like. As soon as I hear something plausible I will raise my hand in your favor!

    :)

    Slick 50 -- lost lawsuit to FTC (false advertising)

    Duralube--lost lawsuit to FTC

    MotorUp -- lost lawsuit to FTC

    Fuelmax - lost lawsuit to FTC

    Zmax -- settled out of court

    Prolube-- busted by CR as useless, but not prohibited by FTC as yet

    MotorBond-- new kid on the block, jury's out. Haven't really dug into this one.

    MODERATOR --Need help with anything? Click on my name!

    Share Your Vehicle Reviews Here

  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    To be perfectly honest, your pitch sounds exactly like many-many others that I've been coming across for decades (literally). The pitch always goes something like this (optional constructions are underlined and separated by the "and/or" symbol "|"):

    ===============================================================================

    I've discovered this new [process | substance | preparation | additive] that can [eliminate engine wear | dramatically improve fuel economy | repair/reverse engine damage or engine wear]. I know that this sounds like many other products before it, but [I've seen it work with my own eyes | it has been proven to work by the {pick your favorite research facility, real or imagined} | our internal labs have run exhaustive tests and proven its efficacy]. As proof of how good our product is, we have sales of [some number] billions of dollars and we haven't even a single dissatisfied customer.

    If you are not completely satisfied with this product, please return it to the place of purchase for a complete refund.

    ===============================================================================

    Please understand, I'm not saying that your product doesn't do what you say it does. What I am saying is that you haven't said anything that would even remotely pique my interest, and that everything that you have said makes you sound like a snake-oil salesman (not saying that you are, just that you sound like one).

    As I said before, when you come back with some compelling and verifiable science (i.e. something way-WAY-WAY more compelling than "I've seen it work."), I'm sure that some of us, me included, will be more than happy to review your data.

    Best regards,
    Shipo
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 57,855
    I'd have to add, that speaking only for myself, I don't understand how it does what it claims to do.

    MODERATOR --Need help with anything? Click on my name!

    Share Your Vehicle Reviews Here

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 21,389
    >Seems the process is a ferro silicate sintered surface triggered by a magnesium heat based on friction.

    I have a little bit of science capability and this sounds like horse manure talk.

    2015 Cruze 2LT, 2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT

  • texasestexases Posts: 7,818
    >Seems the process is a ferro silicate sintered surface triggered by a magnesium heat based on friction.

    Same here. This doesn't even make sense, what is 'a magnesium heat'? Magnesium's an element, not a heat source...hope he's not saying he's BURNING magnesium...ouch!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 57,855
    burns pretty good actually.

    MODERATOR --Need help with anything? Click on my name!

    Share Your Vehicle Reviews Here

  • texasestexases Posts: 7,818
    Oh, yeah, I remember burning magnesium strips in my back yard. 12 years old, no eye protection, lucky I didn't blind myself! Don't think I'd like that going on in the crankcase :sick:
  • bassprobasspro Posts: 34
    Hi niknmax, I will be honest with you, that 3 billion in world wide sales is no biggie,but that has not been collaborated along with the other claims. I read several replies and posts. With that in mind and my years in the machinist world and just 52 years walking on this earth,it would be a great stretch figureativly and literally to get me where you are today. You may or may not be a nubie to oil additives and I hope you read well the many comments written here. I for one, am pretty open minded, but almost always like to see the studies to verify any claims.
    I can assure you,you will find limited "jump on the band wagon"
    here.
    I hope you invested little and all I can say is hit the trades day circuit and maybe you will find some believers without providing proof. Basspro
  • kurtamaxxxguykurtamaxxxguy Posts: 1,798
    I'm not trying to start a flame war or sell anything here, and searched this forum for comments on two oil additives (one backed by a mix of testimonials, and one mostly by engineering tests) before writing this.

    Motorsilk showed up at a 3/09 Oregon Green festival. They were handing out small green bottles of pleasant smelling cold metal treatment that looks like hand lotion.
    Yet there's a curious gap on their web site (everything stops at 2006). One report mentioned American Guardian warranty coverage includes their product, but web searches suggested American Guardian coverage is mediocre at best.
    Another report suggested MS reduced fuel consumption in diesel engines, but that the fuel consumption went right back up when it was no longer added (so much for the "permanent treatment" nonsense).

    ASL Camguard is indeed intended for airplanes and for that reason is limited wrt friction fighting. It's rumored they're working on an automotive version.

    There's another one out out there; tungsten disulphide.
    This near-diamond hard material, ground finely, supposedly coats engine parts permanently. A crude test of adding my nano-grade sample to a tube of 0-20 engine oil, then vigorously mixed, showed it settled out after 30 minutes.
    A former Exxon chemist told me no one to date has gotten it to work.

    Meanwhile, my oil's changed at 3000 miles, and the air filters regularly, Techron additive in the gas, and so far no problems.
    If there's something better out there I'd enjoy hearing about it.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Until further notice:

    additives = huile du serpent

    Is there something better than oil changes every 3,000 miles? Yup, synthetic oil changes every 10,000+ miles.

    Is there somethign better than pouring Techron in your tank? Yup, not pouring Techron in your tank.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 57,855
    Given that a modern engine will run quite happily to 175,000 -- 200,000 miles with just normal oil and normal oil filters and normal oil changes....AND that if you are operating outside the normal range of use, such as extremes of heat and cold, you can switch to synthetic oil and perhaps 7500 mile oil changes......AND that fleet vehicles (18 wheelers, construction, busses) run to the moon and back a couple of times in their lives with no "additives'......GIVEN ALL THAT....I fail to see what value these "additives" hold for anyone other than lining the pockets of the "inventors".

    Oh but you can "run your car to 500, 000 miles".....and who exactly does that? And what will this car LOOK LIKE in 500K miles after the door handles have fallen off and the suspension is probably cracked in ten places?

    Expensive additives seem to me to be the answer to the question that no one has asked. Or perhaps more accurately, the solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

    MODERATOR --Need help with anything? Click on my name!

    Share Your Vehicle Reviews Here

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 21,389
    > tungsten disulphide.
    This near-diamond hard material, ground finely, supposedly coats engine parts permanently.

    I read that and analytically think that since this is a very hard mineral, why would I put such an abrasive into my oil and drive with it grinding between the bearings and the rings and cylinder walls. Also I wonder how they train the particles to stick to the cylinder walls rather than the bearings to harden them. And how do they train the particles to stick onto the walls in low spots so they're not sticking out like sand on quartz sandpaper just waiting to abraid the opposing metal moving past it?

    I understand Techron having an impact on the fuel injectors if any of the long chain organics have formed on the moving parts. I use Techron. It's other people choice NOT to use Techron.

    Of course now that I use Shell's new fuel with nitrogen in it (is that like nitrogen used in tires is a discovery to save the world? :P ), I won't have to use Techron because the nitrogen will have cleaned up all the systems. Does anyone else see humor in their advertisements?

    2015 Cruze 2LT, 2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT

  • niknmaxniknmax Posts: 5
    I have played the additive game for years, keep looking for something that works. I tried this one back in 2007 and have stuck with it. It does something different. After seeing it work in over 100 engines, I am convinced. Tried it first in an old engine that had cylinder wear - low compression. It worked and the compression is solid to this day. My 2002 Escape has a lot more power and better fuel economy. Bottom line it works despite all the rest of the products that don't.

    At the risk of throwing this product to the forum, it is XADO www.xadowest.com .

    They got API certification of their oils treated with the active ingredient.

    Well, lets see what comes of it.

    Guys - I tried it - it works.

    Nik
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 57,855
    What do you mean exactly that it "works"? :) Unless you run it next to engines without the additive, and plot these two parallel engine tests over the course of the life of the engines, you have no proof of anything seems to me.

    As for having more "power", did you do a before and after dynamometer test? Or are you measuring with the seat of your pants?

    And besides, what are you trying to accomplish with additives that an engine with good oil and oil changes can't do by itself anyway?

    As an analogy, if I take your Magic Vitamins and live to be 80 and I feel "peppier", how can you ever know that I wouldn't have lived to be 80 anyway? Or that I'm just experiencing a placebo effect of spending $100 on your vitamins? Fact is, you can't. Also 80 is the natural lifespan.

    Same with engines. If Engine Group A, the ones with the additive,are run in the exact same way as Engine Group B, and Group A outlives Group B by an appreciable amount, then you have something.

    But these additive companies never do this test---because they would fail IMO. They'd fail to deliver more longevity and they'd fail on the dyno.

    MODERATOR --Need help with anything? Click on my name!

    Share Your Vehicle Reviews Here

  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    "Guys - I tried it - it works."

    Sorry, you have absolutely zero proof that it does anything of the sort. With this last post of yours, you've just crossed over into the official Snake Oil Salesman territory and as such, have completely discredited yourself and pretty much anything you'll post from now on. Your only potential salvation would be to post some verifiable science that backs up your ridiculous sounding claims, however, you've been asked to do that before and, so far at least, you've been unwilling or unable to cross that threshold. My bet is that you will continue to be regarded as a Snake Oil Salesman for as long as you continue to be a shill for the bilge water you're trying to sell to the unsuspecting folks on this site (and probably others as well).

    Best regards,
    Shipo
  • kurtamaxxxguykurtamaxxxguy Posts: 1,798
    Isn't Techron an additive for Chevron and Texaco fuels, intended to help remove deposits? Some reports suggest that its overuse might cause valve shafts to stick, so I only use it every 9000 miles or so.

    GM dealers sell Techron-shaped bottles of "GM fuel additive". Bottle Shape doesn't confirm Techron's in 'em, but OEM's often use same packaging and change the label, figuring the customer/user won't notice it.
    An oddity, if nothing else.

    As Mr. Shiftright points out, one really needs to see proper engineering tests of these products before determining whether they work. The sparse true dyno testing of these additives may be because the products fail, show no major advantage, or that mfr. can't afford dyno cost or time.
    (The one additive I use does have physical testing behind it.)

    BTW,
    XADO (pronounced Haa_do) appears to come from Russian and Chinese research, but...
    it claims successfully running treated engines (Audi, etc.) without oil.
    Haven't we've heard that claim before? :sick:

    As for these "permanent treatments" lasting 100,000 miles, tests show they usually stop working when the oil's changed (logical - there is nothing to replenish the coating!!). That means those of us with regular oil change intervals (3750 required for me) will be spending $25 - 100 every change for a modest improvement in fuel mileage. No way will that cost be recovered !!

    Caveat Emptor!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 57,855
    I could improve your fuel mileage by selling you straight 5W oil.

    Some additives have benefit....such as "water wetter" for one, or a strong fuel injection cleaner like BGK44. It's not all snake oil. But neither of the aforementioned additives make outrageous claims, either...and their effects (or lack therefore) are easily measurable. The water wetter's effect can be seen on your temperature gauge right away, and the BGK will either unclog the injector or it won't in a short period of driving.
    .
    But the snake oil stuff? The "effects" are vague, and difficult to measure quantitatively.

    MODERATOR --Need help with anything? Click on my name!

    Share Your Vehicle Reviews Here

  • kurtamaxxxguykurtamaxxxguy Posts: 1,798
    An interesting company, BG Products (it took a bit of playing with web search before BG 44K homed in on its parent)
    BK had a straightforward web presentation (no screaming testimonials, etc) of a number of gas / oil additives and synthetic oils. I've not used them. The lack of testimonial hype, though, is a good sign.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 21,389
    >The lack of hype, though, is a good sign.

    I found hype in their description:

    "BG Fuel Injection System Cleaner cuts through it like a hot knife through butter. Fuel deposits literally melt when exposed to the high pressure cleaning action of BG Fuel Injection System Cleaner pumping through the fuel rail."

    I was expecting a company that was all facts. I didn't realize they sold their products directly to public. I thought they only sold through the jobbers who push the product.

    They don't publish their chemical safety sheets on their site so it's hard to see if there's anything special about their fuel system cleaner.

    2015 Cruze 2LT, 2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT

  • zaken1zaken1 Posts: 556
    If you are still looking for an answer to your question about selecting an oil for your 4 stroke outboard motor; I can mention a few points.

    Regarding when to switch to a synthetic; it is commonly recognized by synthetic oil manufacturers that problems in piston ring seating can be created when a new motor is switched to an ester based synthetic (virtually every synthetic brand EXCEPT Mobil 1) before the break in process is fully completed. On an automobile, for this reason, I would not switch to an ester based synthetic before the motor had 5,000 miles on it (more or less 100 hours of operation). Some of the more subtle polishing of wearing parts takes that long; and it is often apparent in the increased power output of a motor as it approaches that mileage. Ester based synthetics are so slippery that they will defeat this beneficial wearing in process; which can result in the motor having less performance than it would if the break in was allowed to reach completion. And that would create a downside risk outweighing the amount of degradation which could be expected by using petroleum oil for the first 100 hours of use. However, Mobil 1 synthetic can be used from the very beginning of a break in. I have spoken with Mobil engineers about this; and they assured me that it is perfectly safe; they also said that Mobil 1 is used as factory fill for several high performance GM vehicles. After hearing that, I successfully broke in two new motors of my own on Mobil 1.

    In automotive applications, I share your preference for multigrade synthetic oils which have wide viscosity ranges. However, 4 stroke engines used in non automotive applications sometimes have significant differences in viscosity or additive requirements. For example; motorcycle engines use the engine oil to also lubricate their transmissions and wet clutches. For that reason, motorcycle oil must have additional anti-shear additives to deal with the shearing effect of operating among transmission gears. Wet clutches in motorcycles have been found to slip when used with oil that meets recent automotive specs; so motorcycle specific oil does not meet those specs. Harley Davidson air cooled engines run at much higher oil temperatures than automobiles; so they commonly use engine oil with a minimum viscosity of 50 weight; and will use oil as heavy as 70 weight in extremely hot weather.

    The fact that Mercury specifies 25W-40 oil concerns me. There must be a compelling reason that a major outboard manufacturer would go to the expense of designing and testing an oil for use in their engines; which has a very different viscosity than that used in automobiles. They state on their website that resistance to thermal breakdown is the major feature of this oil. So those engines apparently run with substantially higher oil temperatures than automobile engines.

    As a frequent participant in the Edmunds "answers" forum, I have seen many questions concerning piston slap in low mileage, late model Toyota engines; and have seen similar questions about excessively short engine life in US model Mazda RX-8 rotary engines. There is a clear answer to the Mazda RX-8 problem. It relates to the Federal EPA regulation which mandates the use of "energy conserving" oil viscosities in all new vehicles sold in the U.S. The 20W-50 oil which has traditionally been the preferred oil for Mazda rotaries is not an "energy conserving" (read: diluted) viscosity; so it is legally prohibited for dealer use in new U.S. RX-8 models. As a result, dealers are now using low viscosity oils in those cars; and the engines are frequently failing at around 50,000 miles. However, 20W-50 is still being used in RX-8 cars in Canada and Europe. And those cars are not having problems with short engine life.

    My experience with Toyota piston slap problems is that it also derives from using diluted energy conserving oil viscosities. And the low mileage modified V-8 in my Dodge van had the same problem; until I switched from Mobil 1 0W-30 (which is an energy conserving formula) to Mobil 1 0W-40 (which is a non-energy conserving, European formula). Switching to non-energy conserving oil viscosities has eliminated the piston slap in my van, and in every Toyota engine I have applied it to.

    For those reasons; I would recommend extreme caution about using low viscosity, energy conserving automotive oils in your new outboard.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    "Regarding when to switch to a synthetic; it is commonly recognized by synthetic oil manufacturers that problems in piston ring seating can be created when a new motor is switched to an ester based synthetic (virtually every synthetic brand EXCEPT Mobil 1) before the break in process is fully completed."

    Ummm, no. Not one synthetic oil from the likes of Mobil, Castrol, Pennzoil, Valvoline, Quaker State, Pentosin, Total, Amsoil, Shell... (I could go on but you get the point) is a Group V ester based oil. FWIW, the ONLY oils that I know of that are in fact Group V oils are those sold by Royal Purple and Redline.

    Best regards,
    Shipo
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 57,855
    Well I used BGK and it DID cut through it like a hot knife through butter! :P The lumpy idle was gone in about 1 hour of highway driving, never to return. (Mercedes 300 diesel).

    Dare say I was impressed. Of course, we were throwing a known product at a known problem and symptom. I was not looking to "improve fuel mileage" or "increase horsepower", all of which is nonsense coming out of a can.

    BGK is not a maintenance additive or a "promise" additive---it's meant to (hopefully) clean up really dirty injectors. It's no more magic than Drano. Drano doesn't promise to give you "a cleaner brighter face every time you wash up" and "up to 30% less water usage" :P

    It's promises to clean your drain, period.

    MODERATOR --Need help with anything? Click on my name!

    Share Your Vehicle Reviews Here

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 21,389
    >about 1 hour of highway driving,

    Did you use the direct cleaner setup for injectors or did you put it into the fuel?

    The usual advertisement I hear for BG is from a car repair shop where they use their injector cleaner pump and run the car off the additive directly to clean the injectors. I always had the impression BG wasn't sold over the counter.

    >The lumpy idle was gone

    That's the same as my experience with Techron fuel system cleaner when I used it a couple of times and the idle had changed character.

    2015 Cruze 2LT, 2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 57,855
    I double-dosed it with a near empty fuel tank and drove the hell out of the car. I got it from a shop, not a store. It wasn't cheap to buy either.

    MODERATOR --Need help with anything? Click on my name!

    Share Your Vehicle Reviews Here

Sign In or Register to comment.