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Volkswagen Phaeton



  • peteri44peteri44 Posts: 15
    Thanks for the response. The reason I had a $66K target is that the dealer was offering a NEW base V8 for $59,000 (they added the GGTAX of $1300 to make it a $68250 vehicle) as an "internet" special. I figured $59/68 should equal $66/74K, This is the biggest VW dealer in Chicagoland and they have over a dozen Phaetons among their 3 shops.
  • vwguildvwguild Posts: 1,620
    I would bet that $59,000 was a 2004...
  • I went through much the same exercise last year and went with an 04 lease with 15k miles. You have identified the right question on buying, and no offense to any current "owners" but I could not find enough good reasons to own out right. Current sales stink, no other way to describe them, and that does not say a lot for your resale value even if they are still making them in 5 years. I sure hope they are but the risk/return trade off to pocket a few extra bucks at the end of everything on buy vs lease (in the Edmunds approach) requires you have have a pretty accurate handle on the residual value that is "real" in the market place from a person who will buy it from you used, not what a dealer is obligated to value it at lease end. In short, lease! Don't take the lease as offered, negotiate, (also as per the Edmunds approach) it worked for me and really knocked down the monthly.

    By the way, I love the car. It ain't perfect, has a goofy lag in transmission in normal Drive mode, which goes away at the trade off of some smoothness in Sport, but it is a great car.
  • vwguildvwguild Posts: 1,620
    99% of all automobiles are depreciating assets...

    Sales are down for ALL VW carlines due to poor Marketing & Ad Support...

    Use the Tip mode and you will not experience any lag at all...
  • vwguild, you are always helpful and with no doubt a true expert on VW and the Phaeton, (I would appreciate your insight on my last post re tire pressure) but in response to your three answers to my post above -

    You state: 99% of all automobiles are depreciating assets...

    Of course they are, but my point in response to a potential buyers post is that the resale on a Phaeton in a true market may be a lot worse than the implied resale used in a lease calculation. As you surely know, a pre-set depreciation percent and the associated residual value set in a lease may have no relation to the real life experience in 3 to 5 years when you try to sell what you bought. True, the owner may hold on to the car forever, but in comparing lease vs buy you need to carry out this calculation as part of the value comparison. Real life hurts the "buy" calculation in my opinion.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------
    You say: Sales are down for ALL VW carlines due to poor Marketing & Ad Support...

    Since I believe you work for a dealer, I am sure you have this right. But the facts are what they are and have a major impact of the real market value of the car now and in the future. Sales may be down for ALL VW carlines, but they have been a disaster for the Phaeton from the get go. People aren't buying them on the show room floor, why will they rush to want to buy a used one in the future? This reluctance cetainly has an impact on what a dealer is willing to negotiate as a price for both an outright purchase and a lease. I mentioned it to make the point that the advantage is in the buyers court on this car no matter which way they go.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------
    You say: Use the Tip mode and you will not experience any lag at all...

    Now here I have to take issue with you. True, Tip mode fixes it, but it shouldn't have to be "fixed" in the first place. As you may have noticed from my name, we have traded notes on this before. It is still the biggest, and I would state as a matter of plain fact, the most disappointing aspect of this high end car. I am at about 10k miles and it is just as bad as the day I took it home. The normal automatic Drive mode ought to provide a sweet ride as is the case with every other competitive high-end offering, including the A8. I have three friends that own them (hint, I am one of the four guys profiled in the recent VW owners magazine as the "Phateon Phoresome" so I have a users group to compare notes with). VW has either a bug in the transmission software or simply programmed it to try to get to 6th gear in the fastest possible time. It makes for a lousy ride in Drive. It is only addressed by Sport or Tip. Sport burns gas, holds you in 3rd or 4th at speeds where it is annoying to listen to the engine whine, and to have to self select your gear, regardless of how much fun it can be occasionally, it is a heck of a price to pay to fix a poorly designed transmission. Lots of fun doing that in traffic sipping coffee!

    But, I still love the car!! Really. I just think leasing is a smarter move until the market sees this car as a better value.
  • peteri44peteri44 Posts: 15
    You (& vw guild) have been helpful. I've had it with leasing, mainly because I seldom drive a car to term, which puts in the scenario I'm in now. The Audi A6 is a fine car, but not one I want to be in for 2 hours a day. Living in Chicago, AWD or 4WD is attractive, even though it's only 10-15 days a year we really need it (last year, even less).
    The only 4 cars I'm considering are the Phaeton, A8 (or A8L), CLS500 or LS430. I think for resale, the order would be reverse of the listing above. In order of price, the LS 430 would be cheapest (they have the most margin to play with), followed by the VW, Audi and MB (the CLS is new, hot and in demand).
    The LS is the safe bet (reliability/residual) and the MB is the most attractive, but probably the least practical as it's basically a 4 seater without much more room that my A6. The Audi residual sucks, too. My A6 2.7 S Line stickered for $49K last year. All the trade valuators are calling for $31K 13 months later, impacted by a new model in 05. Still love the Phaeton but don't like the fact that used 04's are being listed for $49K, while similarly equipped A8L's are at $61K.
  • vwguildvwguild Posts: 1,620
    Leasing the PHAETON is the Only way to go, for now...It is the least expensive and terms are available from 12-60 Months...Best rates are up to 36 Months...
    0.00011...Equivilant APR = 0.264%. A taste over 25 Basis Points!!!

    Residual Values
    Terms of 24-36 Months...And I wouldn't worry about letting anyone else predict the future; this is the Value from Volkswagen Credit, and they are your bank...

    Regarding the Tranny...Your PHAETON tech can smooth this out for you, at least most of it...This is a VAGCOM computer adjustment...

    And, finally...PHAETON sales are weak here in the US...We market worldwide.
    In 2004 we met 80% of our target...right around 2000 units...This year that target is 1000...As I mentioned before, Marketing & Advertising $$$ are key here. Just spend one night from 8-11:300 watching network TV and see who is spending the BIG BUCKS...It certainly is not VWOA...And this problem was specifically addressed this past weekend in Germany.

    From my own experience, and I sold more PHAETONs last year than anyone else in the Western Region of the US, the PHAETON customer is more concerned with Service than Price...And that is what they get from me...Great Technicians so the PDI is done thoroughly & expertly, and I personally road test each one before delivery. After that the customer never comes back to Dealership except to say Hi!, or bring a friend...They never come back for Service/Maintenance; we go to them...
  • paldipaldi Posts: 210
    "Still love the Phaeton but don't like the fact that used 04's are being listed for $49K, while similarly equipped A8L's are at $61K."

    That's the way to go - buy a used one for $10-$15 less than an A8L.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,343
    Test drive a NEW A6. Not to suggest anything against the Phaeton. No no no.

    But for the money, please test both the VW and the Audi A6. I have had over the years both (I had the A8, too).

    My new A6 3.2 is hardly a hot rod -- so if you have the where with all to afford -- look at both the A6 4.2 and the Phaeton.

    Either one will be a treat. The Phaeton certainly will be MORE lux -- but the A6 with the same 4.2 might be more fun.

    If that matters.
  • peteri44peteri44 Posts: 15
    $5000 down, $962/month, 36 mos/ 12,000 miles for a $79,000 V8 4 seater Phaeton. I get a tax break trading in the A6.
  • vwguildvwguild Posts: 1,620
    Too Much...And Never put $$$ into a Cap Reduction unless you are one of a group of partners...Law, CPAs, MDs, and you have all mutually agreed on a max.
    monthly payment...
  • paldipaldi Posts: 210
    The VW Dealer near me in Devon PA has a 2005 loaded 4 seater for $795/month with about $2,500 cap reduction. Don't recall if it was 15k or 10k. They want to move the car. Antibes blue over dark blue interior.
  • Couldn't agree more with vwguild, never, ever put money in to a cap cost reduction. It is a gimic to lower the monthly cost ... with your money. What's the point!

    Better to say take it off (or put it back on to be correct) to the selling price up front an recalc the lease. Divide the cap cost by the number of months and compare it to the monthly price with out a cap cost, and you will know what it is a "saving you", which ain't much, and you get to keep your money.

    Now, ready for the biggest reason you don't want a cap cost, let alone one in the multiple thousands of dollars range?? Cause it is not covered if you total the car. Any money you put down as cap cost will be ignored by your insurance company if you have a total loss. You are only insured for the amount less the cap cost. ie, the amount you are leasing. Can you spell GAP. and no, it's not covered by GAP insurance.

    The big message though is this: know how to calculate a lease using paper and a simple calculator before you start messing with the dealers finance guy. It is amazing how quickly the landscape evens out when they know you know the factors in a lease and how they work. It is really pretty easy to do. Good luck.
  • vwguildvwguild Posts: 1,620
    And just as an add on...A "Cap Reduction" is really nothing more than monthly payments made in advance, and in California and I guess elsewhere, subject to the same taxation. For example, out here if you do a $5000.00 Cap Reduction, there is an additional $412.50 sales tax liability @ 8.25%.

    One good up front thing to do though is to get the "Wear & Tear" Warranty from JM& A the VW Warranty folks. This is Lease specific and covers the Leasee for up to $5000.00 and 1000 over miles @ $.20 a mile. All inclusive, including tires.
  • peteri44peteri44 Posts: 15
    OK--I read you guys loud and clear. Thanks. NO CAP contribution from me. Now, In Illinois, on leases we're taxed on the purchase price not the monthly payment. If I settle out of the Audi and trade it and they net down the $79K Phaeton to, let's say, $73000, I'd owe $2500 in sales tax. If I pay that up front, with nothing else, where should I be on a 3 yr/50,000 mile lease? Thanks in advance for the advice.
  • corralcorral Posts: 58
    I was in for more repairs with my car again yesterday and noticed some changes to the 2005 phaeton. The car had different wheels, and a passengers side airbag light above the miror. What other changes do these cars have??? The sales lady claimed it had dvd navigation but the car was having electical problems and could not start even when jumped.
  • vwguildvwguild Posts: 1,620
    I think that a more reasonable target on this PHAETON will be a bit higher than you have indicated here. I say this because when we sell a PHAETON the customer gets a lot more than just the car....Service...See my previous post regarding this. Additionally, these are not automobiles that are held in inventory and easily replaced...

    Check to see what the stores policy is After the Sale...

    A 36 month Lease would normally max out at 45,000 miles and not 50,000,
    although you can prepay miles...
  • riccoricco Posts: 6
    The reason people pay cash; don't want any payments and don't want to be tied down to a car. If you buy "right" your depreciation is reduced period.
  • paldipaldi Posts: 210
    Full wood on the center console, not just around the gear shifter.
  • rjlaerorjlaero Posts: 659
    The sweet deals on the Phaeton's are gone. It was hard to pass up $599 a month lease deals with not a lot of money down on the last 04's. But @ 800 a month, it makes going with The Audi A8 or even 4.2 A6 a bit more appealing.

    The resale on Audi A8's has gone up quite a bit since they redesigned the cars back in 2004. 04's on Ebay are going for 60 grand or so. But when you're spending 50k on a used car, finance rates come into play. A brand new 55k A6 4.2 quattro @ 2.9% is not that much more that a used 50k 04 Phateon @ 5.5%.

    I'd rather have a new A6 4.2 Quattro that a used Phaeton. The A6 might be tad smaller inside that the Phaeton, but I think it's a better looking car, inside and out.
  • peteri44peteri44 Posts: 15
    Took my A6 in for service and couln't get a straight answer on an A8 lease. Went down the block to a VW dealer and made what I thought was a great deal. I found a Cairo Gray 5 passenger with cold/tech/upgaded stereo/myrtle wood, a $78K+ car. The dealer had three cars, a white with similar equipment and a base gray. I'm paying the taxes up front (less the tax offset for the A6) and the quote is $699/ 36 months and 15,000 miles a year--no cap cost reduction.

    That's at leasr $300/month less than any A8 quote I got and even less than what new A6's are quoted at. I put a deposit down. The dealer said the purchase price is $500 over invoice and he's got a $4500 subsidy from the factory.
  • vwguildvwguild Posts: 1,620
    Personally...I'd go with the lease; at the end of the day you will have better options, and I might go for the White...VERY unusual to find one...What color is the Leather? PIX???
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,343
    My one week old A6 3.2 with a $53,276 MSRP and NO upfront money (just the first month's payment and a plate fee (to move the plates from my 2003 allroad to my new Audi)) is $669 36 months and 15k miles per year.

    I said mine has the 3.2.

    For $699/mo and the terms you cited, the Phaeton would be a great deal. There is a white one at the dealership near my house and it is the best looking Phaeton I've ever seen. Even though I am an Audi fan, I also admire the VW's (the Phaeton and upcoming Passat in particular). WOW, if you can get this deal -- take it (of course I assume no matter how much you pay or what state or city you buy it in, that the deal includes 100% free maintenance just like the Audi's, eh?)

    You would be at $30 per month more than I am with that SWEEEEEET V8.

    Some might argue the Audi is "the better car" -- perhaps it is -- but it isn't that kinda money better, no way.

    Good for you. When do you get it? And, are you getting the white one?

    This car is "brilliant" in white. And, ditto the "what color is the interior?" question.
  • pji44pji44 Posts: 12
    I get the car at the end of this month. I live in a rural area and I have to travel down a 1/4 mile sand and gravel road to get to my property. Needless to say, the night blue pearl A6 is never clean. I can't imagine what the white would look like. I'm going with the Cairo Gray (almost a taupe) with the anthracite interior.

    The deal does include scheduled maintenance 4/50 and concierge service (pick up and drop off) for service. I believe the car has about every option offered. I love the new A8/A8L and the 06's with the new nose hit the Chicago area the end of this month. However, I don't love them $300- $450 a month more than the Phaeton, which, although not as athletic, has many more features if you can live without bluetooth and satellite radio.
  • italia233italia233 Posts: 7
    Hi guys and gals. I'm new to the forum. I have been actively browsing the forum for about a month or so and have found it quite informative during my research for a new car lease that I will be getting into sometime this month. I went down to my local vw dealer to play some hardball and see what kind of deal I could get on a new phaeton since it seems they have some very enticing deals for a car that is downright beautiful and expensive. Here is the deal I got, 2005 v8 phaeton 4 seater with the 7650 4 seater upgrade package, tech package, 270 watt stereo package, keyless access, and walnut wood. Total purchase price at first was around 80k, When I left the dealership I had a written agreement for $74,766 out the door. $5k down and 795 per month with 12 thousand miles per year. It seems like a good deal to me and I'm seriously considering it but I would like some expert advice since I'm not familiar with vw pricing at all. I'm also looking at the mb e500 or any similiar car with a 600-800 a month payment with 5k or less down on a lease but from what I understand I will not be able to touch a deal like this on any other high end auto in the same caliber as the phaeton which in my eyes is such a beautiful car not to mention I have only seen one in my area and it was a sweet w12. I await all of your wisdom. Have a nice day.
  • vwguildvwguild Posts: 1,620
    For what it is worth...The White car will be much more forgiving than the Cairo Grey when it comes to looking clean...Don't know if that matters to you or not, but only because you bring it up...White paint on a car is one of those mysteries of life...looks clean even when dirty...
  • pji44pji44 Posts: 12
    My gravel road doesn't kick up the normal "charcoal- colored dust." It's a sandy mixture that almost looks yellow. It absolutely looks horrid on dark blue. I would think either the Cairo Gray or Campanella White would be better. I'll go back over the weekend and give the white one a closer look ( I don't think they're going anywhere). The white one still had the protective white paper over the hood/ trunk lid. I may ask the dealer to see what's in Chicago's inventory re: color combos, although I have no problem with the Cairo Gray.
  • vwguildvwguild Posts: 1,620
    Not being critical of Cairo Grey...I love the color...It is just that the
    White is pure low maintenance...
  • italia233italia233 Posts: 7
    Come on guys. Anybody got a little help for me. Thanx in advance.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    You might want to also post in Lease Questions - Ask Here. Let us know what you find out.

    Meanwhile, maybe someone here can offer some thoughts as well.
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