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Sports Wagons - The wave of the future?

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Comments

  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    They should have called it the Dodge Testoterone. That's an incredible male bias.

    I wonder about the 300C.

    Yeah, could you find out what % are Hemis?

    -juice
  • edunnettedunnett Posts: 553
    I blew away some guy in a spanking new Chrysler 300 today in my XT. He wasn't even TRYING. That's soooo disappointing.
    e
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Keep in mind most of those will not have the Hemi, though you could prolly take one even if it did. ;-)

    C&D's XT was actually quicker in the 1/4 mile than the 300C, and the Magnum is heavier.

    -juice
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 25,794
    months before production catches up? guess i should tell that to the dealer I drove past the other day who had a line of them tucked in with the Rams. ;)

    '18 BMW 330xi; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '18 BMW X2. 47-car history and counting!

  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I'm sure that demand is regional. You'll see them sitting in lots in import-dominated and snowy regions (until 4Matic arrives), but in Detroit and Texas I bet they sell plenty.

    -juice
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 25,794
    oh, of course, like all car sales, its regional. I just always find it confusing how one area can have backed up orders while another has them sitting around. Haven't these dealers ever heard of dealer trades? But, I'm not a dealer, so what do i know.

    plus, I've seen tons of 300s on the roads around here, so i'm kind of surprised at the lack of interest in the Magnum. But, hey, maybe I can get one at a deep discount, ya think?

    '18 BMW 330xi; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '18 BMW X2. 47-car history and counting!

  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    $500-1000 in rebates already, but I think you have to finance through them.

    The rebates tell me demand cannot possibly be *that* great.

    Dealers around here (MD near DC) have rows of them in their lots also.

    -juice
  • sebring95sebring95 Posts: 3,241
    Well there is a difference between customer orders and dealer orders. Standard inventory for a car dealership is to have 3X as many vehicles on your lot as you plan to sell during the month. I'll get the article next time I'm at myu office to get the exact specs.

    IIRC, the Brampton factory was designed to mainly build 300's with the Magnums picking up the slack. I think the magnum demand might be higher than they initially planned, hence they're trying to catch up. The factory has been working overtime according to previous reports.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I think the industray goal is a 60 day supply. Below that and you have a shortage, above that and you have....rebates! :o)

    Wonder how the 300 and Magnum are doing in that regard.

    -juice
  • sebring95sebring95 Posts: 3,241
    Found the article, Automotive news 7/26/04....

    "Dodge has nearly 40,000 orders for Magnums, Chrysler group spokesman Kevin McCormcik says..... Dodge is still filling the pipeline. Dealerships should reach allocated inventory levels in 45 to 60 days.....Dodge expects to build about 50 percent of Magnums with the Hemi engine....Dealers say they want more 340hp Hemi equipped Magnum RT units that are selling at sticker price. Negotiated prices below sticker are the norm for the six-cylinder Magnum"

    I'm guessing that's what is sitting on the lots in larger quantities.

    Production numbers show 67,402 300's and 24,917 Magnums produced through 7/24/04.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Cool, thanks.

    50 percent Hemi, wow, that's a big portion. Aren't there 3 engines options in total?

    Read yesterday that there will be an even hotter SRT version of the Magnum and 300, that'll be interesting to see. Wonder if they'll offer manual trannies?

    -juice
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,726
    about having a 6-speed manual for the Charger next year, and won't that have basically the same powertrain as the SRT Magnum and 300? So I hope they have manuals for these two as well...

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I didn't like the sketches I saw of the coupe version of the 300. I like consistent styling, and it's blocky everywhere but rounded on the C pillar, and that breaks up any design continuity.

    -juice
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 25,794
    yeah, thanks for the info.

    you're right, i wasn't thinking of dealer orders as opposed to customer orders.

    yeah, dealers should turn over those hemis quick because if the manufacturer keeps up that kind of production pace, paying MSRP won't last for long at all, regardless of the engine.

    '18 BMW 330xi; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '18 BMW X2. 47-car history and counting!

  • beliasbelias Posts: 316
    This has been a very interesting discussion... pages and pages of posts of people discussing what the word "sport" means. PLEASE!! I thought this whole discussion was over about 15 years ago when golf was considered a sport. The definition doesn't matter... call it a cardboard wagon. I don't think anybody cares... it isn't as if we buy our vehicles this way. I'm not going to go to the Dodge dealership, test drive it, price it out, and then tell the sales guy, "Woah there! Hey, you guys claim this is a sports wagon, and it clearly is not! What am I gonna tell my wife? I just can't get it!"
    The word "sport" is going to mean something different to everyone out there. Lets leave it at that.
    Now can somebody please try to provide a legitimate contender in the same price range for the Magnum? I would like to see actual viable contenders... not $50K to $80K luxury cars. I mean something that someone would actually consider buying for the same money. After all, that is the position most people are in. If money were not a serious consideration, then the list of comparisons would be too great.
  • buddhabmanbuddhabman Posts: 252
    My .02 - Sport implies some competency in athletic ism in terms of handling and performance. Sport to me implies a canyon carver or mountain runner vehicle.

    The company that created the Sport Wagon , Crossover SUV craze is Subaru. The 2005 Legacy GT Limited Wagon is a true contender against the Magnum RT Hemi Wagon. Test drive both, I think you will like both, but I think you will be more surprised at the power of the Legacy. The Magnum has some size that is nice for larger drivers. An SRT model Magnum or Sti Legacy wagon would be awesome.
  • krzysskrzyss Posts: 848
    "The company that created the Sport Wagon , Crossover SUV craze is Subaru."

    I belive that first Sport Wagon was Volvo 850 T5R and not Subaru. There were always high powered versions of MB E class and BMW 5 series.

    Krzys
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    A Subaru Legacy GT wagon, with a 5 speed, would probably outrun a Magnum Hemi off the line. Dyno reports show it's actually producing about 260hp and 270 lb-ft of torque, and it's a lot lighter than the Magnum.

    I guess you might include a Passat W8 wagon as well, but it's not as fast.

    On the budget side, a Mazda6 wagon, but torque will seem deficient compared to the Hemi, no doubt.

    And yes, both are coming, a Magnum SRT and a Subaru Legacy STi, can you imagine? I'd looove to compare those puppies!

    As a matter of fact, Mazda is building a hopped up 2.3l turbo Mazda6 to compete with the EVO and STi, though I think it'll be a sedan. What if they made a wagon version of that car?

    Subaru has had turbo Legacy wagons in overseas markets for a long time, not sure if they pre-dated the T5R (a cool ride).

    They actually sold a Legacy turbo wagon from 1990-1993 or so, 160hp back then and really good torque for its era.

    -juice
  • beliasbelias Posts: 316
    I really do enjoy the comparisons here, but I question why the word "sport" is such a focus of the discussion. I think it is a little pointless to be defining it anymore because apparently a Suburban is now a "Sport Utility Wagon", and it is anything but sporty.
    I know a lot of people that have bought a Subaru and they totally swear by them. They won't drive anything else. My real question is whether it will hold someone my size, I'm 6'5".
    Anybody know whether it is accommodating of someone my size?
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,726
    are you sure? There will be a Legacy STi wagon? That is awesome if so - I can't wait to see it. The regular turbo Legacy now has 250 hp, right? So I guess the STi will reach 300 or so?

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    6'5" is pretty tall, I'd sit in anything for a while before I jumped. You won't fit in my Miata for sure. I think my Forester has plenty of headroom and leg room is probably adequate for you.

    We have an '02 Legacy and for me it has room to spare, and I'm 6' even. Headroom is tighter than the Forester. We have a moonroof, you'd probably have to get one without that option (so avoid the Limited models).

    I'd say you'd fit in a Forester, maybe in an Outback without a moonroof. The Legacy and Outback wagons especially have raised roofs, so you get a little more headroom that similar cars tend to offer.

    I agree - they call the Outback the Sport Utility Wagon, but the Legacy GT is actually a LOT sporiter - bigger front brakes, quicker steering, shorter effective gearing, less weight, lower center of gravity, lower profile tires, and tighter suspension. Sportier in every way, basically.

    Nothing is for sure until we see it. ;-)

    Just rumors, but they seem to come up again and again (Legacy STi). I read about the Magnum SRT in a car mag.

    -juice
  • dbyangdbyang Posts: 6
    The title of this forum is "Sport Wagon", and I believe whoever created this forum had the intention of discussing "sport" Wagons. That is why there is so much talk about what sport means. It does mean different things to different people, but that is the whole point of the discussion. If everyone had the same idea of what 'sport' meant, there would be no need for this forum. If you read this forum, I think you should expect to see a lot of chat regarding 'sport'.
  • buddhabmanbuddhabman Posts: 252
    Granted Volvo always made nice wagons and the Volvo 850 T5R and T5's period are nice. Some might question it's true sport handling capabilities but it has a sporty enough powertrain. But the wagon crossover craze wasn't adopted by other manufatures until after the success of the Subaru Outback wagon. The potency of the compact and midsize segment was upped a notch with the success of the WRX.

    There are other euro wagons like the MB E-class, but those are truly upper-crust mommy haulers and not sport wagons. The BMW wagons are nice but not very fun. Now the Audi S4 Avant or S6 wagon is another story but the price point is very high.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    It's funny because AMC fans quiver when you call the Outback the first sport utility wagon. But Subaru fans counter and claim that Subaru had a raised 4WD wagon way, way back in 1972, that was truly the original.

    Outback made them popular. Absolutely.

    -juice
  • boaz47boaz47 Posts: 2,751
    The Volvo 1800 ES will always be the first sporty wagon to me. As the adds for the 1800 P used to say, think of it as a de-tuned Ferrari.
  • swedectswedect Posts: 4
    Buddhabman: I've had a (nice) T5R and driven S4 and S6 wagons, owned 2 M3's and have to say I disagree with your statement 'the BMW wagons are nice but not very fun'...
    Until the RS6 or the 545i wagons are released in the US, I settle for what I think is 'fun'.
    BR
    Peter
    540iT (sport package + 18" M-sport wheels w/ S-03's)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    That's a heck of a wagon.

    What's odd is that a 540 with the sport package pays a gas guzzler tax, while the less efficient X5 does not, because of the truck loophole.

    Lame. The 5er wagon is better in every way.

    -juice
  • tzoomertzoomer Posts: 18
    Holey Moley! WHO is calling the Chevy Suburban a "Sport Wagon"?!? GM? That's incredible. That is exactly why this forum is necessary, to cut through that sort of hype and misdirection.

    I've driven Suburbans in suspension-breaking rough country, but that's a lot of work, not sport. It was a truck fercryinoutloud, basically a panel truck with windows: truck frame, live axle, leaf springs, bias-belt lugged tires, high center of gravity, pair of rear doors. Not much fun to drive with numb loose steering, bouncy ride, and no grab handles, but sure could haul the goods and raise clouds of dust.

    Also, wagons are built on car chassis, right? So imagine that: the "wagon" idea is now so trendy that GM is trying to slip the Suburban elephant into our little play tent?! So there's our answer: sport wagons ARE the wave of the future ;-)

    And this forum provides useful opinions and evaluations on just what sort of "sport" that is!
  • andyman73andyman73 Posts: 368
    I just remembered an interesting experience. While in the Marines, I was stationed at NAS Willow Grove, Pa. I was fortunate enough to be part of the funeral detail. We had 2 vehicles available for this duty. Both were matching '97 Suburban 4X4s with "all" the goodies, including the 454 under the hood. Normal detail included 6-8 Marines. Not much of a wagon, but could find a little sport with the go pedal mashed through the floor board! Would leave twin repaving stripes when we got a little hurried! They were ordered that way because sometimes the Colonel would need to use them for official business.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    One thing to keep in mind is that as rebates arrive, so do price increases. I've tracked a few domestic cars and have seen about 6 price increases per year.

    In essence they make room for the rebates, but the price is not necessarily any lower than it was at the intro.

    A Magnum Hemi for under $30k is IMO a good value. I bet in 2 years it will have $3000 cash back - but it will also retail for about $33k.

    As with any new technology, it's probably wise to see how well it fares before taking the dive, that I agree with.

    -juice
This discussion has been closed.