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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans



  • Who -- at Infiniti -- said that Infiniti is happy where they are? I don't know any car company that would publically say something like that. Moreover, I think all car companies have financial objectives that they must meet or top management will be booted.

    Why would Infiniti be any "happier" than Cadillac or BMW or Audi, etc, at "staying where they are?"

  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,294
    mark - you are correct in the statements... that statement and the one about the G37 manual is aimed at me.. just jabs, no knockout blows because they are baseless and completly off topic-
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,681
    I took the "happy" comment that they, Infinti, conceded in trying to reign-in the sports luxury crown from BMW, from various publications, and are instead concerned only with sales.

    Maybe with the theory: who cares who wins the comparisons if our sales (profit margin) are superior. It could be argued that BMW is also following this philosophy.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 2,069
    Bill, no one said it outloud, however, look at what the G is on paper...

    G sits on Nissans FM platform, the engine sits behind the front wheels to help in balance, , a stout V6 engine makes 332HP, RWD, A pretty good formula to start with, not many sport sedans have this combo, but for some reason Infiniti falls short. Why is that? The chassis is stiff, but Infiniti for the last years just havn't been able to get the combo on, steering, ride, balance and feed back that BMW has been known for. To me it feels that Infiniti doesn't care really. I'm sure Nissan has taken apart many 3 series to see how all the parts work so well together.. Maybe in the next Gen Nissan will finally get all the parts to work together.
  • tdbmdtdbmd Posts: 20
    I love the S line Audis, but too much cash for me. I looked at them before settling on a lightly used CTS AWD.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,174
    Guess what, I don't think Infiniti is trying to clone a BMW 3. They want to compete in the class in their own way and probably don't give a hoot if they come in 2nd or not in the car mags as a long as their product is selling and is profitable. That doesn't mean they don't try to improve their product.

    IMO the G has some attributes that are better than the 3, nimble handling is not one of them. If that is the only thing you care about then the 3 is better for you. For many others the G is the actual better choice when they look at HP, off the line speed, technology, creature comforts, reliability, repair costs, bang for the buck, etc. I'm sure there are lovers of other makes like the ATS that makes it a compelling buy for them.

    BMW lovers seem to be so hung up on being number one that they get upset when anyone says that a vehicle even competes with them. You don't have to win the car mag writers comparos to compete in the class. Otherwise there would be just one brand as the rest would have folded up shop long ago.

  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 2,069
    edited October 2012
    Interesting, I never talked numbers at all, just facts, on paper, the G should be a better car overall, so far this is not true. So your comment about BMW lovers was out of line. I haven't swallowed the kool-aid BMW has a ways to go to be the car company it was once, however, some manufactures are still trying to play catch up, and they might not be able to reach it.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 2,069
    Reading these two magazine articles, that's the impression I took away about the Cadillac. The ATS will be a segment killer with a slushbox.
    Problem is there are people who do not believe in a sport sedan should have a slushbox, only a manual...
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 4,561
    You and what other five people? ;)

    Just check some reality - what couple of guys write on boards like those makes is not representative to the market sentiment. I see more manual transmissions in commercials than in dealerships. When I was on the market last year, I checked inventory of five BMW dealers around my house - at that time there was NOT A SINGLE MANUAL in 3-series inventory, sedan, coupe, or convertible. So get a grip, man. You, me, or whoever else thinks MT is a must, we don't matter. AT ALL. Zip, Nada. If it was up to the dealers, they would let the dogs on us for messing with their business.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,174
    Should have said "a lot of BMW lovers......" as obviously it is not all that are unaccepting of anybody even saying there may be another viable choice.
    Don't really know what you mean when you say that you "never talked numbers at all, just facts". Aren't numbers facts? Kind of cryptic. Lot of apparent opinions flying around here trying to be pawned off as facts though.

    See, when you say a lot of companies are trying to play catch up you are in affect saying that BMW is #1 in this class to all people and that every other manufacturer is trying to match BMW or "catch up". IMO they aren't. They are trying to compete in a "sports sedan class" profitably They reference the sportiness of the BMW driving experience as people are familiar with it but they don't try to copy the car itself.

    Don't know what you mean by "on paper the G should be better". What, is it not fast enough? Or luxurious enough? Or cost enough? Or have enough tech? Oh, maybe it's just the handling that isn't up to BMW standards? Could that be it? If so, that is just one measuremet. I'm not against BMW by any means. Just don't think they are the be all, end all.
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,294
    This is now interesting. Flight you better do some serious "fact" finding to properly respond.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    edited October 2012
    You and what other five people?

    I'll take one of those 5 slots. And I have plenty of friends and colleagues that would create a waiting list for the other four.

    You may be right that the percentage of so-called ELLPS with manual transmissions has been on the decline. But you are also wrong that BMW and others still don't want the "enthusiast minority" being enthusiastic about their cars. Even though it might be true, I don't expect them to change their marketing slogan to "the ultimate couch potato's semi-sporty semi-luxury machine".

    Granted...there are plenty of enthusiasts - and even professional drivers - that will claim the Porsche PDK or BMW DCT is their preference over a traditional manual. I test drove a manual Boxster S on Saturday and the sales manager indicated a 50/50 take rate on the PDK for the Boxster S at his dealership.

    HOWEVER...there isn't anyone I know that has the ability to use even half of the capability of an M3 or Boxster that wouldn't consider being forced to drive a slushbox automatic as equivalent to castration. Without anesthesia.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    edited October 2012
    Guess what, I don't think Infiniti is trying to clone a BMW 3.

    Sure about that?? It's been several years since I've been in an Infiniti dealership. But when I was last there, they seemed hell bent on trying to sell me on the virtues of the RWD G35 as being much more of a BMW 330i competitor than the FWD TL I was considering at the time. I walked out with reprints from Road and Track, Motor Trend, etc.

    Interesting that I ended up with the TL. I made a conscious trade-off for several of the reasons you mentioned. Price, larger back seat (2 kids), reliability and maintenance concerns, etc. I got an OK performing sport sedan, but one that met my more basic transportation needs and do-dad preferences at the time. But looking back, I definitely think Infiniti had been marketing the G35 much more as a "BMW beater" than Acura ever did with the TL.

    The problem isn't necessarily that Infiniti doesn't quite have BMW beat in performance and driving dynamics. They are still WAY ahead of Lexus in that department. The problem becomes when their marketing department tries to sell attributes that their engineers don't deliver on. You don't hear a Lexus dealer claiming that an ES is a BMW 335i beater. Infiniti either needs to reposition themselves from a marketing perspective as different than BMW or have their engineers step it up and deliver the goods if they want to invite the comparison themselves.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 10,137
    tdbmd.....for years, we (GF and I) resisted Audis. Seems we could never get together with any of the local dealers (all 2 of them). It always seemed they either wouldn't deal on a car we liked. Or, they didn't have anything we liked and really weren't all that interested in finding something we'd want.

    Over the last 5-7 years, we had looked at an A4, and an A6. But, neither hit our sweet spot (although, I'd take an A6 over a BMW 5 or Mercedes E class).

    I had never even seen an Audi S series before a few months ago, outside of reading about them in the trade rags.

    I'm a BMW fan. Like many others, I feel they make some of the finest sports/luxury cars in the world. Some have tried (most recently, Cadillac and Infiniti). But, no other company had been able to really hit the nail on the head like BMW has done with their 3 Series.

    However, you get one all loaded up (like I like my cars), and you're staring at a $50K+ tab at the dealership. That has extended to the 3 with the 4 cyl motors these days. To me, tough pill to swallow.

    The GF and I had been looking for a car for her. I originally thought a 2012 BMW 328i with the former 6 cyl would have been perfect, especially given the deals available right before the F30 hit the streets.

    We gave Audi another shot. Actually found an S4 at a local dealership (by it wasn't listed on their inventory when I checked on line).

    We test drove it. With a 2011 BMW 335i coupe, I was stunned at how good the S4 is. As "MarkinCincinnati" stated previously, the entire S line are overall among the finest cars I've ever driven. That's pretty heady company given I've driven Boxters, 'Vettes, BMWs, and many other really good cars. GF agreed!

    Now, it was only a matter of finding one we wanted and getting down to a "deal". Was able to secure Audi supplier discount, but had to trave to Chicago to get it (5 hours away).

    Neither of us could be any more pleased with the car. Yes, it's about the price of a BMW 335i, but IMHO a much better car. That's saying something given I still love my 335i.
    2018 Acura TLX SH AWD ASpec
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,343
    edited October 2012
    Once upon a time, I was one of those "give me a stick shift or give me death" kind of folks. The result? I had to special order the cars (usually Audis) that I acquired -- finding a stick shift was very very difficult in 2003 (my last stick.) Any stick you could find was typically on the base car -- which never made sense to me.

    Of course, I was wrong. Those wanting manual transmissions, even as long ago as 2003 were looking for "purple squirrels" -- today we former purple squirrel seekers understand that stick shifts are basically not even blips on many, no, most car company's radar (sales wise). This is clearly aimed at 'mericans, but in my many travels to Europe, well, stick shifts are going the way of the dumb phone. Given a choice of a 6, 7, 8 or more speed clutchless auto, CVT auto or regular auto, most folks -- by far -- seek to go clutchless.

    I say we all better get over it and realize that stick shifts make for good TV commercials and perhaps make for good reading about -- for those of us with too many car magazine subscriptions, but overwhelmingly at least 97.5% of "us" (even those who have NO problem driving a stick) wouldn't even consider a stick and certainly wouldn't consider ordering one and waiting 12 weeks for it to arrive.

    A contemporary 8-speed "slush" is so much better than the 4,5 and even some 6 speed autos of the not-too-distant past most folks probably say "why bother" (with a stick shift)? The 7-speed DSG's are also wonderful and in most cases (if you believe the test reports) are able to equal and often better 6-speed manuals.

    Stick shifts make for good ad copy and for the 2.5% of us who might actually buy one, it is nice to know sticks aren't dead (yet). The truth of the matter -- for me -- is that I would rather spend time and treasure on a sport suspension package, sport seats, wheels and super sticky tires (even the Max Performance tires, tho, are rapidly becoming an endangered species here in the US where most folks don't swap wheels and tires for summer and winter duty.)

    The 10th largest BMW dealership (according to them, at least) is here in Cincinnati -- they have no manual transmission new cars on the lot. If you ask them, they say there is little use in floor planning them since they sit forever, until they are discounted so heavily that folks are willing to "settle" for a stipped-down base Bimmer.

    If you want to blame something for the stick's demise (besides ignorance and apathy -- and indifference), blame mobile smart-phones. You can't possibly drive a stick shift when you have both hands on the phone texting your little heart out, all the while steering with your knees.

    Hell, I'll go so far as to suggest that the self-driving car can't come soon enough for most folks.

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 4,561
    I basically agree and that's why I get one (stick) before it went, so I can say 20 years from now "I used to own a BMW with a stick shift" ;)

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,174
    It's been several years since I've been in an Infiniti dealership

    Wow, there's some real credibility speaking here. Yes, I'm sure that I don't think Infiniti is trying to clone a 3. Can't prove it that why I said "I think". I believe you may have marketing confused with reality. Everybody markets their cars to be this or that. Even, BMW with their crappy stop/start system and steering that is getting to be more vanilla every year. The BMW 328 is slow in straightline compared to a G but every BMW fanboy comes back and says "oh, but straightline speed means's the driving dynamics of the BMW that are so good". Ok, if one cares so much more about driving dynamics that speed than get a BMW. If one wants OK dynamics but also some great power get a G among other things considered. The standard TL is like a boat compared to the standard G. Now the sh-awd TL is great but is still huge compared to the G or the BMW 3. It's the size of the current 5 series.

    BTW, I would match Infiniti's reliability and maintenence costs against Acura anyday. I presently own an Acura and owned an Infiniti for 10 years until two weeks ago.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    edited October 2012
    BTW, I would match Infiniti's reliability and maintenence costs against Acura anyday. I presently own an Acura and owned an Infiniti for 10 years until two weeks ago.

    Wow, that's some real credibility (and loyalty) speaking here.

    I believe you may have marketing confused with reality. Everybody markets their cars to be this or that.

    I have no trouble distinguishing between marketing and reality. The fact is that when Infiniti and Lexus first came to the market, Lexus took aim at Mercedes and Infiniti took aim at BMW. No cars epitomized this more than the LS400 and Q45. As time went on, Lexus continued to send over cars that were luxurious, and well made, never-mind that they completely lacked a sporting soul. Infiniti tried to distinguish itself with performance. It has had marginal success.

    The problem comes from setting too high of market/customer expectations by comparing yourself to something you aren't. Look, for my age, I'm a pretty good baseball player. Maybe even very good by the standard that hardly anybody my age still has metal cleats and isn't afraid to stand in against a 30 year old pitcher that can still throw 80+. But I don't compare myself to Bryce Harper. More like Bob Uecker. That sets a reasonable expectation for my fan base (i.e. wfe and daughters) that, when I actually get a couple of hits and steal a couple of bases, they congratulate me. Rather than boo me when my throw from third to first ends up somewhere in the home team dugout.

    If you are going to talk the talk, you better be able to walk the walk.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,343
    edited October 2012
    My wife and I have had so many German cars, I do feel I can offer up a data point or two, rather than "just" an anecdote.

    Audis and BMW's (through 2009, at least) are breathtakingly expensive to have beyond their factory warranties. I say this even though I now would "risk" keeping one of these Germans beyond 50,000 miles.

    I would, however, start to get downright nervous (and twitchy) once my German car got beyond 60,000 or perhaps 65,000 miles.

    Not so with Acura's and Infiniti's.

    I must inject here that we have had 29 Audis, 3 BMW's and 3 VW's since the late 1970's and only two "Japanese" representatives -- a 2012 Acura TL Advance SH-AWD and a 2011 Infiniti FX35 AWD.

    Here is why I qualified my observations regarding the Acura and Infiniti: we've only had 2 of them and we have had both of them less than 2 years (each). For all I know, the Acura and Infiniti will blow up (expense wise) just like the Germans, post-50,000 miles. I doubt it and here's why.

    Every German car we've had is, "at birth," the best driving auto ever -- and then at 5,000, 10,000 and sometimes even 15,000 miles they get even better (the engine finally reaches its maximum efficiency apparently.) Yet, somewhere between 15,000 and 25,000 miles, the German car really needs a "tune up" just to keep its (or my) spirits lifted. What I mean by this is that the German cars, thus far in my experience, have been the best driving and performing cars ever, time after time. Yet, these high-strung darling's age so quickly, so noticably and they just "loose that lovin' feelin'" unless they are maintained by sacrificing so very much coin of the realm. In the case of the Audis and BMW's -- thankfully -- bumper to bumper maintenance for 50,000 miles masked what that man behind the curtain was doing to keep pumping up the Audi and/or BMW to approximately full strength.

    Put simply, the Germans show their age unless given lots of TLC ($).

    Conversely, my wife's FX with about 35,000 miles on it is showing virtually no visual wear and is also "feeling new" -- there was no need for a mini overhaul post 25,000 miles as was required on every German car we've ever had (to maintain that new car feeling.) My Acura, too, at 25,000 miles seems to deny any perceptable effects of the miles on it. Only the front rotors on the Acura (which felt way warped at 8,000 miles) give anything about its age away -- and the rotors, after three turnings are eligible to be replaced under warranty (I've had them turned twice, to no avail.)

    So, from my perch, looking down on the dozens of cars the missus and I have had since the '70's, I would say if you want great driving cars (temporarily great, that is) go German, and just realize they are the equivalent of being married to a super model -- they're high maintenance to keep up appearances.

    The Japanese cars aren't quite the "lookers" that the Germans are, but they are reliable and durable in ways, thus far, that seems to have eluded Germany's finest.

    Now, one final comment -- I would not hesitate to get another Audi. I do believe they are virtually if not literally as reliable as any of the competition. I also believe they are not even close to being as durable as these Premium Japanese cars are -- the Germans age so quickly and are oh so very expensive to "keep young." I don't know what secret sauce seems to prevent the Japanese cars from aging -- apparently, at least. Yet, it just seems like the old adage, you may have superior performance with high overall maintenance costs or reliability and durability with low overall maintenance costs, but not both.

    Here's the thing -- all of these cars (ELLPS) are far more capable performers than most of us are driviers; and, all of these cars (ELLPS) are reliable at least to 50,000 miles. What we seem to be facing -- today, at least -- a choice of driving a great car that dies young or driving a very good car that outlasts your affection for it.

    Maybe good really is the enemy of great.

    "Whenever an individual or a business decides that success has been attained, progress stops." - Thomas J. Watson of IBM

    My TL is a good car, no matter what you say! :P
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    I must inject here that we have had 29 Audis, 3 BMW's and 3 VW's since the late 1970's and only two "Japanese" representatives -- a 2012 Acura TL Advance SH-AWD and a 2011 Infiniti FX35 AWD.

    I certainly appreciate and respect your experience, but just how many of these cars have made it past 50-60k miles for you to make your durability judgements?? It appears that you have owned a significant percentage of the Audis sold in the US. And if my math is correct, the 37 vehicles you have owned since the late 70's suggests an average hold period of 2+/- years assuming that you only had 2 in your garage concurrently.

    That said, I don't dispute your conclusions. I definitely think the German cars have historically required a lot more "routine maintenance" to keep running up to snuff than the Japanese. I believe that is changing a bit. In both directions. My 2004 Acura TL has gone through 2 sets of brakes (including front rotors) in 65,000 miles (manual transmission = Brembo front brakes). My 1995 Maxima didn't have the front brake pads replaced until it hit 105k miles the rears at 125k miles and never needed rotors replaced when we gave it away at 15 years and 160k miles. By the same token, I believe the Germans have become a little less high maintenance over the past decade or so. My 911 did not call for it's first oil change until 2 years or 20,000 miles :surprise: They don't offer a maintenance plan, so this wasn't some cheapskate way of reducing their costs. Granted, when something breaks out of warranty, you can hand them a limb or two along with your IRA, but compared to the old days, the cars spend more time in your garage than your mechanics.

    P.S. Friend of mine back in the early 1980's owned an Audi Coupe. Sexy. I had a Datsun B210 GX at the time. Not sexy. I made him take me to dinner every time I had to drive him from suburban Phili to Wilmington to take his car in or pick it up for service. I put on 10 pounds in about 8 months before he ditched it.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 2,069
    Don't really know what you mean when you say that you "never talked numbers at all, just facts". Aren't numbers facts? Kind of cryptic. Lot of apparent opinions flying around here trying to be pawned off as facts though.
    I never posted #'s or stated which one was better when I posted the URL,you have taken what was in the video and turned it around like I have made a statement that one was better then other. Now, I did say, that C/D stated that the BMW was the overall winner, in fact, that is why C/D has always picked the 3 series as the winner, because of the over all feel, way it drives. I think you need to re-watch the last part of the video to hear what they say.

    Don't know what you mean by "on paper the G should be better".

    If you read a posting I posted you would have gotten this. The G's chassis is what Nissan call's the FM platform, where the engine sits behind the front wheels, this like the RX-8 makes for a better handling car, chassis is plenty stiff, RWD, weight in line, manual trans, hefty V6, however, Nissan for what every reason missed the mark on some points. Hopefully the next generation G all the short coming of the current G will be worked out.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 2,069
    Put simply, the Germans show their age unless given lots of TLC ($). Mark with 29 cars how many of then did you drive to 50 or 60K? Currently my 2005 330i has no rattles, both doors close with the same solid thud as when it was new. The engine continues to pull to red line without missing a beat. Oil changed every 5K miles, air filter cleaned at 5K, the only out of pocket expense really has been the after market equipment I bought for the car. So really not too sure what you mean by extra TLC? You what to know about TLC, own a British car, my father and I bought a 1957 TR3, NOW that car needed TLC....
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    Don't forget, though, that this also is a huge plus for Cadillac. Repairs are inexpensive (parts are actually less now than Toyota or Honda!) and they happen fairly infrequently compared to the European makes. Add in pretty decent incentives (incentives from Acura or Lexus??), and it's compelling.

    $32K for a CTS (actual price via Truecar on a 2012, which isn't as low as you can negotiate yourself, even) versus $40-45K or more for a 3 series (335i)... It certainly makes you wonder. The smart money is on the CTS and to simply ignore the ATS until you can get one next fall in the 27-28K range after incentives.

    As for my father's CTS, in two years it's had zero warranty repairs or issues with it. Nothing squeeks, rattles, or feels any different than the day he bought it. Quite a departure from his previous GM vehicles. You'd swear it was made by Totoya. But the engine is without a doubt made in Germany. It's exactly like having a BMW or Mercedes engine and a body that is made by Totoya - just without their appalling lack of styling.
  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 18,656
    Mark, your constant repetition of the erroneous idea that it is financially ruinous to own a German-made car is annoying but keep it up. As long as folks believe it there will be a constant supply of wonderful, lightly used BMWs and Audis for sale for 50% and less of the new price.

    This winter, for the third time, I bought a second-hand German car. I got an 80K miles BMW 330ciC for the MSRP cost of a loaded Ford Fiesta. I know from experience that 80K is barely break-in mileage for a Bimmer and I also know that nothing drives as nicely as a good RWD car.

    Drive on my friends.

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,294
    One thing they didn't miss was price- so lets factor in that- how much of a mark did it really miss-

    Boys price has to be factored in - hello- a 20% markup on a similar car is real money.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    edited October 2012
    As for my father's CTS, in two years it's had zero warranty repairs or issues with it. Nothing squeeks, rattles, or feels any different than the day he bought it. Quite a departure from his previous GM vehicles.

    Sorry, don't take this personally, but I have to chuckle a bit. First, markincincinnati offers his conclusion that German cars require a lot of TLC after owning 29 Audi's. And now you are ready to proclaim that your dad hit the jackpot with the CTS because it doesn't shake rattle and roll after two years - unlike his previous GM experience.

    I'm beginning to think I stumbled upon a forum on self mutilation. Wouldn't most people have said "enough is enough" after maybe 15 Audi's? Or one too many rattle box GM's. But no, let's go back for more abuse and hope that it's different this time around?? I do have to give you guys an A for persistence.

    But before you take the report card to McDonalds for a free Happy Meal, you might want to retest the doors of the CTS in another year or two. I know people - similar to Flight's experience - that have 6-8-10 year old BMW's and Mercedes with 100k+ miles that still have the new car look, sound and feel. I'm sorry to appear anti-GM, but I honestly can't say that I know anyone that speaks enthusiastically of how solid their 8 year old ___________ GM still feels.
  • Has anyone had a problem with the center console buttons? When I drive at night, the volume and thermostat buttons do not light up and everything is pitch black? Is there a setting or way to illuminate them?
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 10,137
    The 7-speed DSG's are also wonderful and in most cases (if you believe the test reports) are able to equal and often better 6-speed manuals.

    Mark....I totally agree with your assessment. There was a time that anyone who wouldn't/couldn't drive a manual transmission, in my mind, should not be allowed on public roads, as they didn't really know how to drive.

    Now, as you state, as good as auto trans cars have become so good (particularly the 7 sp dual clutch DSG in Audis), that there's little hope that even someone who's really good with a manual trans could possibly out perform it.

    Because MPG is becoming more an more paramount, auto transmissions will capture that crown, too.

    Generally speaking, today's auto transmissions are simply better than their manual counterparts. I'm good with a manual trans car....I've tracked them both at zutox and 1/4 mile events. So, it takes quite a bit for me to admit those new auto transmissions are better. But, they are.
    2018 Acura TLX SH AWD ASpec
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,174
    Wow, that's some real credibility (and loyalty) speaking here

    I guess you insinuate that owning an Infiniti for ten years is really not that much credibility but I would counter that never owning one and not even being in a dealership(test drives) in years is much, much less credibility. As far as loyality goes, I would love to have another Infiniti but they just don't make the type and size of vehicle that I now want(not talking about a G here). It has nothing to do with with liking the brand. If they made a vehicle that was very similar to the Acura I just bought then I would have bought it in a heartbeat. Besides I also like to sample different brands from time to time. Never know what you're missing until you try it, right? Are you saying that I should be loyal to brand without fail? That would be pretty stupid IMO. No brands are that good or perfect by any means.

    People seem to take marketing and advertising too literally. It's just hype. The only customers who believe the hype and are dissappointed are the naive ones that believe all that crap in the first place. When a company says it is targeting something they are using it as benchmark. They are actually complimenting the known quantity by saying they are trying to be like it in many ways, not a carbon copy. In some ways they succeed and some they don't. BMW is not perfect either and especially is not the right car for many people. I pay cash and keep vehicles for at least 6-10 years. I shy away from cars that need a lot of expensive repairs and maint after the warranty is over because I just don't need the hassle long term. I can afford the repairs but I just don't want to deal with them. If I leased or traded every 3-4 years it would possibly be different.

    Congrats on being able to play baseball at your age whatever it is. Didn't quite get the connection to the discussion though unless you're constantly marketing yourself as a great baseball player. Has Infiniti been marketing itself as better than BMW? I don't believe so. They may market the G as an alternative to the BMW and that it is, an alternative....not a copy.
  • We can all chuckle a bit at folks (like me) who keep buying German cars and finding them the best driving, best performing, most grin inspiring cars ever -- only to find they require so much attention to keep at that level of gratification.

    But, there it is, out there for all to at least smile and nod knowingly.

    And, as I said, despite our considerable experience and the experiences of others both the pros and amateurs alike regarding the overall durability of these wunderkinds, many of us become hooked on German cars almost as if it is an addiction.

    The reason to repeat and repeat and repeat and lust after future repeat acquisitions of these German cars belies their sometimes dismal durability.

    I sit here watching an episode of Motor Week wherein the test du jour is of the 2013 Audi S4 and S5. After a totally favorable review, the last sentences goes: "we're not particularly impressed with Audi's reliability; but that wouldn't keep us from parking one in our garage."

    The hell of it is, these [German] cars are just the best to drive, but disappointing and expensive to keep much beyond 50K miles.

    I know you may think with the amount of turnover we've had in our German's that we "don't know nuttin' about birthin' no babies," however, I assure you that with about 3 dozen of them, our experiences might lend credence to our conclusions. If you've had one or two really reliable Bimmers or Mercs or Audis, great -- give us a full report after about 20 more.

    On the other hand, if you, like me, get hooked on the German car experience, feed your habit, you won't regret it assuming you place value on that certain je ne sais quoi only to be had in a German car.

    Like I said, my TL is a good car. It isn't exactly marrying material though.
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