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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans



  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 9,260
    I'll admit that larger behemoth vehicles like Minivans and SUV's benefit more from back up cameras.
    Toy '16 Audi TTS quattro AWD, Commuter '16 Kia Optima LX 1.6 Turbo FWD, Wife's '17 VW Golf All-Track SE 4-Motion AWD
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,294
    Benefit more maybe - but shouldn't it be standard equipment on all cars ? Honda accord has it standard, I know consumer reports wants it standard to all, seems like its more important than lane monitoring or even blindside system someone was hyping.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 11,395
    The biggest feature my Acura TSX had that my BMW 328xi doesn't is a backup camera. I miss it!

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD, 2015 Infiniti G37x Q40 AWD

  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,294
    Read an article this morning BMW is having issues getting oem parts to dealers because of a shortage on parts- this is tarnishing the brand overseas as customers with broken rigs can't get them fixed and BMW (overseas) not giving out loaners. I remember something similar happened to Audi / Vw as they had failing coils in the turbo 4 - huge lines to get anything done even oil changes at dealerships as a result.
  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 8,862
    The parts shortage was created by the implementation of a new supply chain logistics IT system that started in 2009. They are a year behind in implementing and it has affected their ability to manufacture parts on time. Unfortunately, once the switch is thrown, it's not easy to turn back.

    It reminds me of a company in my industry that suffered a fire at their main factory. They had plans of implementing a new manufacturing IT system around the same time. They rebuilt the factory and implemented the new system concurrently. Needless to say it took them close to a year to get things running smoothly.
  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 9,260
    but shouldn't it be standard equipment on all cars ?

    I absolutely don't think so, and would be 100% against that. 100% option availability is OK. Those that want to increase the weight (which reduces gas mileage by the way) and add cameras, computers, wiring, cabling, and monitors to their cars, by all means do so and pay for it.

    But it should not be forced upon those that don't want or need it.

    We are beginning to make cars so safe no one can afford to buy one anymore.
    Toy '16 Audi TTS quattro AWD, Commuter '16 Kia Optima LX 1.6 Turbo FWD, Wife's '17 VW Golf All-Track SE 4-Motion AWD
  • Sween- Are you going to swap the G35 for the Q?
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,294
    Yep you are right lets strip the abs and airbags out as well.

    A mainstream sedan that sells very well, is putting them as standard equipment - nuff said
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,294
    Will watch reviews and access pricing.
  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 9,260
    I find ABS and Airbags useful (although I've never had an airbag actually be used for me; knock on wood).

    ABS has been used countless times though; sometimes just for fun in an empty parking lot.

    The Accord does have backup camera as standard now, but the 2013 is a new feature-laden model from Honda.

    I actually considered the Accord Sport and the S4 lately. I could order the S4 without a backup camera, and did so. Not that the camera was the deciding factor, but I appreciated not being forced into it by Audi. Audi got my money; Honda didn't; nuff said.
    Toy '16 Audi TTS quattro AWD, Commuter '16 Kia Optima LX 1.6 Turbo FWD, Wife's '17 VW Golf All-Track SE 4-Motion AWD
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,294
    edited August 2013
    Not the best responce I crosses shopped the accord vs s4 - 2 cars which are 30 grand apart at the start. Congrats on the s4 but the counter wow really.
    Forced into a safety feature - did you also delete the seatbelt for the "weight savings? "

    "Audi got my money" hahah

    Best of luck- lets not back into anything yah hear.

    Nuf said....
  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 9,260
    Yes, they are nearly 30K apart; however I was cross shopping due to possibility of:

    1) keeping my souped up modified A3 for the track toy and beat it to death until it dies at some point, and buy something economical, reliable, and comfortable


    2) get a new car that can do it all (be tracked), and be a nice luxurious daily driver at the same time.

    While the Accord passed the daily driver test, it could not be tracked. Not even a 280 HP FWD version could legitimately be tracked. That didn't stop me from thinking about option 1 being a possible route to take though.

    The TL-SH-AWD Tech package has the back up cam, probably why it costs $3,500 for the Tech option that has some things I liked, but at that added price the S4 seemed like more bang for the buck to me. The TL-SH-AWD needed to be about $2K less with the tech package to steal a deal from me; not having a back up cam gets them partly there.
    Toy '16 Audi TTS quattro AWD, Commuter '16 Kia Optima LX 1.6 Turbo FWD, Wife's '17 VW Golf All-Track SE 4-Motion AWD
  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 9,260
    Are you really comparing a seat belt to a back up camera?

    The seat belt is in use every second you are in the car (or close to it). The back up camera only when you are in reverse.

    I'd say I spend less than 1% of my time in a car with the gear selector in reverse.
    Toy '16 Audi TTS quattro AWD, Commuter '16 Kia Optima LX 1.6 Turbo FWD, Wife's '17 VW Golf All-Track SE 4-Motion AWD
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,294
    You didn't pick up the sarcasm?

    The argument you present is very weak - I understand you not wanting to pay extra for ala cart options and "Audi has your money" but like I stated before the accord which can be had for less then 20 grand has it standard- no options - no money needed to add.(true car says you can get a manual sport for 21,6 btw) Sure some cost is passed to customer- "A camera adds $58 to $203 to the cost of a car or truck, depending on whether the vehicle already has a video display, according to a NHTSA study from 2010." The weight issue - really- how much we talking. 30lbs? Do you know there is legislation to have it mandatory on all new cars in the near future, so lucky you got the S4 this year.

    Better engage the quatro because you have a couple of wheels spinning.

    Nuff said

    Drive fast, take chances
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    "ABS has been used countless times though; sometimes just for fun in an empty parking lot."

    How do you have fun WITH anti-lock brakes? LOL...
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 5,156
    You didn't pick up the sarcasm?

    Just a comment - sarcasm doesn't always transmit very well to a text medium.
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,294
    Very true but "Forced into a safety feature - did you also delete the seatbelt for the "weight savings? "

    Delete seatbelt pretty clear where I was going
  • kmurkmur Posts: 36
    for when you are forced to valet park. Valet parkers are always backing cars into spaces, and in a massive hurry. Helps prevent all kinds of annoying bumper dings.

    I agree that it is nice to have it as an option rather than forced on you. I remember when you could order a car without power locks and windows.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,175
    Rear windows have gotten smaller and the rear decks much higher due to increased passenger safety regs for rear collision. This had made the view out the back window much harder to see short objects(kids, dogs, fire hydrants, etc). There are many kids killed each year due to people backing up vehicles hence the rear cameras. Many people are looking at them like they are just convenience features like power windows. They aren't, they are meant to save lives, not to preclude a "ding" to your bumper. Weight?? Probably less than a lb. once you've already got the big screen for your nav or radio. Stop eating fries for a week and you'll save that one pound a rear camera will cost you.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,681
    Stop eating fries for a week and you'll save that one pound a rear camera will cost you

    heh :)
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,175
    edited August 2013
    I include myself in the comment about eating fries.
  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 9,260
    Unless the camera is wireless, I bet there's way more than one pound involved in adding a camera.

    Saving lives? As one clever poster put it, I already have that feature, it's called looking through your windows and where you are going, and into your mirrors; being aware of your surroundings.

    What happens when someone with a back up camera kills a kid or dog because they back up into it? Just because there is a TV screen in the middle console doesn't mean I have to look at it.

    I'm sure it has already happened numerous times.

    Has anyone here ever actually used their back up cam, and after using their eyes (turning your head to look back), and then looked at the screen and seen something they missed?
    Toy '16 Audi TTS quattro AWD, Commuter '16 Kia Optima LX 1.6 Turbo FWD, Wife's '17 VW Golf All-Track SE 4-Motion AWD
  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 9,260
    edited August 2013
    $58 to $203 dollars in cost probably translates into $116 to $406 dollars in price.

    If you like it so much, why don't you offer to pay for it on all your neighbors and friends' cars?

    30lbs here, 30lbs there, soon you have 4,000 lb compact cars!
    Toy '16 Audi TTS quattro AWD, Commuter '16 Kia Optima LX 1.6 Turbo FWD, Wife's '17 VW Golf All-Track SE 4-Motion AWD
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,681
    I remember a few years ago, I think it was Mazda RX8, advertised their weight savings measures...such as drilled pedals.

    While they looked cool...I thought that those few ounces wouldn't help much...especially given the huge weight disparity between me and the 'average' person :)
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,175
    Yeah. low voltage wire weighs a lot. Are you for real? A camera and mounting probably weighs half a lb. and the wire another half a pound or so. Ok, maybe the whole thing weighs two lbs. You're right, that would like cut .000001 off your 0-60 time.

    As far as saving lives, yeah I think it can save lives. How many does it have to save before you would consider it? I have a p/u that I back out of my driveway and in my neighborhood I have a lot of rugrats running up and down the sidewalk I back through on their big wheels, etc. I check, double check and triplecheck all my mirrors and stop a couple of times when backing out. A rearview camera would make it a lot easier to see right down behind me. It would make it safer, easier and much quicker to back out of my driveway. I have a backup camera on my new Acura and it works great. Didn't care for it all that much at first but now that I've gotten use to using it I like it a lot. Do I rely on it entirely.....of course not. Your comments seem pretty extreme. And in answer to your last question. No, I haven't. Do you have any data that suggests this happens a lot?
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,681
    Just because there is a TV screen in the middle console doesn't mean I have to look at it.

    My wife has the backup camera and backed up into a Bentley Continental GT. I used to think the auto-braking system were really lame...but now see their usefulness.
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,294
    You have hit rock bottom with the responses. Sorry man, this has "leader ad" defeat written all over it- you should do a little research on the benefits of rear camera, no one is saying they take the place of common sense driver but as an aid to save lives they cannot be ignored. - and as of now no one will force you to have one- but time will come like seatbelts and airbags where they will be mandatory in the states on new cars.

    Drive fast, take chances.
  • igozoomzoomigozoomzoom Waleska, GeorgiaPosts: 801
    I traded in a 2007 Explorer on a 2012 Mazda CX-9 last year. The CX-9 came with a standard Rearview Backup Camera. The Explorer had Rear Park Assist (Sonar) that would beep when it deetected an obstacle and the frequency of the beeps would increase as you got closer to it.

    Initially, I thought the CX-9's camera would be useless. After nine months, I've discovered that it's actually DANGEROUS! If I'm looking at the display in the dash as I back up, I lose most/all peripheral vision to my left side and don't see oncoming vehicles. I just ignore it now and use my mirrors and look over my shoulder instead....

    Mazda added the Rear Backup Sensors and a feature called Rear Cross Traffic Alert to the the 2013 model. I bought my 2012 model barely a month before the 2013 was released....the story of my llife!

    The Rear Cross Traffic Alert is actually a very interesting and useful feature, IMO. Mazda was one of the first companies to install a Blind Spot Monitoring (BSM) system. It was introduced on the 2008 model on the high-end Grand Touring trim level. When I bought my 2012, I chose the Grand Touring because of the 20" wheels and chrome door handles (sad, but true) and it came with a lot of other features ranging from Blind Spot Monitoring to Rain-Sensing Wipers. At worst, I planned to turn off anything that I didn't like or annoyed me.

    The BSM, in particular, sounded ridiculous to me. I figured it was just a case of using technology for technology's sake and nothing more. After nine months and 13k miles living with it, I don't think I'll ever buy another vehicle without it!

    I've always thought that blind spots only existed because the vast majority of drivers have no idea how to properly adjust their mirrors. But it turns out that a ful-size CUV/SUV (such as my CX-9) can have hidden spots at the rear corners that I can't see no matter how my mirrors are adjusted. I don't think the BSM or any other techno feature should be trusted 100% and replace common sense and paying attention behind the wheel, but I now see that they can work in conjunction with those.

    In my CX-9, when a vehicle is detected by one of the cameras mounted under the rear bumper on both sides, a yellow warning symbol lights up in the top corner of the mirror on that side of the car. If I signal a lane change while a vehicle is detected, a loud series of warning beeps and flashing light on the instrument panel lets me know that someone is back there.

    Whenever I'm changing lanes, I always do a quick over the shoulder glance just to be certain that it's clear and the BSM doesn't change that. But even when I have no intention of changing lanes, I find it very useful to always know what's going all around me at all times. Those little yellow warning lights on the mirrors make sure that I always know who or what is around me and I recently discovered that having that knowledge can prevent a serious acccident!

    I was driving on I-75 North in Metro Atlanta a few weeks ago following a truck loaded with tree stumps and limbs. With no warning, one of those massive oak stumps tumbled right off the back of the truck and I was going 75mph just one hundred feet or so behind it. I reflexively swerved and avoided it, but swerved to the right rather than the left which woudl have my instinct. But I went to the right because 10-15 seconds earlier, I noticed the BSM warning light on my driver's side mirror in my peripheral vision. Without BSM, I would have went to the left and hit that vehicle!

    That experience gave me an ever higher level of appreciation for BSM. It also made me very thankful that I was driving a CX-9 instead of my previous Explorer or most new SUVs of similr size. I don't think anything else could have handled a high-speed emergency maneuver like that without losing control....Zoom, Zoom!

    Back to the Rear Cross Traffic Alert feature I mentioned earlier....the BSM cameras scan for oncomoing vehicles when the vehicle is in Reverse and alerts you if it detects anything. For backing out of blind parking spots, it's a god-send. I wish my 2012 had it.

    But there are many new 'safety' features showing up on new cars that are way 'over the top'! One of my favorites is on the 2014 Mazda6 known by the acronym FOW. FOW stands for Forward Obstruction Warning, which uses laser sensors mounted behind the front grille to scan the road ahead for obstacles (cars, people, debris) and alerts the driver if it detects something. Every car I've owned, starting way back with my '85 CRX has featured FOW also- it's called a WINDSHIELD!!! You look out of it and, if something is in your way, you stop or go around it....problem solved!

    Mazda takes it even further, though. If the FOW system doesn't think the driver has time to respond or no evasive action is taken based on the warning, the system will cut the throttle and apply full braking force automatically!

    If you need a car to do all of that for you, you're too dumb or too lazy to drive! The same goes for freakin' Rain-Sensing Wipers....
    2015.5 Volvo S60 T6 Drive-E Platinum, 2012 Mazda CX-9 GT
  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 18,746
    The same goes for freakin' Rain-Sensing Wipers

    I couldn't disagree more, it hardly ever rains at a steady pace and the rain sensor allows you to concentrate on driving instead of having to constantly diddle w the wiper speeds.

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • kmurkmur Posts: 36
    Kids are run over because the people backing up WERE NOT PAYING ATTENTION. Texting, putting on makeup, picking the nose, playing with the radio, what have you. What makes you think these people are going to be bothered to look at the backup camera?
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