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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 5,192

    A bit cruel, that article...it implies that the general public views the Cadillac CTS on the same status level as the Hyundai Genesis. I think the author is correct, but it's a bitter pill for GM I'm sure.

    Somehow Cadillac has to instill the prestige that the aging Escalade has with the SUV crowd back into the CTS.

    Sometimes the problem is that image is just tarnished. They're making pretty good cars, but the name says Old People Boats. Hard to shake that. And of course the franchise agreements the dealers have with GM pretty much constrain much flexiblity for GM. I would have said close down Caddy and start a differently-named luxury division, but probably not practical.

  • graphicguygraphicguy Edmunds Poster EmeritusPosts: 11,489
    "Aside from how poorly it holds its value over time, and the quality and detailing issues..../i>

    There's all you need to know right there. The CTS is plagued with quality faux pas. And, they don't come anywhere near the customer service levels of BMW, Benz, etc.

    They don't care enough about those issues to correct them, though. They'd rather revert back to "GM does no wrong" attitude that they had pre-bankruptcy. They've forgotten we dug them out of their hole and gone back to "business as usual."
    2018 Acura TLX 3.5 SH AWD A-SPEC
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,660
    edited October 2015
    Still would rather the Q50 over the ATS/CTS. But that's probable just me! ;)

    ATS YTD Sales = 18,839
    Q50 YTd Sales = 31,603
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 13,294
    I like the Q50 & I've even warmed up to the TLX in its V6 SH-AWD trim. Both cars offer tremendous bang for the buck which is very important in this category.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2015 Infiniti Q40 AWD, 2017 Honda Pilot Touring AWD

  • stickguystickguy Posts: 32,851
    I love the TLX, but in FWD 4 cyl form. great transmission.

    2019 Acura TLX A-spec 4 cyl. (mine), and 2013 Acura RDX AWD (wife's)

  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 10,903
    sweendogy said:

    $37k focus - as mentioned the golf r similar car - the subi sti ain't cheap and if you ever been in / driven one it's amazing track car but it's not a sudo lux csr. . Ford bringing this over is cool - prob won't sell many but it's great to see they are making the effort to excite.
    For that money I would go golf r - or better yet GTI with a cool 15k? To invest . Ha

    The $10-15K extra for the Golf R is worth it as compared to the GTI. As someone who threw thousands into a former A3, I should know. You get better brakes, better suspension, better drivetrain and tuning. Most importantly, many of the engine components are beefed up and forged; so you can still tune your Golf R safely to 350 HP +/- for very little money. Whereas running 300 or more HP on a regular GTI by matching the turbo in the Golf R works, but can start to take away your durability and reliability. Also, the R is 3rd generation Haldex AWD.
    '16 Audi TTS quattro 2.0T, '15 Audi A4 quattro 2.0T, '16 Kia Optima LX 1.6T
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,307
    @andres3 - all good points you make but who besides a real car nut would throw that kind of extra cash into a GTI to make it an sudo R. Not my point as the same could be said about the focus st vs new focus r. The enthusiast will pay the premium- but in doing so you stil get the basics of both a regular golf and focus - same with a3/s3. Some of that is not all bad - but for the regular guy who's looking to go fast and both be comfortable would be disappointed in the details . I test drove the stI years ago and the thing that turned me off wasn't the constant buzz coming from the exhaust it was the frameless Windows on the door- yes something that minute turned me off as it screamed econobox Impreza.
  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 10,903
    edited October 2015
    sweendogy said:

    @andres3 - all good points you make but who besides a real car nut would throw that kind of extra cash into a GTI to make it an sudo R. Not my point as the same could be said about the focus st vs new focus r. The enthusiast will pay the premium- but in doing so you stil get the basics of both a regular golf and focus - same with a3/s3. Some of that is not all bad - but for the regular guy who's looking to go fast and both be comfortable would be disappointed in the details . I test drove the stI years ago and the thing that turned me off wasn't the constant buzz coming from the exhaust it was the frameless Windows on the door- yes something that minute turned me off as it screamed econobox Impreza.

    I guess it all comes down to if you find the current generation GOLF an econobox or not. I found it to be quite well detailed and trimmed inside and out. The chassis is strong, tight, and light. All good things. I haven't test driven the Golf R yet; that's the next step. I'd bet money the rare flaws I found in the Mexican built Golfs/Sportwagens is non-existent in the German built R. Another big-time PLUS for the R in my book vs. other Golf's. That alone makes it not just "another" Golf to me.

    I will say the DSG in the TDI Sportwagen is lazy. I would bet more money it doesn't have the same programming in the R.

    As to what the Golf Sportwagen SE is missing vs. my S4:

    1) HP, quickness, and speed.
    2) Real Leather Interior (though I like the Pleather VW is using). R uses real leather seating surfaces.
    3) It is smaller; though more utility possibilities and flexibility with hatch design.
    4) Sportwagen doesn't have Audi Drive Adjustable settings for steering, exhaust, shifting, and other characteristics (comfort, auto, sport), but I think the R does.
    5) The hatch doesn't open on its own with the push of a remote button like the S4 trunk.
    6) Surprisingly, I think the Golf's do pretty much all have push-button start, rear-view cameras these days.
    7) No electronic Parking brake on the Wagon SE (big handle still); though the R might?

    I'm sure I might think of a couple other things, but this is all I can come up with for features right now.
    '16 Audi TTS quattro 2.0T, '15 Audi A4 quattro 2.0T, '16 Kia Optima LX 1.6T
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,343
    edited October 2015
    Here's another issue that Cadillac faces: The Auto Mall (AM).

    You can go to the AM and in the space of a couple hundred yards (feet in some cases) you can see the Cadillac dealer, the Lexus dealer, the Lincoln dealer and the Ford, KIA, Chrysler/Dodge, Hyundai and Honda dealers. So, you test the Cadillac, then a couple of minutes later be behind the wheel of a new Infiniti or Audi or BMW if you want.

    With the MSRP of the Cadillac so close to that of the Lexus or BMW, etc, and with the ability to almost literally test drive several brands on any given Saturday, Cadillac probably seems -- at this point -- to be overpriced or for whatever reason is undervalued.

    I just returned from a 4-day trade show in Las Vegas (at Caesars) and after the day's end I would walk down to the Forum Shops at Ceasars. I found several high-buck watch stores and one that carries many high-buck brands and some less expensive brands, too.

    Seeing these watches, I thought about the Cadillac as I looked at the Tissot watch collection and then the Movado watch collection after having looked at the Rolex and MontBlanc watches.

    Tissot makes some very nice watches that don't require a second mortgage -- I'd take a Tissot over a Seiko any day. But, once we get to, perhaps, over $1,500 to $2,000, Tissots just seem overpriced. At that price I can move to Movado, but once I get to over $2,000 to $2,500 for them, I start to think, Tag, MontBlanc or even Breitling despite the price jump. Somehow, the $4,995 MontBlanc, although expensive, doesn't seem as expensive as a $1,795 Tissot or $2,995 Movado. The Tags, too, can soar in price, but they don't actually seem out of line, even at $6,995 or higher.

    Cadillac, today, may be Movado, in some cases, however, it may be perceived as a high-end Tissot. For me, that means, if I'm going to pay THAT much for a Cadillac, I might as well get an Audi, BMW or Mercedes -- and if I am on a budget and want a bunch of stuff (high content), well a Genesis starts looking as good as the Cadillac and priced appropriately. Genesis is Tissot, but can make you believe you got the Movado.

    Cadillac today can't quite pull of making you believe you got the BMW -- other than the price you are asked to pay.

    I'm just not in the market for a $4,995 Tissot.

    The malls may be a great place to shop efficiently, but when Cadillac is in the lineup, it just seems -- at this juncture -- overpriced.

  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 25,932
    I'm obviously in the "undervalued" camp. Although I did get a significant discount on my CTS, which pushed the decision very far in Caddy's favor, I did compare to BMW and Jag (never made it to the Benz dealer) and, since I value performance, preferred the Caddy. Even if it was the same cost, I would have thought the CTS the better car, although it is possible the steeper depreciation would have swayed me if not for the discount.

    '18 BMW 330xi; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '18 BMW X2. 47-car history and counting!

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 5,493
    Never been a big fan of Caddy's styling, but I always looked at a previous CTS Wagon as a "far out there, maybe one day" alternative. Graphic's problems ultimately crossed out it as a possibility and lack of a proper sports wagon, or other type of lift/hatchback (5-door of any kind that is not raised) does not help, either. I'm kind of stuck with 3- or 4- series, even if I wanted something else. E-class wagon is too big and too expensive for me at this time. Don'd care much for cladding on the Allroad. I may check out V60, but seems like it has pretty bad mileage in its proper "R" form (not to mention dealers don't have them - I may look at S60-R as a proxy). All others dropped out.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 5,192

    Here's another issue that Cadillac faces: The Auto Mall (AM).

    You can go to the AM and in the space of a couple hundred yards (feet in some cases) you can see the Cadillac dealer, the Lexus dealer, the Lincoln dealer and the Ford, KIA, Chrysler/Dodge, Hyundai and Honda dealers. So, you test the Cadillac, then a couple of minutes later be behind the wheel of a new Infiniti or Audi or BMW if you want.

    With the MSRP of the Cadillac so close to that of the Lexus or BMW, etc, and with the ability to almost literally test drive several brands on any given Saturday, Cadillac probably seems -- at this point -- to be overpriced or for whatever reason is undervalued.

    I think another compounding issue is that if the pricing is similar, the depreciation of Caddy is higher, so lease monthlies are going to be higher (that's my guess, I haven't checked). Since a lease is basically the financing of depreciation, the greater depreciation would actually make Caddy MORE expensive than those other brands, would it not, and is that actually the case? Or is GM basically reducing the price (effectively) by subsidizing the leases to remain at least at parity?

  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 25,932
    Make no mistake, the other luxo models depreciate steeply, too. I've lost about $13k-$14k on my CTS in the first year of ownership (only that low thanks to discount). A comparable 550i is down roughly $20k (assuming I could have gotten about $5k off, which I'm totally guessing at). They have to heavily subsidize their leases, too.

    '18 BMW 330xi; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '18 BMW X2. 47-car history and counting!

  • MichaellMichaell ColoradoPosts: 116,727
    tlong said:

    Here's another issue that Cadillac faces: The Auto Mall (AM).

    You can go to the AM and in the space of a couple hundred yards (feet in some cases) you can see the Cadillac dealer, the Lexus dealer, the Lincoln dealer and the Ford, KIA, Chrysler/Dodge, Hyundai and Honda dealers. So, you test the Cadillac, then a couple of minutes later be behind the wheel of a new Infiniti or Audi or BMW if you want.

    With the MSRP of the Cadillac so close to that of the Lexus or BMW, etc, and with the ability to almost literally test drive several brands on any given Saturday, Cadillac probably seems -- at this point -- to be overpriced or for whatever reason is undervalued.

    I think another compounding issue is that if the pricing is similar, the depreciation of Caddy is higher, so lease monthlies are going to be higher (that's my guess, I haven't checked). Since a lease is basically the financing of depreciation, the greater depreciation would actually make Caddy MORE expensive than those other brands, would it not, and is that actually the case? Or is GM basically reducing the price (effectively) by subsidizing the leases to remain at least at parity?

    I don't have any Cadillac lease numbers this month, so it's hard to say.

    In the past, Cadillac has had pretty low MF as compared to MB, BMW, etc., so that helped on the lease payments. It's also important to remember that other brands artificially inflate the residual to make leasing more attractive - at the expense of having a car worth less than the buyout at the end of the lease.

    If you think the lease numbers - especially residual value - are about reality, I'm here to refute that.

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    2016 VW Jetta 1.4T SE / 2015 Subaru Outback 3.6R / 2014 MINI Countryman S ALL4

  • henrynhenryn Houston, TXPosts: 2,575
    edited October 2015
    qbrozen said:

    Make no mistake, the other luxo models depreciate steeply, too. I've lost about $13k-$14k on my CTS in the first year of ownership (only that low thanks to discount). A comparable 550i is down roughly $20k (assuming I could have gotten about $5k off, which I'm totally guessing at). They have to heavily subsidize their leases, too.

    Which puts you at about $1100 or $1200 a month, just in depreciation. Ouch!!!

    And compare that to your last new car, the Mustang GT, which practically cost zero in depreciation over .. what was it, 18 months, 24 months?
    2018 Ford F150 XLT Crew Cab, 2016 Chrysler Town & Country Touring
  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 10,903
    henryn said:

    qbrozen said:

    Make no mistake, the other luxo models depreciate steeply, too. I've lost about $13k-$14k on my CTS in the first year of ownership (only that low thanks to discount). A comparable 550i is down roughly $20k (assuming I could have gotten about $5k off, which I'm totally guessing at). They have to heavily subsidize their leases, too.

    Which puts you at about $1100 or $1200 a month, just in depreciation. Ouch!!!

    And compare that to your last new car, the Mustang GT, which practically cost zero in depreciation over .. what was it, 18 months, 24 months?
    Was that Mustang GT brand new? Hard to believe there wasn't depreciation on a "new" car.
    '16 Audi TTS quattro 2.0T, '15 Audi A4 quattro 2.0T, '16 Kia Optima LX 1.6T
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 25,932
    edited October 2015
    Mustang was new. It was about $4k over 18 mos.

    As a percentage, the Stang was about 15% through 18 mos and the CTS about 26% through 10 mos.

    '18 BMW 330xi; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '18 BMW X2. 47-car history and counting!

  • flightnurseflightnurse Valley of HellPosts: 2,178
    qbrozen said:

    I'm obviously in the "undervalued" camp. Although I did get a significant discount on my CTS, which pushed the decision very far in Caddy's favor, I did compare to BMW and Jag (never made it to the Benz dealer) and, since I value performance, preferred the Caddy. Even if it was the same cost, I would have thought the CTS the better car, although it is possible the steeper depreciation would have swayed me if not for the discount.

    Well GC got a hell of a discount on his CTS too. Best deal doesn't always mean best car.
  • flightnurseflightnurse Valley of HellPosts: 2,178
    qbrozen said:

    Make no mistake, the other luxo models depreciate steeply, too. I've lost about $13k-$14k on my CTS in the first year of ownership (only that low thanks to discount). A comparable 550i is down roughly $20k (assuming I could have gotten about $5k off, which I'm totally guessing at). They have to heavily subsidize their leases, too.

    BNW has issues with the 550, but the other models are holding better, but we all know that BMW over inflates their residual on the leases. But if you take a M3 and ATS V-Sport I'm sure the BMW will have a higher sale value, the same could be said with the M5 and CTS V Sport.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 25,932
    edited October 2015

    qbrozen said:

    I'm obviously in the "undervalued" camp. Although I did get a significant discount on my CTS, which pushed the decision very far in Caddy's favor, I did compare to BMW and Jag (never made it to the Benz dealer) and, since I value performance, preferred the Caddy. Even if it was the same cost, I would have thought the CTS the better car, although it is possible the steeper depreciation would have swayed me if not for the discount.

    Well GC got a hell of a discount on his CTS too. Best deal doesn't always mean best car.
    Like I said, I got what I thought was the best car for me... I just happened to get the best deal on it, too.

    I do think the M3 does pretty well, but the M5 drops pretty fast at first (new 2014 started at $93k and is worth $68k trade now vs $64k and $50k, respectively, for the CTS-V). I know AMGs suffer. We'll have to see what happens with the ATS-V.

    '18 BMW 330xi; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '18 BMW X2. 47-car history and counting!

  • henrynhenryn Houston, TXPosts: 2,575
    If you want to play with the big boys, you better bring your check book! (smile)
    2018 Ford F150 XLT Crew Cab, 2016 Chrysler Town & Country Touring
  • Most of the leases from the car companies themselves are sub-vented. The thing is, part of the formula is based on MSRP -- and while the mfgr can inflate the residual and reduce the money factor, the issue of the MSRP still makes certain calculations limited in outcome.

    The good news,so to speak, is that these severely sub-vented leases make it possible to have a 5 series for a mo pay that one would think appropriate for a 3 series.

    We did buy my wife's SQ5 and leased my S4; I put nothing down. As she approaches 50K miles she finds she cannot CPO the car, but can buy Audi extended mntce. I, on the other hand, can have my car CPO'd and buy the extended mntce. I'll have both low payments and a 100K warranty and prepaid mntce to 85K. By then I'll own the car outright and likely have been under mntce and warranty the whole time with a payment less than my wife's 66 month finance (which did require a down payment).

    It is getting somewhat difficult to come up with a scenario where buy and hold is as attractive as lease and dump.

    Our plan, unless new information changes things, is for me to buy my S4 off lease and for her to trade the SQ5 prior to 100K miles.

    You know, my company just pays X amount every month for our IBM iSeries computer -- and every so often we get an upgrade to a newer faster bigger model. We'll be paying for the systems FOREVER but we'll always have full mntce and always have the latest and greatest computing power.

    Maybe cars are like corporate computers. Line items on the budget -- X dollars per month, which seems to yield bigger and faster at every upgrade.

    For $700+ (adjusted to keep pace with COL) per month forever, it appears I'll be able to have a new upgraded version of one of these ELLPS cars in perpetuity. That may seem not affordable at some point in time, and I know that time will likely come eventually. Mean time, it seems like keeping current with content and technology will be "situation normal."

    Drive it like YOU live.

  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 5,192



    It is getting somewhat difficult to come up with a scenario where buy and hold is as attractive as lease and dump.

    I suspect that's true in many cases - business deductions, or if you buy every 3 years or maybe even every 5.

    Of course I'm a always over 100K kind of guy so buy and hold makes a lot more sense. I've had many cars over 100K and even over 150K. When I see people who've had like 20 cars in 30 years I'm amazed. I've been driving over 40 years and I'm on my 5th car!

  • roadburnerroadburner Posts: 12,184
    tlong said:


    I suspect that's true in many cases - business deductions, or if you buy every 3 years or maybe even every 5.

    Of course I'm a always over 100K kind of guy so buy and hold makes a lot more sense. I've had many cars over 100K and even over 150K. When I see people who've had like 20 cars in 30 years I'm amazed. I've been driving over 40 years and I'm on my 5th car!

    I don't suffer from Shiny Object Syndrome, I buy cars I really like and hold on to them. 20 years in the case of the Club Sport, 13 years in the case of the Wrangler, and 8 years in the case of the MS3. That said, I've still owned 20 cars over my 42 years of driving. For my current 5 car fleet I budget $425 per month for maintenance and repairs- I guess that's really stupid- I should probably just lease 3 cars and make payments of upwards of $2100 month; that way I'd certainly save money.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2014 M235i; 2009 Cooper Clubman; 1999 Wrangler; 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i

  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 4,591
    Hmmm. In my 47 years of driving cars (only motorcycles until I was 20) I've had 7 that accumulated ~850K miles, with my 240Z's 224K miles the highest. So, there are three of us that do this sort of thing on here anyway. I'm not counting the 200K I put on my '71 KW, but those two years I was driving my car a lot less.
  • Sandman6472Sandman6472 Coral Springs, FLPosts: 4,868
    My '15 Golf SE doe not have power start and after having it in a loaner, would really have liked to have it. Not sure what 2016 will show, but doubt they'll add it. Thinking one day all vehicles will have power start and keys will no longer be necessary.

    The Sandman :) B)

    2015 Audi A3 (wife) / 2015 Golf TSI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2008 Hyundai Accent GLS (daughter #2)

  • flightnurseflightnurse Valley of HellPosts: 2,178

    My '15 Golf SE doe not have power start and after having it in a loaner, would really have liked to have it. Not sure what 2016 will show, but doubt they'll add it. Thinking one day all vehicles will have power start and keys will no longer be necessary.

    The Sandman :) B)

    When you say "power start" do you mean "Remote Start" since all cars have power start.. BMW does not offer remote start on the 3,4 or 5 series cars, which is ashame living here in the desert, it is nice to be able to start your car before getting into to cool it off..
  • carnaughtcarnaught Desert SWPosts: 2,749
    Maybe Sandy means keyless start.
  • Sandman6472Sandman6472 Coral Springs, FLPosts: 4,868
    Yes, no button on the console like the Jetta I drove had...just pushed the button and the car started up. At first I didn't like it but after a couple of days, I loved it! Would be so much easier to not have to deal with a key at all!

    The Sandman :) B)

    2015 Audi A3 (wife) / 2015 Golf TSI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2008 Hyundai Accent GLS (daughter #2)

  • Miscellaneous Topics

    Is there a spreadsheet (that I don't have to create myself) available (on line) that allows the user to plug in numbers -- and make some assumptions regarding repair and mntce costs -- to come up with the "cost of ownership" for buying and holding (at least 5 years) vs leasing (for at least 3 years)? I'd appreciate a URL if anyone here knows of one.

    I mentioned this before -- and it did have to do with a GM car in the spirit of full disclosure -- but my neighbor with 80K on his somewhat late model "paid for" Pontiac Bonneville was, according to him, making maintenance and repair payments that were not too far below his financing payments. He went ahead and got a new big-boy Dee-Lux CUV (Chevy) using the logic that if he was going to make payments on a crappy, unreliable, old car, why not make the same payments and be driving a new car with a warranty.

    He also bought a super-nice Ford four door pickup truck (with what darn near looks like a car interior, only nicer) -- and plans to keep it until the wheels turn square. Perhaps Ford trucks are really hard to kill or wound.

    Took my S4 in for the 35K service interval + a tire rotation last Thursday night; got an A7 with 5K miles on it; car was apparently a base model with 19" wheels, winter package (F/R heated seats, steering wheel) and LED headlights. For all intents and purposes, the window sticker I found in the glove box bottom lined at $69K. The option packages did not include the upgraded sound system, but, oddly Nav and voice command and BT communications and WiFi hotspot were all included. It also had premium paint (a kind of crystal black). Perhaps Premium+ doesn't merit a separate line item (which I thought odd, since there was an A6 Prestige on the showroom floor).

    The A7 was sublime -- library quiet, supple, smooth -- the thing oozed from point A to point B. As Col Potter once said, "there aren't enough O's in smooth to describe it." Of course he was talking about some very old scotch whisky as I recall.

    The upgraded wheels and tires (with all-season designation) were probably on the car for styling purposes since the car lacked the sport suspension option. But I hoped the A7 would be a true Luxury Performance Sedan -- especially for nearly $70K.

    In a straight line and at triple digit speeds, the car was, to repeat, sublime. However, I really could not find much of that German Taught feel I assumed would be present. Oh hell, the thing seemed very close to mushy, with ample body roll and, despite quick turn-in, a huge tendency toward understeer at any slightly above posted limits upon entering a curve or twisty section of highway.

    I had been, previously, loaned an A6 with all of the sport option boxes checked off and it seemed much much better than the A7.

    The thing sure was purty however -- but not nearly $10K more beautiful than a comparable A6 -- and driving it although not exactly a chore, was, hmm, rather a disappointment.

    I was able to pull into the dealer in the A7 and five minutes later drive out in my S4 -- the main straight line difference was that the S4 is not quite as quiet as the A7, but everything else about the S4 -- from the sound system to the sound of the engine at full cry -- was superior.

    Now, then, however, would I have the need to drive myself and 3 passengers on a 100 mile trip to Columbus, Louisville or Indianapolis, well the extra rear seat leg room of the A7 would be appreciated.

    I guess the S cars have the power to spoil (me at least). I simply would not pay the extra $13K for a relatively stripped A7 -- and if they were both $57K, the S4 would still be my first choice. Makes me wonder how much better, even, the B9 S4 will be over the A7's.

    Drive it like you live.
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