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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 10,910
    Michaell said:

    qbrozen said:

    well, I don't know about the term itself, but I feel there is definitely a big difference between a true luxury car and a mundane car loaded with options. No matter how many gadgets you throw on a Civic, it is still a Civic, and it won't compare to a 3-series in the end.

    Not to throw gas on the fire - but, why?

    The new 2016 Civic will be available with a 174HP 1.5L turbo ... not too far off from the 180HP available in the 320i.

    Given that BMW is moving away from the 'sport sedan' feeling they are famous for, what really is the difference between the two?

    Drive wheels - Civic is FWD; BMW is RWD

    Anything else?

    I've always wanted to own a luxury (or "prestige") make, but I'm finding it harder and harder to justify the $5-10-15K premium when the driving experience is really pretty much the same.
    Honda is good on safety, but if I was forced to have a head on collision between the 320i and the Civic, I'd choose the 320i for my bones and body. How about you? Be honest.
    '16 Audi TTS quattro 2.0T, '15 Audi A4 quattro 2.0T, '16 Kia Optima LX 1.6T
  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 10,910
    breld said:

    My wife got her S3 this past August and absolutely loves it. For her, it was about getting something with much of the "character" of the GTI she traded it in, but in a package that was more refined and mature. The S3 may feel rougher than an S4 (more on that below), but I would say it's much more refined than, say, a WRX. No doubt you're paying for that premium, but once you really load up a GTI, WRX or certainly a Golf R, the premium for the Audi gets much more palatable (at least it was for us).

    Now, I was impressed enough with her S3 that I returned to the Audi dealership and bought my S4 a few weeks later. And, after a few months of driving my S4 and having ample seat time in her S3....I'd agree, for the most part, with @markcincinnati regarding the difference in luxury between the two.

    In fact, and I posted this on the CCBA forum too, this S4 may be my favorite car I've owned. The balance between the sporty dynamic and luxury is impressive. To me, it feels like it falls in between two of my previous cars - an e90 335i and an f10 535i, offering most of the comfort of the 5 and most of the sport of the 3. Sort of a Goldilocks "just right" choice.

    I had debated between the great DSG and the manual, but in the end, I figured if Audi was still gonna offer the manual, I was gonna stick with they dying breed. And it is a great manual trannie - very "easy" to drive in traffic and for me, really adds to the overall experience. Not that there aren't times in my long work commute that I would prefer a nice auto, but I'll take advantage of it now while it's still being offered - doubt it will be for much longer.

    How many miles have you racked up on the new S4? There's been reports the engine really kicks it into gear once broken in at 1,000 and then again at 5,000 miles?

    The main thing I've noticed is the S4 has long legs. Whereas the 2.0T starts to run out of steam at 90 MPH, the S4 will get you to 120 MPH + in not too many heartbeats.
    '16 Audi TTS quattro 2.0T, '15 Audi A4 quattro 2.0T, '16 Kia Optima LX 1.6T
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 32,928
    3S has 184/185 HP/Torque. so more HP than the 1.8T, a little less torque. They are comparable performance wise I think. Mazda might be a little quicker.

    2019 Acura TLX A-spec 4 cyl. (mine), and 2013 Acura RDX AWD (wife's)

  • After nearly three dozen Audis since 1977, I can attest to the new engine feel that happens at 5K miles and at least once -- and my wife swears it is at least twice -- at a later mileage intervals. Indeed, my wife's SQ5 just turned 45K miles and her MPGs have climbed to over 27. My S4 with 35K miles is closer to 29 MPGs -- and we're talking over the course of a 100 mile one-way drive from Cincinnati to Columbus at speeds between 75 and 85 MPH.

    Full disclosure, front tire inflation 43, rear 41 psi.

    I use cruise control, my wife doesn't.

    Perhaps other companies produce cars with engines that reboot themselves several times over their lifespans, until I started driving Audis, however, I never noticed this being the case, however.

  • MichaellMichaell ColoradoPosts: 117,772
    andres3 said:

    Michaell said:

    qbrozen said:

    well, I don't know about the term itself, but I feel there is definitely a big difference between a true luxury car and a mundane car loaded with options. No matter how many gadgets you throw on a Civic, it is still a Civic, and it won't compare to a 3-series in the end.

    Not to throw gas on the fire - but, why?

    The new 2016 Civic will be available with a 174HP 1.5L turbo ... not too far off from the 180HP available in the 320i.

    Given that BMW is moving away from the 'sport sedan' feeling they are famous for, what really is the difference between the two?

    Drive wheels - Civic is FWD; BMW is RWD

    Anything else?

    I've always wanted to own a luxury (or "prestige") make, but I'm finding it harder and harder to justify the $5-10-15K premium when the driving experience is really pretty much the same.
    Honda is good on safety, but if I was forced to have a head on collision between the 320i and the Civic, I'd choose the 320i for my bones and body. How about you? Be honest.
    I'd choose the BMW as well. But, my budget doesn't stretch that far, vehicle wise.

    Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and let us know! Post a pic of your new purchase or lease!


    MODERATOR

    2015 Subaru Outback 3.6R / 2014 MINI Countryman S ALL4

  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 8,863
    stickguy said:

    3S has 184/185 HP/Torque. so more HP than the 1.8T, a little less torque. They are comparable performance wise I think. Mazda might be a little quicker.

    Since Mazda offers only the one engine, it's really unfair to compare that to the 3S engine.

    Mazda 3
    2 litre
    155 HP
    150 Torks
    2931 lbs.
    19 lbs/HP

    Audi A3
    1.8T
    170 HP
    200 Torks
    3175 lbs.
    19 lbs/HP

    IMHO, the vast majority of us would not notice any difference.
  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 20,471
    stickguy said:

    Well, if mainstream brands can't go "up", can Luxo brands go down? .

    They can and they have.. e.g. Cadillac and Lincoln. Even Buick was considered a "prestige" brand until perhaps the mid 60s.

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • stickguystickguy Posts: 32,928
    Rob, the 3S has the 2.5l engine with the 184/185 outputs. Really a quick car since it is pretty light.

    2019 Acura TLX A-spec 4 cyl. (mine), and 2013 Acura RDX AWD (wife's)

  • stickguystickguy Posts: 32,928
    agreed Andy. to me, the "luxury" brands were clearer in the old days. Caddy for sure. BMW was never luxury really. And Caddy really messed up the message when they tried to go real entry level (I guess the Cimmaron was the first attempt at an ELLPS?)

    a better word (that you used) IMO is "prestige". Audi is more prestige than Mazda. Volvo traveled in the Prestige area to an extent.

    2019 Acura TLX A-spec 4 cyl. (mine), and 2013 Acura RDX AWD (wife's)

  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 8,863
    stickguy said:

    Rob, the 3S has the 2.5l engine with the 184/185 outputs. Really a quick car since it is pretty light.

    Agreed but IMHO, it's not fair to compare the upgraded Audi motor to the base nee only Mazda motor. If Mazda could shoehorn the 2.5 (184/185) in the 3, then it would be a fair comparison.
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 32,928
    that motor is in the 3. The 2.0 is in the 3i, and the 2.5 is in the 3s.

    2019 Acura TLX A-spec 4 cyl. (mine), and 2013 Acura RDX AWD (wife's)

  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 8,863
    stickguy said:

    that motor is in the 3. The 2.0 is in the 3i, and the 2.5 is in the 3s.

    Argghhh. My wittle head is so confused. When you said 3S, I read it as S3. I checked Mazda's website and they don't make it easy to find the 2.5 comes in the Mazda 3.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,181
    Geez, Mazda has been putting the 2.5 in the 3 for several years.  Same engine as in the bigger Mazda6 but it gets worse mpg.  Guess different gearing as it's the same tranny.
  • breldbreld Posts: 4,472
    edited October 2015
    andres3 said:

    breld said:

    My wife got her S3 this past August and absolutely loves it. For her, it was about getting something with much of the "character" of the GTI she traded it in, but in a package that was more refined and mature. The S3 may feel rougher than an S4 (more on that below), but I would say it's much more refined than, say, a WRX. No doubt you're paying for that premium, but once you really load up a GTI, WRX or certainly a Golf R, the premium for the Audi gets much more palatable (at least it was for us).

    Now, I was impressed enough with her S3 that I returned to the Audi dealership and bought my S4 a few weeks later. And, after a few months of driving my S4 and having ample seat time in her S3....I'd agree, for the most part, with @markcincinnati regarding the difference in luxury between the two.

    In fact, and I posted this on the CCBA forum too, this S4 may be my favorite car I've owned. The balance between the sporty dynamic and luxury is impressive. To me, it feels like it falls in between two of my previous cars - an e90 335i and an f10 535i, offering most of the comfort of the 5 and most of the sport of the 3. Sort of a Goldilocks "just right" choice.

    I had debated between the great DSG and the manual, but in the end, I figured if Audi was still gonna offer the manual, I was gonna stick with they dying breed. And it is a great manual trannie - very "easy" to drive in traffic and for me, really adds to the overall experience. Not that there aren't times in my long work commute that I would prefer a nice auto, but I'll take advantage of it now while it's still being offered - doubt it will be for much longer.

    How many miles have you racked up on the new S4? There's been reports the engine really kicks it into gear once broken in at 1,000 and then again at 5,000 miles?

    The main thing I've noticed is the S4 has long legs. Whereas the 2.0T starts to run out of steam at 90 MPH, the S4 will get you to 120 MPH + in not too many heartbeats.
    I'm around 3,700 miles now on the S4, so haven't hit that 5k mile mark. To be honest, the car has felt real strong to me from the get go, so if it starts to "kick it into gear" at 5k miles, I suppose it'll be a pleasant surprise. :)

    The wife's S3 is by all means very quick, but I do appreciate the more linear feel, and sound, of my S4.

    2018 Audi Q7 - 2018 Audi A5 - 2017 Miata RF

  • breldbreld Posts: 4,472
    Geez, I guess I know I've gone through too many cars when I can speak to all these cars being discussed from personal ownership experience over the last year or so. :o

    Had a Passat with the 1.8t a little over a year ago, the Mazda 3s just recently, and the current S4. The wife traded in a GTI on the S3, and the daughter has an '08 A3 2.0T.

    So, lot of experience with VW's 4 cylinder turbos. I specifically went for the Mazda3 to get a different feel - a more traditional n/a 4 cylinder with a linear feel in acceleration.

    I'd say there is a very distinct feel between something like a 1.8T A3 and the Mazda 3s. And I'd add the 1.8T, in most any of the applications, feels a bit more upscale. Having said that, I still chose the Mazda3, whatever that's worth.

    2018 Audi Q7 - 2018 Audi A5 - 2017 Miata RF

  • sdasda Indian Land, SCPosts: 2,806

    After nearly three dozen Audis since 1977, I can attest to the new engine feel that happens at 5K miles and at least once -- and my wife swears it is at least twice -- at a later mileage intervals. Indeed, my wife's SQ5 just turned 45K miles and her MPGs have climbed to over 27. My S4 with 35K miles is closer to 29 MPGs -- and we're talking over the course of a 100 mile one-way drive from Cincinnati to Columbus at speeds between 75 and 85 MPH.

    Full disclosure, front tire inflation 43, rear 41 psi.

    I use cruise control, my wife doesn't.

    Perhaps other companies produce cars with engines that reboot themselves several times over their lifespans, until I started driving Audis, however, I never noticed this being the case, however.

    Mark, what was your first Audi? While we were in France in 1975 my mom had a 71 100LS automatic. It had in board front disc brakes that had to be replaced frequently, otherwise a good car. Mom really liked it. Dad had a company car, a 75 Renault 30 with the PRV V-6. That one stayed in the shop. What Audi was your least favorite and your overall favorite? You certainly have been loyal, going thru the dark period of unintended acceleration.

    2016 Audi Q5 Premium Plus w/tech, 2013 Honda Accord EX, 2006 Acura TL w/nav

  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,343
    edited October 2015
    I got my first Audi in 1977, it was a '78 Audi 5000 with Power-pack (which just meant it had power brakes, steering, locks, windows, antenna. I think the sunroof was crank.)

    It had a 100HP 5-cylinder engine, was FWD and at the time it was the nicest car I had ever driven -- even nicer than the BMW's I had driven to date.

    Next up was a '79 Silver Fox GTI (got it for my wife); I remember this one as it had corduroy seat covers.

    Over the years we've had dozens of Audi's plus three BMW's 1 Infiniti, 1 Acura and 2 VW's. We have little to complain about our Japanese cars, but, when all is said and done, "nothing satisfies like beef," er, German cars, that is.

  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 3,024
    HA - I had a 1978 Audi Fox GTI.
    - Ray
    [ Bought it FOR ME ! ]
    2016 BMW 340i
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 4,455
    Lux sales ytd. It's close.


    "BMW AG’s namesake brand, the current holder of the annual crown, leads this year through October with 279,395 sales, a 4.6 percent increase from a year earlier. Daimler AG’s Mercedes was just 553 behind at 278,842, up 6.5 percent. Lexus deliveries totaled 273,881, a gain of 12 percent."
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,343
    edited November 2015
    Why Drive ‘All-Wheel’ drive cars (that have automatic transmissions)?

    Those of you who have, er, suffered through my 5,000+ posts over the past years know that I am an advocate for – some might even say obsessed with – quattro, X-drive, 4Matic, SH-AWD, 4Sure-4Sure, etc. drive trains. Several folks do adamantly oppose all-wheel-drive, favoring instead rear-wheel-drive (and only rarely favoring front-wheel-drive). Likewise some folks are seemingly violently opposed to any transmission that lacks a clutch pedal, regardless of the tonnage of empirical evidence suggesting some clutch-pedal-less models actually outperform those with a clutch.

    Not long ago, I was one of the Luddites who bemoaned the death of the manual transmission cars – now, however, with both my physical skills and reading habits apparently still at peak performance, I hereby concede the 7-spd DSG transmission (and its shift programming and ability to ‘learn’) offered by Audi (and others) is superior to even the best 6-spd manual I’ve ever had the pleasure to have known.

    But what I’m on about – in the majority – today is the darn near universal adoption of all-wheel-drive as either literally or virtually standard on the premium cars we opine about here: Acuras, Audis, BMWs, Cadillacs, Infinitis, Lexus, Mercedes and Volvos. As a practical matter, here in Cincinnati at least, it has become increasingly difficult to find just about any model from these manufacturers that aren’t ‘typically’ stocked almost exclusively in its AWD configuration. Cincinnati generally does not have much in the way of snowfall, so I find it hard to believe this phenomenon (the explosion of AWD premium vehicles) is unduly influenced by our winter weather (which produces some, but not much, cold and snowfall.)

    The, um, ‘purists’ decry AWD’s weight penalty, added complexity and cost, and seem to associate the addition of AWD to a BMW (especially) or Mercedes (or Porsche) as akin to the brand publically emasculating itself with a rusty razor blade. To these folks, well, “It ain’t a purty sight,” to watch their beloved RWD stick shift wielding brands eschew everything that made them special.

    Horse-hockey!

    First off, let’s stipulate we’re (I’m) talking about the cars we can buy to drive on the public streets, roads and highways almost exclusively. This means I’m not going to presume you’re shopping for a new BMW or Cadillac or even Mercedes C class in the $50,000+ range so that you can drive (your new machine, your personal means of transportation for the things you do in your life) from the dealer to the race track or drag strip (if such things – ‘drag strips’ – have somehow managed to stay off of the politically incorrect list and, of course, still actually exist outside of an historical reference) as if such activities are de rigueur.

    No, what I’m on about here is our everyday (and every weekend) cars – no matter that they may be some form of a Luxury Performance Sedan (brand and model) configuration.

    In order, I say, you’re better off with (in order) an AWD, FWD and finally RWD vehicle – generally speaking. Yes, there are activities and (mere) moments where your beloved RWD may demonstrate its superiority over the other drive line configurations. But, from a practical perspective, RWD for most folks is the ‘least-best’ configuration if you actually buy your car to drive (principally, primarily – or virtually exclusively, that is), year ‘round on our public streets, roads and highways. Conversely, AWD is the best configuration you can employ to navigate our public streets, roads and highways.

    Now, thanks to Bing and Google, it is possible to find apparently endless studies, tests, opinion pieces, essays and love letters for your favorite set-up. However, what does appear to be happening (again) is what was once (in the early 1980’s) referred to as the time between the parenthesis, the time between eras. In the context of both ‘Megatrends’ (the book I am referencing) and the number and location of a car’s driven wheels (and manual transmissions, to a lesser extent), "[Some] are clinging to the known past in fear of the unknown future."
    Believe it or not, over five years ago, in the March 24, 2010, edition of the Wall Street Journal it was written:

    “Rear-wheel drive may not even be that important for some of BMW's new customers. Mr. Reithofer (then BMW AG’s chairman) told analysts. . .that BMW had a survey that found 80% of the customers for the BMW compact 1 series, which in Europe is sold mainly with four-cylinder engines, didn't know it was a rear-wheel drive car.”

    The same 2010 article concluded: “The truth is that most drivers probably can't tell whether they are driving one kind of car or another. As technology narrows the performance differences, "luxury cars don't have to be defined by which ends drive them."

    On-line comments posted in response to this article included:

    "I grew up driving RWD cars in the snowy mid-west. I can tell you FWD cars take all the fun out of winter driving. My first experience was with a rented Toyota corolla near Vail, CO. With a foot of fresh snow I was able to easily maintain 55 mph, with the car tracking like a champ. Any RWD car would have been in the ditch over 35 mph."

    And so it goes.

    RWD may – but it is increasingly difficult to prove – offer that certain je ne sais quoi, a ‘quality or trait that cannot be described or named easily.’ But technology has virtually wiped out the recognizable differences and, I would argue, has – in the best configurations such as those offered by many premium auto manufacturers, literally wiped out the unrecognizable (some would call them measurable) differences.

    Still, some (or many depending upon your bias) front-wheel-drive cars suffer, at least somewhat, from the reputation as being unexciting to drive.

    Maybe, like so many other things (or everything else?), it’s all about ‘da money’ – FWD is cheaper to make, provides better packaging and can also provide lower emissions and higher MPG’s. Yet, with the apparently relentless increase in the up-take of AWD cars, CUV's and, of course, SUV's, that may not be true; it may be that the market [you and I] simply perceive AWD to be the best (and remember perception IS reality)!

    Then, when the market (aka ‘you’) do finally get yourself to the point of either wanting better and better performance, or perhaps wanting the Ultimate Driving Experience, you end up in a top o’ the line 3, 5 or 7 series – with X-drive, natch.

    Nothing even comes close to a fine fine German AWD sedan (as we discuss them here, classified as either ELLPS or LPS cars).

    RWD (like the manual transmission) is rapidly becoming an historical footnote – far as I can tell, most Millennials have AWD or FWD vehicles and can’t even drive a stick.

    Of course, if they're driving a DSG equipped car, they are almost certainly shifting better than you or I, on our best days, can shift a stick.

    . . . and then you die.

    Drive it like you live. B)


  • Sandman6472Sandman6472 Coral Springs, FLPosts: 4,868
    I know one thing, the wife's A3 and my Golf both have the 1.8T engine but hers just seems to drive smoother. Think hers is heavier and maybe that's the reason why. While hers calls for premium, mine wants regular. And her first oil change was at 5K while mine was at 10K. I do know her interior looks and feels a bit nicer than mine. Being our first time going German, these are just my initial reactions to what I see and feel. Maybe next time I'll try a BMW just to see but hope they still make a small vehicle like the 1 Series by then.

    The Sandman :) B)

    2015 Audi A3 (wife) / 2015 Golf TSI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2008 Hyundai Accent GLS (daughter #2)

  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,307
    good banter here of late ... I am still an manual purist but I agree with Mark the transmission tied to the engine of the s4 is pretty perfect. It shifts so quick, is so veristile being a gentlemens salon to a sports sedan in a second and can get 30mpg on the highway- in fact as my s4 gets older (25k miles) it gets 20-22 in the city. Compared to my g35x it's night and day as I was getting city figures on the highway- and I loved that car. On the awd weight issue thing... With the optional limited slip diff you could never guess when pressing car into turns that its awd and weighs as much as a whale. I love the car. I can't wait to drive an s3 because for me it has everything I would need and would love to see how it compairs.

    Well as Infiniti, Acura, caddy, Lincoln, jag struggle to battle the big three a newcomer has entered. http://www.nydailynews.com/autos/news/hyundai-launch-genesis-global-luxury-brand-december-article-1.2423042
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 32,928
    Sandy, in theory it is not the same engine. mostly the same, but Audi may be tuned differently, which could explain the different feel, and premium. But, more likely it is just that the Audi has more sound insulation or some such. Check the specs on the 2 cars. see if output is any different (peak HP/torque, at what RPM). if they are the same, probably just psychological ploy, since premium buyers expect premium fuel!

    I had this issue with my RDX. Same engine family as IIRC the Accord (only the last letter was different). Had almost identical (within 1-2) ratings both ways, at the same RPM. I could find no difference that meant premium recommended on the Acura but not the Honda applications.

    I have used both. Never found a difference.

    2019 Acura TLX A-spec 4 cyl. (mine), and 2013 Acura RDX AWD (wife's)

  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 4,593
    edited November 2015

    Those of you who have, er, suffered through my 5,000+ posts over the past years . . .

    It was noted that during a recent "downturn" in the business cycle, your posts dried up to a mere trickle. Some were even short.

    Business must be really good these days.

  • graphicguygraphicguy Edmunds Poster EmeritusPosts: 11,499
    Mark....once again, good observations.

    Given that Mark and I live in the same area of OH (Cincinnati and its 'burbs), I concur, we get little in the way of snowfall. When and if we do get it, it's either a dusting, or a BIG snow storm. I have a snow blower. I've gone 2-3 years sometimes without using it.

    So, why the AWD in ELLPS? Must be a "tick box" for the upscale brands, particularly once they cross that $50K threshold. Personally, I would have no issues going RWD...matter of fact, I had done so for years with no ill effects. But, there's a perception around here....you pay that sort of money, you better get all the manufacturer's tech/features that come in their play book. AWD is one of them.

    All that said, AWD mechanisms have become pretty sophisticated (everyone has a version of torque vectoring these days), and effects handling in a very positive way. Plus, the days of yore, when AWD systems were big, clunky and heavy, have passed. They are now controled by computer, using light(er) weight materials and seem to be fairly robust and reliable.

    IF it weren't for the enhanced handling of the Torque Vectoring AWD systems today, I'd probably look to buy my cars in warmer climes where I could find RWD examples to buy, and drive them up here to park in the GG estate.

    Sween...I heard about the Genesis finally moving to be its own brand. I think it's the right move for them. That's the ONLY way they'll get ELLPS people in their showrooms.

    2018 Acura TLX 3.5 SH AWD A-SPEC
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,343
    edited November 2015
    I am very much looking forward to the "brand" Genesis. I think this move could poke and prod the Germans and the Japanese (and I hope the Americans) to provide even more in the way of features, functions, reliability and durability, and of course, performance.

    Competition will strengthen the category -- good for us all.
  • MichaellMichaell ColoradoPosts: 117,772

    I am very much looking forward to the "brand" Genesis. I think this move could poke and prod the Germans and the Japanese (and I hope the Americans) to provide even more in the way of features, functions, reliability and durability, and of course, performance.

    Competition will strengthen the category -- good for us all.

    The problem is that Hyundai won't be putting the "Genesis" brand into their own stores. It will be more like Scion - a corner of an existing Hyundai store. Not sure if they are forcing the dealers to upgrade their facilities if they want to carry the 'brand', either.

    My Hyundai store does the most volume in the state, but the facilities - both sales and service - are a bit shop-worn. Not sure you can provide a "Lexus-like" experience that way.

    Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and let us know! Post a pic of your new purchase or lease!


    MODERATOR

    2015 Subaru Outback 3.6R / 2014 MINI Countryman S ALL4

  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,343
    edited November 2015
    One word should be at the top of "the memo" to [US] Genesis store owners: Phaeton
  • MichaellMichaell ColoradoPosts: 117,772

    One word should be at the top of "the memo" to [US] Genesis store owners: Phaeton

    Exactly.

    And, VW already has a luxury brand - Audi. Still don't understand what they were thinking bringing that to the US. Or anywhere, for that matter.

    Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and let us know! Post a pic of your new purchase or lease!


    MODERATOR

    2015 Subaru Outback 3.6R / 2014 MINI Countryman S ALL4

  • rbirns1rbirns1 Posts: 276
    Still can't fathom the giant mistake by Hyundai in not taking a page from the Lexus/Infiniti/Acura playbook. You cannot sell a true luxury car alongside mainstream cars. If they want to be taken seriously by luxury buyers, they have to establish separate Genesis brand and dealers. Should have done it from the start.
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