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Ferrari-the Ultimate classic (Ferrari Lovefest Topic)

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  • sphinx99sphinx99 Posts: 776
    Read the article too. My takeaway was that the CL600 is the amazing car of that roundup. It nearly beat out the brand-new Ferrari (4 pts off) despite being an older car that costs 1/2 the price. I had no idea the performance envelope of the new 6L was that high. It'll be interesting to see a CL65 pitted against this same crowd!
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Well here is a video of the CL65 vs the Bentley and the Aston:

    http://www.ic.sunysb.edu/Stu/kpouliki/cl65_0001.wmv

    Not much of a contest at the track.

    M
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 57,839
    I think the Ferrari won heavily on subjective feelings and reactions, which is really understandable. There is nothing that feels and drives and sounds and looks like a Ferrari--it is really in a different universe than any other car, even if the others cars are as fast, etc. So the subjective input factor really favors the Ferrari since it has so much personality. Call it "car charisma" or something. Maybe it's just a trick and partially irrational but it seems to work on some people. Works for me anyway. I think Ferraris are unique in a world where unique cars are getting rarer and rarer.

    As for the Bentley, that marque has been mediocre since the day Rolls Royce bought it some 70 odd years ago, and it seems that while new owners have improved it mightily, it is still not good enough vis a vis the competition. "The more things change, the more they etc. etc."

    Once you lose your crown in the automotive world, it's very hard to get it back again it seems.

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  • ajvdhajvdh Posts: 223
    Yeah, but it only took 8 guys to out-pull it.

    And what car did all three editors choose - hint: It was the most Ferrari-like one of the three.
  • tsaupe1tsaupe1 Posts: 166
    I completely agree that the Ferrari won on subjective points. After all, isn't that really how we make almost all automotive decisions. Sure, we play the numbers games, and we try very hard to be practical. However, I think that most often we end up using all that information just to justify purchases to ourselves. If you want a Bentley, you're going to buy one. You'll find some way to make the specs and reviews justify your decision.

    On another note. I'm sad to say that my wife was unable to get spy photos of the new 360 replacement while in Maranello the past few weeks. Unfortunately she had to settle for watching Schumi and Badoer testing the F1 car on Fiorano. What a shame! I guess we'll just have to go back soon for another try.
  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 18,731
    Anyone see the computer-generated 420 Modena coupe in the August R&T?
    It had a grille slot stretching across the lower front of the car instead of the oversize ducts on either side on the 360, IOTW it was an improvement aesthetically.

    I hope the new Modena ends up looking like that.

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 18,731
    appears in the new Road and Track for September, the 600 Imola slated, sez R&T, to replace the 575 Maranello.

    It's a frontal "shot" and shows a strong resemblance to the 612 with slighly more aggressive shapes and detailing.

    I'm glad they're planning to replace the somewhat generic looking Maranello with something that looks classically Ferrari without being "retro".
    If the sim isn't an accurate portrayal of the next Ferrari GT I'll be surprised, it looks very credible.

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 18,731
    on the '06 600 Imola, less clear than the R&T shot, but less virtual...

    http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?n=178&sid=178&a- - rticle=7186

    The Lehmann photo lacks the center hood scoop seen on the R&T virtual shot but there appears to be a bra or something covering the hood. You can clearly see the 612-like headlights and the agressive grille shape that distinguishes the 600 from the 612.

    There's no Corvette like-cove along the side of the Imola in any shot that I've seen. It looks like they need something to break up that side.

    I wish the R&T shot was online but so far it isn't.

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • tsaupe1tsaupe1 Posts: 166
    This is from the Ferrari Owner's site press release regarding the new car. Sorry, can't capture the pictures, but it's very 360 like.

    "The F430 hails the arrival of a new generation of Ferrari 8-cylinder engines. The new model takes Ferrari’s extraordinary achievements with aluminium construction technology, which started with the 360 Modena, to a whole new level and offers a series of extremely significant innovations directly derived from the Prancing Horse’s Formula 1 single-seaters.
    Two of these innovations are world firsts for production cars: the electronic differential (E-DIFF) initially developed by Ferrari for its F1 single-seaters but now adapted to the needs of a high performance road car, and the steering wheel-mounted commutator switch (better known to the Scuderia’s drivers as the “manettino”) which the driver uses to select the integrated systems governing vehicle dynamics.
    The other main characteristics of the new Ferrari F430 are its light, compact 4,300cc 90° V8 engine which punches out 490 hp to achieve a specific horse power of 114 bhp/litre, guaranteeing the new Ferrari berlinetta a weight-to-power ratio of 2.8 kg/hp (dry weight); a braking system with optional carbon-ceramic discs for optimal efficiency even after severe and prolonged braking; a Formula 1-derived gearbox that cuts gear shifting times to 150 milliseconds, allowing the driver to make the very most of a truly high performance car (0-100 km/h acceleration in four seconds flat, a top speed in excess of 315 km/h); and lastly, sophisticated aerodynamics that adopt the very latest racing developments, especially in terms of the flat underbody and big rear diffuser to increase downforce. "
  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 18,731

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • tsaupe1tsaupe1 Posts: 166
    Well, considering that people are still lining up for 360's and 360 CS models, I suppose you could make the case for not making dramatic changes in a winning design. As always, I'll reserve final judgement for when I see it in the flesh.

    A friend should be taking delivery of his CS this week. I wonder if he thinks he should have waited? Would you?
  • sphinx99sphinx99 Posts: 776
    Sometimes cars continue to sell despite not necessarily being at the top of their class. The F360 in recent years hasn't lost any of its gloss, but it does appear to have lost some of its class-leading verve. It's a Ferrari so it makes great Ferrari noises, but by seemingly all accounts the Gallardo is simply the better car on the race track. The Ford GT also offers an elevated performance envelope, and there's a brand new 911 showing up and, presumably, the revised Turbos to follow. I recently saw a video pitting a 360CS against a Gallardo, a M3 CSL, a NSX Type R, and a Murcielago on a curvy race track in Japan, and the 360CS came in last.

    So in that sense I think the Modena replacement is needed. I also think that its power output is incredible. 114hp/L (or whatever it is) may not necessarily be the highest specific output in the land, but it's truly extraordinary when you consider that this is a big honkin' V8.

    Looking at 2005 in my mind I clearly see the S2000 having the top 4-banger, the M3 with the top 6-banger, and the Carrera GT with the top V10. I haven't been sure about eight-cylinder engines but after reading the design on this new powerplant, I think Ferrari has a lock on the V8 with the new Modena.
  • tsaupe1tsaupe1 Posts: 166
    It's been another extraordinary season for Ferrari in F1. If any of you watched the race at Monza, it's perfectly obvious as to why they are sop dominant, best cars, both in speed and reliability, and the best drivers. Schumacher is unquestionably head and shoulders above the rest and Rubens' drive on Sunday showed how well he can do when he puts everything into it and is out of Schumi's shadow.

    As the season winds down, Luca Di M., is again making noises about the financial in equities in F1 and how Ferrari might pull out. Obviously, this is posturing, but, if they were to quit F1 altogether, where would you like to see them put their emphasis. What racing form or series would either benefit from Ferrari involvement or best be enlivened by direct factory involvement of the kind Ferrari has in F1?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 57,839
    NASCAR? Just kidding.

    I can't imagine Ferrari pulling out of F1. If my memory serves, they have NEVER missed an F1 season since the company began.

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  • tsaupe1tsaupe1 Posts: 166
    Oh, agreed. I can't imagine Ferrari out of F1 or F1 without Ferrari. Obviously, this is all part of the constructors posturing which has been on going for the past two seasons as they try and get Bernie to loosen the purse strings.

    But their commitment to F1 has meant that they no longer have factory participation elsewhere. Frankly, I miss them in sportscars, I'd love to see them in ALMS prototypes, especially if Porsche would get off their butts and rejoin as well. Although it never went well for the Scuderia, I miss that rivalry and would love to see a rematch!
  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 18,731
    Ferrari belongs in long distance sports car racing as much as F1. They left with their tail between their legs in the 70s and it's high time they redeemed themselves.

    Aston-Martin is going for the GT class next year with their beautiful DBR-9. Prodrive will run 575 Maranello GTCs in a quasi-factory effort.

    Hopefully they'll step up to LMP and tackle w Audi and Porsche.

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 18,731
    Speed Channel's subject in Behind the Headlights tonight was the 166 MM (Barchetta) which Luigi Chinetti convinced Ferrari to enter in the 1949 LeMans 24 hour.

    Ferrari wasn't much interested because he preferred building Grand Prix racers but Chinetti convinced him to do it, Chinetti drove the little 2-liter V12 to victory, Ferrari's first major victory, and it occurred before the advent of Formula One in 1950.

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • tsaupe1tsaupe1 Posts: 166
    Drat! I wanted to see that show but forgot to set the VCR. Hopefully, as is their usual want, Speed will replay it soon.
  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 18,731
    Weds night at 8pm, the Monterey Historic Races featuring loads of Ferrari and other vintage racing greats.

    I'll bet it's more interesting than the Chinese Grand Prix the promo aired in.

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 18,731
    The Speed Channel Monterey Historics show was worth it just to see those GTOs piling thru the corkscrew @ Laguna Seca, what a sight!

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • tsaupe1tsaupe1 Posts: 166
    Saw the show last night and, now more than ever, I'm sorry I couldn't get out there for the events this year. Andy you're right, it was worth just to see all those GTOs and F1 cars on track. I wish they had concetrated more on some of the race coverage though.
  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 18,731
    the Oct.'04 Octane has a round-up of all the Ferrari 250 models from '55 (Mille Miglia) to '64 (Lusso). Great stuff about my favorite Ferraris.

    Tom, the October Classic and Sports Cars has a good article on one of our favorites, the 330 GTC illustrated by photos of a really nice bright metallic blue car.

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • tsaupe1tsaupe1 Posts: 166
    Andy, I picked up the Octane issue the other day. The photographs are beautiful! I wish the writing had been up to the same standards. A bit cursory for my taste.

    The new Forza has some interesting stuff in it this month including a gentleman in France who has been using his GTO as a daily driver for years. Funny there are issues of Forza which I take a glance at, perhaps read a couple of short articles, and then put away, and others that I read from cover to cover. The magazine seems to lack some consistency.

    I'll have to pick up Classic and Sports Cars. I love the 330 GTC. Recently I was at Boston Sports Car, where I have my car serviced, and they had a 365 GTC in for an alignment. Rare as hen's teeth. It basically a 330 body with slight nose and hood mods (slightly larger grill opening, etc.) with a 365 engine/drivetrain. I think they built about a dozen of them towards the end of the 330 run.

    Actually, it was a good day over there. Also in the shop was the '52 250 PA Prototype, a '56 (?) Benz 300 SL roadster (prettier than a gullwing) and the new Lambo Murcielago Barchetta press car. I have to admit, the Lambo was exciting, but I'd have jumped over it to get to either the Benz or the 250 (a prototype yet!).
  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 18,731
    FORZA item about the GTO daily driver. I agree about the lack of detailed analysis in the 250 article and I'm not sure all their facts are straight but it's one of the few places I've seen all those 250 types together.

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • tsaupe1tsaupe1 Posts: 166
    Nice write up on the new 8 cylinder car on Edmunds. Let's see, the 612 is reasonabley new, deliveries are taking place and pretty soon we'll start seeing them on the street. So i guess the next new car, revamp or what ever is a replacement for the 575 M. As soon as we see a 575 Barchetta we'll know its days are numbered. How do we replace another great series of cars? Front mounted 12? Midships? Paddles only? Baby Enzo? What's next?
  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 18,731
    of the 575 replacement called the 600, I think it was in a recent Road & Track. It looks much like a 612 (an improvement IMO).

    Dunno where they go after that except that there are new Maseratis coming out (Crossover & new Coupe/Spider)

    It looks much like a 612 (an improvement IMO)

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 18,731
    a good day. I saw a very nice silver 456M parked in front of a rinky dink looking local tire store. It was parked in the driveway w a motorcycle and no other vehicles around.

    I thought both vehicles complemented each other nicely. We only see F-cars two or three times yearly in Concord NH.

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • tsaupe1tsaupe1 Posts: 166
    Last Sunday was likely the last run for the FCA/NE folks. It was a drive through the country side ending at Ferrari New England for lunch and viewing the Brazilian GP. About 50 cars showed, ranging from 3X8s and 355s to TRs. We even had a definitly not street-legal 355 challenge car running with straight pipes. Somehow the owner had talked a NH repair plate off of someone. It sounded beautiful, although the folks in some of the neighborhoods we went through might not have agreed.

    The ride went well, right up until we hit the police roadblock. No tickets issued, but some stern finger shaking was done.

    While at FoNE, I looked at a 512 Boxer on the showroom floor. Although the price was reasonable, there were several questions about the car. For one thing, the seat wear didn't match the indicated mileage on the odo. I'll take a pass on it. Besides, Boxers are notorious for service, constant and expensive.

    For those of you in the NE area, Peter Wright, who wrote an excellent book on Ferrari F1, will be lecturing December 4th at the Lars Anderson Museum of transportation in Brookline, MA. As I get more details, I'll keep you posted.

    T
  • I'm looking at a couple of '87 328GTS, both with approximately 40K miles. Both are California cars with clean Carfax, legit service records. One was stripped and repainted. The other is nearly pristine and original. Both are priced in the mid $40K's.

    Question for all of you: Is a 328 with 40K a few years away from being a parts car? I plan on using this as a weekend car only - figure 2-3K miles per year. I've talked to the service manager at the local Ferrari dealer, and I'm OK with the maintenance costs and schedule. However, I've read horror stories about Ferrari engines needing a rebuild before 50,000 miles.

    Any input appreciated -- I'm a Mercedes and BMW guy, never owned an F-car before. Oh wait, a Fiat X1/9 in high school. Mid-engined F-car. Vroom vroom. ;-)
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