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Toyota Tundra vs. Chevrolet Silverado

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Comments

  • pmuscepmusce Posts: 132
    "Can I yawn any louder?

    What happens when Tundra aces the IIHS test, a much harder test?

    The only people who get hurt in a full-size truck are the ones who don't wear seat belts. Natural Selection.

    It's not like they built the thing with gas tanks outside the frame rails or something.....

    DrFill "

    If Toyota has the same attitude as you they will never lead or make significant headway the full size truck market. This market is very tough. I guarantee the 2009 Ram and F150 will erase the power and towing advantage the Tundra has over them. You can ignore weaknesses the Tundra has all you want but Toyota needs to address them or risk being the fringe player they have been in this market for the last 13+ years. I know what GM has planned over the next couple of year for the GMT900's and I can tell you they are certainly not sitting still. GM knows that despite how much improved the new Tundra is, they are preparing for the new Ram and F150.
  • beliasbelias Posts: 316
    I have not seen anything from Toyota talking about whether or not plans for HD versions of the Tundra are on hold or stopped altogether. My guess is that unless there is some major problem with development or a supplier, I can't see any kind of decisions coming through the pipeline this early on. Toyota hasn't had the chance to get much feedback on the new Tundra and the larger question is at what point will that affect development of the HD versions of their trucks.
    My guess is that this is merely a rumor or speculation that is not based on anything coming from Toyota directly. I think it would be too early to have a decision like this made. They are not in any financial difficulty, they haven't had the chance to get much feedback on the current Tundra, and they've expressed their desire to enter and be a contender in the full-size truck market with larger, heavier-duty trucks. That seems like, if anything, they are just moving ahead quietly like with many other projects. I think it was mentioned earlier that 2010 was a target date for the larger trucks. Frankly I would be surprised to see that... more likely 2012 or so as they need to ramp up manufacturing capability and they have to do it without it being at the expense of production of other vehicles...
    In any case, it is a long way off... news on this likely won't be significant or important for at least the next year or two.
  • beliasbelias Posts: 316
    I can certainly agree with most of your post here. Certainly the next F150 and Ram will be taking the lead in power and other areas for bragging rights. The real question for them is whether they can do it while keeping costs down. Unfortunately, both Ford and Dodge do not have the luxury of a balance sheet like GM, much less Toyota. The problem with the "1-upsmanship" game for both Ford and Dodge is that it doesn't work to their advantage in the long term. It means expensive R&D, development, and manufacturing to get the product to market.
    The main difference I see between them and GM/Toyota is that while GM/Toyota will actually sell the majority of their trucks (in particular the Toyotas) with their "best" engine, Ford and Dodge will probably only keep those as limited-production models because they would be pricing themselves out of the market otherwise.
    GM has a number of powertrains that can be used, so their vast selection just provides more options, but they produce in big numbers. Toyota will sell the majority of their trucks with the 5.7l engine. Ford and Dodge will probably introduce new engines at the higher end and probably enhance current engines to be the "mainstream" product for getting sales numbers. But it will be tough for both of them going forward.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    Toyota's attitude is a winning attitude, but they have a business plan where they can be far more patient that other makers.

    I wouldn't consider a 4-star test a "weakness", any more than you would consider 10k towing in a Silverado a "weakness". It's a small victory for the domestics, but the IIHS is a tougher test, and I will wait for the other shoe to drop before making any conclusions.

    Crash tests are the last thing full-size buyers look at. If you get hurt in a crash in one of these things, you are the problem, probably not wearing your belt. :sick:

    I'm confident the Ram will offer some modified 6.1 Hemi with 400HP. Ford will have to raise their game.

    I've seen tests where the Tundra beats Ram and F-150 by 2 seconds, 0-60. That's HUGE, especially on a test drive! They must feel like glaciers in comparison.

    Toyota's job, over the next 18 months, is to create enough buzz to get domestic buyers in to at least try the truck. Toyota needs to get to 200k by the end of next year.

    Even when Ford, GM, and Dodge bring more power, do you think they can be that much quicker than 6.0 to 60 MPH? It's hard just to get that much power down for a empty truck! The Tundra powertrain will be competitive, even 3-4 years from now, it is that good.

    Toyota has other cards up their sleeve. It's not over. Not by a long shot.

    DrFill
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    kdh you seem to be very selective in your choice of numbers. In my previous post I used the WORST case for each vehicle - 10% vs. 20% risk of injury - in order to be conservative. However, for some reason you chose 10% vs. 11% - the WORST case for the GM vs. the BEST case for the Tundra. Now, why would you do that??? Let me guess...perhaps to put the WORST spin on the Silverado vs. the BEST possible spin on the Tundra? If that makes you feel better about the test results, well, golly, who are we to argue with your innermost need to do that?

    We both see the relative weakness of such a % comparison. I did intentionally choose the best case scenario of the 5 star vs 4 star ratings becauase you on the other hand chose the worst case scenario. Absent any other criteria and specificity both could be accurate....or anything in between.

    But we are not in disagreement on any of the other points above.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 21,386
    Re safety tests:

    I've watched posters in past (not anyone here) wave a 5 star test as making their favorite foreign brand so much better than the other brands with 4 stars.

    With the Tundra it's reversed and now the 4 star test doesn't make that much difference some say.

    Actually it's only one indicator. It's the rest of the integrity and design that's important, not just the ability to design for that one known conditions crash test.

    So just be sure not to get in a crash that uses the weak points in the design; only get into crashes that you can survive. Obviously that's a dumb statement on my part. But it's meant to point out that a 4 or 5 star test only counts if the crash you are involved in meets that particular strong point. I've seen too many cars dissected into little parts in accidents I've been by for crash tests results to affect me as much as careful, defensive driving on my part will help.

    2015 Cruze 2LT, 2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT

  • geo9geo9 Posts: 739
    WOW! Checking aicautosite.com it seems the 07 tunras
    sales of the redesigned model is NOT a hit with consumers.
    Could it be price? design? If not what?

    GM is going gangbusters with its new models sales are up
    over 10,000 units over last year on the Silverado alone
    but toyota is down almost 5000 units in 07 vs. 06

    tundra sales feb 07 9669 jan. 07 10,566
    ytd 07 15,990 ytd 06 20,025

    I guess extra airbags, bigger tow ratings and better
    1/4 mile ETs do NOT make a truck popular or a sales hit!

    Will the tundra outsell last years weak figures?

    Even if toyotas new "wondertruck" continues to sell poorly
    I doubt it will soon to be a orphan like the honda ridgeline
    with its paultry 7000 units sold YTD........... :lemon:
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Actually here in these forums I've generally put down the NHTSA tests as being outdated and not giving an real information other than a 'Pass/Fail'.

    The Frontal tests are only done at 35 mph and are full head-on tests. Essentially they test the airbags and seatbelts.
    The Side Crash test ( when done !!! ) use an outdated ( by the NHTSA's own admission ) methodology that give no valid information.
    There is no Rear Crash test at all.

    All of these are 'for guidance only'.

    The IIHS is the pitbull of the Insurance Industry. It's job is to evaluate specific vehicles to show it's principals where they might have to pay large claims, i.e. real world real money losses. This is why you will never see a NHTSA official in public recommending one vehicle over another or advising the public to avoid certain vehicles ( 2001 F150 ). That's not the government's job but it is the job of the IIHS. They are there to evaluate risk and losses to the insurance companies. The insurance companies don't want to have to pay money for claims when people ride in vehicles like the Heritage F150.

    So the IIHS tests more criteria and they do it in more difficult situations.
    The Frontal Crash is done at a 40% offset @ 40 mph. This more accurately describes a typical accident and it tries to tear the vehicle apart while throwing the dummies around front/back left/right more than the NHTSA test.
    The Side Crash test is far more difficult. The sled used is designed to emulate an SUV or truck front end crashing through the glass next to a driver's head.
    The Rear Crash test is not even done by the US Govt. It measures the ability of the seats and restraints to minimize whiplash injuries. This is very new an most vehicles fail the test miserably or are at best mediocre. A few are 'Good'.

    For all my own vehicles I give a 90% weighting to the IIHS testing and a 10% Pass/Fail to the NHTSA testing.
  • pmuscepmusce Posts: 132
    "I wouldn't consider a 4-star test a "weakness", any more than you would consider 10k towing in a Silverado a "weakness". It's a small victory for the domestics, but the IIHS is a tougher test, and I will wait for the other shoe to drop before making any conclusions."

    Why don't you consider it a weakness when all the major competition is 5-stars? As for towing, a 2500 HD Silverado with the 6.0 V8 will tow more than Tundra (up to 12,900 lbs), so you are right, I don't consider it a weakness. The 2500 HD Silverado's equipped with the 6.0 V8 have a 6-speed automatic as well. This is the kind of truck anyone should use to tow a 10,000 pound trailer.

    "Even when Ford, GM, and Dodge bring more power, do you think they can be that much quicker than 6.0 to 60 MPH? It's hard just to get that much power down for a empty truck! The Tundra powertrain will be competitive, even 3-4 years from now, it is that good."

    Your statement is correct. The point I was trying to make is Toyota is pushing the power/towing numbers card with this truck hard and that advantage will disappear very soon. They better start working on other areas of their truck (crash test results, panel gaps, interior quality, HD versions, Diesels, etc) because they are not the leader (or not even a player) in these areas. As well, I don't know if Toyota is planning a hybrid version of the Tundra, but their will be a dual mode hybrid Silverado in 2009 model year.
  • beliasbelias Posts: 316
    geo9,
    You might want to re-check those numbers... 07 Tundras weren't even available for January, so whatever sales numbers were quoted there were likely for the 06 models. It is just too early to tell how sales are going for the Tundra yet since demand is outstripping supply and dealers still aren't stocked with the trucks. Heck the CM has barely arrived at some dealerships. I'd wait until at least June or July to see any kind of real numbers with consistancy.
    As for the Silverado, yes, they should be very happy with their sales numbers! But it has been available at dealerships almost 6 months earlier than the Tundra so it is being produced in sufficient numbers to meet demand. Again, it is interesting to see in particular that the Silverado eclipsed the F150 for sales in February for the first time. I'm sure Ford isn't too happy with that!!
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    GM guys WANT the Tundra to be considered low quality, and NOW panel gaps are important.

    Toyota, and the Tundra, will get the benefit of the doubt on quality.

    Nobody cared about panel gaps for the last 50 years. Now it's an issue when GM finally tries to build the truck right? I'm not saying the GM isn't built well, but selling the GM as better-built is a joke.

    Do I have to buy a 2500 to outdo a Tundra? Is that what you're saying? :surprise:

    DrFill
  • geo9geo9 Posts: 739
    MORE bafflegab huh guys???????????????

    Funny, There are plenty of 07 tundras on the lot here
    in the Syracuse NY area !!!!!!!!! Dealers are even
    discounting them.
    So what if they only became avail. in January?
    Sales in Feb. when they WERE avail. are still down from
    last year ! Unlike GMs JAN. truck sales that are up 24% or so.
    Not to mention this figure is only 1/2 tons as the 3/4
    tons were also introduced in Jan. 07 and dealer stock is
    slim....................

    It don't look like the tundra is gonna be that sales hit
    all the NON owners and salesfolks imagined it would be!
  • geo9geo9 Posts: 739
    So NOW the frontal crash tests don't matter huh????
    Sheesh !!!!!!!!! :cry:
  • beliasbelias Posts: 316
    geo9,
    Take it easy man... we're just discussing the trucks... If you want to base your decision based on 1.5 months of sales of a product that has yet to meet demand, by all means, that is your decision to make. Taking a sample of one dealership and making a complete industry-wide generalization about it is just not using good judgement (nor statistics either).
    Yes, the Tundra is being discounted, but that is on regular cab models only. The Silverado is being discounted on every model and is including all kinds of incentives as well. What does that prove? The bigger the discount the worse the vehicle? If that's the case you've already lost the argument.
    But, in case you haven't noticed, Toyota dealerships are not "stocked" with Tundras. Many of them are lucky to have even 4 models in inventory. It isn't like going to a Chevy dealer and seeing 50 to 100 Silverados lined up in a row. They are producing them as fast as they can. Right now one of the problems is that the delivery trucks have to be recalibrated to accept Tundras on the lower levels. They currently can only take 3 Tundras on the top level. So, when you start seeing 50 Tundras on dealership lots, go ahead and make the claim that they are not selling. That would give you more clout. Right now you're not making any credible case. I can argue that new 07 Denali sales are below last year's numbers because they are not even out yet. What the heck does that prove? That the Denali is not going to be the big "sales" leader in luxury trucks that GMC expected it to be? Gimme a break... relax, take a deep breath, and make your case in a few months when plenty of trucks are available...
  • geo9geo9 Posts: 739
    GOLLY ............MORE bafflegab from the non-owners?
    Contrary to your post there are NOT 100s of new GM
    trucks sitting on lots in my area!

    How would I know? I AM A ACTUAL OWNER AND BUYER !
    I am currently on the hunt for a new GMT-900 3/4 ton.
    Since the 2500 GMs are in initial dealer buildup there
    are few to choose from. They are not even listed on GM
    Buypower yet so the only way to check dealer stock is to visit a dealer. And as always the dealers are all clustered together so its easy to see whats on the lot.

    I have eyeballed the local yota dealers and there are
    plenty of tundras to be had !

    Still seems strange while GM fullsize trucks last month
    are up 24% according to a report at pickuptruck.com while
    toyota is down in truck sales.

    The figures over at aicautosite.com don't lie...........

    These initial sales figures for toyota bode plenty of woe
    ahead as far as increased market share in the fullsize
    segment.

    But you are right as far as time will tell !!!!!!!
  • poncho167poncho167 Posts: 1,178
    I read it on autoblog last week.

    Nissan has totally scrapped plans for their 2010 HD truckline with the Navistar International diesel, the same one Ford gets.
  • poncho167poncho167 Posts: 1,178
    All four statement are more than just opinion, they are what people are saying as far as what I am reading from more than one evaluator.

    I have seen/heard more than one auto tester mention the frame problem and the interior being of sub-par.

    The #5 thing I didn't mention but is well recognized is the poor looks. This is not a eye pleasing truck for sure.
  • beliasbelias Posts: 316
    geo9,
    In case you haven't noticed, nobody is talking about 3/4 ton trucks here. The fact that they are in short supply doesn't matter here. I can say with all confidence that there are WAY more Silverados in stock than Tundras, just do an inventory search and you'll see what I'm talking about. It is no comparison... but Toyota will build up inventory as they ramp up manufacturing.
    BTW, you don't need to "own" a truck to count them -- you seem stuck on that point. And I've had and driven all types of trucks and industrial equipment for work, more than most people here that "own" trucks. I've driven everything from grain trucks to tractors to regular 1/2 ton trucks as part of working for the city. I know what towing and hauling involves despite not being a current truck owner and towing dinky boats around claiming that you "know" about what a truck is. I've said it many times on this forum... real trucks are 1 ton trucks, maybe 3/4 ton if you want to be generous.
    So, just hang on a bit and see how sales go for both vehicles.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 21,386
    >Actually here in these forums I've generally put down the NHTSA tests

    Please everyone here understand my comment was not about anyone in this discussion. I was referring to past car discussions and some people had placed huge importance on that onetime test of crashworthiness.

    The only crashworthiness that counts is when you're in one. And I hope none of us are. I almost got creamed at a 4-way stop recently, so it could happen unexpectedly..

    2015 Cruze 2LT, 2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT

  • maple2maple2 Posts: 177
    Can I yawn any louder?

    What happens when Tundra aces the IIHS test, a much harder test?


    How do you suppose the tundra is going to ace the much harder test when it finished last in the "easy" one?
  • obyoneobyone Posts: 8,054
    Wishful thinking perhaps? ;)
  • 1offroader1offroader Posts: 208
    I did intentionally choose the best case scenario of the 5 star vs 4 star ratings becauase you on the other hand chose the worst case scenario.

    kdh, please be HONEST, that's not too much to ask. You DID NOT choose the best case for the Silverado, only the WORST case (10%). You did, however, choose the best case for the Tundra (11%), and then made your comparison.

    If you were honest and chose the BEST case for both trucks, it would be 11% (Tundra) vs. 1% (Silverado).

    I chose the WORST case for each truck because it's a conservative approach and I believe in planning for the worst. Then, if things turn out better I'm happily surprised.

    Once you admit your statistical sleight-of-hand we can move on, OK?

    That's the beauty of forums such as this - it's easy to go back and fact-check all posts.

    1offroader
  • pmuscepmusce Posts: 132
    "Nobody cared about panel gaps for the last 50 years. Now it's an issue when GM finally tries to build the truck right? I'm not saying the GM isn't built well, but selling the GM as better-built is a joke."

    The bar gets raised every time a new full size is introduced. Panel gaps have been shrinking for decades now in all segments. 400 horse power and 10,000+ pound towing in a 1/2 ton were not important in the last 50 years either, but they are today. Standards change for all aspects of these vehicles.

    I've been in both the Tundra and Silverado and I can say confidently that with respect to fit and finish, the Silverado beats the Tundra hands down. Go slam the tailgate on a GMT900 and then do the same on a Tundra and you will see what I mean.

    "Do I have to buy a 2500 to outdo a Tundra? Is that what you're saying?"

    No. What I said was if I was to tow a 10,000 pound trailer, I would use a 2500. I would never buy a half ton to tow that kind of weight. 2500's are made for this kind of work and any 1/2 ton pales in comparison to them.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    I'll slam the tailgate of the GM. I've already done so with the Tundra, and it is wonderfully damped and easy to use.

    You go to one of the many towing demos Toyota is running for the Tundra, and tell me if the Tundra is made to tow 10k.

    Deal? :blush:

    DrFill
  • catamcatam Posts: 331
    Missed the point.

    The Tundra is rated to tow in excess of 10K lbs. as are the other half tons. (Only when properly equipped of course for all)

    The point that was being made is towing 10K pounds reliably, safely, and consistently is going to be a problem for any of these trucks.

    Most people that are smart about choosing a tow vehicle choose one that has a rating at least 20% higher that the load being towed. That gives you some insurance that once your loaded with people, gear, food, fuel, etc. you wont be overloaded.

    If I own a 10K lb. towable I am going to own at least a 3/4 ton truck to tow it. A quick look at the market would suggest most buyers would agree with this philosophy.

    If I own an 8K towable I would probably be happy with a 1/2 ton.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    I stand corrected. Thanks for pointing out the misstatement.
  • geo9geo9 Posts: 739
    YAWN !!!!!!!!!!!!

    More bafflegab here is not needed from a NON owner/buyer !
    Since I an a ACTUAL BUYER and not a armchair quarterback its possible I am the one who actually KNOWS
    whats on the lot NOW, TODAY !

    But sure its a CONSPIRACY from PUTC, Autosite, Edmunds etc.
    showing that the "wondertruck" sales are POOR not to
    mention LOWER than last years sales figures !

    Check the toyota online site for actual stock on the ground
    TODAY at any dealer in zipcode 13208 ! PLENTY of 07
    tundras to choose from.
    Sure there are MORE GMs at dealers. Its NO secret that GM
    has 4 or so factories pumping them out!

    But I suppose when you sell a 100k trucks vs. 1 MILLION
    (fullsizers) per year...........

    I know that the excuses will fly here later this year
    when the tundra barely cracks the 100k mark.......

    Is there a ACTUAL OWNER posting on this forum? Or do we
    have just salesfolks and wannabe tundra folks posting
    here.........

    NO WAIT !!!!! Question answered............ :cry:
  • tmsusatmsusa Posts: 81
    "Been gone a few days, just caught up with the front crash test results. That has got to be incredibly disappointing to Toyota Co. and Tundra owners."
    ___________________________________________________________

    You bet we're disappointed. Especially since data from our internal crash test has consistently reflected a five/five rating as outlined by NHTSA criteria. So, it is a surprise to us that we received a four/four star rating.

    We're currently reviewing our internal data and the NHTSA data to see what can be done in the future.

    BTW, our highest volume Double Cab model and the CrewMax model have not yet been tested by NHTSA.

    We can tell you this--> Tundra has the highest level of standard safety equipment in the class, including:

    Vehicle Stability Control
    Active Traction Control
    Anti-lock brakes with Electronic Brake Force and Brake
    Roll-sensing side curtain airbags.

    Watch for additional info from tms usa as soon as it is available.
    __________________
  • blufz1blufz1 Posts: 2,045
    I am sure it's no flop. They just have to ramp up the production. It is interesting that the Tundra has hit the truck market at what I think is the high water mark of truck sales in the U.S. I think these truck makers will be fighting tooth and nail in a flat to possibly shrinking market for full sized trucks as gasoline prices continue to rise. Buyers should be able to get some great buys in the next few years.
  • pmuscepmusce Posts: 132
    So just because they show you a Tundra towing a 10K trailer in a parking lot, that means that its the best choice to tow 10K over the long haul? The 1/2 ton Silverado can also tow a 10k trailer but neither of these are ideal for this type of load. I don't need any company to demo what their vehicles can tow. If I'm spending my money on a truck and one of my requirements is the ability to tow a 10k trailer on a regular basis (not in a parking lot for a demonstration), a 1/2 ton pickup would not even be on my list of considerations.
This discussion has been closed.