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BMW 5-Series Wagon 2004 Redesign
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If I were to spend this much money, I rather go for an Audi A8.
By the way, there have been disparaging remarks about E60 looking like a Pontiac. Has anyone seen pics of the 04 GTO? Stare it straight in the eyes and try to figure out what you see. Fact is, the Pontiac division outclassed BMW with the sketchpad on this one. Yeah, the total package is still kiddie-car callow and a bit pudgy, but I see signs of the Americans comin' to their senses first on the design front. God helps us with quality though.
On a scale of one to ten...
Audi A: 9.01
E39: 9
04 GTO: 8
E60: 2
Am not kidding. Had the E60 exterior come out of the mold looking like the 04 GTO I would have waited to buy it.
Found it interesting that in the latest issue of Consumer Reports (Oct/03, p. 22), they describe the upcoming GTO this way: "derived from an existing Australian model, the Holden Monaro, which in turn uses A MODIFIED VERSION OF THE DISCONTINUED CADILLAC CATERA'S PLATFORM." (emphasis added) The Catera had used a modified platform of an old Opel design. GTO likely has a pretty archaic underlying platform. And it lacks some important things like decent safety equipment (no side airbags) and decent tires (it is projected to ride on some pretty smallish tires).
Only time will tell. Way too soon to draw any firm conclusions.
Appearance, obviously, is totally different from internal anatomy. Trust me, I know how to separate the two and put both in perspective.
This is how I make my family-car buying decision:
1 - reliability/safety
2 - performance
3 - looks
And do I need to remind you that I own a BMW, not a Pontiac? Do you think I'm running to cash in my 530 for a GTO? Haven't had an American car since the early 70s. They have a lot of provin' to do before I buy one. Period.
Now if you could retract your cart-before-the-horse deal, I would thank you.
On a scale of one to ten...
Audi A: 9.01
E39: 9
04 GTO: 8
E60: 2"
I capitalized the words "total package". To me, that includes a ton more than just exterior styling. And "design" is more than just appearance. If all you are commenting on is exterior styling, then so be it.
If that, then wondering about the "8" for the GTO. Its exterior styling has been heavily savaged by GTO loyalists and others for being bland. Pontiac is already talking about future major exterior styling changes (e.g., hood scoops) to overcome the criticism.
Seems like the Pontiac and GTO communities might give it a "5". Nice try that needs a lot of quick improvement.
Some of the pictures of the E60 make the car look hideously ugly, I agree, but I checked out a video of the E60 on BMW's website, and really, in dark colors that hide the lines, it looks aggressive and sharp. I also happen to love the new interior, and as a Mac fan, think the iDrive is pretty cool (reminds me of the iEverything available for my iBook).
Now if only Bangle would fix the 7-series trunk (in the works, I hear) and give the Z4 a major facelift, particularly the sides, I think BMW would be onto something fresh and interesting.
Anyway, I can see how iDrive appeals to certain people. Personally, I think it’s a step back ergonomically in spite of what BMW wants us to believe. And after working all day gawking at a computer monitor, I appreciate relief from it in the car. Will it catch on? Would not surprise me either way, whether it flourished or it failed. Rapidly changing digital technology (everything is old after a week) could make it problematic as a fixture in cars.
With regard to the 8 on GTO exterior style, it's only my opinion, and I really meant it to be seen in context of the 2 which I gave E60. Haven't figured out what to give the GTO interior yet. I kind of like it, hints of the Nissan Z, but have to reckon with that fruit loops color deal they have going on. I think the colors work on the upholstery, but is just too much on the dash elements.
As for the iDrive, your point is well-taken. BMW's website confirms that a Voice Recognition system will be available on the 5-series, and it will operate many navigation, communication and iDrive functions. So, apparently the next generation of technology is going into Bimmers soon, although it will coexist with the iDrive, not replace it, at least initially. Having never used iDrive, I can't say whether it's a step backwards. If there is not a simple button to change radio stations on the radio, then iDrive is cumbersome I'd agree. Removing clutter on the dashboard seems like a good thing to me, because I like having a clean, simple cockpit.
I've been long-time subscriber to C&D, R&T, MT, Automobile, and AW. Diligently read every issue. I've closely followed the GTO saga for some time. I may buy a 2nd or 3rd model year GTO. I've seen numerous complaint letters from readers and styling comments by press writers in most of these regarding GTO. These comments seem to fall into two categories: (1) too bland or (2) fails to adequately follow historical Pontiac and/or GTO styling cues.
If Pontiac is so satisfied, with the styling, why are they going to add hood scoop so soon? [They got a zillion complaints from public on this issue.]
I think people should wait to complain too much about styling until they see one in the flesh and can rub their hands on the sheet metal. I had some doubts about the Z4's pictures, but when a neighbor of mine bought one and I sat in it, the thing is gorgeous! Z4 has taken a ton of unfair and undeserved styling hits from all sides.
Sorry if I'm prone to complaining about E60 but since I have no control over it I find it hard being constructive.
The first shot I saw of the Z4 was the 3/4 frontal. I was ready to buy it. The front is very fluid. Too bad E60 doesn’t have the same theme as the Z4 headlamps. Then, I really liked what they did on the sides. I find those asymmetrical swaths to be the most creative and interesting thing BMW ever did with the palette knife. In my opinion it works in perfect harmony with the conventional front. Good balance between smooth and sharp, straight and curved.
Then upon seeing the derriere it all went out the window. Where in God’s name did they come up with that foreshortened butt? REALLY disproportionate. And that phony tonneau look of the trunk lip is a caricature of the Miata. The shape of the tail lamps look like a Toucan’s beak. Not creative. Not pleasing. Bad, bad, bad design.
Bottom line, they overdesigned the Z4. It’s schizophrenic. There are three separate looks--the front, the sides, and the back. The net effect is visual noise. Had they been more conventional with the rear as they were with the front, it would have elegantly framed the Picasso-like touches on the side panels and they might have had a winner for the ages. But no, they were hellbent on being different. Plain ol’ wreckless. Take every spice in the rack and throw it into the sauce. Does not do the trick.
Exterior aside, I concur with your impression of the interior.
With regard to the GTO. What many people call bland, I call subtle. If they want to put a scoop on it, it’s because the kids are crying for candy. Had the E60 front looked like the GTO, the way it probably should have, you would have heard considerably less moaning from people in this discussion group.
-juice
BMW keeps coming up with excuses. "Sorry the photos are so ugly, wait until you see it, the initial shock will die down and it will be slightly less ugly then".
The 7 looks even worse in person, you see the proportions of the huncback. *EEK*
The Z4 looks slightly better in person, but only slightly. The front doesn't match the back. The front is droopy. Looks like the rear had a face-lift and the front didn't.
What cars look ugly in photos but beautiful in person?
-juice
Safety equipment, bumpers, need for low CD, etc. impose certain limitations.
Most Audis, too, though the new A4 has less character than the old one.
Mercedes look better than Bimmers virtually across the board now. I'd have said the exact opposite a decade ago.
To be a "classic" is a very high standard, I'm talking about merely attractive cars.
-juice
With regard to only BMW, I liked all 6 series except the new one on the horizon (although I think it's the best looking of the new-bangled Barnum & Bailey cars). I also liked the first two generation 7s. Never really liked any of the 5s with the exception of E39.
I thought the 2002 was clunky looking, but what the hell, I was kid coming out of the muscle-car era. Holds a special place though since that was the car that took my BMW virginity and introduced me to it all. Elevated me to that place where only we in these bimmer forums, and many of the other 1.5% BMW market share owners truly know about.
The baroque angel? That's an entirely different epoch. History is long and our lives are short. I'm not sure we can make complete sense out of style and culture over the real long haul when it comes to cars.
BTW, there's a great family photo out there somewhere in the ether with every generation 5 lined up including E60 (the latter is stripped in). The sophistication and "absolute rightness" of E39 hits home in my opinion. In the annals of the 5, it will be considered special for years to come. I'll post the link if I can find it again.
There are only a few mass-produced Detroit cars I truly love designed after 1970. Love the '71-'73 Mustang Mach 1. (See Sean Connery, playing James Bond, drive one in "Diamonds Are Forever.) Love the '74-'77 AMC Matador coupe (See Roger Moore, playing James Bond, drive and fly one in "The Man With the Golden Gun.) I love fastbacks. '81-'83 Chrysler Imperial coupe.
Not a lot of classic foreign mass-produced cars post-1970, either. E24 BMW 6 Series! BMW 8 Series. (I think the 8 is gorgeous.) MB 6.9 SEL. Jag XJ coupe ('75-'77). Triumph TR-8. First Mazda RX-7.
Too bad cars post-1970 can't have the beauty of the 1960s. Too many beautiful cars in the 1960s. Toyota 2000GT, Jag E-type, Jag Mark X/MG 420, original Buick Riviera (sp?), Mustang, Camaro, Javelin, etc. All the big 2-door full-size fastbacks. Love the big 2-door Chrysler Imperial ('69-'73). Chrysler Superbirds.
1970 Plymouth Barracuda/Dodge Challanger - I drooled the first time I saw one and still do today
Aston DB7 - not mass produced but still too stunning to be left out
E39 - not playing favorites but I really think that it will still turn heads in 20yrs
My first car was a red 65 Impala SS with... get this... 3-speed manual on the column. Eventually had it converted to a Hearst on the floor. Loved it. However, I had somewhat of an inferiority complex since it only had the 283... wanted that 396. Has anything changed? Nah. Here I am with 530 in hand... 911 and M5 on the brain. That’s gonna happen soon enough. Figuring how it will fit into the family situation.
Onto to the Karmikan post. When we talk exotics, that’s where the near-perfect scores lie in style design. Wish the rank-and-file car designers would study them more. That Aston is up there Karmikan... REAL tight design. Before I croak I have to do a one- or two-year stint with either an Aston or Lamborghini. Will deal with the disparity in style when I get there. Conventional vs Radical. At the moment... leaning towards the bull... the 04 Gallardo slays me. I have a small problem with the wheels but think I can handle it. Curious how this came out under Audi tutelage. Considering Audi styling directions also, I would have to guess that some decision maker at Audi has his act together. BMW take note please... I'm beggin' you.
Driving dynamics were said to be greatly improved over the E39 but as Test Drive is a sponsored show it's hard to see them saying otherwise.
First off: it looks better in person, really. It has the same visual impacts on me as when I first saw the E39/1997 model and back then I was driving a 1990 535i - progressively different but a step forward in the right direction nevertheless.
The car looks(and is) slightly bigger than the E39. The front face hints a bit of Pontiac(arggh!) but taken as a whole, it's unmistakenly BMW and an evolution of the E39.
The back is much much better done than the 7. No hunchback, just a well-integrated trunk lid with the trunk itself. In fact, it reminds me of my E39 more so than the front. The tailights are angled just a tiny bit but not enough to be offensive. The cut-out for the tailpipe was the only complaint I have (as did the Autombile mag).
The car looks good from every angle. The concave/convex of the hood/door panels were very very subtle and definitely less so than the Z4. But against good (spot)lighting, you can make out the crossover. I like them though.
Since the doors were locked, I could only peeked inside. The car had black leather interior and was an AT. The interior material used looks rich (as always).
All told, I don't have an issue with the exterior so what remains is a test drive and a feel of the interior...
M
Like the Z4, my reservations for the Z4/E60 were gone the minute I saw them.
But unlike the MB E series which is medium-size C with S being the large-size, the 5 series is out there on its own, holding its own in its class. The reason I bringing MB in is I see from your profile you're a big MB fan. I was a MB fan too and was cross-shopping BMW/MB until 1996 when the C/E/S all seems to be deflated/inflated copy of each other. Even more so today. But today, the BMW 3/5(E60)/7 are each visually different and IMO better designed.
Next year, I might be in the market to replace my E39 and the E60 wins me over once again (over a MB E500/320) like it did in 1997. Looks like I'll never end up with an E.
Edit: This post is just a casual friendly conversation and in no way meant to ding MB or create a BMW vs MB sub-thread.
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No problem bringing up MB and BMW as I like them both. The E-Class and 5-Series are appreciated by many people for different reasons...mainly luxury for the E and sport for the 5. I see what you're saying about Mercedes' design, but BMW is doing pretty much the same thing with the 5, it being just a toned down version of the 7. I don't blame Mercedes for sticking with what works. The E-Class is still the most popular car in the class, both here and in Europe.
M
The posts from people who have previously said that the car looks better in real life were correct. The car looks sort of ok, nothing special or striking but not as ugly as in the pics I've seen. The interior is the opposite IMO, it looks way better in pics than when you actually sit in it. I wasn't impressed at all.
The most telling thing was the reaction of other people, many of whom were not "car people" and hadn't seen the car before. The general impression was one of ambivalence. I heard "like a Buick inside" a couple of times and several "I prefer mine" comments. Lots of furrowed brows but no "goo goo eyes" reactions.
Good stuff - big trunk, more rear seat room and real cupholders (although they're both on the passenger side of the dash!).
If the reaction of the 400 people at this event is any indication, BMW may have a minor flop on their hands. I smell re-design in a couple of years.