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I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today!

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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,313

    A lot to digest there.

    lol yeah I posted a bit. I wanted to get all the images in one session, and didn't want to hold on to them.

    Speaking of the Corolla liftback, note the fine print in the ad - pictured car is not the low priced car, and I bet a base Corolla then was very base indeed.
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    MichaellMichaell Moderator Posts: 243,944
    I also noticed that these were not the type of leases we're used to seeing today - the customer is responsible for the difference between the residual value and the market value (or words to that effect)

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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,313
    Michaell said:

    I also noticed that these were not the type of leases we're used to seeing today - the customer is responsible for the difference between the residual value and the market value (or words to that effect)

    I noticed that too. I wonder if high inflation between then and lease end (1982-83) helped with that.
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    MichaellMichaell Moderator Posts: 243,944
    fintail said:

    Michaell said:

    I also noticed that these were not the type of leases we're used to seeing today - the customer is responsible for the difference between the residual value and the market value (or words to that effect)

    I noticed that too. I wonder if high inflation between then and lease end (1982-83) helped with that.
    Yeah, that makes sense. But, weren't these open ended leases (whereas we now have closed ended leases)?

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    stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,862
    making them an open end lease. I have never seen one of those.

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    kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 240,907
    Those are open-end leases. The lessee is responsible for any shortfall between residual and ACV. 👀

    Haven’t seen one of those since the mid-90s.

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    stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,862
    also completely wipes out the reason to lease.

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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,313
    Michaell said:

    fintail said:

    Michaell said:

    I also noticed that these were not the type of leases we're used to seeing today - the customer is responsible for the difference between the residual value and the market value (or words to that effect)

    I noticed that too. I wonder if high inflation between then and lease end (1982-83) helped with that.
    Yeah, that makes sense. But, weren't these open ended leases (whereas we now have closed ended leases)?
    Yep. I was thinking MB leases then must have been a trainwreck, but I know the brand had huge resale value at the time, so maybe not as bad as it could be - unlike in modern days with subsidized residuals.
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    tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 16,024
    edited January 2023

    Old ads are great. Thanks for posting.

    No luck on the Caddy. Dealer says it is in storage.

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    ab348ab348 Member Posts: 19,219
    I'll go visit Williams GMC to check out that sweet '79 4x4 short bed pickup - sounds like the rig Rocky drove on Rockford. While I'm there I'll give the '79 Caballero a look-see too. Then I'll swing over to Barton Olds valley location to see if they might swing a good deal on that '71 4-4-2 - can't imagine anyone would want one of those given where gas prices were going. It looks like the area had an ample supply of atomic cockroach Datsun F-10s. Those were pretty resistant to sales.

    Speaking of Rockford Files, seeing the name Joanne Nail on the first page banner rang a bell. She played a damsel in distress in one of the episodes.

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    andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,742
    Wow, here's one of the stranger automotive comparisons I've seen over the years...
    This popped up in the Malaise Motors page on Facebook.

    Now I'll go on record as saying I like the '81-87 Grand Prix alot. But comparing it to a Z is just insane. It even reeks a bit of desperation. Either that, or they thought car buyers really were that naive.
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    ab348ab348 Member Posts: 19,219
    Well, I could see a guy like I was back then, in my '20s, just starting to make some money, and wanting a flashy-looking car, maybe considering an '81 GP along with something like a Z-car or the like. But the engines the GP offered would have taken that off the table pretty quickly. 3.8 V6 or 4.3L V8 were the only non-diesel choices. No thanks.

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    uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,204
    edited January 2023
    I wasn't a fan then, nor now, of the 'Z'. Plasticky trim and bland inside, despite the marvelous driving I always heard about.

    That is a particularly attractive Grand Prix to my eyes, but agree on the engines being lame for '81 for power, other than the Turbo available in the Regal and Monte Carlo.

    As always, they photographed a car for an ad without the optional body side molding probably 90% of the cars had. Even GM knew the cars looked better without them.

    I worked with a guy who was actually two years older than me, who rolled his eyes when I bought a new '81 Monte Carlo with 267 V8. I wanted some size and a useable trunk and back seat. He bought a Scirocco S which was within $100 of my Monte IIRC. He lived in the same apartment building as me and another guy at work and I hated when he drove and I had to ride in the back seat, LOL. He hated my Monte and I used to chuckle at his re.: the one windshield wiper and how the instrument panel waved at you when you pulled away from a stop.
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    tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 16,024

    The Grand Prix was always the slowest seller of all the G bodies, right? It had to be due to no performance option. If you think about it, it made no sense. Pontiac was to be the sporty division and the GP certainly wasn’t.

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    imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,199
    tjc78 said:

    Old ads are great. Thanks for posting.

    No luck on the Caddy. Dealer says it is in storage.

    I assume their "heated storage building" has DOORS through which someone may enter, open the glovebox, drivers door, or trunk of the Caddy to look at the RPO sticker where the color is shown at the bottom probably as two codes, one for the lower body and one for the roof padding?

    The car is owned by the dealer. I thought it might be on consignment for sale. They do lie about its mileage in the ad. It's 39339 mi as of June 2022.

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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,313
    andre1969 said:

    Wow, here's one of the stranger automotive comparisons I've seen over the years...
    This popped up in the Malaise Motors page on Facebook.

    Now I'll go on record as saying I like the '81-87 Grand Prix alot. But comparing it to a Z is just insane. It even reeks a bit of desperation. Either that, or they thought car buyers really were that naive.


    More Pontiac GknowHow To The Gallon :)

    If I wanted a flashhy/"sporty" G-body, I would option up a T-top Monte Carlo (even without the SS). They should have at least spec'd the GP on something other than wire caps.
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    ab348ab348 Member Posts: 19,219
    If the regular '81 GP wasn't to your liking, maybe the Americana edition would be more to your taste!

    http://www.oldcarbrochures.com/static/NA/Pontiac/1981 Pontiac/1981 Pontiac Grand Prix Americana Folder/index1.html

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    tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 16,024

    So let’s start a discussion while we are on G-bodies.

    Aside from a Grand National or Hurst Olds… what G-body you buying and how is it equipped?

    I’ll go first -

    Late run Regal Limited, 307, aluminum wheels, digital dash in black or charcoal over grey.

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    ab348ab348 Member Posts: 19,219
    I think a Monte Carlo SS with the high output 305.

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    kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 240,907
    Is the G-body Monte SS the one that came out with the aerodynamic rear window, after a year or two? ‘87?

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    andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,742
    Gimme an '84 or later Grand Prix LJ...at least I think that's what they called the trim level where you got the bucket seats and console shift. Throw some Rally 2 wheels on that sucker. 305-4bbl (even though it's just the relatively mild 150 hp version) 4-speed automatic overdrive. And hell, throw in the T-top roof. I don't think GM ever offered a sunroof in these cars. Oh, and the usual power windows/locks/seat etc.
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    explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,478
    87/88 Olds 442.

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    andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,742
    kyfdx said:

    Is the G-body Monte SS the one that came out with the aerodynamic rear window, after a year or two? ‘87?

    Yep. I'm too lazy to look it up, but I think the SS Aerocoupe was offered in '86 and '87.

    Oddly, the Grand Prix offered a sporty version called the 2+2 in 1986, that also had the aero rear window. Interestingly, it was a unique design, and not shared with the SS. This 2+2 also had a sloped front-end. It also came pretty much fully-equipped with power everything, so its base price was actually higher than a Monte SS, Cutlass 442, or Grand National. But unfortunately, it just used the regular 150 hp 305-4bbl, like what you'd get in a regular Grand Prix, Monte, or Bonneville-G. I heard it had a 3.55:1 axle though, so that might have at least made it a bit quicker than the typical 150 hp 305.

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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,313
    My G would either be a Grand National/GNX or a Monte Carlo with T-tops on checkerboard wheels:



    Or maybe just put checkerboards on a SS, I believe Mexican market SS had these wheels.
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    kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 240,907
    I lived in a small town for 8 months in '87-'88, and my next door neighbor had an SS with the regular rear window, then traded it for an identical new car, but aero..

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    uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,204
    edited January 2023
    I don't care about T-Tops, but this era Monte with these wheels are my favorite of the '78-87 run. I'd even take one with the 4.3L fuel-injected V6, but.....I don't want those stupid, optional body side moldings that are an inch above the bright sill trim!!!!


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    uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,204
    Wife and I went to see "A Man Called Otto" with Tom Hanks today. I liked it, didn't love it....asked you to suspend belief in a few places, and bring your Kleenex.

    They painted grumpy Otto as a lifetime Chevy guy, and his best friend neighbor a lifelong Ford guy. They showed clips from the late '70's through the next thirty years, when one would say to the other, "Come see my new car". Lots of close-ups of Ford and Chevrolet nameplates on various models. When the neighbor bought his first Toyota, that was more than Otto could take!
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    stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,862
    El Camino SS. something V8 and manual trans.

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    uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,204
    edited January 2023
    Just occurred to me, two things. I put "'78-87" above in my post, but there were '88 RWD G-bodies.

    Also, I was initially thinking only of the MonteCarlo/GrandPrix/Regal/Cutlass Supreme, but I forgot the 'lesser' cars.

    HERE is absolutely my choice of one of those bodies:
    CD78MalibuP2

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    sdasda Member Posts: 7,027
    Yesterday while meeting my in-laws to celebrate my father in law’s 88th birthday in Spartanburg, SC at the Kennedy restaurant, which was great, a very clean 73 Caprice 2dr in stock condition that quietly drove by. It was period correct dark metallic brown with a light beige vinyl top, light color matching interior, full wheel covers and clean whitewalls.

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    uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,204
    I always liked the formal top of a '73 Caprice coupe, and the seating was pretty nice.

    Came across this 2,970-mile 1970 Caprice four-door hardtop auction ad. Looks pretty authentic to how I remember them new. I don't particularly love the '70 styling, but it was the last year, IMHO, Chevys had interiors that at times bettered the 'prestige' divisions, and also the last time they had colors like this or 'Black Cherry' which I liked a lot. 1971 brought earth tones and pea green interiors.

    This brocade interior could also be had at standard equipment as well, in the same pattern but in nylon, which wore better but didn't look as nice IMHO.

    Miss colors, in and out, like this. Since it's an auction ad, I can't figure a way to reproduce individual photos here.

    https://www.mecum.com/lots/CA0822-520457/1970-chevrolet-caprice/
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    sdasda Member Posts: 7,027
    edited January 2023
    Very nice Caprice, minimally optioned. I find it curious that power steering, automatic, power brakes were not standard equipment. I wonder if any were produced with a column manual shift, standard steering and brakes. Other than the nice interior not much of a luxury experience so equipped. Correction, power front disc brakes were standard.

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    andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,742
    the big '70 Chevy isn't one of my all time favorites, but I still find it attractive. At least in my eye, it still ends the basic '65-70 design on a high note. It's really sharp in that color, too. As I recall, Derwood had a '70 Impala convertible in that same shade on "Bewitched".
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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,313
    edited January 2023

    I always liked the formal top of a '73 Caprice coupe, and the seating was pretty nice.

    Came across this 2,970-mile 1970 Caprice four-door hardtop auction ad. Looks pretty authentic to how I remember them new. I don't particularly love the '70 styling, but it was the last year, IMHO, Chevys had interiors that at times bettered the 'prestige' divisions, and also the last time they had colors like this or 'Black Cherry' which I liked a lot. 1971 brought earth tones and pea green interiors.

    This brocade interior could also be had at standard equipment as well, in the same pattern but in nylon, which wore better but didn't look as nice IMHO.

    Miss colors, in and out, like this. Since it's an auction ad, I can't figure a way to reproduce individual photos here.

    https://www.mecum.com/lots/CA0822-520457/1970-chevrolet-caprice/

    Great color combo, love the brocade. Was the 400 more of a "towing" engine?

    Every time I see the peaked headlights of a 70 Chevy, I think of this:

    https://youtu.be/D3neQZqFP3M

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    uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,204
    edited January 2023
    I saw that movie in my hometown theater when I was 18. Hard to believe the Chevy was only six years old there.

    I didn't think the '69 big Chevy was a beauty, but I liked the details better than the '70. Those crowned front fenders on the '70 remind me of a '63 Cadillac, and I didn't particularly like the flourish-y "Chevrolet" script they started using on the '70.

    I think (pretty sure) the 400 became standard on the Caprice in '71. When introduced in '70, it was known as a regular-fuel, high-displacement engine. It was two-barrel. I believe it was still considered a 'small block' but I may-well be rusty on that detail.
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    uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,204
    sda, Turbo-Hydramatic and power steering didn't become standard on the GM B-bodies until mid-model-year 1971.

    I was hanging around via my bike at the Chevy dealer then, and I remember seeing cars come in with base prices a few hundred more than I'd seen before, at about the same time Chevy started advertising "Turbo-Hydramatic and Power Steering Now Standard". Well, 'standard' maybe, but reflected in a higher base price.
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    andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,742
    edited January 2023
    That's what I'd heard about the 400...basically a trailer towing engine. In a drag race, it wouldn't get you from 0-60 or down the quarter mile much quicker than a 350, but it would do a lot better when trailer towing.

    And yeah, it was still a smallblock. From what I've heard, it was "siamesed" because of the large bore, and this had both good points and bad points. On the bad side, the water jackets between the cylinders were eliminated, or something to that extent, and that made the car more prone to overheating. But on the plus side, getting rid of those water jackets made the block stronger, so apparently racers liked the engine to use as a basis for building up.

    My great-uncle and great-aunt had a '74 Impala with a 400. Around the 10 year mark, they gave it to a neighbor. He pulled the engine and built it up, but I forget what he put it in. The rest of the car sat around for awhile, until he had it hauled off. It was pretty rusted out, although at a quick glance didn't look too bad, because my uncle had cut out as much of the rusty lower parts as he could, and pop-rivited some aluminum panels that he cut out to more or less fit.

    My relatives had a 30-foot or so Terry trailer that they used the Impala as a tow vehicle for. As far as I know, they never had any issues with the engine, and it was still good enough to serve as a basis for a hot-rod, so I guess it lived up to its reputation.

    At some point, I think they started offering a 4-bbl on the 400, but I'm pretty sure it did start off as 2-bbl only. It was probably around 1973-74, when the 2-bbl, IIRC, got choked down to around 150 hp.

    The 400 was dropped from passenger cars after 1976, but I think it did continue in pickup trucks for a few years.
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    andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,742
    edited January 2023
    Here's a pic of that Bewitched Impala...
    I have a feeling it's the same color as that Caprice, albeit with a black interior. It's probably just lighting, color adjustment, etc that makes them look a bit different.

    Sometimes that look with the fender peaks over the headlights can be hit or miss, in my opinion, but I think this one wears it well. On some models, where you'd have a divider between the headlights, it could sometimes throw off odd reflections that made the front look odd from some angles, like on this '73 Polara...

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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,313

    I saw that movie in my hometown theater when I was 18. Hard to believe the Chevy was only six years old there.

    I didn't think the '69 big Chevy was a beauty, but I liked the details better than the '70. Those crowned front fenders on the '70 remind me of a '63 Cadillac, and I didn't particularly like the flourish-y "Chevrolet" script they started using on the '70.

    I think (pretty sure) the 400 became standard on the Caprice in '71. When introduced in '70, it was known as a regular-fuel, high-displacement engine. It was two-barrel. I believe it was still considered a 'small block' but I may-well be rusty on that detail.

    Fintail is likely a 1961 car by some details I see, so getting long in the tooth by 1976, and looking it via that climate no doubt. One thing that can be said for modern cars, in normal use, they generally age better than in the good old days.
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    sdasda Member Posts: 7,027
    Steve Magnante on his U tube channel just discussed the small block 400 Siamese Dream from a 70 Impala coupe.

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    roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,473
    Another "feature" of the 400 was that it was externally balanced- which complicated interchanging some reciprocating parts with other small blocks.

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    MichaellMichaell Moderator Posts: 243,944
    Just to confirm, the 400 from Chevrolet was different than the 400 offered by Pontiac? Or any other GM division?

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    texasestexases Member Posts: 10,757
    edited January 2023
    Yep. Back then they all had their own blocks. And the 400 SBC was different than the 396 BBC, which from 1970 on was actually a 402, but was called a 396 in some cars, a 'Turbo Jet 400' in others.
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    andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,742
    edited January 2023
    There was one year, 1975, that a few Pontiac 400s ended up in full-sized Oldsmobiles. It was mostly the Delta 88, but I think even a handful of Ninety-Eights ended up with them. I can't remember the exact rationale for that...whether there was a momentary shortage of 455s, or what.

    There also was a genuine Olds 400, which I think was used in 1965-69. I believe it was a big-block, and just a smaller displacement version of the 425, which itself went on to become the 455.

    Buick also had a 400 V8 for a few years. I couldn't remember if it was a small or big-block, so I checked Wikipedia. Looks like it was a big block, and offered from '67-69.
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    stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,862
    I guess if you need a reference to restore a 1970 big Chevy, that would be the car to use.

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    texasestexases Member Posts: 10,757
    edited January 2023
    Fun fact - while most makers had 'small block' and 'big block' engines, all Pontiac V8s used the same basic block, from 287 CID through 455 CID, from 1955 through 1981.
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    ab348ab348 Member Posts: 19,219
    andre1969 said:


    There also was a genuine Olds 400, which I think was used in 1965-69. I believe it was a big-block, and just a smaller displacement version of the 425, which itself went on to become the 455.

    That is true, but they actually had 2 different 400s The ‘65-‘67 400 was a beast of an engine, liked to rev and made lots of power. The ‘68-‘69 400 was a bit of a dog, an underbored 455 with a too-long stroke and it didn’t like to rev at all.

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    texasestexases Member Posts: 10,757
    I've always been amazed at how many different engines GM made in the '60s and '70s, compared to how few engines are needed today. A small 4, a big 4 and maybe a V6/I6, all turbocharged.
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    MichaellMichaell Moderator Posts: 243,944
    texases said:

    I've always been amazed at how many different engines GM made in the '60s and '70s, compared to how few engines are needed today. A small 4, a big 4 and maybe a V6/I6, all turbocharged.

    Kind of reminds you why GM was the king of the automtive industry for all those years, until someone came along and did it better and cheaper.

    Can you imagine how much more they would have dominated if they had consolidated their engineering resources in the 50's, rather than in the 80's?

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    ab348ab348 Member Posts: 19,219
    Michaell said:


    Can you imagine how much more they would have dominated if they had consolidated their engineering resources in the 50's, rather than in the 80's?

    Some would argue that the consolidation they did in the '80s is what led to their downfall. Badge engineering, the same crappy engines in everything, etc etc.

    Back in the day when they had 50%+ market share, they had enough volume to spread the costs of differentiation over a large number of sales. Lots of people thought Olds or Cadillac or Buick made the best engines and chose accordingly. It wasn't just engines either. My Olds buddy decided to restore a '71 4-4-2 that was pretty rusty. The rust around the windshield and rear window was bad enough that the body man told him to find a replacement upper body from a parts car. He found one from a Chevelle that looked like they could use it, and he was surprised to see the inner sheet metal reinforcing structure was nowhere near as robust as what Olds used.

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